PodcastFrom Bootleg Football
A team that runs entirely on adrenaline and spite | The Detroit Lions
STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this podcast and kept the full transcript here for context.
1 hr 15 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Aug 10, 2026
Published
Mon, August 10, 2026
11
Player insights
8
Players mentioned
Topics
Jahmyr GibbsJared GoffD'Andre SwiftDavid MontgomeryGreg DortchIsiah PachecoKendrick LawTyler Conklin
Player analysis
Player insights
D'Andre Swift
PositiveUsage17:32
Under Ben Johnson's coordination in Chicago, DeAndre Swift helped the Bears rank 1st in rushing success rate in 2025, demonstrating that Johnson's system remains highly effective for running backs even without the specific talent profile of Jahmyr Gibbs.
Insight pageDavid Montgomery
PositiveRole47:11
David Montgomery was traded to the Texans to serve as their lead back, a role in which the source believes he will excel.
Insight pageGreg Dortch
PositiveValue50:04
Greg Dortch is highly regarded by the source as a 'slot receiver extraordinaire' who provides great value at a $1.5 million contract cost.
Insight pageIsiah Pacheco
NegativeProjection49:16
The source projects Isaiah Pacheco to be at least an RB2, potentially an RB3, in the Lions' backfield rotation.
Insight pageJahmyr Gibbs
PositiveUsage10:33
Despite the Lions' overall offensive line struggles and team-wide rushing decline, Jahmyr Gibbs remained highly productive, ranking 9th in explosive runs, 1st in explosive touchdown runs, and 2nd in total touchdowns from the line of scrimmage. The source suggests that with the team's offseason commitment to rebuilding the offensive line, Gibbs has legitimate potential to be an MVP candidate.
Insight pagePositiveUsage22:26
The source highlights that Jahmyr Gibbs is a mismatch nightmare out of the backfield, questioning how many NFL linebackers are capable of covering him in man-heavy defensive schemes.
Insight pageNegativeUsage72:29
Jahmyr Gibbs was the primary focal point of the Lions' run game last season, often operating against stacked fronts due to inconsistencies elsewhere in the offense. The source notes that improvements to the offensive line should help stabilize the run game this year.
Insight pageJared Goff
PositiveRole21:32
Jared Goff is described as capable of running the passing game from the field, with the source noting he has a 'brain trust' of offensive coaches supporting him, including Mike Kafka and David Shaw.
Insight pagePositiveProjection70:56
Jared Goff's health is identified as the primary factor for the Lions' floor and ceiling. The source believes that if Goff remains healthy, the team is virtually guaranteed at least eight wins, with a ceiling of 10-12 wins and potential for a division title.
Insight pageKendrick Law
NegativeInjury62:27
Kendrick Law is an explosive wide receiver with gadget potential, but his immediate impact is delayed after being placed on IR with an injury.
Insight pageTyler Conklin
NegativeRole49:21
Tyler Conklin was brought in from the Chargers to add to the tight end room; the source describes him as an okay blocker.
Insight pageFull transcript
Episode Transcript
0:00Things have been rolling right along in the Motor City since Dan Campbell's arrival five years ago.
0:06Three winning seasons out of the first four and two division titles.
0:09Big Dan brought sustained success to this historically downtrodden franchise.
0:13But success in the NFL has a price. Win enough and the vultures start circling, looking to get their own piece of what you've made.
0:21The Lions knew change was coming, but they thought they were ready.
0:25Trust the process, they said. We have winning culture now.
0:28It's not the guy calling the plays. It's the system.
0:31We know the system. Turns out, the guy does matter a little bit.
0:35CBS Sports has confirmed that the Lions are parting ways with offensive coordinator John Morton.
0:40Head coach Dan Campbell assumed play calling duties from Morton at week nine.
0:44Detroit stumbled off the top spot of the podium, all the way down to the basement of the NFC North in just one year.
0:52So now what? Campbell and his guys are fighters.
0:55They'll follow the lead of some Detroit legends in the ring.
0:59James Toney, Thomas Hearns, Joe Louis. They'll pull themselves together, get up off the mat, and charge back out swinging.
1:05Can the Lions shake off their cobwebs and win the next round in 2026?
1:10We've got the tale of Detroit's tape. Welcome to bootleg.
1:13Welcome to football. Welcome to the Bootleg Football podcast.
1:16I'm Brett Coleman. That's EJ Snyder. And yes, the thing on my lip is the dumbest self-inflicted injury of all time.
1:23I was making pasta for my wife. Didn't blow on it hard enough and lost a battle with some boiling water on the lip.
1:30So please ignore that if you can, if you're watching the video version of the show.
1:35But it's OK. We're powering through it. Didn't end up on IR.
1:39EJ, how are you? I assume you're better than me right now.
1:43Yeah, nothing that'll keep you out of the next podcast.
1:46Good to know. It is our first edition of Bootleg After Dark in this summer series.
1:52And I have to say, was a little more fun when you lived downtown L.A.?
1:57That was a whole ass mood. Night shoots in that apartment were pretty, pretty epic.
2:01We heard about those when we went to the combine next year.
2:05But it's like, those were so cool. We were like, they were necessary.
2:09We were behind. We had to do three a day.
2:13This one, not because of the injury. By the way, bitch and a half to light those.
2:18Yes. Try and get no glare. C-stands going like 15 feet in the air so that you weren't just showered in glare the entire time.
2:26A good time. It's a little bit harder to tell that it's nighttime because we're both on a set for this year's series.
2:34And we do most of the episodes at like 10 a.m.
2:37Well, not 10, maybe like 11 a.m. Maybe. So this one, we're actually like drinking at an appropriate time.
2:43It's not breakfast whiskey. But it will be fun.
2:46And this is going to be a fun episode.
2:49So Detroit, fascinating team. And if you watched this series last summer, we did say, look, we don't think they're going to fall off a cliff.
2:58And they didn't. But we do think there is going to be a drop off.
3:03You don't lose a Ben Johnson and just replace him in the aggregate.
3:07I know that's what they wanted to do. We'll talk about whether or not that happened.
3:12But there was a bit of a fall in Detroit, especially after their previous two, three years worth of heavy success.
3:19So we'll talk about why. And we'll also talk about what we think is the outlook for 2026 and whether or not they will rebound.
3:27Spoiler alert. Yeah, we think that's going to happen.
3:30But we have to go through 2025 first. And then we will get to the fun stuff in 2026.
3:36All the things that they've done to address all the things that fell short in 2025.
3:41Reminder, the non-breakfast breakfast whiskey for today is the Woodinville.
3:44Well, this is actually the straight normal Woodinville. Oh, we match for the first time in the series.
3:50Yeah. The six year. Yeah. This is this is the six year as well.
3:55Not that I don't have, you know, the more fun, more rare stuff behind me.
3:59But I wanted to go. Oh, gee, tonight. All right.
4:03We're going to start with our 2025 recap. I promise Lions fans, we will not try to drone on too much because
4:10we understand a lot has changed since 2025. But you need to understand all the bad things that happen or happened.
4:17Excuse me. Before we can really properly explain why those bad things might possibly be better now.
4:22For sure. Overall record of nine and eight. Again, not bad.
4:26Better than a 500 ball club. A lot of fan bases would kill for that.
4:31But in the NFC North, the toughest division in football last year, it was only good enough for fourth.
4:37Home record of five and three. Road record of four and five.
4:41Last five games. They were two and three. And I found that part interesting.
4:452025 was Detroit's worst finish down the stretch in the last four seasons.
4:49In 2024, they were four and one in their last five.
4:53In 2023, they were three and two. And in 2022, they were also four and one in their last five.
4:59So two and three represented a pretty big drop off at a time historically when Detroit has been strong down the stretch, powering into the playoffs.
5:08We didn't get to see that in 2025. And I think it was representative of a lot of the issues we'll talk about.
5:15But it is notable that the three years before that, they really were hitting their stride right when you want to be
5:22heading into the tournament, as it were in the NFL.
5:26And last year, they could not get that done.
5:28To me, the story of the 2025 Lions was what happens to a team that historically runs the ball really well, at
5:36least in recent history, that all of a sudden can't run the ball well anymore.
5:40Right. The spine of the team was gone. The identity of the team was gone.
5:45Even when the defense was bad and or banged up and or both, they always had the run game that could protect
5:52the defense by keeping them off the field. Even when the passing game was shaky.
5:57Not that it happened very often in Ben Johnson's tenure, but at least in the in the weeks where the passing game just wasn't quite on rhythm.
6:06We get these random like bad Jared Goff games.
6:09Again, not that there was a lot of those.
6:12You could always count on the run game. It was the one thing you could always count on no matter what.
6:19That was gone this year for various reasons we'll get into.
6:22And without that identity, this team was just listless.
