0:00Hello and welcome to Episode 1008 of the official EstablishTheRun.com podcast.
0:04My name is Adam Levitan and it is time for the summer's most anticipated event.
0:09The battle the entire fantasy football world has been waiting for.
0:12It is time for Man vs. Machine 2026 edition.
0:15In one corner representing the basement dwellers, the quants, the the spreadsheet socialists, the pale ones, the scientists, the no sex havers, the machines.
0:24It is. Michael Leone? Leone, how's it going today?
0:27It's going well. Is this my time for remarks?
0:30This is your time with the floor is yours for remarks, yes?
0:34Okay. I just want to speak to the people from the heart right now.
0:38You know, we have the man ranks on one side, the machine ranks on the other side.
0:44The man ranks, there's no checks and balances over there.
0:47That's a man who's declared himself king and does whatever he wants to help a select few with his rankings.
0:54On the machine side, democratically derived the every person's ranks.
0:57Hard work, hard work, knowledge, anyone can use these ranks to succeed.
1:02It doesn't matter. You know, if you identify with a certain league or you select a certain scoring system, this is the American dream, is the machine ranks.
1:11All right. Well said. In the other corner, representing the grass touchers, the patriots, the ball knowers, the alphas, the intercourse havers, the humans, the men.
1:20It is, of course. Evan Silva. Evan, how's it going today?
1:23It's good to be back. I feel like, you know, we've been doing this for five or six years, but it really
1:31got serious the last two years, I think. And I beat Leoni in 2024, and he won on a technicality with an asterisk last year.
1:39So this, to me, feels like the rubber match year.
1:43Very, very important for both of us. Yes. Stop the steal, if you will, was Evan's mantra from the last results of the man versus machine.
1:51I'm glad to know we're in the it's rigged portion of the Film Bro Fastism timeline.
1:57For anyone not watching this on YouTube, number one, you should be watching this on YouTube.
2:02Number two, though, let me describe the scene here.
2:05Silva is wearing a literal American flag shirt with a historical USA flag hat.
2:10I am wearing a referee jersey, and Leoni is wearing standard ETR nerd attire.
2:14On today's show, we are going to pit the man, Silva, against the machine, Leoni.
2:20To be clear here, Silva is representing his personal top 150 fantasy football rankings for this season, which are from his human mind.
2:27Leoni is representing our ETR rankings, which are more model-based with a lot of human-based, but still mathematical interventions.
2:34They will debate their biggest ranking discrepancies this year, and I, your humble referee, your humble judge, will declare a winner based on their argument.
2:42Not which ranking I agree with. I'm going to try to do this based on who had the better argument.
2:49Once this NFL season is over, we will revisit these debates and name an official winner of Man vs.
2:55Machine 2026. Before we get started here, I just wanted to make it clear, we are adding a weekly Man vs.
3:02Machine show during the season, this season. That show will be for NFL in-season product subscribers only.
3:08The idea of this show is each week, you know, there's going to be five or six big fantasy football storylines.
3:15Just going to allow Silva and Leoni to debate them.
3:18So be sure to pick up our NFL bundle now while it's still on early bird price.
3:24That combines DraftKid Pro and in-season. You can purchase that at EstablishTheRun.com.
3:28Head to the subscribe tab there. That is the bundle, early bird bundle price.
3:33At EstablishTheRun.com. All right. Without further ado, let's let the dogs off their leashes and get into it.
3:39We are going to cover 17 players, 17 ranking discrepancies here today.
3:43First player, and I'm going to give Silva the floor here first.
3:47First player, Justin Jefferson. Silva is at 16 overall on Justin Jefferson.
3:51Justin Jefferson. ETR ranks come in at 8 overall on Justin Jefferson.
3:55Silva the floor here for being low. Lower than ETR and lower than market, frankly, on Justin Jefferson.
4:01So I think it's at least just a little bit worrisome that Kyler Murray couldn't shake J.J.
4:07McCarthy right away to begin Vikings camp. And I also think it's true that Kyler Murray hasn't been better than league average
4:14in terms of passing production since 2021. Kyler Murray has been in the NFL for seven years.
4:20He has never thrown more than 26 touchdown passes in an individual season.
4:24I mean, you go back to Arizona, like people thought that Trey McBride was incapable or like allergic to the end zone because of Kyler Murray.
4:33I think it's very much within the realm of possibility that we see J.J.
4:38McCarthy make starts in the second half of this season.
4:41Justin Jefferson did not miss a single game last year.
4:44He finishes the wide receiver 30. Okay. So there's just so many players I would rather take in the first round than Justin Jefferson this year.
4:53And within the top 15, that's why I have Justin Jefferson as my number 16 overall player, whereas Levitan has him at number eight.
5:01Hmm. Strong argument out of the gates from Silva.
5:04Levitan, your retort. Yeah, I think this is one of the better picks in the back end of the first round.
5:11It's not often we get a discount on elite talent like this.
5:15This is arguably the most talented wide receiver in the entire NFL.
5:19If you look at his 17-game average for his entire career, 105 catches, 1,534 yards, eight touchdowns a season.
5:26That's his 17-game pace. Absolutely remarkable. Last season, J.J.
5:29McCarthy tanked the whole thing in a way that I didn't think was possible.
5:34I was wrong on that. But even going from that to Kyler Murray, even if he's league average passing-wise, we are ecstatic with what that looks like.
5:43J.J. McCarthy, again, he tanked the whole thing. Not only was he super inefficient throwing the ball, they had to run more
5:50than they wanted to to cover up for him.
5:53And he also didn't convert a lot of his dropbacks into pass attempts.
5:57He took a ton of sacks. He was scrambling a lot.
6:01It's not like Kyler is amazing at those things, but he's much better than J.J.
6:06McCarthy. So I think we really want to buy this talent here.
6:10The team pass volume should rebound in a pretty big way.
6:14And ultimately, we could very well see Justin Jefferson go in the top three to five picks in the first round next season.
6:22Leone, you didn't address one of Silva's points that I think is an important one, which was if it does not go
6:29well, if it goes mediocre, we might see J.J.
6:32McCarthy down the stretch. Do you want to address that point from Mr.
6:36Silva? Yeah, I think Kyler's going to play well enough to hold this job over the course of this season.
6:43I think J.J. McCarthy was, again, just that awful that unless he's shown massive improvement that the coaches are seeing that we're
6:51not seeing, he's not going to make a start.
6:54And if he does make a start, hopefully that indicates that that improvement has been there and the coaches are seeing it.
7:01Okay. I'm going to give this one to Silva.
7:04I think that I don't buy Leone's argument that this is a discount at eight overall.
7:09There are so many good players to take in round one.
7:13You have Amon Ross, St. Brown there, who is very safe.
7:17You have Jonathan Taylor, who I would consider to be very safe.
7:21CeeDee Lamb, James Cook, Saquon Barkley. And so if you don't want to, I wouldn't consider it a discount, I guess is my best point.
7:29And yeah, I think there's also some risk there.
7:32A tail risk that if they do not play well enough, we're going to see J.J.
7:38down the stretch. So I will go with Silva for the first argument there.
7:42Player two, Leone will go first here, is Kyle Pitts.
7:46In Silva's top 150, he's at 74 overall on Kyle Pitts, the tight end five.
7:51ETR ranks 98 overall on Kyle Pitts, the tight end eight.
7:54Leone, go ahead on Kyle Pitts. Yeah, it's a tough one for me.
7:59Everyone knows that I'm a longtime Kyle Pitts stan, but the range where Silva has him ranked, if you look at tight
8:06ends the last five years with ADPs in that range, they are much more likely to finish outside the top 12 tight
8:14ends than they are to finish as a top six tight end.
8:18And that's just because we're generally rotating in guys who had really good seasons the year before, but aren't necessarily elite talents.
8:25It's a volatile position. It's difficult to predict. I'd much rather have guys like George Kittle, Dalton Kincaid, Dallas Goddard that go pick 100 or later.
8:34Much less opportunity cost there with similar type of upside.
8:37And speaking to that upside, we saw Pitts go absolutely bananas a few games down the stretch.
8:43But if you look at the on off splits with Drake London, he had a 32.8% target per out run with London off the field.
8:51Only 18.4% with London on the field. It's good that he can be an alpha when London's out, but it's definitely concerning for his base projection.
9:00Silva, your reply. Yeah, so I'm well aware that Kyle Pitts from 2022 through 2024 was a perennial disappointment, borderline bust.
9:07Those actually were the years that Leone was on him because Leone was not on him last year.
