Inside the TE revolution — from someone living it
STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this podcast and kept the full transcript here for context.
1 hr 21 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Jun 5, 2026
Published
Fri, June 5, 2026
10
Player insights
9
Players mentioned
Topics
Darnell WashingtonColby ParkinsonColston LovelandDalton KincaidDavante AdamsKenneth Walker IIIPuka NacuaTerrance FergusonUchenna Nwosu
Player analysis
Player insights
Colby Parkinson
PositiveRole0:45
Colby Parkinson, along with Tyler Higbee, is part of the Rams' strategy to utilize tight ends effectively in their passing game, even from 13 personnel formations.
Insight pageColston Loveland
PositiveRole0:37
Colston Loveland is expected to play a versatile role for the Bears, contributing both as a tight end and in the slot, enhancing their offensive flexibility.
Insight pageDalton Kincaid
PositiveRole0:27
Dalton Kincaid's dual-threat capability as a blocker and receiver makes him a valuable asset for the Bills in their 12 personnel formations.
Insight pageDarnell Washington
PositiveRole0:30
Darnell Washington is noted for his size and ability to serve as a vertical threat, but he may not provide the same versatility as other tight ends in the league.
Insight pagePositiveValue0:43
Darnell Washington's recent extension at $13 million a year highlights the growing investment in tight ends, showcasing his value as a credible blocker and two-way tight end.
Insight pageDavante Adams
PositiveRole0:33
Devante Adams' elite receiving skills contribute to the effectiveness of the Rams' offense, particularly in their 13 personnel formations.
Insight pageKenneth Walker III
PositiveRole0:12
Kenneth Walker's running style is being leveraged by the Seahawks' offensive strategy, which aims to create opportunities for him to get outside the numbers.
Insight pagePuka Nacua
PositiveRole0:33
Puka Nakua's presence as a receiver significantly enhances the Rams' offensive capabilities, especially when combined with their use of 13 personnel.
Insight pageTerrance Ferguson
PositiveRole0:29
Terrence Ferguson's ability to stretch the field vertically adds significant value to the Rams' offense, especially in 13 personnel sets.
Insight pageUchenna Nwosu
PositiveRole0:36
Uchenna Nwosu's physicality and build contribute significantly to the Seahawks' defensive effectiveness against heavier offensive formations.
Insight pageFull transcript
Episode Transcript
0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays.
0:02Today, we're digging into the tight end revolution that has overtaken the league here over the last year or so.
0:08The entire offseason had moments where we realized how valuable tight ends were.
0:11Guys like Charlie Kohler, who we're talking to a little bit later today, get $8 million a year.
0:16Darnell Washington gets $13 million a year as a guy who is primarily a blocking force for the Steelers.
0:21We saw seven kind of Y-ish tight ends drafted in a span of 40 picks on day two of the draft.
0:27This year. There are a lot of different reasons for this.
0:30I think teams are chasing what the Rams did out of 13 personnel.
0:33I think that overall, we've seen an uptick of multi tight end sets across the league.
0:37Derek and I spent a lot of time at the beginning of the show talking about what has led to this moment,
0:43what's fueling it, and maybe what the next stage of it ends up looking like.
0:47But I didn't want to just have a conversation with Derek or Dave or the same group that does the show consistently.
0:53I wanted to talk to somebody who actually is going through this, is actually a part of the show.
0:58Of what this tight end moment in the league has been over the last year or so.
1:03And that's why we wanted to talk to Charlie.
1:05Obviously, he is a guy that in Baltimore was really the third tight end on that team.
1:10A team that really prioritized the receiving tight ends that they had.
1:13But he's somebody that we all thought might be, you know, well, can he be like a role player you get in free agency?
1:20Can he be somebody that is available at a pretty decent price that kind of outperformed that contract?
1:24And it wasn't like a four or five million dollar a year deal.
1:28He got eight million dollars a year as somebody that was a definitive third tight end in Baltimore to go to the Chargers.
1:34And I think in a lot of ways, it's because he really does embody a lot of the things that we're talking
1:40about here and the multifaceted benefits you can get from these sorts of tight ends.
1:44So really enjoyed talking to Charlie about his view on the trends around the league, his view on why this is happening
1:50and what it all means for guys at his position.
1:52So let's get to that conversation with Derek, followed by our chat with Charlie right now.
1:57Very excited to dig into today's conversation. Like I mentioned in the intro, we're gonna be chatting with Charlie Kohler a little
2:03bit later on this show to get some insight on the tight end revolution and the current moment for tight ends from somebody who's currently living it.
2:10But before we got to that conversation with Charlie, just because it was kind of specific to his experience, what his offseason
2:16looked like, just the way that he sees how this has unfolded in the league.
2:20Derek, I wanted to just kind of take a step back and have a somewhat broader discussion about this moment and what's
2:26brought us to this moment before we dig into that conversation with Charlie.
2:29So I mentioned some of these numbers with him, but just to kind of table set a little bit about where we
2:35are before we dig into discussion, I think is worthwhile.
2:38So we've just seen an uptick in the usage of heavy personnel packages in general in the NFL, but also just how
2:44many tight ends that we're seeing on the field compared to what the league looked like even a couple years ago.
2:49So in 2023, per TrueMedia, we were at 62.4% 11 personnel in the NFL.
2:53Last year was at 56.3%. So it's a six percentage point drop.
2:56And that number, 53.6%, 56.3% last year for 11, that's the lowest since 2017 when it was 58%.
3:01Well, what happened in 2017? Sean McVay got to Los Angeles.
3:04And so you saw the uptick even the following year.
3:07It went from 58% in 2017 to about 62% in 2018.
3:10And from there, it's hovered above 62% really essentially for the last like eight seasons.
3:14And now we're falling back down. So now it's sitting there at 56%.
3:17Last year, we were at 22%, 12 personnel. And you compare that to about 16.5% in 2018.
3:22So that's where a lot of that shift has been happening.
3:25So we're just getting more tight ends than we've gotten in years past.
3:28And then when you look at what the Rams did, and I think maybe some of the signal that might lead us
3:34to believe what other teams might do, we're going from 12 personnel to 13 personnel.
3:38And that has started to seep into personnel choices.
3:40We had guys like Charlie Kohler who had 10 catches last year making $8 million a year.
3:45The day we're recording this, Darnell Washington made $13 million a year on his latest extension.
3:49And in the draft, we had seven guys who I think profile as, we'll call them credible blockers, right?
3:54Like not Eli Stowers, the guys that went after him that are credible blockers and credible two-way tight ends.
3:59We had seven of those guys drafted between picks 56 and 95 in this year's draft.
4:04So we are really having a moment here for the way that the league is seeking out tight ends and how many
4:10we're seeing deployed and how central they are to some of the best offenses in the league.
4:14And so I want to start this conversation at a pretty simple place, but an important one.
4:19And I want to ask you, why do you think this is happening?
4:22What do you think are the root causes for what has pushed the league to the point that we're seeing right now?
4:28I mean, I think you do kind of have to go back to when McVay took over the job in 2017.
4:34And then at the same time, that was the year that Patrick Mahomes also got drafted.
4:38And obviously he doesn't end up starting until the following year with Kansas City.
4:42But like we all remember, it was just a handful of years before with Kansas City where they ran a fairly effective
4:48offense without throwing a touchdown to a wide receiver.
4:50Like they were a little bit more of a tight end offense, but they get Mahomes, they get Tyree Kill, they have
4:56this unique tight end in Travis Kelsey, and they become more of an 11 personnel and spread team for a while.
5:02And then you have Sean McVay doing what he did, which a very different world than the way that he was doing 11 personnel.
5:08But you had these two, like the pillars of the offensive football in the league were 11 personnel driven.
5:13And everybody's picking from those trees because as we say a million times, it's a copycat league.
5:18You pick from what those guys are doing. And so that's how you get the Doug Petersons and Matt Nagy is a head coach.
5:24And then obviously the million guys that come off of the McAbee tree.
5:28And so they are trying to replicate that style of offense, which we've talked about before was mostly a response to teams
5:33being like more living in the cover three world and you could kind of expose them this way.
5:38And I think that's a little bit where I want to start.
5:42I think the more I thought about this a little bit, cover three and cover one, it's still a one high league generally.
5:48And like cover three is still pretty popular, but it's less popular now than it was.
5:52And I think when it was at its height, you're playing out of, right?
5:56It's not necessarily the coverages that you're playing. It's how you're starting.
5:59And if you look at the numbers, it's drastically different.
6:02I don't have them in front of me. How many pre-snap two high shells we see now compared to pre-snap two high
6:07shells we saw in 2018, even if the cover three percentages are still the most prevalent of any coverage in the league.
6:13Right. It used to be preloaded. Like you knew what you were getting in the box almost every time.
6:18And I think part of the math that teams were doing in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, all that stuff was that if
6:24we know we're going to have four underneath zone defenders, you probably want guys who are a little bit quicker from the slot.
6:31They can kind of work in and out of those zones a little bit more easily.
6:35Or if teams are going to be a little bit more cover one oriented guys that can just run away from some of these guys.
6:42And I think that was part of the math there.
6:44Now, if we're living in this world where it's guys are like either filling into that buzz, you know, that hook zone
6:50from depth or they're not even playing there at all.
6:53And we're just playing with these three underneath defenders in quarters or cover two or whatever it's going to be.
6:58Those big tight ends, they don't need to move as fast to get into those zones.
7:02Like it's a little bit easier for them to just kind of like find that huge zone.
7:07Quarterbacks are going to pin it on the 6-5 target and it's a little bit easier for those guys to operate.
7:13And so I think from like a coverage and like box count perspective, that's part of why we've seen some of the shift that we're seeing.
7:20And I also think back in that era where you had these teams playing a little bit more 11, you had some
7:25of these, you know, explosive kind of downfield play action passing games or in the Chiefs case, no play action necessary.
