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With/Against Consensus & RBs/WRs Adding Mass: Going Deep with Brandon Angelo & Matt Waldman 4.9.26

STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this video and kept the full transcript here for context.

1 hr 4 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Apr 9, 2026
Published
Thu, April 9, 2026
17
Player insights
17
Players mentioned
Topics
Amari RodgersAustin EkelerChris BellCourtland SuttonDe'Von AchaneEli StoveGolden TateJahmyr GibbsJames CookJeremiyah LoveJonah ColemanKenneth GainwellMarvin Harrison Jr.Mike Washington Jr.
Player analysis

Player insights

17

Amari Rodgers

NegativeRole47:03

Brandon Angelo cautions against adding mass to Amari Rodgers because of his reactive movement profile. Rodgers' lateral agility and ability to change direction from lateral to linear are core to his game; adding weight would slow him down and undermine those critical skills, making mass addition counterproductive for his archetype.

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Austin Ekeler

NegativeProjection4:27

Austin Ekeler is cited as an example of the modern NFL running back archetype—smaller, space-oriented backs who excel at outside zone runs and turning the corner with quick initial and early acceleration. This archetype is becoming more prevalent as the game shifts toward more space and 12 personnel usage, and Ekeler is listed alongside Jahmyr Gibbs and Devon Achane as successful NFL examples of this type.

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Chris Bell

NegativeBust30:06

Brandon Angelo is lower than consensus on Chris Bell, viewing him as a roster bubble player for the majority of his career due to multiple compounding concerns. The core issue is archetype mismatch: at 6'2", 220 lbs, Bell's physical profile rarely produces perennial 1000-yard receivers—Angelo can only cite DK Metcalf and AJ Brown as successful examples of this archetype at the primary receiver level. Beyond archetype, Angelo flags durability and injury concerns: Bell had ACL surgery in December with an October return timeline as a day-three pick, creating multi-year setback risk. His weight and deceleration issues are exacerbated by ACL recovery. Angelo frames Bell as simultaneously most afraid to draft and most afraid not to draft—the highs are potential Pro Bowler, the lows are out of the league in 3–4 years—but leans negative on the risk-reward given archetype and injury capital.

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Courtland Sutton

PositiveRole15:45

Brandon Angelo cites Courtland Sutton as a historical example of a receiver who employed serial clap attacking technique but became a solid NFL starter, demonstrating that unconventional catching mechanics do not necessarily preclude a productive NFL career. Sutton's success despite using clap attacking provides precedent for prospects like Skyler Bell who rely on similar mechanics.

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De'Von Achane

NegativeProjection4:27

Devon Achane is cited as an example of the modern NFL running back archetype—smaller, space-oriented backs who excel at outside zone runs and turning the corner with quick initial and early acceleration. This archetype is becoming more prevalent as the game shifts toward more space and 12 personnel usage, and Achane is listed alongside Jahmyr Gibbs and Austin Ekeler as successful NFL examples of this type.

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Eli Stove

PositiveProjection20:25

Brandon Angelo ranks Eli Stove as his tight end one in the 2025 class, believing he's in a different tier than other tight end prospects. Angelo compares Stove to Jordan Reed and emphasizes his ability to make plays in tight coverage while generating separation late in routes, functioning as a security blanket where quarterbacks can throw into tight windows. Despite online criticism about blocking ability, Angelo asserts Stove's blocking is adequate for an every-down tight end role and notes his exceptional athleticism, mobility, strength, and after-the-catch ability.

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Golden Tate

PositiveRole16:48

Brandon Angelo describes Golden Tate as a very good receiver who could catch correctly but often chose not to, preferring unconventional clap attacking technique. Despite this mechanical choice, Tate was a productive number two receiver or slot flanker type, demonstrating that elite talent can overcome suboptimal catching mechanics. Tate is cited as one of four historical exceptions to the rule that serial clap attackers struggle in the NFL.

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Jahmyr Gibbs

NegativeProjection4:27

Jahmyr Gibbs is cited as an example of the modern NFL running back archetype—smaller, space-oriented backs who excel at outside zone runs and turning the corner with quick initial and early acceleration. This archetype is becoming more prevalent as the game shifts toward more space and 12 personnel usage, and Gibbs is listed alongside Devon Achane and Austin Ekeler as successful NFL examples of this type.

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James Cook

NegativeProjection3:42

James Cook is cited as a direct stylistic and trait comparison for De'Mon Clayborn; both are described as similar movers with extreme fluidity and adeptness at creating in the low red zone. Cook is also listed as an example of the modern NFL running back archetype—smaller, space-oriented backs who excel at outside zone runs and turning the corner with quick initial and early acceleration. This archetype is becoming more prevalent as the game shifts toward more space and 12 personnel usage.

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Jeremiyah Love

NegativeProjection8:28

Jeremiah Love is positioned as the presumed class RB1 in Angelo's evaluation; Clayborn is ranked as the most likely alternative if Love does not achieve that status in five years.

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Jonah Coleman

NegativeProjection4:00

Jonah Coleman is identified alongside De'Mon Clayborn as one of the two best low red zone players in the 2026 class. While Coleman and Clayborn generate positive yards and touchdowns in the low red zone through different methods, both are highlighted as elite in this specific skill set.

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Kenneth Gainwell

PositiveValue25:09

Matt Waldman rates Kenny Gainwell as Pittsburgh's best back by a mile last year and projects him to be Tampa's best back this year. Waldman emphasizes the value of versatile backs like Gainwell who can block, receive, and rush. Waldman notes that smaller backs will continue to exploit defensive fronts designed for spread offenses for at least a few more years, particularly against safety-size linebackers. Brandon Angelo uses Gainwell as a comparison archetype for late-round versatile backs, noting Gainwell is not super fast but very good in all aspects of the game, makes good decisions, and endears himself to coaches; Angelo emphasizes these types of players are important in the NFL because they hang around forever, get opportunities, and run with them.

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Marvin Harrison Jr.

PositiveRole17:21

Brandon Angelo identifies Marvin Harrison Sr. as an elite receiver who exclusively uses clap attacking and trapping technique, never catching the ball correctly in film review. Angelo went back and watched highlights to verify and found all highlights were trapping and clapping. Harrison Sr. is cited as the fourth and highest-end historical exception to the rule that serial clap attackers struggle, demonstrating that elite talent can overcome suboptimal mechanics entirely. Angelo notes Harrison Sr. literally channeled Ahmad Rashad's 1970s-era catching approach.

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Mike Washington Jr.

NegativeBust38:38

Brandon Angelo flags Mike Washington Jr. as a major concern due to compounding issues: ball security at one fumble per 51 touches (well below acceptable NFL rates, with few RBs improving from this baseline and still producing) and pad level/contact engagement problems. Washington avoids direct contact, preferring to pivot or turn his back into defenders rather than dropping pads and facing downhill; this inconsistency at the point of contact directly correlates to fumbling issues. At 6'2", his high pad level and open body position expose him to contact, turning him from a potential "bowling ball with butcher knives" into a "bowling ball that's a magnet for contact." Angelo also expresses serious skepticism about Washington Jr.'s viability as a tall, linear-driven RB archetype. The movement tools gap between Washington Jr. and Breece Hall is described as "a Grand Canyon sized gap," with Hall being the only elite all-pro/pro-bowl comparable for this archetype. Angelo concludes it's "really hard to find and see Mike Washington Jr. as the second player of that archetype being super successful." He explicitly states he will never draft Washington Jr., despite loving his physical profile, because Demone Clayborn is "so much better as a player" and "runs laps around" him.