6:25Right. I didn't I didn't know what to expect from them because the only thing I could expect from them historically wasn't there anymore.
6:33And it felt odd to watch a Dan Campbell Lions team that like, yeah, Jameer Gibbs could do his thing.
6:39But it felt like they never had any rhythm and they never had any physicality.
6:44They could never just get going consistently without that run game.
6:48And I think this offseason, they moved heaven and earth to get back to that because they they didn't have anything without it.
6:55We'll talk about some of that consistency and how a seemingly small drop in that consistency played a huge role in this team's downfall.
7:03But one of the most common misnomers around the NFL, and this was a heat check for it, is that Ben Johnson's a passing coach.
7:11Now, Ben Johnson is a running coach. He loves the run game dearly, like at his core.
7:17And it sets up everything. And folks that have watched Detroit football understand that that was the case.
7:22And I think they all probably secretly worried, are we going to be able to do it at that level?
7:29And the answer is, nah, you weren't able to.
7:32And everything else faltered because of it. They became slightly more one dimensional, not completely one dimensional, but that allowed defenses to
7:39tee it up, especially late in games with. Nah, we don't think you're going to run it because you don't do it as well as you used to.
7:48That means a pass play is coming. We can kind of hedge our bets on that side and be more effective against that as well.
7:56And so one supported the other, and when one leg of the stool fell off, the whole thing tipped over.
8:03We'll talk about how that happened in the effectiveness summary.
8:06The number we use for that is bootleg power score.
8:09Bootleg power score is just six numbers that we think are very representative of a football team playing football well.
8:15Passing EPA per play, rushing EPA per play, defense allowed versus the pass and the rush, again using EPA per play.
8:22Points scored and points allowed. We take those six numbers, we assign them their league rank, we add those six numbers together,
8:29divide by six, we get a base score, and then we just stack them and say, compared to every other team in
8:36the NFL, how powerful was this team? So Detroit's numbers, passing EPA per play, rushing EPA per play is where the issues cropped up.
8:44They were 25th in the league in rushing EPA per play.
8:48Defense against the pass, middle of the road, 14th.
8:51That's good enough to win, and rush EPA per play allowed was 17th.
8:55Also good enough to win. You can win with the middle of the road defense.
9:00Detroit could have done that if, again, they were able to lean on their greatest strength in previous years, the running game.
9:07Points scored, they did really well. This was a top five scoring offense in the NFL.
9:12They were fourth. And points allowed, not a great scoring defense.
9:1622nd, but that probably shouldn't have sealed the coffin for them.
9:19It was that they couldn't close out games. So we take those numbers, 5, 25, 14, 17, 4, and 22.
9:26Add them up, divide by 6. That gives us a raw score of 14.5.
9:30And that stacks them up as the 15th overall most powerful team.
9:34Pretty much right down the middle in a 32-team league.
9:37So not a bad team, and their record was reflective of that.
9:419 and 8. That is a middle-of-the-road record. 15th overall is a middle-of-the-road power score.
9:46I will say it wasn't just a losing Ben Johnson thing.
9:50Didn't help, obviously. But the year-over-year drop-off in offensive line play was what honestly killed them.
9:55And this is a team that, again, in true Lions fashion, was banged up.
9:59They had nine different offensive linemen get 100-plus snaps on the season.
10:03One of them was Dan Skipper, by the way, who now is a coach with the team.
10:09But he was one of them. In particular, their guard situation, especially when their already shaky guards got banged up and they had backups in there.
10:17It was really horrific. You know, Graham Glasgow taking over for the retired Frank Ragnow, who came back for like three days
10:24and then, you know, had a hamstring thing. So didn't last.
10:28But, you know, Glasgow took over. Didn't go well at all.
10:31He got released in March and still remains unsigned.
10:34Not what he used to be. You have Ratledge, who's a rookie.
10:38Montgomery, who's also a young player, second or third year, and just didn't play well, quite frankly.
10:44Did not even look like the player that I thought he could have been coming out of college.
10:49He looks slower. He looks stiffer. His punch doesn't have any power to it.
10:54Which, again, stunning to me because he had a really strong punch in college.
10:59I mean, he gave up six sacks last year and they were ugly, ugly sacks.
11:03You know, lack of awareness on stunts and blitzes.
11:06Like, he was a liability at left guard, quite frankly.
11:10And when you package that together with no longer having elite center play for an offensive line that is supposed to be
11:17good at outside zone, can't be good at outside zone without an elite center play.
11:22They didn't have that. You have a rookie guard.
11:24You know, you have a left tackle who, again, on his last legs.
11:29The offensive line got old and slow and not explosive very, very quickly.
11:33And we saw that manifest in the run game.
11:3625th in EAPA per play, to your point. And 29th in explosive run rate.
11:40And that's even with Jameer Gibbs individually as a running back being 9th in explosive runs and 1st in explosive touchdown runs
11:47and 2nd in total touchdowns scored for line of scrimmage.
11:51It's actually kind of a miracle that Jameer Gibbs did what he did.
11:55Because as a team, this wasn't a good run game.
11:58But Jameer Gibbs ripped off a lot of explosives.
12:01Now, looking at those explosives, this is one thing I do want to note.
12:06Because there's one offensive lineman who I didn't name.
12:08It's Penny Sewell. If you break out their EAPA per play on the ground by concept.
12:14Remember, outside zone. They ran the 4th most outside zone in the NFL.
12:18They were 17th. Dead average in that. Inside zone.
12:21They were 9th in EAPA per play. That's really good.
12:24Man concepts. First in EAPA per play. Like, they were stunningly good on man concepts.
12:29If you're looking at EAPA. Like, first with a bullet compared to everybody else.
12:33Get to power. Dead last. Counter. 11th. And then pin and pull.
12:3729th. So, there were certain concepts they were so bad at.
12:41Usually ones that involved, you know, the guards having to be good.
12:45But there were certain concepts they were so bad at.
12:48That it actually dragged them all the way down to 25th overall.
12:52But if you're looking at just stuff that hits north-south.
12:55Right? Which is man concepts. Inside zone tends to hit quickly and hit up the gut.
13:00And then counter, which can hit north-south. If it goes like it's supposed to.
13:05If it doesn't get blocked like it's supposed to.
13:08Then it's every man for himself. But counter can hit north-south like that.
13:12But that kind of stuff, they were really good at.
13:15So then, I had to dig even further. Okay.
13:18Why? What's going on here? So, if you look at just their man concept runs.
13:23Which they were the best in the NFL at.
13:26Because I was like, you know, when I watch this team.
13:29Both live during the season and on tape. It doesn't feel like they're really good at it.
13:35And it's because they're only good at it if they're running behind Penny Sewell.
13:39They were first by far on man concept runs to the right side.
13:44In fact, they were first on any concept runs to the right side.
13:48They were 24th on man when they hit to the left.
13:51So, they were the best man team in the NFL.
13:55But if they went anywhere other than the B and C gap to the right side.
14:00They were actually 24th. So, that's, if that doesn't tell you how good Penny Sewell is as a player.
14:06Then I don't know what else does. If you're looking at all the explosive runs.
14:11That they got specifically on man concepts. 80% of them were behind Penny Sewell.
14:15And the other one was behind Glasgow. But 80% of your explosive runs on your most effective concept were behind one guy.
14:22So, you know, I know a long way to go for a short drink of water here.
14:28When you look at a run game that is nothing, nothing, nothing, everything.
14:32It's easy to say, oh, they were just inconsistent.
14:35They were actually very consistent. If they ran behind their best player, they were consistently the best in the league.
14:42If they ran behind anybody else, they were far, far, far below average.
14:46And that is both scary if I'm a Lions fan because, oh no, our offensive line became bad overnight.
14:52But it's also encouraging because to me that means it's fixable.
14:55We know what the issue is. It wasn't just new offensive coordinator.
14:59It wasn't just one offensive lineman. It was young guards that are still learning how to play, particularly Rattledge.
15:05It was an old center that we knew we had to replace anyway.
15:10And it was a left tackle situation that they knew going into the year they were going to have to figure that one out long term.
15:18And they did. So scary, but encouraging because we know how to diagnose it and we know how to fix it.
15:25It does give you a very clear blueprint as a GM and a coach to say, great, what's our offseason plan?
15:32We got to refurbish the offensive line. And life comes at you pretty fast because not that long ago, we were absolutely
15:39trumpeting Detroit's success in building a young, talented, aggressive offensive line.
15:42It doesn't last that long in the NFL. In this case, it lasted about three, three and a half years.
15:49And then it fell apart. And that's what happens.
15:52And this year they said, yep, we got to patch the holes in the wall.
15:57That's what we got to do. It's not that our skill position players can't play.
16:01They obviously can. You talked about the success rate for Jameer Gibbs and the explosive rate, particularly like he's still doing it despite all odds.