7:31You had defenses just get smaller, right? I mean, you had teams now move from, move to a place where nickel just
7:37became the new norm in the NFL. And the types of nickel defenders that we were seeing in those in that time, they were just smaller corners, right?
7:44Like that's how we used to profile nickel defenders were guys that didn't have the size to play outside of the guys that played inside.
7:51Teron Johnson, Mike Hilton, just guys that were a little bit smaller.
7:54Well, I think that now as slot receivers got bigger for a lot of different reasons, right?
7:59Like I think Cooper Cup is the best example of this, but you had this big slot type emerging and you had
8:05these guys who were 200 pounds and could really do a lot of dirty work as blockers in these sorts of 11 personnel offenses.
8:11And as a response to that, nickel started getting bigger, right?
8:14If we're going to play in nickel and we want to make sure that that guy isn't a liability against the run, that player needs to get bigger.
8:22Well, now if the nickels are 220 and your slot receiver is 185, 190 pounds, that is now a disadvantage for you.
8:28And so now I think we're seeing more teams play a little bit more 12, even if they're getting nickel because that
8:33second tight end is going to be a better credible blocker against those big nickel looks that we're seeing from teams like the Seahawks, teams like the Ravens.
8:41And so I think that to me is another one of those important shifts is that as players at certain positions on
8:47defense got bigger, now offenses have had to get bigger to answer that a little bit.
8:51Totally. And I think why teams got smaller was like they realized, well, in 2018, it was kind of easy, easier to generate explosives.
8:58So let's just get the guys who are really, really good at it.
9:01Like that was kind of the small hack in offensive football now.
9:04But if defenses are so dead set on taking that away, it feels like there's a lot more value in just being balanced.
9:10And whether that means running pass, whether that means in your personnel deployment, instead of, you know, being in 11 personnel, 85%
9:16of the time, just keeping defenses a little bit on their toes in terms of personnel, what kind of looks we're giving
9:22them, what downs and distances we're even in. Because I think we live in a world now, too, where offenses do want
9:28to be in second and six more. Whereas in 2019, teams were kind of more OK playing a little bit more boom
9:34and bust because they were just like, we can find the explosives one way or another.
9:38I think it's the down and distant situations and not being able to find explosives.
9:42But I also think it's how many different ways as an offense are you dictating how the game is going to go to defenses?
9:49And I think there's so many different ways we can talk about this.
9:52But one of them is just how much base personnel you're seeing versus how much nickel personnel you're seeing.
9:57And I think with the Rams specifically, and we'll talk about the Rams a lot, but there are also other teams that
10:03I think are doing important things in this world that are worth acknowledging.
10:07But with the Rams specifically, the Rams are at a place where they were getting all nickel all the time to 11
10:13because that's all they played for a very long time.
10:15They bypassed 12 personnel almost entirely. They had a season a couple of years ago.
10:19They played it a little bit more, but this year it was 11 or it was 13.
10:24And by going straight to 13, you're going straight to base defense, right?
10:27And so it's one of the only sure ways that you know you're getting base defense is to be in 13 personnel or 21 or 22.
10:34And if looking at the numbers this year, we got 57% base to 12 personnel league wide per true media.
10:40It was 76% base against 13 personnel. And so if more and more teams are going to try to consciously get teams
10:46into base in order to throw the ball, I think that putting three tight ends on the field is one way to do that.
10:52But I also think that like you're saying, I think overall, the league has moved back to a place over the last
10:58couple of years where you're trying to give away absolutely nothing before the snap.
11:02You're trying to make sure that you can do anything based on who's on the field and the way that you're lined up.
11:08And what's so interesting about that is that's a direct counterpoint to defenses doing that, right?
11:12When defenses got to a place where they were playing a lot of shell before the snap, one of the advantages of
11:18that is you could play any coverage. You could do anything.
11:21Well, and as offenses in 2018, we had a lot of under center play action.
11:25And a lot of that under center play action was designed to have these big crossers and big shot plays against cover three.
11:31The league went away from play action for a little while after we got to a shell based world.
11:36And if you look at the way the league has kind of shifted again over the last couple years, it's really interesting
11:42because we've moved back to that place. In 2023, per her next gen, we were down at 22.4% play action league wide.
11:48One team was over 30%. Five teams are over 27% in 2023.
11:51Last year, we went from 22.5% 2023 back to 25.5% last season.
11:54We went from one team over 30% to four teams.
11:57And we had 10 teams that were over that 27% mark compared to five teams in 2023.
12:02And so when I was watching that happen, I was like, well, why is this happening?
12:06Right? Because if we're at a place where there's more shell coverage and you're not getting the same benefits off play action
12:12by hitting these explosives on these big crossers that you could hit in 2018, 2017, why are teams going to this?
12:17And I think it's a couple different reasons. One, by being under center and using play action, you create uncertainty.
12:23You just create fewer tendencies. You give yourself the opportunity to do anything in the same way that defenses can from their pre-snap looks.
12:29I think the other part of this, and it kind of gets to a conversation we can have about why the Rams
12:35have been able to be effective with this. Teams that are really smart with play action, you watch teams that try to
12:41use play action in an old school way. Like remember, we talked about the quarterbacks this week, going back and watching the
12:47Titans and some of the ways they're trying to use play action.
12:50They're trying to use like these big crossers and goes in the same way you would in 2018.
12:55Well, if you're doing that in a shell coverage, there's overlap and those things just can eaten up.
13:00There's nothing there. If you go watch the Rams use play action, there are four or five eligibles out in the route consistently.
13:06And so we've gotten back to a place where there's more play action than there was a couple of years ago.
13:11And it likens more to what it looked like in 27, 2018.
13:15But the benefits of that are much, much different.
13:17They're built for a modern world. And so I think the play action and under center stuff completely ties into more tight ends.
13:23It all aligns together in a place where you're putting the defense on their heels consistently by playing this way.
13:29And I, my hypothesis for why we've kind of arrived back there is, you know, teams being willing to more play action.
13:35I think it is now clear that like defenses have kind of showed their hand.
13:39This is how defenses want to play. Now I think it allows offenses to be like, okay, now we have a better
13:44sense of how we actually want to run the ball.
13:47Because how much did we talk about two or three years ago where it felt like McVay was kind of in a
13:53transition period with how he wanted to run the ball.
13:56And Kyle Shanahan was in a transition period with how he wanted to run the ball.
14:00And some of these guys were just in this transition period.
14:03Now I think we know, like, you know, McVay has totally shifted what he wanted to do where it used to be
14:09that 11 personnel kind of tight with our receivers.
14:11And it was a lot of like wide zone or wide zone or weak zone.
14:15For him, it was weak zone, especially like 2017, 2018.
14:18That's not really a world that you can live in right now.
14:21Like you just cannot be as effective doing that.
14:24And so he switched to like, hey, instead of creating these like fake long surfaces with having our, you know, wide receivers a little bit closer.
14:31How about we put three tight ends on the line and create a really wide surface?
14:35We're going to run duo and get vertical. And our running back is going to have potentially three or four lanes that he can bounce this through.
14:42And it might not be the most explosive thing because you're basically doing like World War I style trench warfare.
14:47But it does give you incremental gains that get you into those second and fives where, again, you can remain under center.
14:53You can have the threat of play action. You can have the threat of pure pass if you want.
14:58And I think that that has really allowed offenses like McVay to really get ahead of the curve again.
15:03If you look at it, if you look at the numbers out of 13 personnel last year, running the ball is inefficient out of those looks.
15:10It's still inefficient. I think part of that is because a lot of teams have gone to it in defined running situations
15:16where they are these short yardage moments. And so the most part teams being in these having personnel packages, the benefit you're
15:22getting is how much more explosive it makes you in the passing game against base defenses.
15:26And the Rams are better set up to do that compared to anyone out of 13 personnel because what they're doing out
15:32of 13 personnel isn't traditional 13 personnel pass plays.
15:35They aren't these like wadded up. We have one or two receivers out in the route type plays.
15:40They have these guys that even if Colby Parkinson and Tyler Higbee, they're not the most explosive athletes, but they're credible pass catchers, incredible movers.
15:46And when you combine that with Terrence Ferguson, if you go watch what the Rams do out of 13 personnel, they're doing
15:5211 personnel pass concepts out of 13 personnel because Terrence Ferguson is such a viable vertical threat.
15:57And I think a lot of these teams kind of fall into this bucket.
16:01The Seahawks are another team that's absolutely worth bringing up here.
16:03Like Seattle, it's in a different way, but is also helping doing it.
16:07They're doing a really good job of dictating to opposing defenses by the way that they play the Seahawks this year.
16:13They were, I believe second in the league in the percentage of their dropbacks that came against base personnel.
16:18The bears were number one. And if you go look at what Seattle's doing, it's some 12 and 13 personnel, but there's a lot of 21.
16:25There's a lot of 22 and Seattle's offense. When they're in those personal, those heavy personnel groupings, they're doing a little bit of everything.
16:31They'll break it out into empty. You know, they'll have four or five guys out and do a lot of like really cool quick game stuff.
16:38Like it's not just, you know, these wadded up shots down the field type things.
16:42It helps make them more explosive. We can talk about that, but it's a multifaceted approach out of these heavy personnel groupings.
16:48And I think the bears are going to be the team that I'm really interested to watch this year and how they
16:54take advantage of it, because now they have three guys at tight end that can seriously move.
16:58And I wouldn't be surprised at all. If we see a bears team this year, when you combine like 12 and 13
17:04personnel, will it be 40% of the time? Will it be 35% of the time?
17:08Like, I think we'll see a number that feels jarring because of the way that their roster is built and some of
17:14the avenues you can now explore because of the personnel that you have.