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Myles Montgomery

PositiveSleeper23:10

Brandon Angelo identifies Miles Montgomery of UCF as a potential biggest sleeper of the running back class, ranking him in his third tier (very top of it, close to second tier). At 5'10" 198 lbs, Montgomery excels at pass protection with excellent footwork, punch, and diagnosis of blocks; he processes quickly, reads pre-snap keys effectively, and creates in short yardage with controlled footwork and downhill aggression rather than bouncing plays. Angelo projects Montgomery to reach 5'10" 210 lbs, which should add acceleration and explosion. Angelo emphasizes Montgomery's underrated agility, vision, and ability to dictate contact against larger defenders. Angelo compares him to Kenneth Gainwell as a versatile, decision-making back who may have more juice. Angelo suggests that with modest gains in speed and explosiveness, Montgomery could be the biggest sleeper of the running back class—a late-round or UDFA type who processes the field a tick quicker than defenders.

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Robert Meachem

NegativeBust18:48

Brandon Angelo cites Robert Meachem as a cautionary example of a big, fast, and strong receiver drafted by the Saints who struggled with technique inconsistency. In a game against LSU as a Tennessee receiver, Meachem dropped three or four passes in the first half when attempting optimal catching technique, then reverted to clap attacking, signaling lack of confidence in proper mechanics. This technique inconsistency and mechanical regression foreshadowed NFL struggles, contrasting with elite receivers like Marvin Harrison Sr. and Golden Tate who committed fully to their unconventional approach.

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Skyler Bell

NegativeProjection9:45

Brandon Angelo ranks Skyler Bell in his top five running backs in the class. Angelo emphasizes Bell's speed, explosion, and ability to make difficult contested catches. He highlights a specific curvilinear move at Boston College where Bell executed an exceptionally tight-angle cut at high speed with perfect balance, describing it as potentially the most memorable play from the entire draft class he studied. Angelo and Matt Waldman both place Bell in the late first round to early second round tier, reflecting confidence in his overall skill set. However, Angelo identifies Bell as a serial clap attacker—a receiver who uses a palm-based catching technique rather than fingertip-based technique. While this technique typically correlates with drops due to the rigid palm creating violent recoil, Bell has only four career drops despite his preference for clap attacking, suggesting he can execute the technique effectively despite the mechanical risk. Angelo notes this creates a projection question: whether the technique will become magnified as a problem in the NFL despite Bell's current success with it.