16:10We've got to push the odds back in his favor by rebuilding that line in front of him and allowing him to get those runs more often.
16:18Interestingly enough, I think this is an illustrative point for how small the margins are for success in the NFL overall.
16:25If we're talking about rushing success rate for Detroit, it dropped four and a half percentage points between 2024 and 2025.
16:32Now that might not seem like very much. In 2024, their rushing success rate, 44.57% on 534 attempts.
16:38That was good for sixth best in the NFL.
16:41Again, easily a top 10 unit, almost a top five unit.
16:44Last year it dropped to 40.05%. So four and a half percent on 442 rush attempts.
16:49Again, 90 less. Not surprising. If you don't run the ball as well, you're probably going to do it less.
16:56That might seem like, oh, well, you know, they probably dropped from like six to like, I don't know, 10th or 12th.
17:03No, four and a half points was an 18 point drop or an 18 spot drop.
17:08They went from sixth to 24th on four and a half percentage points.
17:12So that's a huge drop. And again, it's because the margins for success in the NFL are very, very thin.
17:19And if you do something slightly worse than you did it the year before, you're going to see a precipitous fall.
17:26Interestingly enough, you know who is number one? Who?
17:29Their old coach, but in Chicago. Ben Johnson at Chicago.
17:32Oh, and that's with DeAndre Swift, by the way.
17:35Correct. I should note. So he's playing on hard mode.
17:38Yeah, exactly. He's still going to number one. He doesn't have Jameer Gibbs.
17:42And Chicago was number one in rushing success rate in 2025.
17:46So yeah, coaching does make a difference, folks. Uh, injuries do as well as you laid out.
17:51So the lines weren't as effective as a running team.
17:54They couldn't lean on it as they could under Ben Johnson as the easy button of we need to crank out some yards.
18:02We need to salt the game away. We are just going to run it down your throats and have success doing that.
18:09They couldn't do it. Therefore, they had to throw more often.
18:13They became more predictable. Defenses understood that. And as a result, they couldn't or didn't run it as often because they were behind and it wasn't as effective.
18:22And that ended up being sort of their undoing.
18:25Because again, when you have a bedrock, when you have an identity as an offense and it cracks or it goes away,
18:32you don't really know where to go. What's what's the left hand?
18:36The Lions never really developed one. And as a result, this offseason, they said, guess what we're going to do?
18:42We're going to rebuild that base. I mean, it's always easy to, you know, internalize success and externalize failure, right?
18:48Like, oh, we were bad at running the ball because of injuries or because we didn't get the call or whatever.
18:55But I really like the Lions are also internalizing failure, right?
18:59It's like we were bad at running the ball because we were bad at running the ball.
19:04So let's let's address it. Let's fix it. Let's bring in Drew Petsing, who has a history being able to coordinate a good run game.
19:12Now, passing game. Been hit or miss, but we know we can coordinate a run game.
19:18Let's bring in Cade Mays, right? An effective center upgrade at center, right?
19:22We're going to move our arguably best player over the left tackle.
19:26We're going to draft a right tackle who's the most experienced right tackle maybe ever in the history of college football and Blake Miller.
19:33All right. So we're going to prop up mahogany with the greatness of Penny Sewell.
19:38We're going to have a young right side that can work together.
19:42We're going to upgrade at center, potentially upgrade at coordinator.
19:45Still got everything else. Still got the quarterback. Still got the weapons.
19:49You know, I can't imagine injuries notwithstanding that they're going to be as bad as they were or rather as consistently inconsistent
19:56as they were last year with how much work they've done to rebuild the offensive line, which then also.
20:03You know, we're going to talk a little bit about how they can't fix corner and how Lions fans are begging them to fix corner.
20:11They know what's more important, and that's fixing the run game.
20:14So, yes, I understand DB was a priority. Pass rusher was a priority.
20:18Everybody wants a corner. Dear God, please give us a corner.
20:22Right tackle was the correct pick because they know where their bread is buttered.
20:27It's on the offensive line. It's with the run game.
20:30It's making Jameer Gibbs a legitimate MVP candidate. That's what works for them.
20:34Yeah. And when we get to the coaching section, we'll talk about the insulation they have on this staff to make sure
20:41that Drew Petsing doesn't have the weight of the entire pass game on his shoulders.
20:46Quite the opposite. He's got a boatload of help.
20:49Some people would say too many cooks in the kitchen.
20:52I don't necessarily think so based on previous experience.
20:55But Petsing's run game in Arizona was tremendously fun.
20:58It was creative. Again, lacked some of the Jimmies and Joes to make it work.
21:03But we've called it out on this show multiple times as, hey, he's doing some really interesting stuff.
21:09And I can't wait to see what he does in Detroit with a rebuilt offensive line and a runner as talented as Jameer Gibbs.
21:16I think it's going to be a lot of fun to watch this season.
21:21And if he just leans on Goff as his passing game coordinator on the field, fine.
21:26Right? Because Goff is now at the age and at the experience level where he can basically do that.
21:32Right? Like he can run the passing game from on the field.
21:36And he's still got J-Mo, Laporta, Amon Ra, obviously.
21:39Like we like what we saw from Tesla. You know, if we play against a man-heavy defense, how many linebackers in the
21:46NFL are going to cover Jameer Gibbs out of the backfield?
21:50Like, Goff can cook and do his stuff in the pass game.
21:54They just really needed to fix the run game.
21:56And I'm happy they did that. Now, I did mention the weakness at corner.
22:01Yes. I do want to touch on the defense a little bit.
22:05Boy, they're weird. In a fun way, but they're weird.
22:08This is a team that matched base personnel on defense into multi-tied end sets like 12 personnel.
22:1496.3% of the time, highest rate of big bodies on big bodies in the league.
22:18They also played base nearly 30% of the time against 11.
22:22You contrast that with like Seattle that never left nickel once they got Eman Worry back.
22:27Right? Or, you know, Baltimore that loves nickel or any of these teams that stay in nickel no matter what, no matter
22:34how many tight ends are on the field. But Detroit's like, nope, we got three linebackers.
22:40And when Branch was healthy, we have a safety who can also be a slot.
22:44What was interesting when I tried to parse this out, because I did find it fascinating, that despite the lack of nickel
22:51being played, technically they were a worse run defense than pass defense.
22:55But I wanted to parse out why it worked, because it's so counterintuitive to play 30% of your snaps in base against 11 personnel.
23:03It was based on down and distance, primarily. Not based on personnel matchups.
23:07This is a defense that just plays the percentages, the run pass percentages.
23:12They don't care about individual matchups, because if you're looking around the league, so many teams are using these like power slot
23:19types and making them essentially play full back. And we're running two back runs out of 11 personnel.
23:24If we have like a puka type that can be a full back on the run.
23:30And so they're like, screw it. We're not going to work.
23:33We're not going to do personnel matchups because that's not going to get us anywhere.
23:38We're just going to play a run pass splits.
23:41So on first down, specifically against 11 personnel, they played base 57.6% of the time.
23:46That's fucking insane to have three linebackers on the field against 11, almost 60% of the time.
23:51But it was only on first down because that's when the run pass splits are highest.
23:57So like we're going to play the run no matter what.
24:00And we're going to figure it out. And then, you know, if we need to, Alex Anzalone is going to play in the slot.
24:08Because why not? They had 180 snaps in the slot from their linebackers.
24:12It was hilarious. Second down, specifically against 11 personnel, 26% base.
24:16Massive drop off compared to themselves. Still the second highest rate of base against 11 on second down.
24:21I think the Raiders were the only one that were higher.
24:25And then third down against 11. They played base only about 7% of the time.
24:30It was pretty much only in short yardage because again, run pass splits were going to be higher.
24:36So that tells me it was not a matchup based defense.
24:39It was a percentage based defense. And it had some mixed results.
24:43I think for a team that wanted to play that much man coverage and match up size on size, when it comes
24:50to how much man coverage they had to play.
24:53Right. Alex Anceloni was the anti-tight end guy. Jack Campbell was your anti-running back guy.
24:58And then Brian Branch or another safety whose name is escaping me.
25:02Like he would be there. If they went up against 11 personnel, they needed to have a smaller body on a slot receiver.
25:09That's who would do it. That can work playing that much man coverage.
25:14But only if your other corners can do it.
25:16And we've talked about this many times on the series with man heavy teams where, hey, you have a sauce gardener.
25:23And you're the Jets. You play a lot of man coverage, but oops, nobody else can cover.
25:29Or, you know, maybe we have two great corners, but oops, our linebackers can't cover or our safeties can't cover.
25:35Detroit was the opposite. Their linebackers and safeties could cover.
25:38Their corners couldn't cover. Even DJ Reed didn't have his best year, but Amik Robertson got torn apart.
25:44Taron Arnold, for various reasons, not having a good last 12 months.