17:18And I don't think that would be that crazy.
17:20Like one, they obviously, you know, drafted another guy this year, but like the first year Ben Johnson got there, they said
17:2610th overall, let's draft one of these guys and make sure that he can be like that flex style of, you know,
17:32be in the slot, be out wide if we want to kind of like Seattle has really done.
17:37And obviously they have done with Colson Loveland, but he can be on the line and he can create a lot of those.
17:43I think they're a good example too, because the, what they're trying to do is very different to me from the Rams.
17:49Like the Rams are 13 personnel and then it's a lot of duo and they're trying to just get vertical push the,
17:55the bears are a lot more like how wide can we create this surface so we can get to the edge.
18:00And the same is true of honestly, Seattle, a lot of their stuff when it looks a little bit more normal and
18:06it's just some of their why, why stuff they're trying to like say, Hey, especially last year when they had Kenneth Walker,
18:12it was like, can we just make sure this guy is getting outside the numbers on a run concept?
18:17Because that's what our running backs are good at.
18:20And then that allows you to get into all the other stuff.
18:23And so I think it is interesting that a lot of these teams, even if we're seeing more 12 and 13, it
18:29is often coming from a different place. Some of it is like by necessity, like the Steelers last year, right?
18:34Like they just didn't have good wide receivers. And so they end up in the spot where they're like, we're just going
18:40to put a bunch of beef on the field, try to run as much as we can.
18:44And whoever our ISO receiver is here, we're just going to throw go balls.
18:48We're going to throw slants to them and stuff like that.
18:51And so that's obviously not, they're not a team.
18:54I don't think teams should be taking lessons from, but I think it is interesting that this 12 and 13 world that
18:59we're living in is not like everyone is doing the exact same thing.
19:03You're really arriving at a lot of different places with it.
19:06About a little bit, but I think it's worth bringing up again, just like how to me tied together a lot of
19:12the heavy personnel stuff is with the under center and play action rates that we've seen.
19:16So if you look at the numbers on it from last year, every team in the top half of the league in
19:22explosive pass rate, excuse me, every team in the top 10 in the NFL last year in explosive pass rate was in
19:28the top half of the league in the percentage of their plays where they face brace base personnel while throwing the ball.
19:34Seattle and Chicago was at the top. New England was up near the top of that list.
19:38The Packers are up near the top of that list.
19:41The bills are up in that general range and you can extend it to how many teams and how often teams are playing under center here.
19:48The top 10 teams last year in under center rate when throwing the ball Rams, Seahawks, bears, lions, bills, niners, Packers, Vikings, Cowboys.
19:54Those are the only teams that were over 20%.
19:56I mean, that's all the teams that we think their offenses you should follow.
20:00Here are the top 10 teams in explosive pass rate.
20:03Patriots, Packers, Seahawks, bills, lions, Rams, Colts, bears, Jags, Cowboys.
20:06So eight of the top 10 in explosive pass rate were in the top 10 in under center rate when throwing the ball.
20:12And I think it's for a bunch of different reasons.
20:14Like the under center stuff aligns with a lot more heavier personnel.
20:18So you're dictating it that way. But one of the things I found so interesting, and obviously you don't know this.
20:23The defense doesn't know how the offense is going to align before the play starts, but you have tendencies, you have identities,
20:29you have things that you're picking up on your game planning for.
20:32Last year, out of the shotgun overall, teams played 44% base against 12 personnel when the offenses were in the shotgun.
20:38Under center, it's 56 and a half percent. Yeah.
20:40And so what you are as a team, how often that your under center rate probably aligns at least a little bit
20:46with your willingness to run the ball. Seattle ran the ball as much as anybody.
20:50The bears ran the ball as much as anybody.
20:53The Rams run the ball a ton. And so defenses are game planning with that in mind.
20:57Like these under center heavy teams are these run heavier teams.
21:00So even in the same personnel grouping, you're getting juicier pass looks because of what the entire ecosystem and plan for your offense looks like.
21:07And to me, all of this stuff feeds into each other.
21:10The number of tight ends, the number of under center, the number of play action.
21:14It's all coming from like a similar sort of mindset and combining together to make these offenses and create these offenses that
21:20are giving themselves more juicy looks than a lot of other teams in the league.
21:24And another thing I want to add to like, we're inevitably in a copycat league, right?
21:28Like so many teams have already proven they are trying to do this.
21:32And what's interesting is that if you look at like EPA per play with at least two tight ends on the field over the last five, six years.
21:39So even before we started getting this trend and then into this trend, it's kind of all the same league wide.
21:45It's like somewhere between negative 0.05 and negative 0.03.
21:47The difference is there are teams that are now elite at it.
21:50Like the top six over that last five year stretch, like individual teams who are top five or top six in EPA per play.
21:57The 25 Rams are up there. The 23 Seahawks are up there.
22:00The 24 Ravens. Last year's Colts are up there.
22:02And then the 2022 Chiefs. Funny enough, the one exception like that is not within the last three years is the 2016
22:08Falcons, which kind of always felt like an offense that was a little bit ahead of its time and always going to be an outlier in those ways.
22:16All right, before we move on, let's take our first quick break.
22:19One of the other things I'm really interested in is talking to, and I mentioned this to Charlie when we talk a
22:25little bit later, but it's worth kind of digging into a little bit more here and talking to a lot of offensive
22:31coaches this spring, just wide ranging discussions. But this has come up several different times in those conversations where offenses.
22:36I think it's how often are you making sure that you're playing first down or just avoiding third down, right?
22:41Like, and that can happen whenever. If it's second and eight and you're in the gun, it's third down.
22:47Well, 100 people, you don't, you don't want to be in downs and distances where your hand is forced on the play sheet.
22:53You want it all to be open. And so I'm wondering how much of a shift do we see in that, right?
22:59So if it's second and eight, are we going to see more teams because four down is live where you're under center
23:05on second and eight, and you're trying to still give yourself a chance to do a little bit of everything.
23:10You can run the ball out of that. You can use play action out of that.
23:14The Bears and Seahawks last year were at about a 40% run rate on second and seven plus.
23:19They were the two highest in the league. League average is about 28%.
23:22Teams last year played base defense to 12 personnel, 41% of the time on second and seven plus.
23:27So if you're only getting base 40% of the time and you're getting nickel 60% of the time, but now we have four downs to work with.
23:35Should teams actually be running the ball more or should they be willing to present those looks more often on second and
23:40seven plus than they typically would have in the past?
23:43I think all of this stuff is related. All of this stuff kind of plays into the same mindset and the same thinking.
23:49And it's not to me an accident that you're seeing more and more teams.
23:53The same teams are doing all this shit. All the same teams are bucketed this way.
23:57And they probably should. Like the answer is they probably should because so much of what the push and pull of offensive
24:03and defensive football is one side of the ball kind of pushing something to an extreme and saying, I dare you to
24:09do the thing that I know counters this because there's a counter to everything in football.
24:13There are answers. The sport in some ways is solved.
24:16Like there's moving targets, but it's like we know what the counters to a lot of things are and the counter to,
24:22yeah, if they're going to play 40% lighter boxes and nickel and stuff on second and eights, that feels like a passing
24:28down and they're going to treat it that way.
24:30We'll start running the bottom until that number moves up to 50, 55%.
24:34And it's less of a guarantee that the defense feels like they can operate that way.
24:38I mean, let's just play it out. Like let's say it's second and seven.
24:42You are willing to run the ball. You gain four yards.
24:45We get to third and three. Now I think we're at a place where, especially where you are on the field and
24:51teams are starting closer to the goal line than they ever have.
24:54So now we're going to be in more down in distances and more series are going to start when you are closer
25:00to a place where you're probably willing to go for it on fourth down.
25:03And so if it's second and seven, you run the ball for four yards and it's third and three again, third and
25:09three, I think once again becomes a play where you probably should be willing to run the ball depending on where you are on the field.
25:16If it's like the 40, like the minus 40 or closer, the minus 45 or closer, you probably should be willing to
25:22run the ball on third and three in a way that you wouldn't be willing to do that 10 years ago.
25:28And that makes tight ends more valuable because tight ends are going to be helpful in those situations.
25:33And tight ends give credence to you being able to run the ball there or play action there.
25:37Like it all kind of just feeds into each other in a way that I think really speaks to the moment that we're experiencing.
25:44That's a great point. There's a much higher chance now that with the way that the league works that your first third
25:50and three is that, is that what, like the, you know, the minus 42 or something like that, as opposed to that
25:56used to be the 27 at the 27, you're not even going to, you know, even if you get the fourth and
26:02one, you're not going to think about going for it.
26:04But at the 44, I might think about it depending on what the game situation is or whatever it's going to be.
26:10So I think that that, that, that's a really good point is that you are so much quicker to get into a
26:16scenario where like you are in four down territory.
26:18Whereas 10 years ago, you were at least one first down away, if not two from really feeling like you were even in that territory at all.
26:26What I think is cool about this is that, you know, 12 personnel isn't a new idea.
26:30It we, the league was more 21 before the sport just changed entirely in 2007 when the Patriots did what they did, right?
26:36I mean, we were a very kind of 21 heavy, 20 personnel heavy sport before that happened.
26:41And then the league starts to go to 11, but 12 personnel is not a new idea.
26:45I think the types of players that you're seeing in these 12 personnel looks, that to me is what feels like it's
26:51changing a little bit where I think we used to have, and this is anecdotal, but I assume there, there will be
26:57numbers that would back this up the way I envision like old 12 personnel.
27:01It's a couple of different things. Like if you're the Eagles, you have to like kind of pass catching options, right?
27:07Or like one defined pass catching option in Ertz.
27:09And then one that's maybe a little bit multifaceted in a Goddard.
27:12And I think that's kind of how I think about it, where you have these teams that have one, maybe slightly more
27:18traditional tight end and one guy that's purely a pass catcher, the bills, right?