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Full transcript

Episode Transcript

556
0:00That's two weeks there, so I don't I don't blame you if it takes you a second.
0:03>> I know it did it it it might man, but we listen folks um appreciate you guys coming on here to um
0:11going deep and Brandon Angelo, Matt Waldman we're here to uh you know, talk about some players for the 2026 class. We're going to talk
0:19about running backs and wide receivers this week. We got some specific thoughts on players that maybe we're higher on the consensus, lower on the consensus,
0:29who we think might could maybe change their outlooks with some changes to their physical dimensions.
0:35Um and uh then let's see what else. The uh you know, also players from the previous classes that we you know, really shouldn't
0:45forget about at all, you know, so we'll we'll talk about a little bit of everything and I I snuck up on Brandon
0:50with the recording, so like you know, like or like let's go and then I'm talking and I hit it and I didn't
0:57count down, so we're like you know, we're kind of we're we're a little out of it right now.
1:02>> [laughter] >> Yeah, it's like all sides of the preseason.
1:06>> pulling our heads up.
1:08>> [laughter] >> Just getting out of the trenches.
1:11From watching all this film, but um For sure.
1:14>> it's going to be a fun one. I'm excited to obviously just just talk this class broader spectrum and and look at all
1:20this stuff. Well, before we do, tell everybody where they can find your work and because you know, there a lot of people
1:28are big fans of what you do when we when we have the show and talk about the work that you do and we should we should let
1:35people know right off the bat where they can go.
1:37Sure, absolutely. You can find all my stuff on angeloanalysis.com.
1:43Um right now have a lot of my like film evals. They're called the classroom.
1:47It's essentially film cut-ups based on their traits, talking through those what those mean for NFL success failure and then in about two more weeks around the NFL
1:59draft I drop all of the actual grades. What those mean, tiers, and then talk about landing spots as that stuff hits, but
2:09all that stuff's there and I put live it on Twitter, too.
2:12Um so people get like snippets of it. Um but yeah, well, I appreciate it. I just retweeted some today that were some fun
2:19ones and I find you know, at least a couple times a week I'm looking at stuff on his on on Brandon's timeline going,
2:26yeah, that's cool. Let's you know, let's share that and you know, the the type of work that he does is is good and I got
2:32to read some of his De'Mon Clayborn scouting report, which was fun, you know, and and we share he shared a little bit of that behind the scenes,
2:39which was really cool. I enjoyed I enjoyed the way that he went about it and looked at you know, you know, broke it apart. It's good
2:46stuff, so you definitely want to check it out. So yeah, so let's start. So who are um All right, so who are two players? Let's
2:55start with one. Who's a player you're higher on than the consensus running back or wide receiver?
3:01De'Mon Clayborn. There we go.
3:04>> [laughter] >> No, we we we talked we talked about it off air a little bit. Um if you've had a the pleasure of reading the RSP,
3:12you kind of know where Matt stands and uh I'm right there with him. I mean, I have him in the same tier as as guys
3:19like AC Conception, Omar Cooper Jr., guys that will probably be first rounders in the NFL draft or early second.
3:27And I think with Clayborn, he has in my opinion, every requisite skill to be a starting caliber back
3:37and a long-term starter at that. I He reminds me very much of James Cook.
3:42Similar movers, extremely fluid extremely adept at creating in the low red zone.
3:50That's the biggest thing with Clayborn.
3:52He and and Jonah Coleman are the two best low red zone players in this class, very different in how they generate um
4:00generate positive yards there and and turn those into six points, but for Clayborn, it his game is very multi-dimensional, extremely versatile
4:09player, works through contact at a high level, extremely quick in initial and early acceleration, better than you think receiver.
4:18The big thing is the two big things are going to be the size, right? I mean, he's a sub 190-lb back and then also the
4:24ball security, nine fumbles in the last two seasons. So those are obviously two bigger glaring flags for NFL front offices, but I think with the way the position's
4:35trending, you're going to see a lot more De'Mon Clayborn type of backs enter the NFL and make an impact.
4:43Obviously, James Cook.
4:45We have obviously, Jahmyr Gibbs and Devon Achane and Austin Ekeler and list kind of goes on and then next year we'll see guys like Hollywood
4:55Smothers and Isaac Brown join that club.
4:57So I think that's the big deal of the game is being played in obviously more space.
5:03Now we're condensing in a little bit, play more 12 personnel, but those outside zone runs look pretty damn good.
5:09And to run the outside zone on a high level, you have to have a back that's really good initial and early excel,
5:15guys that can turn the corner, and so that's why I think we're seeing kind of an uptick of those type of backs, the
5:21James Cooks of the world um kind of making their headway here. So yeah, I I think Clayborn's that one guy for me that I'm circling and drafting
5:29out of every single one of my fantasy teams cuz I think you'll be able to get him in the second and third round of the
5:33rookie draft pretty easily. Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's you know, the I had James Cook as the comp point
5:39as well. I mean, I had a I do a spectrum, so like if we start from the low end of spectrum, like if he really
5:45disappointed, I'd say he's like a Steve Slaton-like player, but I can't even imagine that. I can't even like I I mean, I can imagine if to write it down
5:53based on body type and based on some skills, but he would have to like I don't want to say bump his head and
5:59forget how to play football, but cuz that's a little too close to home with football, but like you know, Sure.
6:05>> he'd have to maybe he'd have to drink some magic concoction and forget how to play running back.
6:10Um but the players that I have them in the same tier as are Cook and Charlie Garner from way back in the day, who was
6:17a light player who played very physically and I think the reason that I liked those comps is that they also and then same with McCoy and
6:26Marshall Faulk as the guys that if he somehow exceeded the tier he's in and became even better, um he would be
6:34aspiring to be that level of back, which is pretty special. Um but all what a lot of those guys have in common is that
6:43you said the physicality for their size, that they play physical.
6:47When you watch De'Mon Clayborn block, he's one of the few backs I've watched who actually will deliver a punch with good timing. Mhm. Uh and and that's
6:57rare. I don't even see there's some like tight ends that can't do that, you know.
7:02>> he moves defenders off their spot, too.
7:04That's a huge one and I I there's I saw some clips, too.
7:08He's calling out protections. Yes. And and getting upset when they don't they don't get relayed and like that's the stuff, too, is like
7:17the a running back a lot of times is sometimes the co-pilot of the offense.
7:21Yeah.
7:22>> Right? Cuz he's the one that's going to be administering a lot of these blows that keep the quarterback clean.
7:28So that's a huge one, right? Where you have to be a co-pilot in a sense because you're you're the closest one
7:36to the QB, so you have to be able to get a lot of that that's relayed and especially if you're in a loud
7:41environment, you might have to relay that to some of the tackles and you know, the guard, center, whatever.
7:47Um but also make adjustments. You look at James White and Tom Brady is a great example, right? Yeah.
7:52>> Where like those two were in lockstep and James games based on their the communication just between those two.
7:57Yeah.
7:58>> And I think that's really important. The between the ears skills with Clayborn are really high end and his evaluating his field IQ, his cognitive skill set
8:06was something I dove into and just an extremely smart, intelligent, instinctive player that I think will play a long time because he's going to
8:14be so friendly to an offense and to a quarterback and he's going to be that co-pilot and and do some really really
8:21good things, I think. Yeah, I mean, if you if we had posed the question if Jeremiah Love doesn't doesn't become the running back one in
8:32this class in five years from now, who's most likely to be that running back one?
8:38I would probably put De'Mon Clayborn, you know, even though or as he has the most potential to do that, whereas cuz
8:45like I have Emmit Emmit Johnson number two, but they're really separated by a tenth of a point. And Clayborn was my
8:52number one until the fumbles. And he had seven fumbles of those nine, he had seven of them last year. So that's a
9:00Yeah.
9:00>> like a concern, but I but I still the saving grace for him is that for the other three years that he played, he had
9:09high workloads and his fumbles rate was not was good. It was actually good. So when you look at that, you go, was he
9:16playing with an injury? Was he just being too reckless for one year? You know, what was going on there? Was it
9:23just a lapse in judgment with some things? Everyone can have a bad year that way, so if there's three good years
9:29and one bad year, it wasn't you know, I kind of look at that and go, all right, well, I'm keeping an eye out for that
9:34and we got to note it, but it's not like Mike Washington, you know, and like every year Mike was not was not good
9:42with the ball security. So So yeah.
9:45>> All right, so All right, who's someone that I'm higher on Well, Skyler Bell.