9:13I was way ahead of him on Kyle Pitts last year and I was right.
9:18I'm going to be right again this year because I'm again way ahead of Leone on Kyle Pitts, who is an elite talent.
9:26He won the Mackey Award in 2020. He was the fourth overall pick in the 2021 draft.
9:32He went for over a thousand yards as a rookie.
9:35What held him back in those years when Leone was betting on him was that he was recovering from a PCL injury,
9:42which I think has been very much highlighted, especially in this training camp with guys and holding back players for multiple years
9:50in their careers, like Dalton Kincaid, Brock Bowers. Kyle Pitts is the poster boy for the PCL injury.
9:56I also think that from 2022 through 2024, he had Arthur Smith as his coach for two of those years.
10:03Is there a more anti-Arthur Smith player in the NFL than Kyle Pitts?
10:07I think not. Last year, finally, Kyle Pitts is healthy from the PCL injury.
10:12He finished second among tight ends behind only Trey McBride in targets and catches.
10:16The Falcons gave him the franchise tack, and then they gave him a big extension, $36 million guaranteed.
10:22That's the most in the league for a tight end.
10:26Kevin Stefanski, the Falcons' new head coach, is a historically tight end friendly offensive schemer.
10:31Tommy Reese has been called in some circles a tight end whisperer.
10:35And the Falcons' pass catcher cabinet is barren behind Drake London and Bijon Robinson.
10:40So all kinds of opportunity. I think that we're getting Kyle Pitts right now in his prime, going on age 26.
10:47He's not even 26 years old yet. So I'm confident in this one.
10:51I love drafting Kyle Pitts this year. Gosh. You know, I agree more with the ETR rank here on Kyle Pitts, and
10:58I think Leonie's strategy point about the tight end position is certainly very well taken.
11:03But I thought Silva made the better argument. So I'm like, I gotta give it to Silva.
11:09I gotta stick with the format here, even though I do think that the ETR rank is cleaner and better on Kyle Pitts.
11:17That's the best argument I'm gonna get all day.
11:20So this is looking bleak for me. Let's go to player three.
11:24It is Bucky Irving. Silva is gonna have the floor first.
11:28Mr. Silva has Bucky Irving, 82 overall. They're running back 31.
11:31So way behind market there on Bucky. ETR ranks 55 overall on Bucky.
11:36The running back 24. Silva, the floor is yours.
11:39So first things first, with Bucky Irving, you were betting on a bounce back.
11:43And historically, betting on bounce backs are bad bets in fantasy football.
11:47Plus, Bucky Irving has to deal with losing receiving work to Kenneth Gainwell, who the Bucks gave quite a bit of money in free agency.
11:56And also potentially using the Bucks, potentially using Sean Tucker at the goal line.
12:01Last year, Bucky Irving had zero carries inside the five yard line.
12:05I don't want running backs that aren't catching passes and aren't scoring touchdowns.
12:09Bucky Irving is a classic guy that I'm avoiding across the board this year.
12:14Okay. Yes. The high value touch argument from Silva here on Bucky.
12:18Leonie, what is your reply to that? Yeah. I mean, the high value touch argument is a strong one.
12:24There's trap concerns, but I just think Silva's double counting that.
12:28Bucky dealt with some health stuff last year. I think that affected the goal line role.
12:33I know Sean Tucker is gonna be involved in the goal line, not pretending otherwise.
12:38But Bucky did get inside the five carries two years ago.
12:42He was successful on those carries. He had the shoulder injury.
12:46They were trying to shy him away from contact last year.
12:49I think that had a lot to do with it.
12:53And his efficiency cratered with the injuries. You know, he went from over five yards a carry to sub four yards per carry.
13:00But we're gonna see a huge bounce back, not only in his health, but in offensive line play.
13:06Thorne has the Bucks third in his offensive line rankings right now.
13:11They were obliterated with injuries last season. So I think that's a really big part of it.
13:16And you're betting on some of that explosiveness. And while Kenny Gainwell is a threat to steal some targets, certainly, it's important
13:24to point out that even with Bucky not playing 100% last year, each of the last two seasons, he's been one of
13:31the best running backs in the entire NFL in yards per route run back to back years.
13:37So I don't think that fast of his game is just going away.
13:41He's too talented. So I'll take some of the trap concerns, just betting on the explosiveness and the bounce back from the
13:49player that is going to get the most touches in this backfield.
13:53Yeah, I came out of the gates this drafting season on Silva's line.
13:57Like, he's not going to get the catches. He's not going to get the goal line.
14:02He's not going to play pass downs. He's not going to get the goal line.
14:07We need to be out on him. But the market has reacted so violently that I've actually been more in on him
14:15as his ADP has dipped towards the 60s here.
14:18I think Leone made the better argument. The key point to Leone's argument here for me on Bucky is just because Kenny
14:25Gainwell plays the clear passing down does not mean Bucky Irving will not catch passes.
14:30We see RJ Harvey, Kenneth Walker. Plenty of guys do not play the pure pass downs but can still catch 35, 40,
14:3845, even 50 balls in a season. So I will give that one to Leone there on Bucky Irving.
14:44Let's go to our fourth player here. Kenneth Walker is up.
14:48Silva is at 9 overall on Kenneth Walker. ETR has come in at 14 overall on Kenneth Walker.
14:54This is not really a big gap at all.
14:57I just want to be clear. But people get so hyper-focused on the first round and the second round that I wanted to include this one here.
15:06We have a bit of a discrepancy at the top.
15:09So this is a Leone first here. Again, ETR at 14 overall on Kenneth Walker.
15:14Yeah, first off, I'm a little salty that Kenneth Walker is ranked 9th in Silva's rankings, won the Super Bowl MVP.
15:21And yet, despite all that, I lost this bullish argument on Kenneth Walker last year in Man vs.
15:27Machine and got dusted playing him in DFS when Zach Charbonnet was out.
15:32So a twisted sense of fate here. But, you know, a lot has obviously changed with his success over the playoffs.
15:39And an ideal landing spot in Kansas City. Hard for him to find a better landing spot, which is why we both
15:46have him up so high in the ranks. But ultimately, when you're looking at running backs that succeed in the first round,
15:54you're looking at truly elite rushing running backs. And you're also looking at workhorse running backs.
15:59And I don't know if Walker's in the truly elite category.
16:03I like him last year at his price because he has that boom-bust explosiveness that gives you a nice ceiling.
16:09But it is boom and bust. He has one of the poor success rates in the entire NFL, especially by the goal line.
16:17He's not very successful. There's some risk there. We've seen Kansas City bring in and use goal line specific backs in the past.
16:25He's never had a double-digit target share. So the combination of all that has me thinking that there's a little bit more
16:32risk than upside where Evan has him ranked. I think Walker is basically a riskier version of the James Cook, Derrick Henry bet.
16:40So that's why we have Walker behind those two backs.
16:43I think Evan's a little too aggressive ranking Walker ahead.
16:47All right. Evan, nine overall on Kenneth Walker. Go ahead.
16:50Yeah, so Kenneth Walker pretty consistently lasts until the early to middle portion of the second round in fantasy drafts.
16:57That's actually where Leone has him at number 14 overall, early second round.
17:01I think he belongs locked into the first round.
17:04I think it makes all the sense in the world for the Chiefs to build their offense around Kenneth Walker with Patrick
17:12Mahomes coming off December surgery to repair his ACL and his LCL.
17:16Patrick Mahomes has admitted publicly that he's not going to run this year.
17:20So that opens up more dump off opportunities for Kenneth Walker.
17:24The Chiefs gave Kenneth Walker almost $15 million a year and $29 million guaranteed.
17:28Their top pass catchers right now are Travis Kelsey, who turns 37 a month into the season, and Rasheed Rice, who had
17:36knee surgery in May and had to rehab it in literal jail.
17:40And has not looked very good so far in training camp.
17:44Our O-line guru, Brandon Thorne, rated the Chiefs offensive line eighth best in the league.
17:49And I think that you can strongly argue that with the exception of Patrick Mahomes, Kenneth Walker is the Chiefs best skill position player.
17:57His backups right now are Amari DiMarcado, who was in Kansas City on basically a veteran minimum contract, and rookie Emmett Johnson,
18:04who lasted until the fifth round of an historically bad running back class.
18:08So just so little in-house competition for work. Kenneth Walker's my RB5, number nine overall player.
18:14I love him as a bet this year to win NFL Offensive Player of the Year 40-1.
18:20Yeah, so Leone's argument is effectively just a skill argument.