27:22Like the bills with Dalton Kincaid, I feel like are like this, but I think what you're seeing now and the Rams
27:28are kind of like this, but I think, you know, the, the bears are specifically like this.
27:32And I think they're the team that I would go back to here.
27:36And I think even Rausch kind of plays into this.
27:39If you have two or three guys that can do enough of both things that are credible enough blockers and credible enough
27:44receiving threats, then you get to a place where you could do anything.
27:48You could do anything out of that 12 personnel, because I think one of the problems was, and I go back to
27:54the bills again, the thought process with some of these teams was, okay, we're going to play in 12 personnel.
27:59If you match us with nickel, we'll just grind you down.
28:02If you match us with base, we'll be able to throw the ball all over you.
28:06Well, if your second tight end is not a good enough blocker to take advantage of those nickel looks, then you don't
28:12create an advantage for yourself anywhere because you're just going to be getting nickel all the time and you don't have an
28:18advantage in the passing game and you can't realize an advantage in the running game.
28:22But if you have enough guys, the two to three tight ends that you have that can do both and clear the
28:28bar in both, then you do realize those theoretical benefits that teams tried to talk themselves into in previous years, but couldn't actually access.
28:35And I think we'll see more teams seeking out the exact types of guys we saw drafted on day two, because even
28:40if they're not dynamic players, they check the box in both areas enough where it gives you a path to being this
28:46sort of 12 and 13 personnel team. I think that is 100% true of the 12 personnel stuff.
28:51Some of the 13 personnel stuff, I think specifically with the Rams, it almost feels like for that exact reason, that's why
28:57they're not a 12 personnel team is that some of their guys are a little bit on the lower end, even still with blocking.
29:03And so they make up for it by like, hey, just throw another one out there and we'll get these long surfaces
29:09and stuff that we want and guarantee base. Like you said.
29:12In 13, I actually think you need one guy who is different than that, right?
29:16Like, yeah, that's a good point. They can't all just be.
29:19Yeah. 13. I actually think you need one guy who has a little bit of verticality to him.
29:24And maybe this is just a result of watching what Terrence Ferguson does for the Rams, but you see how impactful that skill set is.
29:31And so I predicted to like the teams that we're going to see do it this year, like the chargers, right?
29:36Like Gadsden has enough giddy up to him where if you're in 13, can he be at least a field stretcher for
29:42you to create space and act more as a wide receiver in those looks?
29:46And the exact same way that Terrence Ferguson can for the Rams for the Bears.
29:50I think Lovelland can credibly do that. The Seahawks are interesting.
29:53Like, I think Arroyo is, he moves really well.
29:55I wonder if he has like that sort of vertical push to him.
29:59But I think that skill set among your tight end group is going to be really valuable because that's the thing that
30:05allows you to run 11 personnel plays out of 13.
30:07That is a good point. It does feel like there's going to be one team who has to like tries to, but
30:13actually the Steelers are kind of this. Obviously the Steelers landed in a spot where they had to use 13 personnel because
30:19their receivers were just non-existent outside of DK Metcalf.
30:22To me, none of those guys are necessarily like true vertical pushers in the way that like Terrence Ferguson is like, you
30:28could ask Darnell Washington to run 25 yards down the field and just be a skyscraper.
30:32But that is different than having Terrence Ferguson like on some of these, you know, these like throwback wheels or some of
30:38these actual seam routes or whatever they're going to be.
30:40And so that is a good point that like if you want a good example of what it looks like to be
30:46a 13 personnel team where you don't actually have that verticality, it's there's a lot of differences between the Steelers and the
30:52Rams, but that is one of them. The one last thing I want to say before we talk about where the next,
30:58what the next step of this looks like potentially about how defenses will counteract it.
31:02I also just think when you look at the teams that are really good at this and some of the concepts that
31:08you're seeing out of it, there's also just an air of unpredictability, not only to whether you'll run or pass out of
31:14those looks, but how the routes will distribute. Like if you have like a YY look to one side, you can have
31:20the outside tight end release inside and have the inside tight end block out.
31:24You can do so many different things. You can have one guy slice across the formation and you can, I mean, there
31:29are just so many iterations to how the play can play out.
31:33And the same way that we see motions or like the out motion that the dolphins were using a few years ago,
31:39or just fast motion in general, where it plays with the number counts with right before the snap.
31:43Well, if those tight ends are lined up right next to each other, you can use like switch release type concepts where
31:49that number changes really quickly and guys just get lost.
31:52And the Rams are doing a ton of that last year.
31:55And so there's just so many different little layers and wrinkles.
31:58If you understand the benefits of this, that you can access.
32:01The biggest question is going to be how many teams actually understand those benefits.
32:05Like it is so easy to look at, oh, the Rams use 30% 13 personnel last year.
32:09We're just going to do more of that. And that's all we're going to need to do on offense.
32:14When in actuality, if you're chasing, that's not even a trend like that.
32:18That's just like a very simple idea. But even if you're chasing last year's trend, you're still probably not going to be able to realize the benefits.
32:25And so I think we're going to see a lot of teams try to take some of the heat off of this
32:31from last year and not get what they think they're going to get out of it.
32:35And that's usually just how this thing goes. It's how it went with like the big cover three movement and stuff like
32:41that is that teams realize that it's a lot harder to do.
32:44And I think part of it with the Rams is like it's obviously good foresight on their part of like finding this
32:50unique way to go about it and to build the room and do all this stuff that they did and make the
32:56offense different, get into different run concepts. It also works in large part because the two wide receivers are Puka Nakua and Devante Adams.
33:02Like when those guys are on the field, like that helps a lot when those guys are the receivers that you're putting out there.
33:09And so I think that there are like some lessons to be learned in terms of what we've talked about of just
33:15keeping defenses honest and making them play in the personnel types that you want and play into base.
33:20But I think you have to worry how much teams are going to over index into this a little bit, thinking that
33:25this is like a special sauce rather than like what the special sauce is, is just like finding the next thing.
33:31It's not that 13 personnel is special. It's that finding the next thing is special.
33:35And that's why McVay is who he is, is that when we do this again in four years, if he's still coaching,
33:41McVay is probably going to be at the forefront of it for whatever we decide that the new offensive thing is going to be.
33:47And so we've talked a lot about the Rams offense influencing what we're going to see.
33:52Do we see the Seahawks defense influence what the reaction is going to look like?
33:56Because I think in obviously the Seahawks, like you just said, with the Rams receivers kind of feeding into their ability to
34:02play this way, the Seahawks are able to play a specific way on defense against their team personnel because of the players that they have.
34:08Even worry, but also just the way that their front can hold up against those looks playing out of nickel.
34:14But if I'm looking at it and I'm trying to figure out, all right, what is the offense trying?
34:19What advantage are they trying to create by playing this way?
34:22The real answer is that they're trying to put you in looks that are advantageous for them to throw the ball against.
34:28So isn't the most logical response to that just saying, we're not going to do that.
34:32Like, we're just not going to play base defense often enough for you to have those looks.
34:36We're going to play nickel. And if it means that we have to die slow, we're going to die slow.
34:42And that's what the Seahawks said. And in reality, the Seahawks held up when the Rams ran the ball out of 13 personnel.
34:48Last season, there were 123 runs out of 13 personnel against nickel looks in the NFL.
34:5232 of those, so a quarter of them, were the Rams against the Seahawks.
34:56So in reality, it doesn't happen very often elsewhere.
34:58Like, that was the majority of it. But the Rams running game was less effective running the ball out of 13 against
35:04nickel than it was on all their other runs from last year.
35:07Again, part of that is that the Seahawks are uniquely set up to give you trouble.
35:12But I still think if I'm just playing the odds and trying to figure out how do I stop the offense from
35:18doing it what it wants to do? Just being willing to line up in lighter personnel packages with a bigger nickel against
35:24these looks to me feels like the correct response.
35:26I think it probably is, but I think teams need to understand why that works for Seattle specifically.
35:31Obviously, part of it is Nick Emanwari is kind of a unique talent in the way that he's built for that position.
35:37But part of the reason they can also do that is the way that they've built the front.
35:41I mean, think about the guys who are setting the edge for them.
35:45DeMarcus Lawrence, Uchenna Nwosu, like Derek Hall. It's guys who, if you are a little bit lighter in the box initially, whether
35:51that's by box count or by, you know, it being a 215 pound safety instead of a 240 pound linebacker.
35:56Well, these guys are buying you more space and they're buying these second and third level fitters more time to get there.
36:02And I think that this was this has been a failing of some of the teams that have tried to live a
36:08little bit more in this too high world as them either not understanding how important that is or just not being able
36:14to acquire the talent for that for them to be able to get there.
36:18Second round picks and and trades and just all these other stuff.
36:21First round picks, even with Byron Murphy, obviously. The role players that you have along your defensive front become so important if
36:27you're trying to build the type of defense that can hold up against these looks like you need those guys that just
36:33I mean, you look at like the way Nwosu was built and just like how stout he is and players like that.
36:39Derek Hall just got $14 million a year, you know, as like one of those kind of physical secondary edge players that the Seahawks have.
36:45I wanted to ask you, what is your what's your answer to what comes next?
36:49Like, what do you think is like the next wave of this, the next phase of this specifically with what defenses might do?
36:55I mean, I think part of it actually is going to be I think even the Seahawks are actually a decent example of this.
37:02I do think and maybe this is me just playing into some of my biases.
37:06I think being stouter at linebacker is going to be important again, because we lived in a world for the last five,
37:1210 years where we've been more willing to get these guys who are more run and chase players.
37:17And I think when you were living in more of a preloaded, you know, one high load the box role, there were
37:22just more opportunities and more chances for plays to spill out to the perimeter and for those guys to be able to
37:28run and chase players or you're immediately like firing guys into gaps and you want them to be there quickly.