9:52Um Skyler Bell I have in my top five and yeah, and I just he's he's a fun player to discuss from
10:03an evaluation standpoint. It can be a scary thing to talk about when you're focused so much on trying to get things
10:10right, but I mean, I'm just trying to I'm trying to get the player right. I'm not really worried about whether I get the ranking
10:17right. So, this is fun. It's not scary.
10:19And it's like, you know, you maybe you know, maybe 16 years ago, I'd probably be scared to scared about this player. Like, I used to be scared when
10:29I'd think about Darren McFadden. I was like, "Oh, man, I'm going to look like an idiot when I talk about Darren
10:34McFadden and not liking him like he's the next coming of the running back god." You you know, but >> No, for sure.
10:41>> You you know, but you kind of once you do this for a while, you kind of you you do it enough, you kind of realize how
10:46the fun part is actually these players.
10:48Um yeah, you know, so Bell, to me, you look at the you look at the speed, you look at the explosion, his ability to
10:57make these difficult contested catches, and this curvilinear move I saw a curvilinear move after I graded him, Brandon, where he was playing Boston College, and I
11:08don't I think he either took a short pass that headed to the left flat, or it was one of those like jet jet sweep
11:14deals. [clears throat] Sure. And he turns the corner, and he gets down field quickly into the flat, and he has to
11:19make this curvilinear move that was so tight of a bend that he had to balance touch through it. I had never seen
11:27anybody bend an angle that tight at high speed in my life. And I was like, "That might be the play I'm going to remember
11:34for the entire draft class that I've studied."
11:38>> He does some cool things, man. He does some really cool things. And I Yeah, I I was I'm right there with you. He's in the
11:44same tier with me as like Concepcion and Cooper Jr. and like Yeah.
11:51>> same like he he's in my opinion, he's a late first round, early second round player. I'm with you. And there's one
11:58exception I want to talk about with you with this is this is kind of the thing that like for me makes it fascinating.
12:06He's a serial clap attacker. So, like, he's that guy that, you know, you you literally for those of you who don't
12:13listen to a ton of podcasts, or you're just checking on this one every once in a while, you may not have heard me
12:17talking about this, or you're new to the show.
12:20You know, you want players catching with one of two types of technique where you with if it's an overhand target arriving
12:27above like your waist, and or even if it's low, but you're bent down, and you're extending away from your arms away from your frame, you want either
12:36this attack that's kind of a web-like thing with your fingertips together, or some people teach it with your hands like, you know, apart like this cuz they
12:45feel like it allows your elbows and arms to be shock absorbers more. I've heard two different ways that people talk about that. But like, you want your
12:55fingertips that at least your thumbs together, so that your fingertips can be the ones that handle the ball because they act as like nice shock absorbers to
13:05the speed and spin of the ball. But when they hit the meat of your hands, it creates a very fast and violent recoil.
13:13Whereas, if they hit your fingertips, the recoil just floats, and you have a better second chance opportunity.
13:19>> Yeah, it's like it's like you're catching a jar. Like, that's what it should be. It should never be A lot of times when you like when we
13:26watch receivers with drops, it's always like they're palm-based drops because the ball the flex off the palm because
13:35the palm is an it can be extremely rigid if the fingers are extended. And so, that's a big one from like a
13:42mechanical standpoint, you see a ton of drops because guys are guys are trying to catch the ball like this. Yeah.
13:49>> And we're going to bounce off that palm a lot, just like you said. I mean, it's it's it's a ton of recoil, but yeah, I
13:56mean, that's a that's a huge one with Bell. You see Concepcion, and there are guys in this class who if they don't clean that up,
14:07are they going to keep getting opportunity? And that's the that's just a valid question.
14:12>> Yeah, and so when you look at Bell, you know, normally I would, you know, with a lot of players, I would look at this and
14:19say, "Well, I can't I can't score him well because he's dropping a lot of balls because he's a serial clap
14:30attacker. Problem is, or the the complication is is he's not dropping a lot of balls as a serial clap attacker.
14:37So, then you have to ask yourself, "Am I going to project that he's not going to that it's going to be a
14:43magnified issue in the NFL because he's doing that?" Now, the the likelihood of it is yes. So, but then the ans- but
14:52then you have to think, "But he's making all these tough plays, and he shows that he can make good technique catches,
15:00and then he but he prefers to clap attack. Like, that's his first mode, but he doesn't drop it when he clap attacked
15:06as often as you would expect. I think he only had four drops this year, or maybe four career drops, something like that.
15:12It's a very small amount what with my tracking, but the thing is is I started, you know, I've often talked about clap attacking.
15:21I said there's only like four players I've seen um that I've you know, since the the late '90s who are clap attackers who
15:29actually had some level of production on a consistent basis. And I'm Every receiver clap attacks, but there's like serial clap attacking that can be a
15:38problem. Like, Quinton Jefferson was a a serial clap attacker, and then he had other problems, too. He's the first one I think of, for sure.
15:45>> Yeah. So, but then like Courtland Sutton, I remember had some serial clap attacking, but he's been a solid NFL starter.
15:54Um And but then I see that it's limited to now two types of targets, high targets above his head, high points, and high and away
16:03targets. And that's what bothers Concepcion. Those are the only targets he really clap attacks the most and drops. The other ones he tends to be
16:11able to hold onto. But Bell, he catches all of them. So, the four exceptions that I've seen over the years, th-
16:18um three of them I graded. Early Doucet, who was, you know, a wide receiver three for the Cardinals during the Fitzgerald-Boldin era. So, he wasn't
16:28anything like special for fantasy, but he played. Um Golden Tate, you know, very good receiver. Um And he could catch it correctly, but he often chose
16:38not to. Um but he was but he was a very productive number two receiver or slot flanker type. Sure. And then the the one
16:49who's, you know, that I joked defies the physics of catching a football is Terry McLaurin. Um who He He He literally
16:57claps on the ball like he's a 1970s wide receiver um in terms of the technique.
17:03Yeah, no, for sure. You know, I mean, some of these great receivers, you watch Steve Largent catch a football sometimes, and you're like, "That would
17:10never fly in the NFL today." And then you think, "Well, maybe it would if Steve Largent were playing in the NFL
17:14today." It's that whole conundrum. But he, you know, McLaurin does this all the time. And then I thought, "Well, what do
17:21these guys have in common that made them successful?" Oh, and the fourth guy, Marvin Harrison Sr. Um who literally channeled like Ahmad Rashad or something
17:30like from 1978. Like, all the time.
17:33Like, I don't I don't think I ever saw him like catch a ball correctly. I went back and watched highlights what like a
17:39few years ago just to make sure I didn't remember. And like all the highlights were trapping and clapping, and I was
17:45just like, "Wow, okay. That's a great high-end example." So, what they had in common is either either or
17:56or it it's either and or situation for them. It's either they clap attacked as their main way of doing things and had few drops, and they were
18:05successful making tough plays with this horrendous technique that we've that you that's suboptimal, or they um
18:16or what was the other one that I would say that they could do they either they either did that as their main way, and it was no other way
18:24they could catch the ball, or it was that they could catch the ball correctly, but um with the optimal technique, but they were so good at
18:33catching it the other way that it didn't matter. Like, they could do both. And the guys who I always saw that were
18:38struggling were the ones who would try to do it with optimal technique, and they would drop the ball enough that they'd just go back to the only way they
18:47knew how. Like, I remember Robert Meachem, he was playing against um LSU one year as a Tennessee receiver um way back in the day. The Saints drafted
18:56Early.
18:57And he was big, fast, and strong, and, you know, they loved him. And I I remember seeing a game in the first
19:02half, tried the optimal technique on everything, and I think he dropped like three or four passes in that half, and then he just went straight back to
19:10trapping everything and clap attacking it. And I was like, "Yeah, that's not good." Like, if you if you know you That
19:18means you lack confidence in being able to do it the right way. And when you look at Bell, he fits those conditions.
19:25So, the fact that his drop rate's low, I look at that and go, I I may be taking a chance on him that high, but because of
19:33his game and because of what he's shown, I just believe that if it's it's you can project him as being the exception to
19:41the rule in this case. And so, yeah, that's that's why he's fascinating because you could see how maybe things get exacerbated early in the NFL, and he
19:50overthinks things, and the clap attacks hurt him and he drops balls early. But I think he's also because he does show a