25:48I'll just say that. So, yeah, Lions fans were like, please, for the love of God, get us a corner because we're
25:55just going to keep calling man coverage. But the guys outside keep losing their battles.
26:00I find this defense fascinating just because philosophically speaking, they're so different than everybody else.
26:05But I don't think it's going to work until they figure out their outside corner situation.
26:10Maybe that's going to necessitate a trade around week six to week seven, right?
26:15When some team's out of it and there's a corner up for sale like Sauce was last year.
26:21But I don't think they're going to see their maximum potential as a defense until they figure that out because they cannot
26:28go through another year of it's just bombs away outside because we're playing man.
26:32And everybody knows we're playing man. And we can't stop, you know, insert great X receiver here.
26:38Yeah. Yeah. One of the reasons that they can play man at that rate is, again, players and capabilities.
26:44And we did a show, oh, about a month, month and a half back at this point where we did the best
26:51players 25 and under in the NFL. And we had to pick a starting lineup.
26:56And when I got to middle linebacker, it was down to two guys.
27:00It was Carson Schlesinger, who obviously had a great rookie season, and Jack Campbell, who is not yet 26.
27:06So he counts. And I assumed that Campbell would have the better run splits in terms of run defense and that he
27:13would get blown off the map because Carson Schlesinger, younger, more mobile, better in pass coverage.
27:18That was certainly the M.O. on him coming out of college.
27:22And I thought, yeah, OK, Campbell will give up some versus the path, but maybe the run splits will be enough to
27:29sort of tilt it in his favor. But I really went into that sort of position battle thinking that Schlesinger was going to get that spot for me.
27:38In the end, Campbell got that spot for me because he was straight up better than Schlesinger against the pass.
27:45Now, Schlesinger is younger and less experienced. So if you're going on the growth model, you selected Schlesinger.
27:51I get it. Like, it's just betting on who's going to who's going to hit their ceiling.
27:56Campbell is a much better player against the pass.
27:59And we talk about big bodies and base and, you know, classic four or three stuff.
28:04And, you know, a lot of teams can't do that because their middle linebacker ain't Jack Campbell, like does not play that well against the pass.
28:13So even when they get, quote unquote, caught on the run pass split thinking, oh, this is probably a run heavy down
28:20and somebody comes out and throws or does play action.
28:23Campbell is not a liability against the pass. He's one of the better middle linebackers.
28:28He's not Fred Warner. Let's be honest. But in terms of, hey, who is though?
28:33Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, he's not one of the 10 greatest linebackers ever.
28:37Oh, no. Here's here's my mini soapbox on that.
28:40When somebody's talking about a tackle coming out, you know, in previous episode, we were talking about, oh, they drafted this great tackle.
28:48Somebody's like, well, when he goes up against Miles Garrett, I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh.
28:53Miles Garrett just set the single season sack record.
28:56Nobody's stopping that guy. Nobody has. Nobody's gonna. Why are we bringing him up?
29:00Because nobody can do it. Not in the pros.
29:03Not in college. If you find one, you know, they're as rare as hen's teeth.
29:08It's not happening. And can we just say something like, hey, in week 17, when he goes up against edge rusher four
29:15on a team that's beset by injuries, he's probably going to do just fine.
29:20Nobody says that. Everybody picks the preeminent example. But Campbell is a very good linebacker against the pass.
29:26And it allows Kelvin Shepard to call this defense in that way and say, even when we get got, we're probably going to be OK.
29:34We're not going to give up an explosive touchdown.
29:37Like, we're going to limit the gains and that's going to put us in a decent down and distance for the next set.
29:44Even if we get into a fresh set of downs, we will play at, to your point, the percentages.
29:50And the percentages of Jack Campbell against the pass are better than a lot of people, I think, realize.
29:56So we've talked a little bit about Petsing. We've talked a little bit about Shep.
30:01We're going to talk about the rest of the coaching staff, as well as one Mr.
30:06Brad Holmes on the other side when we get to 2026.
30:10Hi, Alternate Timeline Brett here. Before we get to all the 2026 stuff, if you've liked a lot of the data that
30:17we brought up so far, we have companion infographics for every single team, including the one we're talking about today.
30:24With over 15,000 total data points that we have collected throughout this summer, each team gets its own companion infographic, which is roughly about 20 pages long.
30:32It has all the data on this team you can think of, whether it's alignment data, personnel data, cap allocation, coverage data
30:39broken out by down and distance, blitz data. I mean, basically anything you can think of, we've got it.
30:46So if you want access to that, you can find that down at the link in the description below or at the QR code on the screen.
30:54A reminder, we also have bonus episodes that go live every single Friday over on Patreon, recapping every single division.
31:01We're going to pick division winners, MVPs, Rookies of the Year, all that stuff.
31:05So if you want bonus episodes, plus more data than you could probably handle, that is over on the Patreon.
31:12Thank you once again to all of our patrons that have made, honestly, this series possible to make in the first place.
31:19We could not have paid the people who help us make it without your guys' financial support.
31:24So thank you to our patrons. Thank you to all of our executive producers on Patreon.
31:30Their names are on screen right now. They have been OG supporters of us and made so much in our lives possible
31:37while we try to chase this dream. So thank you.
31:40Thank you. Thank you. And with that, let's get back to the show.
31:44All right. Second half of the show, which really is like the second 70% of the show in all these episodes, but it's fine.
31:52We're splitting it up by half. We're going to get to 2026, but I kind of want to jumble up the format
31:59here because typically when we do our patron questions or patron notes, we do those at the end.
32:05I want to drag that up to right here because it's about Brad Holmes.
32:09It's about the top decision maker in the power structure.
32:13And we always start with the GM. This comes from Logan Parkinson.
32:17I thought it was a great question to TSO off here.
32:20He says many people in Detroit have started to change their narrative on Brad Holmes, the 2024 draft class, the lack of
32:27big free agent signings and the Darion situation, which I don't think they really could have seen that coming, but it's fine.
32:34Moving on. There is this feeling that Brad Holmes is more of a scout that will identify quote unquote his guy, e.g.
32:41Tesla, Manu, et cetera. My biggest question with Brad is how he attacked this offseason regarding our secondary.
32:47Kirby may never play football again. Branch won't be back till Thanksgiving.
32:51Tarion was struggling before we released him, which yes, he absolutely was.
32:55If you want to criticize it, maybe it's just the pick from the start.
33:00Plus, they must have known something about his federal case.
33:03All NFL teams have ex-FBI agents on their staff.
33:06I don't know. I have no idea. He finishes.
33:09Long story short, what the hell was Brad thinking this offseason?
33:12Do you feel he's committed GM malpractice? I want to read off the 2024 draft class because Logan's not the only Lions
33:19fan that brought this up over on the Patreon.
33:22They want blood for the 2024 draft class. For sure.
33:25It is in order. Terry Nardold, first round. Enos Raikstra, second round.
33:29Giovanni Manu, fourth round. Sione Vaki, also fourth round.
33:32Makai Wingo in the sixth. And then Christian Mahogany, who I haven't praised yet on this show.
33:38At least since he got drafted. Also in the sixth round.
33:41That's a bad draft. Right? You have zero plus starters from that class.
33:46Your first round pick after two seasons is no longer on the team for good reason.
33:51You've gotten nothing really from anybody else. And the one guy who does start hasn't been a good starter for you.
33:57I understand the criticism of Holmes because of that.
34:00However, if we look at the two draft classes before and after that.
34:05Jameer Gibbs, Jack Campbell, Sam Laporta, Brian Branch were all four of his first picks in order in 2023.
34:11In 2025, you got Tylek Williams, Tate Rallage, who's the better starting guard of the two.
34:16Isaac Tesla, who's flashed. And then we haven't really seen everybody else yet to, you know, Frazier, Jackson, Lovett.
34:22But we haven't seen them enough to, like, really determine what they're going to be.
34:27But again, we're talking about day three picks. So even if they're nothing, it's kind of expected.
34:32And then this year, we love the Blake Miller pick.
34:36He was one of the safest tackles in the draft.
34:39You and I love Derek Moore. We love the other Michigan player, Jimmy Rolder, who didn't get a lot of love there but was a talented linebacker prospect.
34:48Like, we'll get into the draft later in the show.
34:51But I just look at the last four classes.
34:54If that's the only one that is a complete swing and a miss, considering all the other talent that he's brought in.
35:01I mean, shit, before that, it was Aiden. It was Jamo.
35:05It was Kirby. Malcolm Rodriguez. It's not like he's picking a lot of bad players here.
35:10He just had one really, really shit year. And that's in hindsight, right?
35:14With the benefit of hindsight, you can say, well, that's a shit draft.
35:18At the time, again, this cracks me up because everybody's clamoring for corners.