37:34Now that I think we live in this more like they're trying to choke you out as a run unit and you
37:40just need those guys to step up and take back space for you and plays are getting funneled back to the inside.
37:45One with the way that offenses are aligning and two with the way that defenses are aligning.
37:50I do think being a little bit stouter in that sense is going to be a lot more important.
37:55And it's why like Ernest Jones is obviously he's a good coverage player because he's smart.
37:59He's not like particularly good sideline to sideline. Like that's just not really where he went.
38:04Those are the two things that he is. And that's kind of, I think smart, long, and can you step down and hit a guard?
38:10I do think that those things are becoming a little bit more important.
38:14I don't think we're ever going to get back to a world where it's, you know, 2009 and Derek Johnson is like one of the premier linebackers.
38:21I don't think we're ever going to get there, but I do think having a little bit more of that is probably going to become important.
38:28It's definitely, you know, the thing that we're watching as the season starts and as the next season unfolds is like where
38:34all of this goes and seeing the craze that happened in the draft and just seeing the league so directly respond to what the latest trend looks like.
38:41I guess it shouldn't be surprising, but it's always jarring even in the moment.
38:45So we've got a lot of time here to chew on what the next day, what the next stage of the tight end revolution looks like.
38:52All right, before we get to our conversation with Charlie, let's get to our next quick break.
38:57Charlie Kohler is a guy who got, he had 10 catches last year, got $8 million a year because he, in a
39:03lot of ways, embodies exactly what we're talking about.
39:05And so it was very cool to get his perspective on what this moment has looked like for somebody who is currently living it.
39:11So let's get to our conversation with Charlie right now.
39:14Joining us now, which I'm very excited to say, it is Los Angeles Chargers tight end, Charlie Colder.
39:19Charlie, how you doing, man? Good. Thanks for having me on.
39:22What's up, guys? Very much looking forward to this conversation.
39:25I, during your justifiably viral press conference, that's what I will call it.
39:28You said something that on top of the creme brulee and on top of all the talk about blocking that was like
39:34just incredible to hear, you mentioned that you were a nerd who really enjoyed thinking about kind of the trends in the NFL.
39:40And that piqued my interest because you will have a home on this show if that is the case.
39:45And I think one of the more interesting parts about this is that you were at the center of one of those trends right now.
39:52Like the, we are having a moment for tight ends in the NFL.
39:55And I thought, what better way to explore what that has looked like over the last year or two than by talking
40:01to someone who is currently living it day to day in the way that you are.
40:06My wife said my face was on her screen too much.
40:09So I know I need to shut up and start doing interviews.
40:12Because I just kind of speak off the rip and sometimes get a little long winded.
40:16But no, I think what the tight ends are doing right now is super cool.
40:20I think it's a lot of stuff going on.
40:22Look forward to talking about it. So I want to just go to your off season and what it looked like.
40:28Because when we were previewing free agency this year, you know, we do little categories and like, you know, who are guys
40:34that maybe are a little bit under the radar that you're excited about seeing where they land.
40:39And you were somebody that came up several different times.
40:41I was like, man, Charlie Kohler is somebody that, you know, I think that you could get him at a decent price.
40:47He's somebody that can come in and contribute and be a wide tight end and do a little bit of everything.
40:53And then you get the contract that you got as early as you got it.
40:57And I think that in a way that kind of is like a signal of where and how the position is being valued.
41:03And then it extends into the draft and we'll talk about that.
41:06But I want to just get a sense from you of when did you know that you would have that sort of market in free agency?
41:13Like, how early did you have a sense that that was going to happen?
41:17It's still like, I'm still like kind of a cheap bastard.
41:20And so it's really like, it's hard for me to like process that amount of money.
41:24Um, sometimes it's like, I'm just incredibly floored and grateful.
41:27Um, you know, I still have trouble paying for the cheese on the cheeseburger.
41:30Sometimes a bebop. But, uh, you know, kind of starts to go.
41:34I think what I'm learning is like the combines a big time kind of, um, they kind of use it as like
41:40a pseudo information gathering for the free agency as well.
41:42And, um, I knew my agent went there that like, it was, there was a good chance it was going to be a good free agency.
41:49Um, I think a lot of teams, you know, it's just like, I believe in myself as a player, but I know like my stats weren't that good.
41:57Like, I don't know. I think I had like 10 catches last year, which is like, it's not that many catches.
42:02And then it's a stats based league, you know, it's a production league.
42:06And it's like, I believed in myself as a player.
42:09Um, like I know, like I've, I've put on the tape that I can do the blocking and I obviously got to
42:14keep Kim better, but, but I really didn't have a lot of receiving tape.
42:18And so I was just like hoping that, you know, people saw that, like, I could still do that.
42:23Like, that's all I did in college. Um, it's not like I forgot.
42:27We just had a really good room, you know, a lot of mouths to feed in Baltimore.
42:31Um, so that was like pretty cool when combine came around and I was like, Hey, I got, I don't want to, you know, sell false soap.
42:39I think there's a good chance it's going to be really good for your agency.
42:43A lot of teams like you and kind of see, uh, see you the way that we see you as a player.
42:48You're able to be on the edges and set edges, but also make plays in the play action and down the seams and stuff.
42:55And, uh, so kind of that week or two going into free agency, I had a good idea, but you never actually know until like the money's there.
43:02And so once we got to Monday and it started quick and I was like, okay, this is going to be, this is going to be good.
43:10And then you, I, you, you said that you had had like a zoom with a lot of the stakeholders there, whether
43:15it was Joe, Mike, Jim, uh, Jim, and they were kind of laid out the vision that they had for you and
43:21like what they expected of you in the offense.
43:24Just tell me a little bit about that. Like what were kind of the elements of that and how they saw your
43:30role and how it might be expanded compared to, again, like you said, a more limited version of what you did in Baltimore.
43:36Yeah, it was an awesome zoom. Like I, like I said, I have no hard feelings towards Baltimore.
43:41Like they made a great offer and like, I love my time there.
43:44Like I love my teammates, like, like playing with like Lamar and Derek and those guys, like that's some of the coolest things ever.
43:51Like I grew up watching them win Natties and Heismans.
43:53Um, but it was just like the way that they kind of laid it out with the Chargers is the way that, you know, like you subscribe.
44:00Like I kind of saw myself like not just one dimensional, be able to help in both facets.
44:05And also, I mean, I love McDaniel's zone scheme.
44:08I think it fits well, the ability to, you know, attack edges, went off the ball, play in combination with both the
44:14running backs, the fullbacks and the tackles and tight ends.
44:16Um, and I just love the energy, man. Like a lot of guys, um, you know, it's funny with McDaniel, like you
44:22see all like, you know, the funny press conferences and the outfits, but like the guy loves football.
44:27The guy's a, the guy's a whiz when it comes to the run game.
44:31Um, and just hearing him and coach Harbaugh and Chandler and just talk about it.
44:35And then Joe is just like, it was just what I thought of myself and like the way I see the game,
44:41like very reflective of the way they were talking.
44:43And like kind of right then I knew that, Hey, this is like a really good spot.
44:48I can see myself flourishing here and able to help the team do better.
44:51And then let's, let's make this work. So I, the, the center of all of this, I think is just the shift
44:57that we've talked about a lot over all of last season and then into this off season.
45:02So I just want to throw out a couple of the numbers just to give people some context in a sense of
45:08like what this shift has looked like in the NFL.
45:10And so in 2023, the league was like 62.4% 11 personnel.
45:13So we're getting close to like two thirds of every snap last year.
45:17We were at 56.3%. So in a two year span, we had a massive drop off from the amount of three receiver
45:23sets we were seeing to where the league was going.
45:25We're in a place now where a guy who had 11 catches last year can make $8 million a year.
45:31It's a wonderful place for you, but it's, I, to me, it's a very interesting spot for the league, right?
45:36So that can happen in free agency. You look at what happened on day two of the draft and this run on
45:42guys who have this more traditional kind of wide tight end background going so much earlier than we expected and having this
45:48early run on guys at that position. So I just wanted to ask you as we get into this conversation, why do you think this is happening?
45:55Like, why do you think players of your kind of profile and archetype are having this sort of moment in the NFL over the last year or two?
46:03Oh, it's a pretty sick rate of return on catches for me.
46:06It's like a million dollars a catch, man. Incredible.
46:08I got to get some stocks. And I, I like, I joke about that, but you know, like you get paid for
46:14production, but also like what you, they see you to do.
46:17And like, I know I can catch the ball like way more than that.
46:21And I, but I think, um, man, how much time we got?
46:24I can go on. We got a lot. We got a lot of time.
46:28I want you to go as deep as you please here.
46:31That's dangerous conversation. I can, I can go on a rant.
46:34She asked my wife. I can go on tangents on tangents and have no idea where I started.
46:38I think there's a ton of reasons. Um, might be kind of like too basic and like too simple breaking it down.
46:44But like the NFL is a business, like it's a business to make money just like every other business.
46:49And I think that, you know, one of, I think one of the reasons is that tight ends are cheaper than receivers.
46:55Um, you know, you look at, you look at tight ends around the league and like even rooms that are really well
47:01compensated tight ends might be, you know, a cumulative 20 or 30 million in the tight end room.
47:06Receivers can be 40 plus one guy. And I think like, I think part, like, I don't know.
47:11I'm not in the GM meetings, but I think part of it is like, Hey, if we can play 12 personnel and
47:17pay these two guys 15 million versus 11 personnel, we're paying the receivers, you know, 70 million.
47:21I think, I think, you know, as tight ends will grow, hopefully the compensation will grow with it.
47:26But I certainly think money is part of that.