18:23He's not good enough, dynamic enough to be worthy of going at nine overall.
18:28That rings a little bit hollow to me. I think the Seahawks coddled him too much, and he knew it.
18:34And that's the reason that he wanted to leave.
18:37Silva did leave out an important part of the argument, though, for Kenneth Walker.
18:42That is one of my bigger arguments for Kenneth Walker.
18:45Every defense plays Mahomes the same way. How deep can we get the safeties?
18:50How deep can we get the defense? We have to defend against the pass.
18:55If they try to do that this year to Mahomes, I mean, Kenneth Walker is going to go absolutely berserk.
19:02The Chiefs have not had a running back like Walker to do that in a long time.
19:07So I'm still going to give this one to Silva.
19:11I'm biased there because Walker is also one of my favorite picks here this year at the back end of the first round.
19:18Yeah, I would like to see it addressed why Kenneth Walker is that much better pick than Saquon, Henry, James Cook.
19:25Guys that we have more confidence that have done it before, that you're leapfrogging Walker, who's never done it before in this capacity.
19:33Yeah, for me, Silva can answer also. For me, Saquon Barkley is 29 and Derrick Henry is 30.
19:39I was going to say, he's a lot younger than those guys.
19:43Yeah, I mean, and like there was a decline in Saquon's yards per carry last year, which I think you can attribute
19:51to Petulo and some bad offensive line play and injuries and stuff.
19:55But there's also some chance he's just 29 years old running back, you know, so.
20:00James Cook's not old. That's true. Yeah. Buffalo Homer checking in.
20:03All right. We might be able to hear some appeals this season.
20:07So save your motions for appeals for later. All right.
20:11Let's go to next up is T Higgins. Silva's going to be first here on T Higgins.
20:17Silva is at 25 overall. His wide receiver 11 in the top 150.
20:21ETR ranks 40th overall on T Higgins. The wide receiver 19.
20:25So an eight wide receiver gap here. In between the two ranking sets on T Higgins.
20:30Silva is first this time. Go ahead on T.
20:33So in season long fantasy drafts, I really like to prioritize players that I consider to be high floor and high ceiling.
20:40And that is T Higgins in a nutshell. He's been a top 20 fantasy receiver in four of the last five years.
20:48He's a touchdown scorer in a high scoring offense.
20:51He's right in his prime at age 27. The Bengals have basically refused to add any kind of target competition at third
20:58receiver or tight end behind Jamar Chase and T Higgins.
21:02So this is like a very narrow target tree.
21:05And there have been time periods over the past couple years where T Higgins has out targeted Jamar Chase straight up when both have been healthy.
21:13And obviously if Jamar Chase were to miss any time, just the upside is massive for T Higgins.
21:19So that's your classic definition of a high floor, high ceiling player.
21:23I also really like how optimistic Thorne is about the Bengals offensive line.
21:28They're right in the middle of the pack and they have depth this year.
21:33I mean, that's a huge step up from where the Bengals have been from an offensive line standpoint in recent years.
21:40I think that Joe Burrow is on a mission this year.
21:43I know that Adam Levitan has the Bengals as his Super Bowl pick.
21:48And that is not happening without a huge season from T Higgins.
21:52And I'm on board with all that. All right.
21:5525 overall on T. Leoni, your reply. Yeah, I think it's a little disingenuous to call T Higgins a high floor pick at 25 overall.
22:03This is a guy that has routinely missed several games here and there.
22:08He's been active for games that he has disappeared from and barely played.
22:12So there's some risk on that standpoint. Also, was really touchdown dependent last year.
22:17Obviously, Burrow missed some time and that plays into it.
22:20But he had basically an outlier year in touchdowns per target.
22:24It was at 11.2% for his career, even including that season at 7.4%.
22:28So we probably see a good amount of regression there.
22:31Meanwhile, the targets per out run really came down.
22:34We're kind of far removed from those games where he was out targeting Chase when they played together.
22:40Chase has led the entire NFL in total targets the past two seasons.
22:45Higgins last year, 19.8% target per out run. That's like Brian Thomas Jr.
22:49and Marvin Harrison Jr. Rashid Shahid, Jordan Addison range.
22:52If you look at just the games he played with Burrow, it is better at 22%.
22:58But that's like Romeo Dobbs, Michael Pittman, Cortland Sutton last year.
23:01That type of range. Now, they're not in offenses that are as explosive as Cincinnati.
23:06You do have to give T the contingent upside if something were to happen to Chase.
23:12But you're really paying a hefty premium for it where Evan has him ranked.
23:16Yeah. And I think Leonie's last point is the best point.
23:20This is very expensive to find out on T.
23:23Higgins when there are a lot of wide receivers that go in this range that Silva, I think, likes but has behind T.
23:31Higgins. Guys like Devonta Smith, Ladd McConkie, A.J. Brown, Egbuka, Mike Evans, Zay Flowers.
23:36I mean, there are a lot of wide receivers in this range.
23:40I'm not sure that T. Higgins clears those guys enough.
23:43And the opportunity cost, as Leonie said, is really high here on T.
23:47Higgins. And so I will go ahead and give this one to Mr.
23:52Leonie. Next up, Brock Bowers. Silva's at 13 overall on Brock Bowers.
23:56ETR ranks down at 21 overall. Both have as the clear tight end one.
24:00But again, at the top of the draft here, I know people are always hyper-focused on this.
24:06Leonie, you're first on Brock Bowers at 21 overall here versus Silva's 13.
24:11Yeah, I'll start with the health stuff. I know reports out of camp are strong right now.
24:16But Bowers dealt with this PCL injury last year.
24:19But a wise man told me nearly 10 minutes ago that PCL injuries hold guys back for multiple years.
24:26And this is year two for Brock Bowers. And he's also, I mean, he's averaged about 15 fantasy points per game in half PPR.
24:34If you're taking him at the 1-2 turn, you need him to absolutely smash clear-cut tight end one by a margin.
24:41I mean, in 2020, Travis Kelsey wasn't going this early, coming off nearly 20 points per game in back-to-back overall tight end one finishes.
24:49So we're just paying an extremely high price tag for something that we hope happens.
24:54I think he's an extremely talented player. I think he's really good, but not at the 1-2 turn.
25:00You also throw in some concerns with an aging Kirk Cousins at quarterback.
25:04They likely go to a rookie quarterback in Mendoza.
25:07He went one overall. I'd be really surprised if he didn't take over at some point.
25:13And if you look at the longer-term trend on rookie quarterbacks, it's not great for pass catchers.
25:19I know a couple years ago, J.J. Zachariasen did some research.
25:22And this was looking at wide receivers, but it had them three times more likely to put up a 15-plus PPR point
25:30per game season if they had a veteran quarterback as opposed to a rookie quarterback.
25:35Some of that applies to Bowers, where we're basically expecting elite wide receiver production out of him if we're taking him at the 1-2 turn.
25:43All right. Silva, your reply on Mr. Bowers. So my bet on Brock Bowers is that he's a truly generational talent, and
25:50I could go through like 10 different bullet points illustrating why that is.
25:55He's the only tight end in college football history to win the Mackey Award twice, and he won the Mackey Award both times as an underclassman.
26:04As a rookie in 2024, Brock Bowers was third in the NFL in catches with 112.
26:09That's the most in the league history for any rookie, regardless of position.
26:13He did suffer that PCL injury last week one.
26:16So I guess you could sort of hold that against him a little bit, although there have been no indications that that's
26:24going to carry over into this year. He missed five games.
26:27He came back. He still finished, despite the PCL injury.
26:31Brock Bowers finished as a top four tight end last year in fantasy points per game.
26:36He's healthy now. The Raiders offense is run by Clint Kubiak, who last year oversaw an offense in Seattle that featured Jackson
26:44Smith and Jigba as just a massive target share player, and I think that that's how Brock Bowers is going to be this year.
26:52You know, there were not big-time alternative pass catchers in Seattle, and there are not big-time alternative pass catchers this year in Las Vegas.
27:00And so I think that the offenses are sort of similar, and actually that Clint Kubiak is going to build this passing
27:07game around Brock Bowers just like he did with JSN.
27:10And I think that Brock Bowers can do very similar to what JSN did last year in terms of competing for offensive player of the year.
27:19Man, this is a tough one. Allow me to ask a question to Leonie from the judges' bench.
27:25Neither of you really addressed the idea of positional scarcity and how much Brock Bowers could beat the rest of the tight ends by.
27:33Do you have any thoughts on that for season long?