19:57fundamental sound catch technique at times that that other guys didn't that it won't hurt him as much. I think that he he might have a slight temporary like
20:07lack of confidence or you know because he's slumping a little bit and then he puts it all together and it's not a
20:13problem. For sure.
20:16So who who else do you have that's that's underrated on your on your list of guys?
20:25I'm going to say Eli Stove. Yeah. Okay.
20:29>> I cuz I have my tight end he's my tight end one.
20:32He's in that kind of that same tier of guys like you know Keshawn and like Williams and Boston and Cooper Jr.
20:44I think he's the best tight end in the class. I don't think it's I have him in a different tier than Sedik as well. Um
20:51I think he's kind of like Jordan Reed. Yeah, love it. And I think that that type of players I don't know
20:59if it's I don't know if it's going out of style or in style, >> [laughter] >> cuz you have your Trey McBride's who are
21:06absolutely balling and just having all pro seasons and then you know it's just one of those difficult things where it's like you know the the Zach
21:15Ertz types, right?
21:17Like are those types going to be in in today's league? And for me I think yes. I think he offers you a lot of versatility on offense.
21:28Similar to how we had the same similar conversation. Not I mean the same caliber of Kylen Loveland. Right? Where everyone was like man can Kylen Loveland
21:36block? Like is he Yeah, he can.
21:39>> Yes. And he can well. He just that wasn't what he was tasked with. I don't think Stove is the level of blocker that
21:47Loveland was and his frame doesn't really fit that mold. However, I think he's going to be able to block well enough to be on the field as an every
21:56down tight end and do some really really cool things in offense. I think he's he's awesome.
22:05I'm with you. Like I keep seeing online lately this whole week oh he can't block worth a darn so they're looking at him
22:11like is could he be Mike Evans and could he be an outside receiver and I'm thinking I didn't think he was that bad
22:17as a blocker. I thought he just wasn't he's a move tight end. You know and and so there's some things he can pick up
22:24and get better at but you're not expecting him to be um you know you're not expecting him to to be Tucker Kraft. You you know you're
22:33going to have him actually go out and run routes.
22:36You know so I I like I'm with you. He's my number one too and as well and the way he makes plays in tight coverage
22:44but can also get separation late in a in a route. He can be that security blanket down below where quarterbacks aren't
22:51afraid to throw it into a tight area.
22:53Right. So and then you know we all know what he can do after the catch and he he's very athletic and and and mobility
23:01and strength and that's great stuff.
23:04I'm going to go way off the uh way off the radar here. I love it. Do it.
23:10I love Miles Montgomery of UCF, the Cincinnati back. I I do. I think he's in the same tier. He's in my second he's in
23:18my third tier at the very beginning of it. And it and he's at the top of my third tier which is a
23:25>> Okay. Okay. Yeah. He's very close to my second tier.
23:30He's 5'10 198 and the thing that the thing that he does better than anybody else in this class um is pass protect. Okay. Now I know that's
23:41not a fantasy sexy fantasy thing but he is he can punch. He diagnoses inside outside. Doesn't get fooled very often by anything. He has really good
23:51footwork. He holds up very well as a pass protector um and then when you look at the ball with the ball in his hands
24:02he has a fast processor. Um I thought he was he excelled at reading the keys of what the defense were doing pre-snap and
24:12having an answer for it. He also excelled when things didn't go as blocked early in the play and they didn't and it didn't blow up the play.
24:22He was he had the footwork, the movement along with the um connection to his eyes for him to be able to create in short
24:31yardage in situations where he didn't automatically try to bounce things like if he bounced it it was immediately going downhill from where he
24:39bounced it like within two steps. Like he was someone that could give you he could side step a couple of steps and
24:46then just get right downhill, get his pads low and get under people or through people and he's just at that size that
24:53you could see where all right he's probably going to be 5'10 210 before it's all over with. You know and that might be a little even better
25:02acceleration, a little more explosion with that extra 12 pounds to his frame.
25:08And I already think the agility is underrated, the vision's underrated and he dictates contact. He dictates the terms of contact with just larger
25:18defenders so he's he's a step ahead and and so if he gets just a little faster and a little notably more explosive you
25:27know I think he could be the biggest sleeper of this running back class if not just this there's like two or three
25:33guys I think could be sleepers of the draft class but this is one of those guys that I've like I watched him and I had like a I had a
25:41scout basically was like or a scout from another league asked me like are there any players that you that you can
25:49recommend to me that you like more than most who you think might not even get who are like late round guys or might
25:56not get drafted but you have like early grades on them. And I'm like yeah absolutely and the first one I mentioned
26:02was Miles Montgomery. You know he so we'll see. I mean it's a you never know how it is but the way I
26:09would kind of characterize him is he's kind of um he's a lot like Kenneth Gainwell in just the way that Kenneth
26:17Gainwell you know Gainwell's not super fast but he's very good in all aspects of the game and if you give him a chance
26:25to to play he makes good decisions and and he and he endears himself to coaches and I think Montgomery's kind of like
26:34that but maybe has a little bit maybe might have a little more juice but we didn't get a chance to really see for
26:41sure. Sure. I love it. No I watched a little bit of his tape. I haven't gone all the way through yet but I can I can
26:47kind of see some of the same same things that you you did especially from a cognitive perspective. But like he just
26:53picks up things so quickly and he's he's a step ahead of the defender in terms of when they're meeting them in the hole
27:01and that makes a big deal when you're you know you're not 225 pounds, right?
27:05You're getting a leverage advantage on almost every single down because you're processing things a tick quicker and that really does matter especially if
27:14you're your late rounder UDFA types. You see the field in preseason and you're out processing those guys it's going to show up and I I agree with
27:24you with the Kenny Gainwell comparison in a way because I think those guys are so important in inner world to the NFL
27:34because they hang around forever. And they'll get an opportunity and just run with it. Like Kenny Gainwell was Pittsburgh's best back by a mile last
27:41year in my opinion.
27:44And I think he's going to be the best back in Tampa this year as well. So I think very highly of Gainwell did as
27:50well come out of Memphis and I think those type of players we're going to start seeing more and more in the league
27:57because the versatility from a movement standpoint but as well from a positional perspective of blocking, receiving, you know, rushing
28:06that they can add is extremely valuable.
28:09And you know it's funny when we talk about maybe teams are compressing more, offenses are compressing the field more and playing bigger. It's still going to
28:18take probably another three years for college for NFL to catch up with getting bigger players who are good enough to be on an
28:27NFL field to counter the the 12 and 13 personnel. So I think we've got at least a few years of smaller backs still
28:37taking advantage of um these defensive fronts that were drafted and designed in some respects for spread offenses. So especially especially linebackers who
28:49are safety size. Yes.
28:51>> where that's going to happen more than anywhere and and I think that that's where they can leverage that for a few
28:57years. Yeah, for sure. So all right.
28:59Well, who do you have lower than who's your first that you're lower than the rest?
29:05Lower than consensus. I think that's interesting because for me the first one is probably going to be uh Sedik.
29:15Right? I have him you know as a developmental traits base traits base prospect. I think he's can be a short-term or bridge
29:24starter. I think some inconsistencies in his game could leave could lead to like career fallout, right? Yeah. Um I would say
29:35uh Chris Brazell the second. Okay.
29:39I cuz I think he he's there's a big hype train around him I think too of like this guy who's 6'5 who's a really fluid
29:47mover who has all the play speed in the world.
29:51But, with Brazil, I think a lot of it is can he win above the rim with consistency?
30:00Um and that's the that's the big question mark for me is can he beat number one corners that are pressing him, that are playing
30:11physical brand football? And that's what I don't really have an answer for right now. Is can he beat that? Cuz there's a Here
30:20goes this. There's There's two players I think that are in that for me I'm I'm going to be lower than consensus. Brazil
30:26the second and Chris Bell.
30:29Yeah. Um both are similar in the way that the archetype of those receivers typically don't pan out as perennial
30:40thousand yard guys.
30:42Like if you think about it, Chris Bell for example, how many guys in that physical profile are primary receivers in the NFL
30:52offense?
30:53I can think of two.
30:55DK Metcalf.
30:57AJ Brown.
30:59That's it. Yeah. That's the list.