35:23What did he do? He drafted two corners who were well-regarded right off the top.
35:27Now, they haven't worked out for completely different reasons.
35:30But I liked Rick Strachoid a bit and I really liked Terryon Arnold and very few people did not.
35:37That's the thing to remember. Pre-draft, Terryon Arnold had very few detractors for his play on the field, which, again, is what we see.
35:44We talk about, you know, third, third. Talk about play on the field.
35:48Talk about testing, which we see. And then there's the third, third.
35:52The off-field stuff. You want to talk about FBI agents and background checks and all that other stuff.
35:58We don't get that. We don't get medical reports.
36:01We don't have insight to that part of the process.
36:04For his play on the field, Terryon Arnold was very well-regarded.
36:08I thought Rick Strachoid was an inspired pick. I liked him.
36:11I thought he had value. Some people said it was too high.
36:15But as a player overall, I thought he had potential and thought he would be a playable NFL corner.
36:21So if you are clamoring for, why doesn't my GM pick corners?
36:25You're just upset because the two corners he did pick at the top of the draft.
36:31We're not talking about waiting until day three and throwing some darts.
36:34Didn't work out. Like, that happens to the best of them.
36:38But one of the benefits of this series is that we get to go end-to-end in the NFL.
36:44We get to look in-depth at every roster. We've done 10 of these shows so far.
36:49Dude, some of these teams are bad. And this roster, I'm going to take issue with the last line, which is, has he committed GML practice?
36:57I have seen one Ryan Grigson. And honestly, one of the few former NFL executives that I might punch in the face if I saw him in person.
37:06Like, that's GM malpractice. This is so far from that.
37:10When we look at other rosters around the league, there are multiple rosters I can go through where they do not have
37:17a star at, I would say, even four or five position groups.
37:21If you look at the Lions, offense and defense, I would argue a star at quarterback, a star at running back, at
37:28least one star at wide receiver, a star previously at tight end.
37:32Offensive line, Penny Sewell, easily an all-pro star, right?
37:35Defensive lineman, you got an all-pro edge. You've got Jack Campbell, who we just talked about, at linebacker.
37:40And Brian Branch, although he didn't play like it last year, and I will give you that, in the two previous seasons, he played really well.
37:49So, you've got to star at every level of your team.
37:52That is an embarrassment of riches compared to many rosters in the NFL.
37:57So, it's very hard for me to look at Brad Holmes and the overall job, not just corner.
38:02It's very easy to nitpick a position group. In fact, almost all GMs have an Achilles heel that they just don't pick well.
38:10Some teams, it's quarterback, which is a real bummer.
38:13Some teams, it's edge rusher. Some teams, it's corner, wide receiver, you name it.
38:17They just can't get them, and they end up having to trade for them or sign them as they become cast-offs from other teams.
38:25Every team is like that. When you look at the overall roster quality, and the roster quality, quite frankly, before Brad Holmes
38:32arrived, and after Brad Holmes has been in charge, it's night and day difference.
38:37I cannot sit here and in good conscience say, Oh yeah, it's GML practice because he picked a couple of corners that didn't work out.
38:45Now, they didn't work out. I get that. You're talking about Rakus Sin as your number one corner going into this year, which is not a great situation.
38:54I'm not going to sit here and say it is.
38:57But when you look at everything else on this team, you're sitting pretty roster-wise.
39:02This is a very well-assembled roster. He has picked players that work well within the system, both on offense and defense.
39:08Again, you might take that for granted in Detroit now, but there are a lot of places in the NFL where that
39:16is not the regular mode of operation. So I'm not saying you should lay down and worship Brad Holmes at his feet.
39:23I'm also saying please don't run him out of town.
39:26The grass is not always greener on the other side.
39:29And Logan, again, we're not singling you out. I deeply appreciate the comment.
39:33But it does feel like when I see some other Lions fans that are more negative than you about this, it just
39:41looks like somebody leaving a restaurant review saying, Oh, my steak was too juicy and my lobster was too buttery.
39:47It's like, okay, come on now. Like, let's be right.
39:50You could be so much worse. You have been so much worse in the past.
39:55And once you, like corner to me is like a finishing piece position anyway.
40:00Like so many teams have drafted a corner who's like really, really good.
40:04And, and, and they're like, yes, we finally got the guy, but like the rest of the team sucks and corner.
40:11The reason why corner, as far as cap percentages have gone down over the last 10 years for the average top 10
40:18corner contract is because they're not really a foundational piece.
40:21They're a finishing piece. Once you get everything else, you plop a good corner in there and you're good to go.
40:28They just need to find that finishing piece. I don't know how or when Lord knows they've tried, but I do think they will get one eventually.
40:37Maybe possibly, hopefully, hopefully, please. God, yes. Get anybody that can cover anybody.
40:41As for the rest of the power structure, good staff here each.
40:45Yeah, for sure. Dan Campbell has been a rock as the head coach of this team.
40:50Introspective, definitely relates well to players, understands his role, takes it very seriously, and has been wildly effective since taking over as the head coach at Detroit Lions.
40:59I don't think we need to talk about Dan a whole lot.
41:03The associate head coach and wide receivers coach is Scotty Montgomery.
41:06They think of him very highly. That's why he has the associate head coach title.
41:11They would like to try to keep him and not have him leave and be an offensive coordinator somewhere else.
41:18That's their attempt to do that. The offensive coordinator, Drew Petsing.
41:21We talked about him. Defensive coordinator, Calvin Shepard. And the special teams coordinator is Dave Phipp.
41:26Now, when we get into the coaches, I'm going to talk about some of the insulation, some of the help that the
41:33staff provides, Drew Petsing, so he does not have to do the pass game by himself.
41:39You said Jared Goff could probably do it by himself at this point in his career.
41:44I think you're probably right. He does not need to.
41:47They have no shortage of brains in the passing game.
41:50The QB coach is Mark Brunel, one former Husky and Jaguar, who has been there for a while.
41:56Now, the pass game coordinator is Mike Kafka, who was an OC before.
42:00And the pass game specialist, again, this is atypical for to have this many people involved, specifically in the pass game, is
42:07David Shaw, the former head coach at Stanford, who was for many years courted while he was at the CFB level to
42:15come to the NFL and was like, nah, I got a good gig in Stanford.
42:19Finally jumps to the NFL, ends up in Detroit, and they have what is a literal brain trust of offensive firepower, specifically focused on the pass game.
42:28Drew Petsing can coordinate one hell of a running game, leave the passing game to those guys and Goff, and they should be just fine.
42:36That is more firepower than most teams. Again, a lot to that specific piece of the offense.
42:42Run game coordinator and offensive line coach, Hank Fraley, longtime NFL offensive lineman, super well respected.
42:47Many people think he will be an OC in the league sooner rather than later.
42:52We'll see. Didn't Ben try to poach him, by the way?
42:55Yes. Ben wanted to take him to Chicago, and Dan said, that's a bridge too far.
43:01We're keeping him. So Ben has great respect for him, as do many other coaches around the league.
43:06I think Hank is probably a future offensive coordinator.
43:09We'll see about head coach. I think it's a little bit tougher coming from the offensive line side and the run game side.
43:17Typically, the passing wizards get those head coach spots sooner, but Hank may be the guy that bucks the trend there.
43:23Running back coach, Deshard Choice. And the offensive assistant is Marquez Tuiasosopo.
43:27So this staff has two former Husky quarterbacks on it, which is just that kind of fun.
43:33Defensive pass game coordinator and defensive backs coach is Deshae Townsend, longtime stealer.
43:37Defensive run game coordinator and defensive line coach is Casey Rogers.
43:41And as we mentioned before, offensive assistant is Dan Skipper.
43:44That made me do a double take. I was like, wait.
43:47I went down to the losses section of free agency, and I was like, he played for them last year.
43:54So here is Dan Campbell looking at one of his players and saying, I think you can help us on the other side.
44:01Dan Skipper retires, is immediately made a coach with the Detroit Lions.
44:05And we say it every year, but even when there's turnover on this staff, it's the same theme, right?
44:11It's former player, former player, former player, former player.
44:14Like they love former players as coaches in Detroit.
44:17And a lot of them have worked out. I'll say that.
44:21All right, let's get to free agency. We'll see.
44:24We'll start with departures. It's going to be a lot of Brad Holmes talk today.
44:29I didn't expect that, but here we are. Taylor Decker, he is no longer with the Lions.
44:34Obviously a longtime Lion, played a lot of good football for them.
44:38But, you know, it was about that time watching him play last year.
44:42It's just not the same anymore. Could potentially still play this season.
44:46It just won't be with Detroit as of us recording this on July 7th.
44:51Graham Glasgow, same story. Long time Lion, multiple stints with the Lions.
44:54His best football has left him, to put it kindly, got replaced by Mays.