27:37I know we've talked about it in DFS and in best ball, but for season-long setups, Leonie, do you have any thoughts
27:44on just the tight end, having a huge hit at tight end, how much more that helps you than having a huge
27:51hit at running back or wide receiver? Yeah, I mean, it depends on your league settings, but quite often you're starting three or four wide receivers.
28:00So the scarcity funnels down at the wide receiver position.
28:04If you can take Justin Jefferson at the 1-2 turn, you're starting to compare, and versus Brock Bowers, you might be getting
28:11smoked at tight end, but your wide receiver one is crushing their wide receiver three.
28:16So I do think sometimes it's overvalued a little bit in leagues where the total league size is shorter.
28:22I do like the elite onesies a bit more, where you're going to get studs at running back wide receiver throughout, no matter what.
28:31So like lock in the best player in elite onesie.
28:34But for a standard 12-team league, I do think you need Bowers to really run away with the position.
28:40And we're talking like something that he hasn't done or shown yet.
28:44And that's a lot of projection. Like I said, and that's part of the reason why I made the comparison too.
28:51Evan has Bowers ranked where Pete Travis Kelsey was going when we had a much bigger historical data set on Travis Kelsey being that elite tight end one.
29:01Brock Bowers is better than Travis Kelsey ever was.
29:04It's a very high risk proposition before we actually see it.
29:07Evan came in, if you guys didn't catch that, with the Brock Bowers is better than Kelsey ever was take.
29:14He also had Patrick Mahomes and Brock Bowers doesn't.
29:17But yeah, this is really good. I thought you both made really, really strong arguments.
29:22Oh God. I'll say this. I agree with the rank more on...
29:26I thought you made really even arguments. I agreed to rank more on ETR.
29:31So I will give that one to Leon. All right.
29:34Next up, Kyron Williams. Silva's going to go first here.
29:38Silva is down on Kyron Williams, 45 overall. ETR is up at 25 overall on Kyron Williams.
29:43Silva, go ahead on the Kyron fade. So I think that the arrow is pointing up on Blake Corum.
29:50And I think that we can see very close to a 50-50 split this year between Kyron Williams and Blake Corum.
29:57Blake Corum averaged over five yards per carry last season.
30:00He averaged over 10 touches per game in the Rams' three playoff games.
30:05He's just a more explosive option than Kyron Williams is.
30:08You know, you listen to modern offensive coaches talk.
30:11They are obsessed with explosives. Blake Corum generated an explosive play that's a 10-yard or more carry or a 20-plus yard reception
30:18on 15% of his touches last season. Kyron Williams' explosive play rate was 9%.
30:23The Rams need explosiveness on offense. Devontae Adams is not a vertical threat anymore.
30:28The Rams really don't have a third receiver. We may say there's been some talk of us seeing Terrence Ferguson more a little bit this year.
30:37That's because he is explosive. Blake Corum is explosive.
30:40Kyron Williams is not explosive. And the Rams need explosiveness.
30:43And I think that that's where we're going to see more of Blake Corum this year.
30:48And he's going to really hurt Kyron Williams. Some spreadsheet socialist stats there from Silva, perhaps bridging the gap between the two sides.
30:56Leone, a retort on Kyron. Yeah. On the surface, I agree it feels a little nervous to have Kyron this much higher than Silva.
31:04And I 100% agree on the explosiveness point. Blake Corum is the more explosive back.
31:09But when we look at the whole picture, it's the coaching staff that has shown time and time again how much they trust Kyron Williams.
31:18He's the better success rate rusher. He's better goal line rusher.
31:21He's better at absorbing contact. His yards after contact is higher than Blake Corum.
31:26And if you look at the yards per route run, 1.01 for Kyron Williams.
31:31Not that special, but Blake Corum is at 0.57.
31:34Kyron Williams is the guy that they want back there.
31:37So that's why you're not going to see a true 50-50 timeshare.
31:41They're trusting Kyron Williams, who, let me point out, 4.8 yards per carry, 4.6 for his career.
31:47So no, he's not going to give you as many breakaway runs as Blake Corum.
31:52But he's a highly efficient, highly dependable back on a team here that is projected to be the highest scoring in the
31:59league, which is really good for him to continue to churn out double-digit touchdown seasons like he has the last three seasons.
32:07One of the most important parts of playing half PPR, fantasy football.
32:11And a final point, we quite often look at contingent value as like, oh, this backup could really smash if the starter gets hurt.
32:19But it works both ways. If Blake Corum gets hurt, we're getting a full workload 1-2 turn Kyron Williams.
32:25And that's a really, you know, talk about Tee Higgins being high floor, high ceiling.
32:30I actually think that's more what you're getting with Kyron Williams at the same spot in the draft.
32:36Good argument. I'm going to give this one to Silva for two reasons.
32:41First, he cited spreadsheets. I was impressed with the explosive run rate stats.
32:45That was an important part of the argument. And second, Leone kind of hand-waved the Blake Corum user stuff.
32:51Well, it's not going to be 50-50 this year.
32:54I literally told you why. He's better in the pass game and he's better in a goal line split.
33:01And they've shown time and time again in the playoffs that they trust him more.
33:06It's called willful ignorance is what it is. I mean, maybe I could be wrong on it, but I definitely didn't hand-wave it.
33:14But I directly addressed it. That's fair. At some point, it's going to be a decline in Kyron's role.
33:20I don't know if it's going to be this year, next year, 2030, whatever.
33:25At some point, there's going to be a decline in role.
33:28And I think Silva made some arguments that this year could be the year where we do see a slight decline in role.
33:36The Rams have shown that they want more explosiveness in the backfield and that they're willing to let other backs cut.
33:43I mean, they did it last year with Blake Corum, especially in the playoffs.
33:48I mean, Blake Corum's like the only back they've done this with.
33:52I don't know what these other backs are that you're referencing.
33:56They want to use multiple backs. That's largely untrue.
33:59And also, Kyron Williams is 26. This isn't like a guy who's fallen off the age cliff.
34:04He's in the prime of his career. You can submit your appeals, Leonie.
34:09You can submit your appeals. You have some good arguments on appeals.
34:13Hold those thoughts. We might have an actual federal judge hear your appeals.
34:17So everybody calm down. Okay. Let's go to next on the list.
34:21Another guy up board here. AJ Brown. Silva is down at 30 overall.
34:26The wide receiver 14. ETR ranks on AJ Brown 20th overall.
34:29The wide receiver 8. It is Leonie's turn to go first here on AJ Brown.
34:34Yeah, he's one of the most efficient wide receivers in all of the NFL.
34:39And on top of that efficiency, he commands elite volume.
34:4228% and 27% targets per outrun the last couple of seasons.
34:46Yes, sometimes that stuff can be higher in offenses that throw a little bit less volume and can be more condensed.
34:53But he has competed with some legitimate target share earners in Devontae Smith and Dallas Goddard.
34:59Now he goes to New England where there's no one to get in his way in terms of elite volume.
35:05He's paired with an ascending quarterback who almost won the MVP last season.
35:10Certainly an upgrade throwing the football from Jalen Hurts.
35:13Really, really huge ceiling here for AJ Brown. And the floor is incredible too when you just consider the volume that he has to command.
35:21So this could be a turbo smash. But like worst case, you're probably breaking even here.
35:26Okay. Silva, go ahead on AJ Brown. I think it's funny that Leone said that there's no one to compete with in
35:34New England after he spent the last several years pushing the Romeo Dobbs agenda all over everybody.
35:40And the Patriots went out and signed him to a four-year, $68 million deal.
35:44But hey, let's just ignore that. So AJ Brown, I have him as a top 30 overall fantasy player.
35:51And I feel like that's pretty high considering that he's 29 years old.
35:55He's a wide receiver changing teams. He's coming off career lows, career lows in yards per target, yards per reception and success rate.
36:03The Rams looked into trading for AJ Brown this offseason, but they backed out reportedly due to concerns that Brown has a degenerative knee.
36:11Okay. He missed time with a hamstring injury in each of the last two seasons.
36:16If you read Matt Harmon's reception perception right up on AJ Brown, Matt Harmon paints the picture of a pretty clearly declining
36:23player in the descent phase of his career. So look, I have AJ Brown as a top 30 overall player, wide receiver 14.
36:31I think that's aggressive considering how many red flags he has.
36:35This decline in yards per target essentially was T.
36:38Higgins' career average in yards per target who you have ranked in front of him.
36:43But pretty sure we're talking about AJ Brown here.