47:29It's hard to think that it's not. And then I think from, if you take the money out of it from a
47:34football perspective, like I remember, like I used to honestly watch more football outside of when I, before I got in the
47:40NFL, cause you know, you watch much more film and, um, and you're just a lot more football.
47:45So I remember like in high school and college, I was like, you kind of started to see the trend of like
47:51the smaller, faster receivers and like football is just like a big ebb and flow between offense and defense.
47:56So like, all right, offenses get faster. Defenses play deeper coverages, you know, defenses play nickel and then big nickel and cover
48:02two and shell and force you to go on, you know, 10, 12, 14 play drives.
48:06And that's very difficult. Like it's very difficult. And I think tight ends kind of help with that stuff because when you
48:12are forced to be efficient on every, on much higher percentage of the plays, you know, you don't have the 30 yard bombs all the time.
48:19You just can't have zero and negative yard plays.
48:22And I think that's where like in the passing game, you know, tight ends are larger.
48:26And so if you're going to throw the ball over the middle or short things below the sticks, like they're just bigger targets.
48:32Like it's easy to throw a stick route to a tight end.
48:35It's easy to throw over the middle basic. And I think in the run game too, it's like, I think coaches are
48:41a little more comfortable having tight ends block a big nickel versus a receiver.
48:45Cause you know, somebody's like, somebody's nickels are not good matchups.
48:48Like somebody's nickels are incredible. Like, you know, I think KM in Baltimore, um, during we're now here, like these guys are big, like these guys are dudes.
48:55And I think it's like very difficult to have, you know, your F receiver who might be 190 pounds trying to block the guy is 220 or 210.
49:03And so I think that's a big part of it.
49:06And then also, I just think it's like the, like, it's kind of just like what is like trendy, if that makes sense.
49:12And by people like teams that are having success with like, you know, they'll do the Superbowls the last few years.
49:17Like they're just littered with elite tight ends. And I think that like teams try to replicate what teams are doing at the top.
49:24Like, you know, you saw, um, uh, I mean, for example, like we saw the Chiefs in the Atari kill just bombs everywhere.
49:30Like, you know, I want to put cover two and like, we're going to try to stop that.
49:35Or like, you know, you see Kittle and Kelsey and the Patriots and all these guys, the Superbowl good tight ends, you know, they replicate that in Seattle.
49:42And I think it's a, I think it's a compliment.
49:45And then the last thing is also, I think I'll try to get off the soapbox, but there's a lot of things.
49:51I think the last thing is, you know, I think like, this is kind of a guess, but I think with everything
49:57in football, like kind of works together. So that's the crazy part of football.
50:00There's so many variables in every game, every offense, every season, the flow, the building of the offense.
50:05I think one thing you're seeing is like, because of the nature of young and youth sports and high school and college
50:11being more and more about like money and less and less about development.
50:15I think that when you have guys that transfer and aren't able to build the same system, you know, when you are
50:21like, for me, like right now I'm learning the offense of the Chargers.
50:24I'm just trying to learn the most basics. And then once you get that, you learn the details.
50:29And so I think from everyone in, you know, high school and college football, there's less development of the mental side of the game.
50:35And I think that affects every position, but more so than most, the most difficult position in sports, the quarterback.
50:41And I think that when you have, let's say maybe, I don't know, but maybe the quarterbacks are coming in, maybe 10%
50:47less developed on the mental side of the game 20 years ago compared to now or now compared to 20 years ago.
50:52Well, now you got to run the ball because it takes pressure off their plate, stuff like that.
50:57And so it's not like a shot at quarterbacks that the quarterbacks in this league are elite.
51:02I don't know if there's, I mean, it's hard to find 32 humans in the world who can play quarterback.
51:07It's so difficult. And so I think that when you have this like huge confluence of events of tight ends are cheaper,
51:13you know, maybe quarterbacks aren't quite as developed coming in the league.
51:16They're playing big nickel. It just leads to why don't we just play 12 personnel or why don't we just play 13 personnel?
51:22And I think it's like kind of a lot of all those things, maybe some are missing.
51:27Also, I'm just like one perspective. I'm certainly not the best overall development of the league because I get tunnel vision on my own self.
51:34You know, it's tough for me to watch a game.
51:36I don't necessarily pick up, oh, I think the corner is really good.
51:40I'm watching the D. You know, I'm watching for myself.
51:43Like I'm watching the D ends, the linebackers, the safeties, you know.
51:46So, but that was my try to be efficient two cents on the issue.
51:49I think all of those are very important considerations.
51:52The financial one, I think we haven't talked about enough and it absolutely is part of this.
51:56Like you can look at the top of the market.
51:59And even if you compare the top of the market, Trey McBride makes $19 million a year.
52:04Jamar Chase makes $40 million. What do you have, 100 catches last year?
52:07Like I understand, like, like I get, like, you have a guy going to 4-2 and you take the top off the defense.
52:13Like there is like compensation that's needed for that.
52:16But just from a money perspective, like it's tough to pay one position group $60 million and have money to build an entire team.
52:22And that's just like the way the receiver market has gone because it's accelerated so much faster exponentially than tight ends and running backs and alignment.
52:29So you've seen the same thing with edge defenders too.
52:32Like they have gone up, like it kind of was edge and tackle.
52:35Now it's edge. And so I just think like all that stuff is everything is nothing happens in isolation.
52:40Nothing happens immediately. It's all ripple effects down the line.
52:43So the top of the market, again, you got 2X, the guys at the top of the receiver market, top of the tight end market.
52:50But even in free agency, like I won't name names, but there are guys that over the last couple of years have
52:56gotten $10 million AAV contracts that are like fourth receivers that are very specific, like situational roles.
53:00You can pay a wide tight end in free agency.
53:03Somebody like you is going to be a starter less than that to be like an every down player.
53:08And so I, the financial part of it totally makes sense to me.
53:11And then now we can get into like the cyclical kind of schematic element of it, right?
53:16Like we said, we get to a place and, you know, kind of coming out of like 2018 with the Chiefs and
53:22where offense is just, I mean, I think back to me always the, the tipping point moment or like the pinnacle moment
53:28is going to be that Monday night Chiefs Rams game where it's like, this is, we get to the height of what offensive football feels like.
53:35Offenses are so far ahead. And then you kind of get to the 2018 end of the season.
53:40And, you know, we don't need to belabor this because we talk about a million different times, but you have the kind
53:45of Rams and lions games or the bears and lions games against those Rams teams.
53:49You kind of see a little bit of a chink in the armor, and then you get to the Superbowl and, you
53:55know, Belichick just completely dismantles that Rams offense by playing a ton of quarters and just taking away all of those crossers
54:01and putting those down those six man fronts. And we get to a place where shell coverage is the norm in the NFL.
54:07And so if you're going to have these teams playing in light boxes, you're going to have to be able to run the ball more efficiently.
54:14And one of the considerations with that, like you said, when we had, when Nichols in the NFL, when, when Nichols were
54:20just the smallest cornerback you had that was playable, it makes a lot of sense for your 11 personnel, the slot receivers to be digging those guys out.
54:28When you have Nick Amonwari playing in the nickel, it's going to be a little bit harder for your 200 pound receiver,
54:34even on the bigger side to be the one tasked with blocking those guys.
54:37And so that to me feels like just the two kind of cyclical schematic things that have kind of pushed us to
54:43this place where just by necessity, if you're going to be blocking that nickel now, a guy built like you has a
54:49much better chance of accomplishing that against Derwin James than a guy who's 190 pound slot receiver.
54:54Yeah, I agree. I mean, as much as like the, like legal is getting faster and stuff, like it's still like, it's
55:00always going to be who wins in the trenches, wins the game most of the time.
55:04And that's like, you just see in the Super Bowl, like this past year, Seattle was so good up front on both sides of the ball.
55:11The year before that, who was the Eagles? They're so good.
55:14Like it's just, if you have like good O-line, tight end, D-line linebacker play, like if you were able to, I know
55:20like the stats, like say what they do and like analytics is a huge part and that's part of it, it's big.
55:26But there is a difference mentally to being able to run the ball at will and pass the ball at will.
55:31Because like passing the ball, like it's frustrating. I know like from defense, it's frustrating, but sometimes they're just good.
55:37If you can run the ball at will, even when they're selling out, like that is demoralizing.
55:41Like as an offensive, you can't run the ball, that is demoralizing.
55:44And I think there's like an emotional element to it too, where people are kind of realizing like, hey, maybe no analytics.
55:50So this is a little bit more efficient or I don't know what they say, but if you can run the ball
55:56for four yards at will, you're going to win a lot of football games.
56:00I think like one thing that we kind of, kind of someone explained to me too, a few years ago, and like it makes sense.
56:07It's just like, you come back to like the money thing.
56:10NFL wants to be a business to make money.
56:12All right. Who's the number one player that draws viewers on NFL, the quarterback.
56:16And it's like, I think teams realize it too.
56:18They're like, we have to keep our quarterback healthy.
56:21How do we do that? And if you are in, everyone knows this, like there is nothing, there's probably something.
56:26There's not many things worse on a football field than being offensive tackle.
56:29And you are constantly in passing situations and you are just, these D ends are teeing off.
56:34Like it's just, it's so difficult. They're so good.
56:36They're so good. And so I think when you are able to run the ball, you know, get under center, run the ball, play action.
56:43It takes so many hits off your quarterback. And I think that is like kind of sometimes I sometimes miss that in my seeing of the league.
56:50It's like, how do we keep, you know, in Baltimore, Lamar healthy?
56:53How do we keep Herbert healthy? Because it's just like, these guys are so good.
56:58And like, it's not a shot at our backup quarterbacks.
57:00I think we got elite backup quarterbacks here. I think Trey and DJ are really good.
57:04But like, Justin's our starter. How do we keep them healthy?
57:07And I think when you put them under center and you can run the ball, you can play action.