44:59Tarion Arnold. I don't even know where to begin with this, so I'm just going to say Google it.
45:05No longer with the Lions. Marcus Davenport, gone. Josh Paschal, boy, I had high hopes for him.
45:11Didn't work out. Gone. Dan Skipper, not really. Still there, just in different capacity.
45:15Kalief Raymond, he is now with Chicago and a very valued piece in Chicago there.
45:20Alex Anzalone is now with Tampa, so really fascinated to see how that affects their defensive philosophy, considering he played the most
45:27snaps in the slot of all their linebackers. It wasn't even Campbell.
45:31It was Anzalone. Al-Kadeem Muhammad is also with Tampa.
45:34Roy Lopez is with the Cardinals. I think with his second stint.
45:38Might be third at this point with Arizona. Every other year, I feel like he's down in Phoenix.
45:44Amik Robertson is with the Commanders, because that's what they need.
45:47More DBs they can't cover. And then DJ Reader is with the Giants.
45:51And Dave Montgomery got traded to the Texans to be their new bell cow.
45:56Well, maybe not bell cow, but lead back. Lead back, I would say, is fair.
46:01And I think he'll excel in that role. We'll talk about that when we get to the Houston episode.
46:07But overall, the sort of theme for me on this moving on sheet, losses sheet, whatever you want to call it, is
46:14a lot of folks on the defensive line that we've had high hopes for, whether it's Josh Paschal or, you know, DJ Reader coming in.
46:22We thought, oh, that'll make a difference. You know, I got to say it, and it pains me greatly as a Chicago Bears fan.
46:30Al-Kadeem Muhammad had a career resurgence in Detroit last year, which sucks because he was an absolute nothing the year before for
46:37the Bears, but parlayed it into a very nice contract moving to the Buccaneers.
46:42And, you know, there's just a lot of turnover.
46:44Marcus Davenport, same thing, was an import. And we thought, hey, maybe he'll find his footing in Detroit, and that'll help Aiden.
46:52Like, all of this is, we need to help Aiden.
46:55And even when we get to the resign portion, which I'm covering, there's more defensive line talk there.
47:01It starts off with, you know, Levi on Uzurike, another guy that we had super high hopes for, has flashed, but at
47:08the same time has struggled to stay on the field and stay healthy.
47:12Jack Campbell, the aforementioned Jack Campbell, played 99.3% of their snaps, to your point.
47:16One of the highest rates of, you know, base bodies in the NFL.
47:21Rock you sin. Looking like a great re-signing right now because he's going to be CB1 for $3 million.
47:27Not their choice, not their previous plan, but where they're ending up.
47:31And then one of your favorites, Malcolm Rodriguez, re-signed for a very affordable $2.7 million and plays very well in a role for them.
47:39Didn't play a ton of snaps last year, but the year before did and was very effective.
47:44And you could do worse for backup linebacker slash special teamer than Malcolm Rodriguez for, you know, less than $3 million.
47:51I'll take that any day. As far as outside acquisitions, a lot of names here.
47:56Isaiah Pacheco is going to be, I know higher than RB2, obviously, but potentially RB3 here.
48:01We'll see. Tyler Conklin also brought over from the Chargers to add to the tight end room because they like big bodies that can block.
48:09And even then, he's, at this point, he's an okay blocker.
48:12He's not a bad blocker. He's an okay blocker.
48:15But they got Kohler with the Chargers for a reason.
48:19They wanted to upgrade there. Christian Isian, he has a history of being a safety that also plays in the slot.
48:25So he absolutely fits their mold. I would imagine that while Branch is coming off injury, he might actually get some run here in the Branch role.
48:34And he played well in his first year in Tampa as a rookie.
48:38Like, he was excellent, you know, to start his career there.
48:42So we'll see if he can kind of get that back.
48:45But again, if you get somebody who's going to play a significant amount of snaps for you in an important role for $2 million, that's good.
48:54And then Greg Dorch. I just love Greg Dorch.
48:57Clearly, Petsing does as well. Brought him over with him from Arizona.
49:01You know, slot receiver extraordinaire. They're interested to see where he fits with Amon Ra.
49:06Maybe if they want to put Amon Ra outside, but they want a separator still to be in the slot.
49:12You put them both on the field next to each other?
49:16I don't know. We'll see. But good player. And he cost him a million and a half.
49:21Like, I like that contract a lot. Yeah, I too am a Dorch bearer.
49:26Love it. Holding out hope for Greg Dorch's eventual ascension in the league, I think his landing spot in Detroit is as good a place as any.
49:34Hope springs eternal for that. Roger McCreary. Is he secretly the CB1 in Detroit?
49:39At only $1.4 million? I guess we'll see. Uh, DJ Wanham they brought over from the Panthers to add to the edge rotation.
49:46And then Cade Mays, not just their most expensive player they signed, also by far the best player they signed.
49:53You know, get a quality starting center at 8.3 when the current center market, the top of the center market is over three times that.
50:01Incredible contract, all things considered. Yeah. This was really about all these additions to me.
50:06A ton of backups on the offensive line. Again, when we go back to the question from Logan earlier, what was Brad Holmes thinking in the offseason?
50:14He was thinking, I need to be two and three layers deep on the offensive line.
50:20I'm going to go get Ben Bartsch. I'm going to go get Larry Borum.
50:24I'm going to go get Juice Scruggs and play him at guard.
50:28I'm going to go, you know, add Cade Mays and every other level.
50:32Now, Mays is a starter, but the rest of those guys are backups.
50:36But they needed backups, too, because they have seen what it looks like when their starters get injured and they don't have quality players.
50:44He went out with the shotgun approach and said, I am going to sign a bunch of these guys, bring them in, see where they fit.
50:53We're going to put our best five on and then we're going to have our next best five right behind them.
50:59Because we are aware that we are probably not going to get through a 17 game season with a full starting five.
51:07So what are we going to do? And the answer is not the same thing we did last year.
51:13That gets us to the draft. We've already mentioned several of these names.
51:17We'll touch on them here again. They start off in the first round, 17th overall pick.
51:22This one, I don't want to say it was chalk, but when he was available, it felt like, oh, please just do it.
51:30And they did. They went and got Blake Miller, a right tackle out of Clemson, as you said, incredibly experienced player.
51:36Our buddy Trevor Sykema from the NFL Stock Exchange has been literally singing Blake Miller's praises for the last three and a half years.
51:44And this year he finally gets to announce the team that he gets to go to in the NFL.
51:50And it's a very good fit with Detroit, as long as they're going to move Penny to left, which I think he is entirely capable of.
51:59Blake Miller slots in it right. And I think that's one of the higher ceilings for a starting tackle selected in this year's draft.
52:06I know it feels like Penny has played right forever, but like people forget he played left in college.
52:13The only reason he played right in the NFL is because they had Decker and they felt better about moving Penny than
52:20moving Decker because Penny is Penny and you can do whatever.
52:23But similar story to Tristan Wirfs, like they they put Tristan Wirfs at right in Tampa because they had options at left
52:30and they didn't have options at left. So like, well, fuck it.
52:34Let's put Tristan over there and then we'll get the new right tackle.
52:38And it's worked out for them. So I think it's going to work out for Detroit as well.
52:44Like Miller is. A experienced and be really athletic, tested extremely well.
52:48I do want to give you a stat here on Miller career.
52:52Pass blocking snaps in college with real, actual God fearing red blooded American drop back passes.
52:57Not screens, not RPOs, not like, you know, one step and throw like actual drop back passes.
53:03539. Monroe Freeling had 180. Yeah. In his college career.
53:06So nobody like literally nobody else in this class, even Malinoa, who played a lot of years in college or at least.
53:13Started for three straight years in college, had only 480.
53:16Cade Procter at 426. Spencer Fano at 319. Like Blake Miller is experienced and he played against some really good edge rushers in college.
53:24Like he played against fucking Jared Verse. Like he he knows what he's doing.
53:29So I have no worries about him immediately, you know, starting and playing in the NFL.
53:34If any young tackle can do it, you know, without missing a beat, I think I think it's going to be him.
53:41Now, is he as physically gifted as like Armand Membu?
53:44No, but he's still a plus athlete even at the NFL level.
53:48So physical profile, experience, maturity. Like I got to talk to him a little bit at the combine.
53:54Like seems like a really solid chill dude, you know, to have in the room.
53:59Just a plus across the board. I love that pick as long as he stays healthy.
54:04Absolutely plug and play. And that is not something you could say about a ton of the tackles in this draft.
54:11He is one of them. The only pick they have on day two is 44 in the second round.
54:17Derek Moore, the edge out of Michigan, who I thought was pretty underrated in this edge class.
54:22And I think it's probably because he didn't do anything exceptionally well.
54:26He didn't. He wasn't super flashy, but he has a lot of traits that we really like.