36:46Also, the fact that you made Romeo Dobbs your main target competition point, I feel like you won it for me.
36:53So thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. Don't make me mute the mics here, guys.
36:58Don't make me mute the mics. Gosh. Gosh. Too really good.
37:02You guys are getting like too good at this and like too prepared for these because both of you have very, very good arguments here.
37:10I think it's a really close argument again. And so I'm going to use the same tiebreaker I used with the Bowers one.
37:18And I agree more with the ETR rank here at 20 overall for AJ Brown.
37:23I'll go with Leone. But man, Silva made a very good argument there against AJ Brown where he's going.
37:29Let's go to Mike Evans. Silva is at 34 overall.
37:33Wide receiver 18 for him. ETR ranks 52 overall.
37:36Wide receiver 26 on Mike Evans. Silva, you are up first here on Mr.
37:40Mike Evans. So Mike Evans has a chance to be an absolute volume monster in San Francisco.
37:46This year, Ricky Pearsall already out for the year.
37:49George Kittle tours Achilles in January. He turns 33 in October.
37:53Christian McCaffrey is 30, coming off career highs in carries and touches.
37:57The 49ers are so desperate that right at the beginning of training camp, they had to bring back Debo Samuel purely out of desperation.
38:05I understand Mike Evans is 33. He has a seeming, you know, increasing propensity to soft tissue injuries.
38:11But he is Kyle Shanahan's new ex-receiver with high-quality quarterback play from Brock Purdy in an otherwise extremely fragile 49er skill position group.
38:19We can get a first ballot Hall of Famer, and he's going to be wearing the gold jacket five years after he retires.
38:26I can assure you of that. Mike Evans will.
38:29In a really good fantasy environment at like a fifth to sixth round cost, I think that he should be going at
38:37the third or fourth round turn in every draft.
38:40I'm really excited about Mike Evans' floor and ceiling this year.
38:43All right. Mike Evans, Leonie, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, the Mike Evans, A.J.
38:48Brown positions are completely incongruous to me. Evans got these guys ranked essentially the same, 30th and 34th.
38:54He's worried about A.J. Brown's fall off at age, you know, entering his age 29 season.
39:00Mike Evans is entering his age 33 season, missed more games last year than he did his entire career with a hamstring injury.
39:07And while he played was atrocious from an efficiency standpoint.
39:11Talk about an efficiency drop off 5.9 yards per target.
39:14The yards per target Silva was worried about for A.J.
39:17Brown was 8.3. And if we look at historically, age 33 wide receivers since 2010 who have averaged even double digit PPR
39:25points per game, who have played at least half the season, there's 10 of them.
39:3010 of them all time. So, yes, the environment's amazing, which is the only reason why we have him as like an
39:37OK value in our rankings in round five. But round three is really asking for trouble.
39:43Yeah, I thought Leonie brought it there. I'm going to give that one to Leonie.
39:48One thing that Leonie didn't bring up in the argument against Mike Evans, too, to me, is this whole systemic team is so old and so fragile.
39:57Like it could just go bad systemically for the 49ers.
40:00I don't normally say that about Kyle Shanahan teams.
40:03But gosh, I mean, they're really fragile to a lot of these guys getting hurt and not that deep.
40:10So, yeah. All right. Keep it moving here to Luther Burden, one of the most talked about players of this offseason.
40:17Silva is at 35 overall, the wide receiver 19.
40:20Leonie is at 48 overall, the wide receiver 24.
40:23I want to note here that neither of us have really moved much on Luther Burden based off of this latest groin injury that he has.
40:31Silva and I talked about that yesterday. Hopefully you guys caught the news in ranking change show.
40:37I was personally a little more worried about it than Silva was.
40:41But for the sake of this argument, we're going to assume that Luther Burden will be playing week one for the Chicago Bears.
40:49So, Leonie, go ahead on Luther Burden. Yeah, not concerned about the groin injury.
40:54And I want to be in on Luther Burden.
40:57It's very efficient from a pertarget standpoint as a rookie.
41:00Very strong analytical profile as a prospect. This is an offense where we're all excited about Ben Johnson, Caleb Williams in year two.
41:08But there were some efficiency concerns from Caleb year one.
41:11And in terms of Burden, I think people are eyeing up that efficiency and seeing DJ Moore gone and just thinking that,
41:18oh, it's Luther Burden to the moon. But there are some reasons to be at least somewhat skeptical here.
41:25When he shared the field with Roma Dunze, Roma's targets per route run 21.1%, Luther Burden 16.3%.
41:31I was kind of shocked to see that. That's if you guaranteed both of them were on the field.
41:37So there's no bias in terms of Roma running more routes or anything.
41:41When Roma was off the field, he had a 35% target per route run.
41:46And also, if you further filter that to the 77 routes where it was Rome, Loveland, and Burden on the field, just
41:53an 11.7% target per route run for Burden. So those are the stats that just give me a little bit of pause
42:01that maybe we're getting out over our skis a little bit on a young, exciting player that we want to be really
42:08good but only earned 60 targets last season. And we've still got two other really strong young players there in Roma Dunze and Colston Loveland.
42:17And I know Rome's been painted with kind of this brushstroke that he's really disappointed in and he has been to an extent.
42:24But I think that makes it easy for people to make a narrative-based argument to push away from him and in favor
42:32of Burden that's maybe divorced a little bit from the probabilities of how this season plays out.
42:38Yeah. If you listen to the Harmon show, the tape bros certainly like Roma Dunze still as well, certainly more than I do personally.
42:46But anyway, Silva, go ahead on being higher than ETR ranks on Luther Burden.
42:50Yeah, I feel bad for you, Leonie, because you're going to be late to the dance on an absolute monster breakout for Luther Burden.
42:58Hey, where are you going to mark it? Luther Burden was third in the NFL, not just among rookies, third in the
43:06NFL in yards per route run as a rookie.
43:09A really good yards per route run number for a rookie is like 1.8.
43:13Two is like historically great. He was at 2.7.
43:17Luther Burden is freaking awesome. Year two of the Ben Johnson system.
43:21Look at the Bears defense. So last year they were able to survive on having the best turnover differential in the NFL.
43:28That is a statistic that is obviously bound for regression.
43:31Brandon Thorne has the Bears pass rush as a bottom two unit in the league, and they just lost Kobe Bryant, their
43:39highest priced free Asian acquisition, essentially like for the season.
43:42I mean, they're hoping that they can get him back for the playoffs.
43:46And then they drafted Dylan Thienemann in the first round, but they're going to have a rookie safety and some geek off
43:54the street at the other safety behind a bottom two pass rush.
43:58So the Bears are going to score a ton of points this year, and Luther Burden is going to be the Bears' number one receiver.
44:06He's going to go absolutely ballistic. Yeah. So this is one of those arguments where it's, to me, it's like the IQ
44:14meme thing where it's like there's so many arguments you can make about being against Luther Burden or anti or the hype's gone too far.
44:22Dude is just going to print. You know what I mean?
44:26Like you just have to like sit there and watch.
44:29He's going to print. And Silva didn't even bring up what I thought was, normally I ignore all this like coach speak nonsense.
44:37They are going out of their way to be like Ben Johnson, like buy Luther Burden stock.
44:43Luther Burden is going to be like Amon Ra and freaking Jerry Rice.
44:47Like he cannot stop raving over this guy. So I think this is a harder argument to make from a data perspective,
44:54even though we are higher than market on Luther Burden in the ETR ranks.
44:59Like it's just a printing press. And so I'm going to go with that one.
45:04Silva there for the Luther Burden. Let's go to Trey McBride.
45:08Silva is at 39 overall on Trey McBride, the tight end three.
45:12ETR ranks 28 overall on Trey McBride, the tight end two.
45:16So again, Silva does have Colston Loveland ahead of Trey McBride here.
45:20Silva, you are first on the McBride fade. So the Cardinals last year attempted 649 passes.
45:25That was the most in the league. The Cardinals also allowed the fifth most sacks in the NFL.
45:31So that's over 700 dropbacks that the Cardinals had last year from their quarterbacks.
45:36Trey McBride wound up running 699 pass routes. That was almost two games more than the next closest tight end.
45:42The Cardinals go out. They use the number three overall pick on Jeremiah Love.
45:47They signed Tyler Algier for over $6 million a year.
45:51They brought back James Conner on a restructured deal.
45:54There's no way that this team wants to have their quarterbacks drop back to pass 700 times again.
46:00They are bringing back 33-year-old journeyman Jacoby Brissett at quarterback.