57:13You can get a line and able to set the tone on the D line instead of always retreating.
57:18I think all those things are way easier to sell under center and also way easier to sell in 12 and 13.
57:23You know, it's like if you're in shotgun open, this little token fake like doesn't get people a lot.
57:29Like the D ends are like, you're really telling me they're going to run outside zone when they got a receiver trying to block me?
57:35Like it's not going to happen. And so I think those like are all things that are pushing this kind of usage.
57:41And I'm sure it'll go up and it'll go down.
57:44It'll go up and go down just like everything in the NFL.
57:47But I definitely think it's trending in that direction.
57:49And you can see, like you said, that like we talked about in the draft.
57:53Like, I was getting married on the draft weekends.
57:56I was not paying attention to the draft. I was marrying my wife and we were partying.
58:00So it was a good time. But I saw after there was like a huge run in this, I don't know what round it was.
58:07What round was it? It was like second and third.
58:10It was starting in the second round. I saw it.
58:12I was like, oh my goodness. I was looking at the pick list and I couldn't believe how many in a row.
58:18And I think it is like, it's just like people are kind of starting to value.
58:23And I think that is super cool as a tight end because like, you know, selfishly, like I'd like to see tight end succeed.
58:29You know, it was super cool to see that.
58:32I just think it's like chicken or the egg.
58:34I'm not sure. But it's just kind of all trending that direction.
58:37When you're going into a game and you guys play against Myles Garrett twice a year, right?
58:42That's tough. Not fun. Not fun. Well, thankfully, all the guys that still are in the AFC North are throwing a party right now.
58:48So you're having to play against him twice a year.
58:51And I'm sure, and it's interesting, it goes back to what you're saying about how much edge rushers are getting paid.
58:56Making sure that $40 million, now $50 million edge rusher doesn't get 40 chances when the other team is in the gun to rush the passer.
59:03When you're on a team like you guys were in Baltimore, like you guys likely will be with the Chargers, where you're
59:09running the ball in order to kind of control how the game feels, can you notice the impact that has on the star pass rushers you play against?
59:17Can you notice like how that changes the complexion of the game when you're willing to commit to running the ball and
59:23using play action at that sort of clip? Browns are such a tough example of that because like they are so talented.
59:29Their DC was so good at using their personnel.
59:31Like they were the biggest boom or bust defense in the NFL.
59:34Like, but they knew that. So like they're okay giving up 15-yard explosives.
59:38Because the next time it's going to be second and 10 because their linebacker got a tackle for loss.
59:43And what do you know? Myles Garrett's rushing the passer.
59:45Like they know what they're doing. Like their personnel and their scheme fit together perfectly.
59:49That's why they were so good. You know, it's so many other teams, you know, are bend don't break.
59:55They're okay with second and seven and third and four.
59:57That defense was downhill, everything. That's why like we ran a pretty cool like wham play on him and it hit for
60:03like 80 because we kind of got him going downhill and Derek hit the egg up and then bounced out.
60:08But even then, like then you're back in first and 10.
60:11And it's just, it's very difficult versus those teams to run the football and control it and play action.
60:17But to answer your question, you do try to do that, obviously.
60:20Like you're trying to get in second and five and third and two.
60:23And you're trying to put thoughts in their head.
60:26And then also like, I mean, it's Myles. Like, I'm like, we're like all competitive.
60:30Like, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to try to set the tone and take it to him.
60:35It's like every tackle does. But that guy's unbelievable, man.
60:38Like maybe that's the player of all time. Like certainly in the conversation, you know.
60:42And so you just have to throw different looks at him.
60:45You know, crack tosses, wide zone, away from him, towards him.
60:48Gap scheme, you know, boots. Just got to try to do.
60:51There's certain players like that, you know, Myles, TJ, those type of guys, Trey, that are just elite.
60:56You know, that was the thing with the AFC North was like cool.
60:59It was like, I'm not going to get much better defensive ends than the AFC North.
61:03Like, you know, some of the best in the league.
61:06And the AFC West is the same way. You know, you got Max and K-Mac, elite, elite players.
61:11So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely you try to, like you said, take it to them and set the tone with the run game.
61:17Sometimes it's just like, you know, actually your football was pretty good here.
61:21But he just ran around. Yeah. And right through you.
61:23So, like, those are always, like, it's, you know, it's the NFL.
61:27Like, you're never going to play. And, like, it's a thing you got to have thick skin.
61:31You got to have a short memory. You just got to get beat sometimes.
61:35You got to get up, go in there again.
61:37Curious. I mean, obviously, you guys played with a ton of heavy personnel in Baltimore, right?
61:42I think in three of your four seasons, you guys were dead last in 11 personnel usage.
61:46The idea of using heavy personnel is not new.
61:49Like, we've seen this over time. But as you're looking at, like, what the Rams did in their 13 personnel and maybe
61:55where the league is going a little bit compared to the types of heavy personnel you guys used in Baltimore, what are
62:00maybe some of the nuanced differences between those two approaches that you think are important for people to know as they see where the league is going?
62:08It's just bad regard. It's simple. Like, 305 with less body fat than me.
62:11It's so annoying. I mean, I remember, here's an example.
62:14We played the Chargers in 2023. Yeah, that's 23 or 24.
62:17I can't remember. I think it was 24. Yeah, I think it was 24.
62:21I think it was Jim's first year. Yeah. It was the game I broke my arm.
62:2524. And their DNs were elite. It was, you know, K-Mac, Joy Bosa, Tulipa, Dupree.
62:29And our response was to run power right at them, like, 70 times.
62:33It wasn't that many, but it felt like that.
62:35And that's just, like, a testament to how good Pat is.
62:38Like, if we're just, like, they're so good, let's run Pat at them.
62:41Because, like, most teams, if you have a fullback kicking out for elite DNs, you're going to have problems the whole game.
62:47I'm not saying he's perfect. Those guys are really good.
62:50But, like, he allows you to do things that you can't do with most fullbacks.
62:54And that's why, like, I think Alex is incredible.
62:56But, you know, they're 75 pounds apart. They're different players.
62:59And so, like, Pat, we were able to run so much more point of attack gap scheme than most teams can run because Pat's so good.
63:06Like, I'm proud of myself. Like, I think I'm really good at the trade and, you know, hitting the hip and climbing or, like, collecting.
63:13I think I'm really good at that. But, like, Pat is so good at point of attack blocks on big guys.
63:18And it just makes it different than every other team in the league.
63:22Like, you look at the Rams. You know, I actually saw some of the Rams' film last year because we played them in crossover.
63:28Their 13 is so much, like, YYY wings. Where are so much more, like, true old-style high or strong formations.
63:34You know, gap scheme, wide zone, able to do different things.
63:37And then here, you know, it's obviously with McDaniel.
63:39They do a lot more of, you know, wide zone with that stuff.
63:42But it's more in combination with tight end and fullback, which I'm excited about.
63:46Super cool. But, yeah, it's just, like, Pat. Like, he's just elite.
63:49And he allows you to do things that you can't do with our team sometimes because he's so big.
63:55And it's just, like, a big dude. But that's so interesting to me because I think that's a really important thing to point out.
64:01Like, because he was kind of an amorphous player, right?
64:04Like, he was a fullback. He's, like, 3-10 with abs.
64:06I've been lying. And my trainer said they're going to be abs for four years.
64:10Never happens. But he was the guy where, like, he played a – he was a fullback.
64:15But he would align, like, into the formation like a tight end at times.
64:19Like, he played tight end a lot in terms of, like, the actual deployment.
64:22But he's a 305-pound guy. And you mentioned the Rams.
64:25And, like, this is what I think is so interesting is that when the Rams were doing what they were in 11
64:31personnel, they were able to run 12 personnel plays out of 11 personnel.
64:34That's what made them so dangerous. They also receivers that – they have some of the most willing blockers receivers I've ever seen.
64:41100%. And so they were able to play these, like, 12 personnel looks out of 11.
64:45Well, now they're able to play 11 personnel plays out of 13 because all of those guys can run a little bit.
64:51And so I think that's a key difference is that, like, we – why tight ends aren't new.
64:56But now having all of your tight ends have at least a certain – clear a certain bar of athleticism.
65:01So now you can do a lot of the same things with multiple tight ends on the field.
65:06That feels like a necessary component to me of seeing through, like, the idealized version of what the league wants this to be.
65:12Yeah, I agree. And I think it's super cool here, too, because, you know, we also have different bodies.
65:17You know, we have five guys that have played real football in the NFL.
65:21You know, me, Chief, Rondé, Scott, and Alex. So, like, you have, you know, different size fullbacks, different size tight ends.
65:26You have big fullbacks, smallbacks, big and small. Like, you can do so many cool things, and I'm excited to see what McDaniel cooks up.
65:33But, yeah, I think that, like you said, it's, like – I understand with, like, tight – like, it's all – I mean, coaches aren't dumb.
65:40Like, they know, like, what the personnel is, what they're using.
65:43And, like you said, like, you might not want the, you know, your third or fourth tight end running, like, a choice route to win on third down.
65:51But, like, you can get a 13 personnel run all go.
65:53You can run high-low concepts, you know, flood concepts.
65:56And, like, they're big bodies. And so, like we talked about, you know, with the more and more teams trying to just
66:02keep everything in front of their safeties, having bigger bodies underneath is an easier target.
66:06Like, it's just a geometry thing. Like, they're just wider range.
66:09And I think, like, the Rams did a good job of the two because they all, like – they're all willing to do both.
66:15And I didn't – it's funny because when I watched the Rams earlier in the year, they weren't doing that as much
66:21because we played them, like – I mean, we played them, like, week six, and they were not doing that very much.
66:27That game was the first time they really dabbled in it.
66:30That game was, like, the first time they saw it.