31:02And the rest of the list isn't very pretty because then you have your guys like Ez Xavier Legette, your Jonathan Mingos of the world. You know, you have
31:11these guys that have a great physical profile and and you know, have 6'2 220 and
31:21can run like a deer, but they aren't skilled enough as movers to drop their weight drop their weight and run a big tree.
31:31So, you have guys that are, you know, great on crossing patterns and, you know, slants and delays and things of that
31:39nature and are good with the ball in their hands, but the depth of tree isn't there for them to be a number one receiver in the NFL.
31:48And so, unless you're that upper percentile of your guys like Brown, your guys like Metcalf who are in that same archetype physical
31:58of the physical traits, it's really hard to to get up there. Um it's it's not a huge bet. Um and then you on the other side
32:08of the coin is Brazil the second it's the guys that are 6'4 plus, your 6'5 guys, your guys that are long and lean and
32:18offensive coordinators don't really know how to deploy them.
32:22Right? You don't want to deploy them as your number one you move around because you you can you trust that?
32:28How many guys that are 6'5 have had a thousand yards in the NFL?
32:34The the list is very small, right?
32:37>> Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss. Yeah. Mike Williams.
32:40>> Mike Evans. Mike Evans, Mike Williams.
32:43Um that's I mean that's a pretty small for my recollection that's about what I can come up with.
32:51Um And that's what I'm talking big Mike Williams. That was about it. Yeah. Yeah.
32:57Yeah. And so, that's tough. It's like you how is an offensive coordinator going to deploy his skills because I think he's a really talented player and
33:03has a ton of upside. He reminds me of DJ Chark actually who's another one in that archetype. Um but is that going to be a player that's
33:11going to be deployed in 12 personnel, right? And that's tough. So, we don't have those answers, but I'd say that my
33:17biggest one that I'm lowest on is definitely Bell. I I have him as a a roster bubble for majority of career
33:24player. Um Yeah. because of I think the injury's one of them, two the durability issues and could happen from the ACL at 220 lbs. You already
33:35have You already have trouble with that at that weight dropping, decelerating, getting in and out of cuts. Um and now you add an ACL on top of that in
33:44December of surgery, so then you're looking at a potential, you know, October-ish return to play when you're maybe a day three pick.
33:56Like if he's a day three guy, then it you know, he might get passed by for the next cycle as well. Also, it's an uphill
34:02climb for for capital as well as the archetypical nature of of his build and how he plays receiver. I can totally see the scenario
34:11for all of that with him. I agree where the pitfalls are with him. I mean it's he's a player in some regards that
34:17I think I'm most afraid to draft and most afraid not to draft at the same time just >> [laughter] >> Cuz if it shakes right, like he
34:29yeah, he could be a legitimate, you know, version of what we wanted guys like Treylon Burks to be, right? I mean that's just
34:39the reality of it where that archetype of receiver is so scary, but yet so tantalizing at the same time because we
34:46look at the AJ Browns and AJ Brown is the rarest of rare breeds cuz he even though he's a little he's he still has
34:54limitations as a route runner.
34:56His highs are astronomical and so, that's the really interesting part of the the conversation with Bell is the highs are a potential pro bowler, right? Yeah. The
35:08lows are you're out of league in three to four years. So, you know, Bell could easily be one of mine, but I'm going to
35:14go a different route um with the two that I have, but I'll the first one I'll say is I'll wait cuz that's predictable. I'm
35:23going to I'm going to go quarterback. We didn't talk about quarterback, but I'm going to go quarterback. And I'm going to say Carson Beck. Um I think that most
35:31people don't view in the public view Carson Beck as an early round pick, but I think that Carson Beck could viably be a first or early second round
35:41pick in this class just based on what I'm hearing you know, people in the in the football community that I know
35:50talk about and they go he's the exact thing that NFL teams like to look for from a physical prototype standpoint.
35:59You know, the arm strength, the size, two winning programs, the the stats that he's shown.
36:07Um you you know, he's at least had good moments in two programs. And the way he spins the ball and that he probably
36:15understands offensive football pretty well on a whiteboard. Um the problem that I see with Carson Beck is that well, I'll say the good stuff is all
36:25those things plus there are things that he processes well. Um but the problem is is that in the NFL you have to process
36:35information fast and confidently and accurately when there are multiple defenders in the triangle that the receiver is reading. Um and when he's
36:46throwing into a triangle where two or three defenders are within the area of the ball and they can or within range that they
36:54can peel off where they were to cut off or undercut the ball, Beck doesn't show awareness of that with his placement or even his decision to
37:05throw the ball in the first place. So, the defender that's kind of ancillary to the main coverage has an opportunity frequently to cut it
37:14off. He also throws hospital balls.
37:17>> [laughter] >> It's like Uh you also might be in the
37:27ICU for two weeks.
37:29He also might get the ire of the He also might draw the ire of Michael Thomas who's having Derek Carr flashbacks all
37:38the time.
37:39He's got Derek Carr PTSD the way he go he went off on Twitter for you and I kind of don't blame him and then with
37:45Olave and all that. So, there's those are problems, you know, it's like and I think that there are a lot of
37:52quarterbacks who come into the league who have promising traits, but the thing is is that it can never get past where and when not to target the ball.
38:01Like Garrett Nussmeier has that problem with one area of the field and it's basically outside the numbers um
38:12in the in the intermediate and vertical sideline. That's where he misses the ancillary defender with certain looks like cover two. Um that's fixable, but
38:22when I'm looking at like a player where everywhere he throws and he doesn't see that, it's trouble and that's Beck. And I'm concerned that
38:31he just doesn't see it well. So, that's my that's my first one. Who's your second guy that you're like Well, you
38:38you mentioned both. So, my second guy we've talked about him. We both feel the same way about him, but it's so
38:45damningly clear and to me that's Mike Washington Jr. It's um you know, it's two things. It's the ball security, one per 51 touches. That's
38:54well below the rate that I find acceptable and it's some guys get better at it, but it's it's very few who have gotten better at
39:02it and then still produced. Um and maybe the data I've looked at is it's noisy, so it's not a direct correlation. But
39:10what is a direct correlation for me is that you have to be consistent at the point of contact in a collision to where you
39:19drop your pads and you face the defender when you do it. Um he tends he likes to try and spin off of contact or not even
39:26spin, just turns his back into it and tries to dig in.
39:31Yeah, he's a huge pivot based mover through contact and it it absolutely kills drives. Yes. Like, you know, you get to a second and four and
39:42it should be you know, easy first down.
39:45You're staring at third and two for some reason because your 230 lb back won't square up and and face the downhill safety. Like that's the stuff
39:56that's it's maddening when you watch a guy with his ability and initial and early acceleration >> Yeah. just from down to down shy away
40:07from direct engagements. And that's also a big reason in my opinion why he has such fumbling issues.
40:15is if he's going >> Correct. Pads are high. You're not going He's not coming downhill with a 230 lb frame. He is opening up and
40:26it's open season in terms of taking a shot on him cuz he's also he's 6'2". Imagine if your
40:35Imagine if your pads, your elbows, your forearms, your hands, your knees, and your feet are basically like the way
40:45people like to describe low center of gravity backs with power that they're a bowling ball with butcher knives and axes and and weapons coming out of
40:56them. Well, he he's shown that he can do that but he does it so he does it so seldomly compared to turning his back. So, yeah,
41:08the pad he can't get the pads down to make the first contact. He can't get the second contact to clear a guy with his
41:14forearm or his elbows. He's not pulling through low contact because his knees and feet aren't going high and forward downhill. He has no lean downhill. He's
41:24not accelerating through contact. He can't accelerate backwards through this.
41:28It's not you know, it's not a NASCAR Ricky Bobby's driving. You know, and you know, so you've you've literally like you said exposed your body. He from he
41:38goes from being a bowling ball with butcher knives to being a bowling ball that's a magnet for contact.
41:45>> [laughter] >> He's Yeah, cuz he's 6'2". He's 6'2".
41:48Yeah.
41:49>> Like that You you can't He's 6'1" 6'2".
41:51You can't open yourself up like that and you have nowhere to go. Like you If you can't drop your center of center of mass
41:59and and get through defenders, I mean, you just decelerate instantaneously and then, you know, with the ball security issues on top of it
42:09those guys Guys like that in the NFL like never linear linear base movers who are over 6'1"
42:20don't really pan out. Like there aren't many of them that are elite elite players. The only one I can think of
42:27that is similar mover in terms of linear driven athlete higher cut is Breece Hall.