46:03They drafted Carson Beck in the third round. I mean, they do not want to have that many dropbacks again.
46:10I don't even think they'll come within 100 of how many they had last year.
46:15And I think they're really going to struggle to score points.
46:18They're just not a talented team. That means touchdown regression for McBride.
46:22Trey McBride really took a big step last year, obviously because of the inflated number of just pure routes that he ran.
46:30But also because he suddenly started scoring touchdowns. He scored 11 touchdowns last year.
46:35I don't think that the Cardinals are going to score many touchdowns.
46:39I don't think they're going to run that many plays.
46:42I don't think they're going to pass nearly as often as they did last season.
46:47That's going to mean a lot of regression for Trey McBride.
46:51By the way, Silva, we didn't get to talk about Carson Beck's debut.
46:55Did you see Carson Beck's debut? And did that give you any more optimism if he gets under center?
47:01I thought he made a lot of easy throws to open receivers in the Hall of Fame game.
47:08Okay. Leody, your reply on Trey McBride here. So I will agree with Silva that I think there is a certain amount of regression coming here.
47:16But this is kind of what's hard when you're doing ranks based off of feel and doing the ranks with projections is
47:24we're building in a ton of that regression. We're building in that Vegas team total for Arizona being quite low.
47:30We have him with about a 30, more than 30 less targets than he had last season.
47:36And he still spits out comfortably. And if you want a comparison point, Silva's dogging, Kyler Murray, the tight end three and
47:44half PPR per game, despite only scoring two touchdowns in 2024, was Trey McBride.
47:48So we've kind of seen the floor and the ceiling for him the last two years.
47:54The only player in all of football who has more targets than Trey McBride the last two seasons is Jamar Chase.
48:01You know, Trey McBride narrowly out-targeting Amon Ross St.
48:04Brown over that span. So we are talking about a truly unique elite target earning tight end in multiple environments.
48:10One where they kind of got crazy with Jacoby Brissett, but even with Kyler Murray in a more standard offense.
48:17And for you to drop him as though as you've dropped him is really kind of flooding this offensive environment.
48:24And you're not applying that same logic to Brock Bowers and the Raiders, who have a team total that's pretty similarly low and also have quarterback concerns.
48:33So I'd much rather have Trey McBride, where we have him ranked, than Brock Bowers, where you have him ranked.
48:40A follow-up, Leonie. You know, talk about the target earning.
48:43Previous iterations of his Cardinals team have not had Marvin Harrison healthy, Michael Wilson broken out, and Jeremiah Love, the three overall pick, commanding touches.
48:51Do you have any concern about Trey McBride's been earning targets against like total dust balls for the last couple years?
48:58Yeah, I think that you can't just earn targets unless you have a certain level of talent, regardless of the people around you.
49:06We've seen other players thrust into positive environments. They don't sustain an elite level of target earning over two consecutive seasons quite like that.
49:14And if you look at any of the target per outrun stuff, like the on-off splits for Trey McBride, even if you
49:22look at the numbers with Michael Wilson on the field, for example, it's still really strong for Trey McBride.
49:28If you lock Michael Wilson on the field, Trey McBride's still leader in target per outrun.
49:33Marvin Harrison, lock him on the field, target per outrun.
49:37So I don't really see where this competition from targets is coming from that's going to meaningfully drop his target share.
49:44This is a guy in the prime of his career.
49:47Yeah. I'm going to give this one to Silva because I know we're regressing the Trey McBride, the dropbacks and the pass
49:55attempt stuff as hard as we possibly can. There are some outcomes where it just regresses so, so, so massively.
50:01So yeah, but I do think that Leonie also made a really good argument about the Bowers versus McBride thing with Silva,
50:09you know, kind of similar-ish spots there. I think Silva's counter would probably just be Bowers is an infinitely better player.
50:16Yeah, I mean, if we want to just say things that we hope are true, like I'm going to continue to lose
50:23every single one like I have been. So I don't even know.
50:27Actually, the score is right now. I think they're going to be just going to be amazing.
50:33There would be a consensus. And Brock Bowers is going to be amazing.
50:37Silva wins. There would be a consensus among people inside the NFL that Brock Bowers is light years better than Trey McBride.
50:45Leonie, you cannot say that you're losing all of these.
50:48The current score, producer Ryan has just put in my earpiece here.
50:52Silva 6, Leonie 5. Yeah, always the victim, Leonie.
50:55So, yes. All right, let's keep it moving here to Cam Scadaboo.
50:59Silva is at 63 overall. His running back 27.
51:02ETR ranks 43 overall. The running back 20. Leonie, go ahead on Mr.
51:07Scadaboo. Yeah, I like the workhorse potential here at this point in the draft.
51:11Just no competition for goal line carries between him and Tyrone Tracy.
51:15Devin Singletary's aging out. If you look at target share as well in the games that Scadaboo played last year and kind of earned that number one role.
51:25He was well into the double digits. You don't kind of get these profiles of like a year or two back with
51:32demonstrated workhorse ability at this price very often. The combination of leading his team in base carry share, having a double digit
51:40target share, and having a wrap on the goal line share is really, really bullish for Cam Scadaboo.
51:46And I know coming into the year, I kind of expected to be down on Scadaboo, but the way the coaching staff
51:53has talked about him and the moves that they made this offseason or lack thereof at the running back position have really
52:00solidified in my mind that they view him as the very clear one running back here.
52:06Silva, go ahead. Yeah, I actually ticked Cam Scadaboo down my rankings a little bit yesterday because Dan Dugan, who was an
52:13awesome, awesome beat writer for the Giants, wrote about Cam Scadaboo.
52:17Not having a decisive edge over Tyrone Tracy for the Giants' number one running back job.
52:22So I don't think that that's true, that the Giants view Cam Scadaboo as their clear number one at all.
52:29And I don't think that should surprise anyone either because Cam Scadaboo was coming off a dislocated ankle, a fractured fibula, a
52:36torn deltoid ligament in week eight last season. He was already a 4-6-5 guy in terms of speed.
52:42And Tyrone Tracy is a more than functional back, and so is Devin Singletary.
52:47And I don't trust Matt Nagy to run a functional offense at all.
52:52And I think the Jackson Dart is still a major wild card who could totally flame out under a new, potentially bad offensive coaching staff.
53:00And that's, you know, so I just, I wouldn't know who, also this coaching staff had no hand in drafting Cam Scadaboo.
53:07So I would just rather not bet on running backs coming off of debilitating compound leg injuries in a potentially bottom 10, maybe even bottom five offense.
53:16Hmm. It's an interesting one because I actually agree more with the ETR rank just because I think the high value touches,
53:24the catches, and the goal line is so valuable.
53:27And Cam Scadaboo, I do think, will get that.
53:30But I did think Silva made the better argument with Matt Nagy coming off of the injury and the stuff that we've seen from Dan Dugan.
53:39And I actually have reached out to some Giants people to try to see if they also agree with what Dugan was saying there.
53:47We'll see if I can get an answer there.
53:50But yeah, Scadaboo is such a really, really, really tough one for sure.
53:54Let's go to J.K. Dobbins. Silva is going to be first here.
53:58Silva is at 62 overall on J.K. Dobbins. He's ETR down at 90 overall on Dobbins.
54:03Silva, go ahead. So one thing that we should all be able to agree on here is that J.K.
54:10Dobbins is really good at football. He's averaged 5.2 yards per carry in his career.
54:15He averaged 5.1 with the Broncos last year. That's despite playing with all kinds of injuries.
54:20He can pass block. Coaches love him. The Broncos have the best offensive line in the league.
54:26They bring back a top five, top three defense.
54:29They should dominate field position in a very running back friendly environment.
54:33And J.K. Dobbins is their clear cut lead back.
54:36I think that R.J. Harvey is pretty clearly a niche back, a change up type.
54:41J.K. Dobbins, look, everyone knows he's gotten hurt basically every year of his NFL career.
54:46So I do understand the bull case against him.
54:49But that injury risk keeps him very, very affordable in drafts.
54:53If we can get 13, 14 games from J.K.
54:56Dobbins this year, he played 13 games in a much worse environment with the Chargers in 2024, and he was the overall fantasy RB21.
55:04I think he smashes his RB30 ADP in a much better situation.
55:08All right. Well said. Leonie, go ahead. Yeah, this is your classic small hit, big miss player.
55:14It's really surprising to hear how Silva has these running backs between Scadaboo, Dobbins, ranked Bucky Irvin, who we talked about earlier.