54:32He has a plan. He has power. He has decent length and he knows how to use it.
54:38Can compress the pocket. I thought he was a very consistent edge.
54:41I thought he could rush in several different ways.
54:44Now, speed, flash, bend, more dip than bend. But again, his profile, both physically and how he uses it, are both very effective at the NFL level.
54:53I thought he probably should have received a little bit more love.
54:57I like Derek Moore's selection. I think more than some people.
55:01I know there was some sighs from Detroit fans going, oh, we're just doing local scouting again.
55:06What is this? Well, unless they're a Michigan fan, in which case they're like, yeah, sick.
55:11Fuck yeah. True. But if they're a Michigan State fan, oh, God, here we go again.
55:16Yeah. What are we doing? I thought the Derek Moore selection was solid.
55:21And I think it will pay dividends again in a sort of Blake Miller tone.
55:25It sort of set the tone at the top of this draft.
55:29Round one, round two. Both very solid players who have a solid track record from college of production, of playing well, of having a physical profile that translates.
55:38Neither one were flashy or exceptional, but they're both high level solid players.
55:43And I think that justified their selections where they were picked for both of them.
55:47It does kind of feel like the front office was, okay, we've hit our home runs.
55:53Let's get some doubles. Yep. Here. All right. Let's get on base.
55:57And Blake Miller gets you on base. Derek Moore gets you on base.
56:01He's got a power profile. He can consistently crush the pocket.
56:04You know, he's never going to be a Batman, but they don't need him to be there.
56:10He already have one. You know, get ourselves a Robin.
56:13I think he can be that. At worst, he can be an Alfred.
56:17We'll take that because if our interior is full of Robins or at least has a Robin on it, he can be an Alfred.
56:25I like to pick a lot. And I adored their fourth rounder, Jimmy Rolder, also from Michigan.
56:31Went higher than some people expected because he was a, you know, 118 overall.
56:35And if you weren't a Michigan fan, people are like, Jimmy Rolder, who the hell is that?
56:41Man, watch the Michigan defense on tape. This kid flies around.
56:44I really, really like this pick. You know, it's going to be tough for him to get snaps as a rookie, but
56:51as much as I love Malcolm Rodriguez, he could challenge for Malcolm Rodriguez's role as the third guy.
56:57He absolutely could. Yeah, I think the combination of Rolder and Rodriguez is, again, the sort of money balling a linebacker in the aggregate.
57:05Malcolm Rodriguez, far better in space and against the pass.
57:08Rolder is technically so freaking sound as a linebacker.
57:11And I think that is a trait that gets overlooked in the modern NFL.
57:16So how fast can he run? Can he get sideline to sideline?
57:19How is he down the field against a slot receiver?
57:23Whereas you still got to watch the snap, diagnose the gap, shed a block, get square, fill the gap.
57:29Jimmy Rolder is exceptional at that stuff. I'm not saying that's all he could do.
57:34I think he's better in the other areas than people give him credit for.
57:38But that baseline, that baseline of physical linebacker diagnosis and play.
57:42I believe you call it linebackery things. Very linebackery things.
57:45Jimmy Rolder is high in his linebackery things index.
57:48That is without a doubt. And because of that, he was higher in my rankings than a lot of people had him in the inside linebacker rankings.
57:57And I just said, look, go watch the tape.
58:00Like, show me where he falls off. He is right where he needs to be a high percentage of the time to
58:07get him in the fourth round at 118. I know a lot of people thought it was early.
58:12He had a lot of supporters. Lance Erlein was another guy that I reached out to him because I saw he was pretty high in Lance's rank.
58:21After I did mine, I was like, Jimmy Rolder.
58:24He was like, yeah, right? I was like, yeah, absolutely.
58:27He is a solid player when he gets picked for Detroit.
58:31Again, with their history of selecting linebackers, Campbell Rodriguez, like Rolder.
58:34So fits the mold. And I really think Kelvin Shepard, again, a former linebacker himself.
58:39This is a very good fit with an underrated player.
58:43Getting into the fifth round. So Keith Abney went later than a lot of people expected, but I think it depends on the skill set you're looking for.
58:52Right? And I think in an era where teams like size at corner, they like press ability at corner.
58:58You know, he was going to slip a little bit because of that, because his style is really more, I'm going to play off.
59:06I'm going to play in space. I'm going to drive in the ball.
59:10I'm great in zone. You know, I win with instincts and quickness in a 10 yard area.
59:15Right? And without being a super big guy, it's just a lot of teams.
59:20That's not going to be their flavor. Detroit ended up getting them in the fifth round.
59:25I am very curious to see where he plays.
59:28Right? Is he outside? Is he inside? Just because I do think this team is still going to play a lot of man.
59:35And I don't necessarily see him as like that kind of guy for them outside.
59:40But if they want to play more zone and have eyes on and make a play on the ball, try to generate
59:47some more turnovers, I think you could do that for him.
59:51Like, again, great kid. Very well prepared. Like, I had him when I was at the combine.
59:56I had him just walk me through like what he studies pre-snap from receivers.
60:01And he was rattling off like a 10 list thing of just like his whole checklist pre-snap of what he looks for.
60:08I was like, okay, like he, you don't got to teach him anything.
60:12Like, he knows what he's doing. So, it's really just a question of what do you want him to be doing?
60:19Because if you want to play press man, that's not really his world.
60:23If you want him to play off, and even if you're okay with him playing like how James Pierre played with the
60:30Steelers last year where they play a lot of man coverage, but they let James Pierre play it off.
60:36If you're okay with that, okay, now we're cooking here.
60:40But I'm, I don't know, it's one of those words.
60:43I like the player. The fit's kind of weird.
60:46But if there's something I don't know about what their style is going to be this year, then I think that fit could work.
60:54Yeah, I love the player. He flashed for me early on tape, late October, early November, watched Keith Abney and thought, wow,
61:01I haven't heard this guy's name a lot. I mean, you know, why aren't people talking about this cat?
61:07And he's not as small as you think. He's 5'10", 187.
61:10Like, he's right on the edge of like, that's pretty solid.
61:14If he was 5'11", 190, would you look sideways at it for a corner in the NFL?
61:20I don't think you would. A lot of people think he's miscast.
61:23You know, they think he should be a slot.
61:26They didn't think so in college. He played 725 snaps outside and 13 in the slot.
61:31He was an outside corner in college, folks. Some other highlights from Keith Abney.
61:36Missed tackle percentage, second lowest in this class at 4.3%.
61:39He gets guys on the ground, did not give up a TD in coverage, and had the second most PBUs at 9 in this class.
61:47NFL passer rating against was a paltry 46.1 when people threw his way.
61:52So, really like Keith Abney. I know he doesn't have ideal size, but he's not tiny.
61:57He's not one of these guys that's, you know, 5'9", 175.
62:00So, really think, again, Sun Devil out of Arizona State has a future in the league.
62:05It is going to have to be in the right system.
62:09He is not going to line up in press, and he is not probably going to line up in the slot.
62:16You want to play him outside, you want to play him off, I think he will find the field.
62:22The other pick in the fifth round at 168, Kendrick Law, the wide receiver out of Kentucky.
62:27Had his fans. How did you feel about Kendrick Law?
62:31Because I sort of, I went on a roller coaster with Kendrick Law.
62:35There was a bunch of hype as a sort of more gadgety type player because he does have great change of direction skills and everything else.
62:43There was kind of a dip when I looked at his analytic profile.
62:48And then when I watched him on tape, I went, hmm, I don't know.
62:52Again, depending on where he lands, he could be fun.
62:55But receivers typically that I've had to say that about in the past, like, oh, they could carve out a role.
63:02Or if they just get him the ball in space.
63:05And I was like, that doesn't happen in the NFL.
63:09You got to be able to run through the base offense if you're going to get a bunch of touches.
63:15So where'd you fall on Kendrick Law? I was excited to see him compete for either, again, that gadgety type role.
63:22Or is he going to be the jet sweep guy, the screen guy?
63:26Or could he be a kick returner for us?
63:29And then the news came across that he got put on IR with injury last month.
63:34And I was like, oh, well. Like, I guess none of them.
63:38I guess we'll see later. Yep. You know, he's really fast.
63:42He's really, really explosive in short areas. Like, there's something there.
63:45Right. I don't know what it is yet. We're not going to find out for a while.
63:51But, again, fifth rounder? Yeah. For a guy that explosive?
63:54Sure. Yeah. And in the sixth round, pick 205.
63:57They get Skyler Gilhauer, the defensive tackle out of Texas Tech.
64:00To me, this is the Anwuzurike understudy slash potential replacement.
64:04Undersized three tech who is a penetrator. That is the most exciting thing about his tape.
64:09If you want him to get skinny and blast through the offensive line and disrupt the flow of offensive run plays, Skyler Gilhauer is your guy.