42:35But the movement tools that Breece Hall has are it's it's a Grand Canyon sized gap between that and Mike Washington Jr.
42:42So, you know, your only all pro pro bowl type example is, you know, one player. So, it's just it's just
42:52really hard to find and see Mike Washington Jr. as the second player of that archetype being super successful. So, let's move to this
43:03and I'm really interested in your thoughts on these players or this question because, you know, you obviously deal with athletes developing themselves in in
43:14various ways. And so, I think I'm going to get probably a very real some realistic answers and things grounded in ideas that maybe a lot of other people
43:24out there aren't able to do and they conveniently say, "Well, if he just adds 20 lb, he'll be great." You know,
43:32so the the question is like who are some players like I see some running backs here where I thought to myself,
43:40"Can they add 8 to 10 lb of muscle?" And you look at their frame then I go, "I'm not the professional in this that
43:46Brandon is." So, but I want to know are there players at at any position that you look at and go, "If they add a reasonable amount of
43:54muscle" and I'd like to know how much you think that reasonable is based on their body type.
44:00Could they advance their game on some levels and we look at them and go, "Oh, they're kind of a different player
44:07because now the skills are being brought out that much more that they have but the athletic ability is now able to ride
44:14the ride."
44:15Yeah, it's a great That's a That's actually a really good question. I think a lot of times when we talk about
44:20adding mass. It's one of those really interesting ones because all the time in this time of year, "All right, if if this guy added 10 lb, he'd
44:27be a first round pick."
44:29It's really not that simple because what ends up happening is you've had a player that has moved a certain way and has the movement literacy at like
44:40let's say 200 lb. Adding 200 adding that frame to plus 10 lb at 210 lb doesn't necessarily mean they're going to have more power.
44:52It just means they're going to have more mass which is not great all the time if you're if you're trying to move that
44:58mass, right? So, that's the thing is like I'd rather have someone at 200 lb that can I know can pack a punch than
45:05add 10 lb and be a tick slower because they haven't learned cuz it's also too a re-education period in terms of movement, right?
45:14You have to re-educate your limbs, your tendons, your ligaments, your musculature to actually absorb and reproduce that force at a high level
45:25with more mass added.
45:28That's the big thing. It's If they just add 10 lb tomorrow, they're not going to necessarily be faster. Their limbs and
45:35their nervous system has to re-educate everything over a period of time.
45:42And then you can kind of see where that succeeds and fails.
45:47I would probably say the one running back that comes to mind that I think can really add is Nick Singleton.
45:56I think he can add 8 to 10.
45:59Wow.
46:00>> And and play at close to 230 and be a hammer.
46:07Wow.
46:07>> He's not a great mover laterally.
46:11But he's so good in initial and early acceleration that part of his game won't really be hindered. Right? When you talk about adding mass, a lot of
46:22times guys who add mass, what goes the biggest is velocity, right?
46:29Like you're talking about a quarter mile per hour drop off potentially half mile an hour in some cases.
46:37Guys, there are guys who carry their speed super well at 230 plus pounds.
46:41Saquon Barkley being one of those that comes to mind.
46:44But you're looking for a back that needs to get through contact and Nick Singleton's already 220 plus pounds. Right.
46:52You get a guy like that who has the frame to get to 230 then you're talking about meeting backers in
47:03the A and B gap a little differently.
47:06Right? And you're still bringing that that that pop and initial and early excel um because of how he is a mover. He's a
47:13very linear driven mover. Now, again, you know, if you Let's say you add pounds to, you know, one of one of your
47:19favorite players in this in this draft cycle, Amari Rodgers.
47:24It's not going to work. Right. Because of how reactive he is as a mover and how he change everything from lateral to
47:31linear. So, that wouldn't really work as well because you're slowing that down a tick.
47:37And it's like adding 10 lb to Bucky Irving.
47:40That probably won't work very well, right? Cuz you're losing a lot of the movement quality and the efficiency that you were getting before which you
47:48just don't really want to play around with. Um I would say Singleton for sure.
47:53So, what about guys that I'm going to give examples that added weight and seem more explosive but that might be a
47:59wives' tale, okay? But like I think of like Terrell Davis who was 195, Clinton Portis who was 190 195,
48:09Ray Rice who was, you know, 195 to 200 and became 220 and, you know, seemed to get a little quicker or people commented that that
48:21was the case. Are there cases even Aaron Jones was 195 at UTEP and is now closer to 210. So, when I think of a lot of the
48:29players like Jamaal Haynes or Robert Henry Jr. or you know, some of those guys that are on this list you go [clears throat]
48:40could they could they add that weight and be okay? What are the things How does How Why do some guys look like they're even faster or quicker
48:50and people say, "Well, you add quick twitch muscle and they and they've got and they're more explosive." And I'm guilty of that. So,
49:00so so like so tell me correct what I'm wrong about here with that to help me dispel my wives' tale notion of this
49:10that I've heard from from other people for years. Yeah, it's it's not really a It's it's It isn't it Is it a wives'
49:17tale? It's a big it depends actually.
49:19So, I think a lot of times it ends up happening is like I said like we All right, this guy gained 10 lb. He's This
49:25guy's faster, he's stronger. He you know, this is the best running back we've ever freaking seen now. And that's typically not the case
49:35because when you add mass like there's a large re-education period that has to happen because it's not like you're adding mass and you're running, you
49:44know, 0 to 10. That's what you're doing.
49:45You're not doing that. You are against other living, breathing, thinking top percentile athletes and on planet
49:57Earth who are trying to rip your head off. So, it's a very reactive thing in nature.
50:02So, if you can't react in the same vein neurologically and cognitively, then it doesn't really matter.
50:10>> So, they were good movers in the first place and they and they just got and they just got better at seeing the
50:17game faster.
50:18>> Correct. So, the game slows down for them so they can speed up. Okay. If that makes sense, right? It's It's like you
50:26do the multiplication tables as a kid.
50:28Right. Um Honestly, I had them when you were a kid. I had them when I was a kid.
50:33>> Yes. So, the multiplication tables the first time you do them, you're super slow. Right. Right? Then you do them 20
50:39times and you're freaking breezing through them.
50:42Your Your mind's re-educated. Yeah. Like neurologically, you understand the sequencing, right? So, when you understand the sequencing at that level with that much mass, you can sequence
50:53that at a quicker rate.
50:55>> So, it would be the same thing with boxers who move up in weight class. Like they you know, Sugar Ray Leonard was
51:01such a good was so quick anyway and his mind was so quick at what he perceived and what he was able to process that
51:10even though he moved up from welterweight to middleweight, it wasn't a big deal. Roy Jones Jr., you know, folks like that. That makes sense. But
51:18if you lose weight you know, and you're already quick, well you know, does it make you quicker or does it does it
51:27possibly help you because you have less mass there, but you might be a little but you also could risk, I imagine, of
51:33losing stamina because of the fact that your body you know, that maybe you're underweight for what you really should be. Yeah, it that it's just so
51:43interesting cuz it is so case-by-case, but it all comes down to the big C. It's confidence. Right? Okay. Like is this
51:50Can this player become more confident doing X?
51:55If a player is playing with more confidence at 5 more pounds will that make a physical difference of X percent?
52:04You really can't quantify it, which is why I hate when people are like, "Oh, man, I love I absolutely love my
52:11Washington Jr., but I will never draft Demone Clayborn."
52:15Right.
52:15>> Holy cow, Demone Clayborn is so much better as a player. Runs laps around my Washington Jr. However, NFL GMs are sometimes cavemen Yeah.
52:25in terms of thinking. It's they want the best physical like pound-for-pound running back, yeah.
52:34>> And I I want them to look great walking out the bus. Like that's what I want.
52:38>> Yeah.
52:38>> Like but that's that's like archaic thinking. But that's what we That's >> They want the bus runway.
52:44>> [laughter] >> Exactly, right? Like they want the get off the bus kids, as they call them, right?
52:50>> And a lot of times that's what ends up happening and you get bad football players.
52:54Um and so if you lose weight, can you Does it make you quicker? Inherently, your limbs can move freer and it's
53:02you can neurologically process um you know, process things at a little quicker of a rate from like, you know, your mind-muscle connection, so to speak.
53:13But does it make you faster?
53:16Sure, but are you There is there a cost of um uh padding, essentially, right? Cuz that's what, you know, people think that
53:26muscle mass is for in football. It's padding, right? We get hit a lot.
53:29But really what you do is you lose weight as the season goes out.