55:21If Silva's worried about high value touches, trap concerns, that's J.K.
55:25Dobbins, right? I agree. He's a very strong rushing talent.
55:28The efficiency is going to be here behind this offensive line.
55:32But you've got year two R.J. Harvey, who maybe could improve and cut in the role a little bit more at the
55:39very least, is a dynamic target in the passing game.
55:43You've got a rookie in Jonah Coleman. So it's possible these guys cut into Dobbins' workload more than we think.
55:49But even if they don't, there's concerns with the goal line role for Dobbins.
55:54There's concern for the target share. And that lack of high value touches is really concerning.
55:59And Silva's talking about the Giants being a bottom 10 offense in the league.
56:04And those are issues with Cam Scadaboo. If you look at the Vegas team totals for these teams, they're pretty much identical.
56:12The Bucks for Bucky Irving is a full point higher than what you have for the Denver Broncos.
56:18So maybe Silva's right there, but the market certainly doesn't have it that way.
56:22Yeah. I do want to make a point that I think J.K.
56:26Dobbins is better in redraft. In other words, if you're convinced that he's a lock to get hurt, that's going to hurt
56:34you in best ball way more than it will in redraft.
56:37And we've seen some ADP, I think, bleed over.
56:40In other words, to Silva's point, J.K. Dobbins would be going earlier.
56:45The best ball brain, I think, has made his ADP a little bit lower.
56:49I think he's better in best ball than redraft, just because I don't think you're getting a big hit out of J.K.
56:57Dobbins. Those are the guys you want in redraft that you can get this big hit.
57:02I think you might get this consistent, really strong rushing production that gets you a low double-digit points per game, but you're
57:09never going to win in a really big way with the way the role is carved out.
57:15Yeah. Well, I was going to give that argument to Leone anyways there on his argument, which I think is just sounding like, yeah.
57:23I mean, also on Silva's rank here, I can't get on J.K.
57:27Dobbins at 62. Overall, I know I'm supposed to be grading on argument, but I'm going to give that one to Leone.
57:35All right. We have four guys left. The score is Silva 7, Leone 6.
57:39Quentin Johnston next up. Silva 72 overall. ETR 85 overall here on Quentin Johnston.
57:44I believe it is Silva's turn to go first.
57:47So the bet for me here is that Quentin Johnston can keep the Chargers' number two receiver job in an offense that's
57:54going to use a ton of multiple tight end personnel that has two wide receivers on the field the vast majority of
58:02time, and that will be Lad McConkie and Quentin Johnston.
58:05If you read Daniel Popper, who has covered the Chargers as well as any beat writer in the nation for the past
58:13several years, he thinks that Quentin Johnston is pretty locked in as the Chargers' number two receiver opposite McConkie.
58:19With Rayshon Slater and Joe Alt back and Mike McDaniel calling plays, the Chargers are going to score way more touchdowns this year.
58:27And over the last two seasons, Quentin Johnston actually leads the team in touchdowns with 16.
58:32Quentin Johnston at times in his career has been improperly utilized as a boundary X receiver.
58:38And Mike McDaniel's emphasis on feeding receivers on the move and prioritizing run after catch, I think best suits Quentin Johnston's skill set.
58:45He's 24 years old. Okay? He turns 25 in September.
58:49He has a first-round pedigree. He scores touchdowns in an offense that is going to score more touchdowns.
58:55So I have him as the wide receiver 35.
58:58That is wide receiver 3-4 territory. I mean, I think that he's got as much upside as any wide receiver 3-4 that you could get this year.
59:07All right. Leonie, go ahead. Yeah, I like Evan's point about the potential change in utilization under Mike McDaniel for Quentin Johnston,
59:14you know, just utilizing his skill sets better. I think that would be exciting as a route for him to hit more
59:22of a ceiling than maybe we have it. But what we're looking at is a player who, yes, has that first-round draft
59:29capital, but has largely been unimpressive through three seasons.
59:32I know his yards per target spiked last year, but on a similar 8-eye, he kind of just ran a little bit
59:39pure on some more big plays early in the season.
59:43Overall, the 8-out was the same. And his targets per outrun actually fell off quite a bit from 2024 to 2025.
59:50If you look at kind of his profile, it looks kind of like a former Charger, Josh Palmer, except on more routes.
59:57And I'm really concerned he was kind of a route merchant last year, and that could scale back this year.
60:04Evan mentioned the utilization of a lot of two wide receiver sets as they play multiple tight ends, and we agree that happens.
60:12And that does concern me, though, if maybe it's not day one, but over the course of the season, Trey Harris in
60:19his sophomore season can emerge and take some of that role away from Quentin Johnston.
60:24If you listen to the Establish the Edge podcast that Ben Gretsch did with our own Mark and Jack, he kind of
60:31hinted at how highly regarded of a run blocker Trey Harris is, and that's something that's going to get him into a
60:39Mike McDaniel offense, could get him into two wide receiver sets.
60:43And outside of that, too, I do think that there was kind of this weird target share concentration at points last year
60:50that might not be here this season, with Ladd being the clear one in the game, these multiple tight end sets, maybe
60:57some more targets to the running back position than we've seen previously out of this Chargers offense.
61:03So, you know, you put that all together, kind of like a somewhat disappointing player, a little bit of a potential role
61:11challenge, and I'm just not into it at where Silva has him ranked.
61:15Yeah, I'm going to give that one to Leonie on two points.
61:19Number one, it's very crowded in Los Angeles for the Chargers, and number two, I'm not sure Quentin Johnston is good.
61:26In fact, I think he's probably not. So, you know, it's kind of a tough sell for me, especially when I agree
61:33on the Trey Harris points there as well. All right, three to go.
61:38Let's go to Josh Downs. Leonie's going to be up first here.
61:42Silva is at 64 overall on Josh Downs. ETR ranks 82 overall on Josh Downs.
61:47Leonie, go ahead. Yeah, for starters, we're both pretty decently ahead of any sort of half PPR home league ADP that you're going to see on Josh Downs.
61:56You know, with Daniel Jones back, the offense was humming with him last year, and obviously we have Michael Pittman gone, and
62:04in general things have broken well with Downs. Even the re-signing of Alec Pierce isn't a bad thing.
62:10He's a field stretcher, kind of leads underneath targets.
62:13Four downs, he's going to get more routes. I think the concern for me with Silva's ranking is just kind of pricing Downs at his absolute ceiling.
62:22I know we're all expecting, you know, we've done this with players that like, okay, finally, this is the year they cracked the two wide receiver sets.
62:31And if you look at the competition on the surface, it seems like that should be the case.
62:37But we've seen with players like him, Jaden Reed in the past where it doesn't necessarily materialize.
62:43So even with Pittman gone, I don't know if we get as many more routes, maybe as we're anticipating.
62:49There's a dramatic size difference between what Michael Pittman offered and Josh Downs and, you know, still the potential for a Keenan Allen signing here or something.
62:58And while I do like the offense overall, Dimes is coming back from an Achilles injury, which is somewhat concerning.
63:05I know previously I've been too high on like Kirk Cousins coming back from Achilles injury.
63:10Now, Kirk's much older. Aaron Rodgers, when he came back, much older.
63:14So I'm not saying it's going to be bad for Dimes.
63:18I'm just saying there are a few things that add up to a little bit of risk where you can be ahead
63:25of market and be in on Josh Downs without pricing him at this absolute ceiling.
63:30Okay. Silva, go ahead. So Michael Pittman's gone. Alec Pierce is a one-trick pony who's been extremely slow to recover from this ankle operation.
63:38Those two players, Michael Pittman and Alec Pierce, combined for almost 200 targets last year.
63:43This is Josh Downs' contract year. And all signs point to him playing in the Colts' two receiver sets after he was
63:51sort of pigeonholed early in his career to a slot only in 11 personnel.
63:56Matt Harmon has compared Josh Downs to Tyler Lockett, who's a very similar player.
64:00I think it's worth remembering last year that, yeah, Daniel Jones is coming off of this torn Achilles, but last year, before
64:08he got hurt, the Colts led the NFL in offense.
64:11Shane Steichen is the man. And I think that Josh Downs is going to be the leading receiver for the Colts this year.
64:19And in that case... I did mention, too, I think Tyler Warren is really going to be the center of this offense.
64:26That's fair. I'm high on Tyler Warren as well.
64:29But I think Josh Downs is just as good a bet as Tyler Warren to lead the Colts in receiving.
64:36And if the Colts are even a shell of what they did offensively last year before Daniel Jones went down, Josh Downs is going to smash.