64:17Doesn't have necessarily the greatest pass rush production when you look at percentages.
64:21But if you look at, say, his five to eight best pass rush plays from last year, they're as good as some
64:29of the best three techs in this class. He is undersized.
64:32He is not going to be an every down DT unless he adds some weight.
64:37And I'm not necessarily sure that he can or that they need him to.
64:41He is really going to be coming in on those NASCAR third down packages, rotating in on pass only situations where they
64:49are going to say, go mess crap up. Like, go see if you can get somebody turned sideways.
64:54Because if you can, he is quick enough to flash to the quarterback, put up a hand in their face and get
65:02a pressure, which is not going to say equally important to a sack.
65:06It's not, but it's close. And that was his specialty at Texas Tech.
65:10I think he'll probably get about 15 snaps a game, right?
65:13But it's 15 snaps of fire and brimstone. Like you're coming in on a third and medium or longer.
65:20I don't think he's going to get early down work and that's okay.
65:24They don't need him to. He is very much a, a, a DPR, but an inside DPR.
65:29We think of DPRs as, you know, the, the 240 pound edge that you bring in on it's not that DPR DT interior DPR.
65:37Yeah. It's not a bad player to have on the roster.
65:41I like his ability to screw up offenses because he does it quickly.
65:45And again, if you can get interior pressure, it's even more valuable than exterior pressure because it's the shortest path of the quarterback.
65:52And the quarterback has less time to react if he is able to punch through the offensive line.
65:58And when he does it, it is in an absolute flash.
66:02Their last pick in the seventh round, 222. Tyree West, the edge out of Tennessee.
66:07You know, this is a dart throw. This is a hope he can contribute, possibly a practice squatter.
66:12There's a reason he went in the seventh round.
66:15You know, not a bad player, but a player that when I watched on tape, I came away whelmed.
66:21I, I had, it's funny. I had a borderline draftable grade on him.
66:26I was like, if somebody likes him in the room, they might spend a pick on him, but he's probably going to
66:33be a UDFA goes 30 picks before the end of the draft.
66:37He got drafted specifically by this program because there's a play against Bama where they had a breakaway touchdown.
66:43And he, I mean, he was chugging from behind and gave every ounce of energy he had to track it down and save a TD against Bama.
66:52That's why he got drafted for this team. They are addicted to effort, right?
66:56He is a, a stockier kind of pass rusher has some fluidity to him, but, um, you know, it doesn't necessarily have
67:03the physical profile that typically translates in the league, but he plays with high effort.
67:08And I mean, that's catnip for lions. It really is.
67:11Is he going to make the final 53? Eh, maybe, but I think he can make the practice squad as for UDFAs.
67:18Luke Altmaier is a fascinating one for me, right?
67:21Right. Is he the last quarterback that makes the 53?
67:25Is he a practice squad guy? I will be looking at that in camp and as preseason goes on because, you know,
67:32that's not the location that I would have thought a UDFA quarterback would want to go because there's no path to playing time at all.
67:40But also if the goal is get better and develop and then try to get my playing time later after I've already
67:47gotten better as a player, uh, you know, Detroit is actually, pretty good destination for that.
67:52So might be kind of a savvy move for 2029.
67:55Luke Altmaier. We'll see. Um, but I'm really curious to see if he makes the team.
68:00And then Eric Hunter from Morgan state. He had a lot of fans throughout the process with somebody that could have got
68:08drafted on day three, ended up going UDFA. But again, it's a, that's a really interesting room there with, uh, you know,
68:15Campbell and Rodriguez and rolder and Hunter. And it's, there's a lot of guys there now.
68:20Yeah. I don't, you know, I love UDFAs, but I don't keep up for him very often today.
68:26I'm keeping up. I'm on the soapbox for Eric Hunter.
68:29E40 out of Morgan state. Tremendously fascinating player, physically gifted six, four long arms was a jack of everything.
68:35For them was a blitzer was a pass rusher, two different things ran in coverage for them.
68:41Tackles for loss sideline to sideline speed. He was one of my honorable mentions as a defensive gem on bootleg this year.
68:48I really would have liked to see him get drafted.
68:51I think the lions and Brad homes stole one in Eric Hunter.
68:55He has the physical potential and the production coming from college to play in the NFL.
69:00I think he will stick on this team, certainly on special teams because he easily surpasses that threshold.
69:06But if they can find a way, a designated role package of plays for him on defense, he is an incredibly versatile and talented player.
69:14For Altmaier, back to that choice of situation, like Detroit's got a history of doing this, of pulling either late round or
69:21UDFA QBs and making something out of them. Right.
69:24Not just making them into cast off. So that might have factored into his decision.
69:29Those are certainly the two most interesting. Anthony Lucas, the edge at a USC.
69:33I'm kind of hit or miss on, but like, man, I saw Eric Hunter and I was like, oh boy, they got one.
69:41Before we get to ceiling and floor, again, one last reminder.
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70:38And with that, each ceiling and floor. Not that everything that could have gone wrong went wrong last year, but they were pretty close.
70:46And they still won nine games in a very competitive NFC North.
70:49So if golf stays healthy, it's the only scenario in which case this, you know, drops through the basement.
70:56But if golf stays healthy and if Penny stays healthy, you'll say that too.
71:00I can't imagine they win less than eight games.
71:03Like I just, it's not even a conceivable thought to me.
71:07So that's the floor is eight. The ceiling is back at 12.
71:10This could still be a division winning team, right?
71:13The main issue that we talked about last year, like for the entire team was the inconsistency in the run game or
71:20rather the consistent inconsistency or inconsistent consistency. However you want to phrase it of the run game.
71:26It was Jameer Gibbs versus the world offensive line.
71:29Wasn't that great? Other than Penny, that seems to be fixed.
71:32You know, the Petsing higher we'll see, but you know, the staff under Petsing, we like a lot.
71:38Great quarterback, great weapons. Defense. Yeah. Corner still an issue, but like they got everything else.
71:43Why couldn't this be a 12 win team? Why couldn't this be a team that challenges for the one seed and is
71:51right back there with the Rams and the Seahawks and, you know, the Cowboys and the Eagles and all the NFC super teams?
71:58Like, I don't know. Detroit doesn't seem like that much at a disadvantage against them if I'm going like roster for roster.
72:05Yeah. Yeah. No, this is not a team that's far away.
72:09My ceiling, my floor I'll start with is the same as yours.
72:13Eight. I cannot see this team winning less than eight games with Dan Campbell as the head coach, with the coaching talent
72:20we talked about and the talent on the roster.
72:23Winning less than eight games would be some kind of fallout that is, I think, impossible to predict at this point.
72:29My ceiling is 11 because of the NFC North.
72:32It was literally the toughest division in football last year, and it is going to be a slog again this year.
72:39Minnesota is going to be improved. Green Bay is going to be Green Bay, solid as they have been.
72:45And Chicago is probably going to be better, which is a scary thought because, again, their Achilles heel was defense last year.
72:52They lived off of turnovers, but their defense was horrendous.
72:56They've taken steps to change that. And, again, they're getting their health back in the secondary, whereas the offensive line is where Detroit's getting their health back.
73:04So I have their ceiling at 11, but I still see them as a potential division winner.
73:10I still see them as an absolute playoff participant that could go in and make noise, not just make the dance, but
73:17actually win some games because of all the reasons that we've spent the last hour talking about, which is the roster's really solid.
73:24The coaching is very good. Lots of things went wrong last year, and they seem to have addressed most of them.
73:31So I have a feeling they're going to end up in double-digit wins closer to the ceiling than the floor.
73:3810, 11 wins, this is still a team, even out of this division, that could go in and make some noise if they make the playoffs.
73:46And I think they probably will. I think that's much more likely than them falling even further than they did last year.
73:53Now, tomorrow, we are talking about those aforementioned Minnesota Vikings.
73:56But if you want to watch that episode right now, it's live 24 hours early over on Buzzer, as with all of our episodes.
74:04So this is going live Monday on YouTube, but Monday on Buzzer is Vikings Day.
74:09And then after that, we have the Packers? No.
74:12Yes, Packers and then Bears, right? I think it's the other way around.
74:16People think it's a running bit that I don't know the order of the teams.
74:21This is real. I'm actually struggling right now. When you do all 32 and you have to stack them in order correctly, it gets a little deep.
74:30I don't know who's good and who's bad at this point.
74:33I just every day, every day we struggle here.
74:36Anyway, I do know tomorrow is Vikings. So come back tomorrow for that or again today if you want to see it on Buzzer.
74:44Thank you once again to everybody for watching and listening.
74:47Wherever you happen to be watching and listening, all of our patrons, our EPs, our sponsors, everybody.
74:53We'll see you tomorrow. We'll see you tomorrow. Thank you.
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