53:33So, if you play at 205, you're going to end the season likely at 198 to 200 lb, maybe less. Um and so it's just
53:43essentially armor to get through 17 plus games. That's the That's the durability aspect. It's not if I hit someone at 230
53:52lb >> Yeah. like are they not They're just not going to get hurt. They're not as likely to get hurt. No, it's
53:58they're not going to drop from 230 to If they drop from 230 to 225, it's not a huge difference, right?
54:04>> Right. But if you drop from 200 to 195, like that could make a bigger difference when you're absorbing so much force on a
54:11on a game-to-game basis, that could make a difference.
54:14So, it's a really interesting conundrum in terms of we look at it from, "Okay, this player is too light."
54:20Like the weigh-ins at the NFL combine are hilarious cuz when I see them come up and every comment's like, "Oh, this
54:26guy is too small. Oh, this guy's a perfect size." It's just the weirdest ever. It's just so strange to me.
54:31>> Yeah.
54:32Because it's really about how they utilize that weight. But also, the NFL combine weigh-ins are like fighting weigh-ins. Oh, just in a way. Yeah. It's
54:41just And just imagine going to the Senior Bowl and on Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday in a former slave port, they're weighing all these guys. Um you
54:51you know, parading them on the thing and everybody's commenting on their bodies and fetishizing it and it's like and then I'm laughing cuz then I talk to
54:58former NFL players, they go, "You know, some of the sloppiest-looking dudes who look like they play softball in a Chicago league are like some of the best
55:05athletes on the field and they're like and they're so good and like one of my friends played basketball intramural basketball back in the day
55:15with Hines Ward and he said if you looked at Hines Ward in a t-shirt and shorts, you would never think that he
55:20was an NFL player and he was, you know, he wasn't much of a basketball player.
55:25He was a football player playing basketball. Um but he was all football player. You know, and he had a long career and you
55:33know, and now you see him now and you know, he looks like me out there coaching, you know, like you know, the
55:38way you know, and that's kind of the thing is that it we we like to think they're that they need to be chiseled and they're like
55:48these fitness models.
55:50>> It's not that.
55:51The game is played upstairs and we we forget that because we love to look at the the 1%
56:02percent of the population in terms of physique. Um and I think that's a really big one is you Do you I heard the old
56:10old adage like you want to look at what you're not, so to speak. Yeah.
56:14>> Like I'm not 6'2" 220, so 6'2" 220 looks pretty freaking cool. Right.
56:19>> Um but that's not always effective on the field of play, right? When bullets are flying and you know, you're against
56:26other thinking, feeling human beings who are getting, you know, may hands from really smart, thinking, feeling human beings.
56:35And so that's the issue is it's played upstairs, but that's also why you see receivers have so much more
56:44success if they're 4'5" 5 to 4'6" 5 guys than 4'3" guys to 4'2" guys. There you go.
56:51>> That's That's Like think about it. Like how many guys who ran sub 4'3" have been 1,000-yd receivers in the NFL? Yeah.
56:58Three. Tyreek Hill.
57:00Randy Moss.
57:02Uh Hill, Moss You know. Isaac Bruce, maybe?
57:07I Hill, Moss and that I think there's one other and that's really it. And you're talking about three guys ever and that's such a lauded thing for
57:17receivers, but in reality to play that fast, you have to process equally as quick. That makes perfect sense.
57:25>> an extremely extremely hard thing to do to process when you're when you are that rapid of a
57:34mover. It's really difficult. Yeah.
57:37And that's why >> to be much faster than everybody else's brain. And they have to be You have to be firing on different
57:44cylinders than everybody else. That's why it's easier to change speed than to have speed. Yeah. Because you can do that. Everybody can change speed. You
57:52can make that a tool in your toolkit.
57:55Not everybody has speed. So, people who have speed use it and that's all they do.
58:00>> Yeah. And so that's a really interesting thing when you talk about guys who have not panned out in the NFL
58:06who've been 4'3" guys. I bet I bet my wife ran a 4'4" 40, probably, when she was a track athlete. And they tried to put her on
58:15the basketball team.
58:17And she found they found out pretty quickly why she just ran track.
58:22>> [laughter] >> Sure. Cuz she could she could run the court, but she couldn't shoot, you know, she couldn't shoot and and processing what was going on on
58:32the court was just too slow, you know.
58:34>> man. It's a totally different ball game, man, and I I think that that's when it's, you know, it's it's always fun to
58:40look back on guys who don't have success. Yeah. And they're kind of like, "Oh, man, like Jacoby Ford, Darius Heyward-Bey, like Breshad Perriman, like
58:49Yeah. guys who were like, "Oh, man, this guy's a freak." Like how they they just That's why Randy Moss is special cuz again, Bill Belichick
58:57said he's the smartest player ever coached, you know, or smartest receiver ever coached.
59:01>> 100% and that's that's He had to be in order to have that much success. If you're 6'5" run a 4'2", like Yeah. You
59:08got to be thinking light-years ahead of everybody to be able to react in the way you did at that speed. That makes sense.
59:13>> 100% Yeah, it's it's all perceptual cognitive, for sure.
59:17>> So, let's end it this way. Um we'll each pick a player from a previous class that we shouldn't forget about.
59:23I'm just going to choose mine and I'm going to say Damien Martinez um signed by the Packers um during this period and I think that, you
59:32know, there are a lot of people who like Damien as a as a back because he's got nice size, he can break tackles, he's
59:38quick enough, fast enough, he processes the game pretty darn well. He's a good outside zone runner, but he can pound it
59:45um if you need him to gap plays, and I thought that he was a decent blocker who could get better, and he was a and he
59:51was a better receiver than credited for.
59:54So, with you know, Emanuel Wilson gone, Chris Brook Christopher Brooks signed to a second contract, um and MarShawn Lloyd just trying to get healthy and proving
60:05that he can hold onto the ball once he is healthy, um with all that speed, and also being able to prove that he can be
60:11more disciplined, he's got to show all that because he hasn't had enough time to really show it right now.
60:19Damien Martinez might have an opportunity to step in and be the second or third back um on this depth chart and
60:26have a future in Green Bay.
60:30I 100% agree. I mean, yeah, I you hit the nail on the head, I think.
60:34You look at what Green Bay is going to be in another year or two at the running back position, and it's a big question mark,
60:42right? We don't know what that room's going to look like um with Josh Jacobs getting older and and contract wearing out. So, I think that's an
60:51interesting one for me.
60:54It's going to be Chris Rodriguez Jr.
60:56There we go.
60:58I I I I think that he has a chance to be a really big piece in that Jaguars offense.
61:08When you look at Liam Coen, what's the connection? Well, Chris Rodriguez Jr.
61:14had almost 1,400 yd under Coen, was a bell cow there at Kentucky, and then averaged over 100 yd a game before he got hurt
61:24in his senior season.
61:26So, you look at it, and they went out and got him. Um I think Toutan is viewed more in the Bucky Irving
61:35type categorization of we're going to use this guy up until we get to the goal line.
61:42And that is a really difficult thing when you're talking about fantasy football. is he's strictly likely a between the 20s back.
61:51Um and Chris Rodriguez Jr. is going to add a different element of, you know, yards after contact and low red zone
61:58work, short yardage. And that's what Liam Coen likes, and he actually went out and said it. He's like, I like running backs that the first
62:06thing I look at is yards after contact.
62:09First thing I look at is yards after contact per attempt. And that was a really interesting thing at the I think it was the owners meeting um
62:17that they do, and they they went and interviewed Coen, and he said that, and you go out and get one of the best YAC guys
62:27in free agency in Chris Rodriguez Jr., one that he's worked with personally and had success with. So, I think that's an
62:32interesting one for me. Obviously, he's a near zero as a receiver, but you're looking at potential 10-plus touchdown upside in Jacksonville because he's
62:40going to get that work cuz that's where he's trusted, and I think that's a really big one uh to not forget about because he does
62:48have some upside of of being a a RB3 potentially. Yeah. No, I can see that.
62:54That that's totally cool.
62:57You know, and you know, the experience like you said, Liam Coen's worked with him before, he knows what he had, you
63:03know, so that that's a sneaky good play.
63:06Well, listen, folks, you know, we we've enjoyed this as always as we always do, and we will be back in a in a
63:15couple of weeks. Um by that time, the draft will be very close, and and uh we'll have a little bit more for
63:21you. In the meantime, check out Brandon Angelo's work, you know, at Angelo's Analysis. Check out my work at the RSP.
63:28It is now available. You can get it at at waldman.com, and uh we appreciate you, and thank you so much for for
63:35tuning in as you have and being, you know, the subscribers that you've been and giving us the feedback that you have. It's it's a privilege, and uh you
63:44know, we have fun doing it, and we and we're glad that you have fun listening to us do it. So, We do. Appreciate it.
63:49Yeah.

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