64:45Yeah, so Silva didn't really address that Josh Downs is 5'9", 171.
64:49The only thing that Silva did not address in his argument was the likelihood that the Colts add someone.
64:55I think it would be irresponsible for the Colts to go into this season without adding another wide receiver, whether that's Keenan Allen or someone else.
65:04So I'm going to give this one... We did talk about that on our Tuesday show.
65:09The possibility that the Colts really should go after a field stretcher to give them insurance on Alec Pierce, not a player
65:17that should take away work in the middle of the field from Josh Downs and Tyler Warren.
65:22Agreed. And we'll see what they do. But yeah, I mean, I don't trust this Ballard guy at all to do the
65:30right thing or to tell the truth about much.
65:33So yeah. All right. Two left here. Juwan Johnson.
65:36Silva's at 113 overall. That's his tight end 12.
65:39ETR ranks at 147 on Juwan. The tight end 18.
65:42Silva go ahead on Juwan Johnson. For a tight end like this, like I'm just betting on his environment.
65:49I mean, and I think that this offense is going to flow very much through Jordan Tyson.
65:54Jordan Tyson, who I'm extremely high on, and Chris Olave, who I'm also extremely...
65:59I'm just high on all the Saints. Like, I'm betting on the offensive environment for Juwan Johnson.
66:05Obviously, he's a converted wide receiver. He's been excellent for the Colts the last two seasons.
66:10The Colts play indoors. They got a bad defense they got to account for.
66:15You know, it's just... This is a tight end in a great environment with very little threat to his role.
66:22And I think the Saints are going to score a ton of points.
66:26I know that the vast majority of ETR agrees with me on that.
66:30Leonie, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, awesome season for Juwan Johnson.
66:34They ended up with this kind of extreme concentration that I'm a little concerned doesn't carry over, at least to the tight
66:41end position, as we've got, you know, Chris Olave likely keeping that number one alpha target share and a rookie wide receiver
66:49in Jordan Tyson that we're all super excited about.
66:52We were excited about him before camp. We're excited about him hearing positive news out of camp.
66:58Even at the tight end position, clearly Juwan Johnson is going to be the top tight end, but you do have a
67:05little bit more depth to that room than you did last year with Noah Phan and the rookie Oscar Delp there.
67:12You've got Travis Etienne and Alvin Kamara maybe absorbing more targets from the running back position than we did before.
67:19And, you know, I really like Kellen Moore, but it is near to Tyler Shuck that, you know, defenses have more of a read on him.
67:27I'm somewhat concerned that he's just not at the quarterback position.
67:31So all of that kind of sums up to me rather making other tight end bets than really counting on this one breakout year from Juwan Johnson sticking.
67:41Noah Phan is like a clear backup in the NFL and Oscar Delp is a blocker.
67:46Right, but these guys are probably going to see the field more than the guys last year did behind Juwan.
67:53It's not that they're going to steal the role from him.
67:56You know, Evan, I'm going to give you a chance to make one more argument here that you didn't make on Juwan
68:04Johnson and it relates to the shower narrative. Would you like to add anything to your argument about Tyler Shuck and Juwan
68:11Johnson here possibly showering together at the University of Oregon?
68:15Oh, yeah. Back in 2013, Juwan Johnson and Tyler Shuck played at Oregon together.
68:19How old is Tyler Shuck? My God. That's all you have to say.
68:24Shower narrative. Silva gets that one. Okay, going to the final name here.
68:28It is Leonie 8, Silva 8. The final name is Patrick Mahomes.
68:32Silva at 118 overall. His QB 15. ETR ranks 91 overall.
68:36The QB 10. I believe it is Silva going first here on Patrick Mahomes.
68:40This is like shooting fish in a barrel, dude.
68:43I mean, like, Leonie, I'm just going to give you an opportunity right now to prematurely capitulate on this one.
68:50Decline. Hard pass. Patrick Mahomes hasn't been good in fantasy football in, like, a long time.
68:56He actually was last year, but that was because he was running like a madman.
69:01You want to take that one from the top?
69:04He was running like a madman. He had his highest scramble rate of his entire career, and he's already come out and
69:11said that he's not going to run this year coming off the ACL and the LCL.
69:16We already talked about his pass catcher core. This offense is going to funnel through Kenneth Walker.
69:22You can just give me the win right now.
69:25A short but sweet argument from Silva for the finale for closing arguments.
69:29Leonie, go ahead. Well, Silva immediately contradicted himself as he stated that Patrick Mahomes hasn't been good in fantasy for a long
69:37time and then said, oh, he actually was pretty good last year, so that was a good one.
69:43He had a couple, you know, he threw three or more touchdowns in five games last year.
69:49That's like over a third of his game, so even without the rushing component, he was very successful fantasy quarterback.
69:55If you go back the last four or five years, however far you want to go, even with this offense being disappointing
70:03at times in recent memory, on a per-game basis, Mahomes has never been worse than QB 11, QB 12, you know, depending
70:10how you do the scoring, and Silva has him ranked QB 15, so he's expecting a pretty big drop-off.
70:17If you look at how most analysts have the quarterback position ranked from a real-life perspective, Mahomes is still near the top
70:24of most sharp analysts' rankings there, and in terms of pass rate over expectation, I do think this offense shifts a little
70:31more run-heavy than they have in the past with the addition of Kenneth Walker, but you've got to consider that relative to
70:39the baseline, which is the past three seasons, they finished first, second, first, in the entire NFL and pass rate over expectation.
70:46This is a team that leans into their most powerful weapon, and that's Patrick Mahomes.
70:51So at QB 10, where we've got him ranked, there's much more of a logical floor-ceiling combination where it's going to be
70:59very hard for him to not pay off at a minimum Silva's price tag at QB 15.
71:04He literally has never had a season worse than QB 12.
71:08The average team total for Kansas City still, it's not S-tier anymore, but it's still top 10 in the NFL at 24.1 points per game.
71:16Matt Nagy's gone. He was kind of a disaster for this offense, so hopefully there's a rebound there.
71:22So I think for all these reasons, Patrick Mahomes is really, really undervalued as QB 15 in Silva's rankings.
71:29Patrick Mahomes is not going to run and he has one of the worst pass catcher cores in the league this year.
71:36I mean, I can't believe that you have him at number 91 overall.
71:41You need to fix that ranking. You know, Leone didn't make one of the arguments that I think is one of the
71:48good ones for Patrick Mahomes, which is with an actual threat of running game, Mahomes can do more vertical things.
71:55The problem is I don't know that he has the players to do those vertical things anymore.
72:00I'll say this. I agree with Silva's rank on Mahomes more, but I thought Leone made the better argument there as a
72:08whole, and so I will give that one to Leone and the win to Leone.
72:13However, the win now does not matter for two reasons.
72:16Hopefully, we can have an actual appeals process to an actual federal judge and he will hear your appeals on one or
72:24two guys and my rulings and number two, the actual winner, I consider the actual winner of Man vs.
72:30Machine not who won the argument today, but based on results, who won the argument and of course, after every season we
72:37go back and do the Man vs. Machine review and grade these guys that way.
72:43So, yes. Let this be a lesson to you out there.
72:46Complain to the officials early, you get the calls at the end of the game.
72:51In all seriousness, big thanks to these guys for coming out here and defending the rankings.
72:57To be clear, these are not Leone's personal rankings.
73:00I contribute to them in a massive way as does Silva, as does everyone else on our NFL team.
73:06Silva's rankings are the personal ones that are only his.
73:09I just want to say, I know I say this every single year, it is very hard to do it either way.
73:17Silva, from his gut, just from knowing ball knowing, has been incredibly, incredibly accurate on this stuff, which is really hard to
73:24do from your gut and obviously, we think that doing the model based with the hand inputs is like the best way to do this stuff at scale.
73:34It's always close. The results are always close also, so it should be another good battle this year.
73:40All in good fun. Hopefully you guys enjoyed the man versus machine bit for this year and got some value out of it as well.
73:48If you did, listen to Silva. Actually, don't listen to Silva.
73:52Instead of hitting subscribe on the free YouTube, hit subscribe on our in-season product, which you need to see the in-season man
73:59versus machine shows that are coming once a week.
74:02Here. All right. That's going to do it for man versus machine 2026.
74:07Hope you all had as much fun as we did.
74:10For the man, Silva. For the machine, Leone. For Bruce or Luke.
74:14For Bruce or Ryan. I am Adam. Good luck, everybody.
74:17Bye. Bye.