66:33And it was actually, like, talking to people there, they kind of backdoored their way into it.
66:37It was kind of driven by them doing a self-scout and struggling in short yardage.
66:41And the reason that they wanted to start doing it is they wanted to widen the edges on run plays.
66:47And by doing it that way, they kind of stumbled into all the advantages of the game that have been the passing
66:52game, which is also just a fun part of this.
66:55Like, innovation by accident is the best – is, like, the best way to innovate.
66:59And it seems like that's kind of what happened.
67:02But that game against you guys is really the first time that they tried any sort of 13 personnel because they wanted
67:07it as a way to run the ball in certain situations.
67:10I agree. I mean, I could get on another show box about how I think YY wings and wide zone and tight
67:16zone are better than just one tight end. You're just extending the edge.
67:20Like, when you have, like, if you're going to run – you know, I know they run a lot of, like –
67:26I don't know if they call it duo or tight zone.
67:29It's the same thing, basically. But, you know, they're a vertical run scheme.
67:32Like, when you have that true – you know, it seems like the way they teach it, you know, is a gap
67:38readbacks like most teams so the ball can wind all the way back.
67:41You just end up where the edge setter is a small guy unless they're in, like, huge personnel because, you know, even
67:47if you're in a true under front, you know, you got shade 5'9", the 9 tech has two guys outside of them.
67:53And so usually they have to walk up a safety or a nickel or a back hole and you end up having
67:59an edge guy that you really don't want sitting in the edge.
68:02And it makes it for those windbacks who are there or they play too wide and downhill is there.
68:07Same thing in wide zone. Like, when you run to a two tight end set, you end up oftentimes able to stress the 9 tech more.
68:14Like, these 9 techs are really, really good in this NFL.
68:17You've got to find ways to affect them. And I think, like, that's the unique nature of the multiple tight end run
68:23zone scheme is you can affect the edges more, which at the end of the day is one of the most important
68:29parts of running the football is can you affect the edges?
68:32What is one other maybe quiet benefit of multiple tight – because I think that's a fascinating point.
68:37What are maybe one or two other quiet benefits of these multi-tight end looks that I'm not thinking enough about?
68:42Like, when you think about their biggest benefits, what are the first things that come to mind for you?
68:47I think because of the nature of the tight end position, you're forced to learn more than, like, receiver and running back.
68:53Because, you know, it's just, like, you are forced to learn almost all of the run game and almost all of the pass game.
69:00So they can sometimes be a little more amorphous of what position they can play.
69:04This isn't a shot like – the receivers and running backs in this league are really smart and they do a great job.
69:10But I think sometimes that helps a little bit because, like, we're naturally forced to learn, like, both the run and the
69:16pass game and all the run game schemes. Like, you know, I don't know how most – I don't know how every
69:22team does it, but, like, most teams, you know, in the NFL, like, the receivers have rules, like, push, push, crack, ball to them, whatever.
69:28So tight end just kind of forces you to learn a little more of it.
69:32Like, in college is when I first realized that, like, we would get the signal that the quarterbacks got and everyone else on signal.
69:39So that kind of makes sense. Tight end's got to learn a little bit more.
69:43I think that's a big one. I think it makes coaches feel comfortable.
69:46Like, there's no shot at position. It's just the way that football works.
69:50Trying to think. I think – I think obviously we talked about the money.
69:53That's a big one too. I mean, I just think a lot of it comes down to, like, the play action in
69:59the run game is just more – it feels realer out of 12 and 13 personnel.
70:04And I think that's a big part of it.
70:06You know, boots to the tight ends, away from the tight ends, you know, wide zone play action, gap scheme.
70:11You know, you can do some more things. Trying to think what else.
70:15I mean, obviously, tight ends motion at times, so the receivers.
70:18I just think that, like, it's kind of the way the league is going.
70:22Like, people try it and they either like it and they don't.
70:25And I think, like, you know, the Rams have a lot of success with it.
70:29I also, like – because it is – with the – like, the kickoff rules and stuff.
70:33Like, you start closer to the end zone most of the time.
70:37You just – it just feels like you – I don't know if this is true or not, but it feels like
70:42a higher percentage of plays are short yardage or red zone plays.
70:46Because you start from the 35 or whatever, so the 20.
70:49So, you know, you're three downs from the fringe or two downs from the fringe.
70:53And I feel like, again, like, it kind of comes back to, like, the bigger body thing.
70:57Like, it's helpful to have bigger bodies in smaller areas because there's just less space.
71:01And I think, like, the kickoff rule also affects it in ways we don't really think about.
71:06Like, you get the ball at 35, you have a one explosive.
71:09You're in field goal range. And what happens in field goal range?
71:12The defense goes more and more, just less and less.
71:15And I think that's also kind of pushing the tight ends in the league more.
71:19And just thinking about how often teams are going for it on fourth down, how the fact that now third and medium becomes a really viable rundown.
71:26And so if you're going to have one more viable rundown, the importance of having personnel that you can run out of becomes even more important.
71:33Like, I think overall, and talking to a lot of offensive coaches this spring, just this chase, like, the chasing of how
71:39few times can we play third down? And how many times can we play first and second down, even on third down?
71:45It really does seem like a really important battle right now, is the best defenses just have such a good handle on
71:51how to pick on pass protection and define passing situations.
71:53And so there's just so many different things and ways you're chasing those moments and having more tight ends is a way to do that.
72:00But the last thing I'll ask you, and this is putting you on the spot, but I'm really curious.
72:05As we think about this kind of curve of schematics, and now we have more tight ends to kind of match these
72:11bigger nickels, and that's where the league is, what do you think is the defensive response to this?
72:16Like, what do you think the next phase of this bit of evolution that we're seeing ends up looking like?
72:21I mean, I think the first thing is just more base personnel.
72:25I think the team's just more base personnel. And then also, I think it's kind of what we're already seeing is the
72:30more evolution of the big nickel instead of the nickel.
72:33You know, if you're like, if your nickel is, you know, Derwin, Kyle, Nick, Kim, and Orr, you're not really that worried
72:39in the run game because they're just really good players.
72:42So I think you will continue to see, like, it's a copy.
72:45Everything in football and sports is copycat sports. This team's doing it.
72:48Let's try it. Like, you see, like, the big nickels.
72:51Like, you know, you saw Mike Mack do it with Kyle in 23, and the defense was, you know, all-time good defense.
72:57Well, there's a lot of reasons the defense was good, but Kyle's a big part of it.
73:01And so I think that'll continue, like, the draft will continue to focus on, like, those type of guys.
73:06I also think that I think there'll be more guys, like, thinking – oh, my God, I'm blanking.
73:11Number 43 for the Vikings, long hair. Tell us, Josh Mattel.
73:14Oh, Andrew Van Ginkle. Andrew Van Ginkle. Van Ginkle.
73:16Yeah. I was thinking Anzalone, but that's just long hair.
73:19I think those guys have, like, a really unique role, too, because they can cover.
73:23And I think you might see more of, hey, this is a guy that maybe isn't 270 at the edge, and so
73:29maybe he'll give up a little bit, but we can play bigger personnel overall, and he can cover.
73:34I think you'll see that, too, because it'll – like, the same way that big nickel is a true – you know,
73:40nickel is a pass-stopping defense, allows you to play the run.
73:43A base personnel with a little bit better cover guys is a run-stopping defense that allows you to play the pass, and
73:49I think you'll kind of see that. And then also I just think you're going to see more and more of teams,
73:55like, hey, you want to play tight ends 12 or 13?
73:57All right, prove it. Go 14 plays. All right, you did it?
74:01Great job. Do it again. And that's, like, really hard.
74:03Like, Monk would always talk to us about, like, the percentage of drives that ended in touchdowns without an explosive.
74:09It's, like, crazy low. Like, the percent of times you score a touchdown on a drive when you don't have a 12-plus
74:15run or a 16-plus pass is, like, crazy low.
74:17And I think you're going to just have to just continue to see, like, defenses force execution and be like, hey, if
74:23you want to do this, okay, do it and do it all game long.
74:27And I think you're going to see, like, all right, can we do that?
74:30And then that'll lead to the next thing. I don't see it as, like, tight ends are playing more cover zero fast
74:36because I just think teams are kind of trying to make you go.
74:40One of the benefits is we've, like, come to understand them is that if teams are going to play more base, the menu shrinks.
74:46There are just fewer things that defenses can do out of base.
74:49And then is that – do you notice that?
74:52Like, when you see a team in base or when you know a team is going to play base, just anecdotally, like,
74:58how much less do you feel like you have to worry about as an offense when you see that they only have four DBs on the field?
75:05Well, it's just like you think about, okay, what are the two most complicated things a defense does?
75:10For skill players is coverages. And for interior guys, it's, like, stunts and blitzes, right?
75:14And so when you have base personnel, yeah, you'll get more stunts from the D-linemen, but that doesn't affect me quite as much.
75:20But you have less blitzes because you're kind of most of the time, if they're going to blitz, it's the five best guys rushing the passer.
75:27Like, that's just, like, just common sense. Like, why would you have someone else rush when you have five guys who are professional rushers?
75:33Because when you have, you know, 4-2 nickel, especially dime, like George, a tight end coach in Baltimore, George was great about that.
75:40He's like, all right, let's think about this common sense.
75:42Who meets together on the defense? Well, the DBs meet together.
75:45Okay, if there's four of them meeting together and they're playing base defense, they only have so many coverages.
75:50Well, now they're playing dime and there's six of them and they can communicate together.
75:54Well, they can do anything. They could do invert Tampa, you know, fire two, fire three.
75:59Everyone's all in vogue is, like, the fire with the hot zones and trying to, like, just confuse the DB coverage.
76:04Also, I know sims are big right now, you know, just, like, exchanging.
76:08But the thing is just much more flexibility when, you know, in base, everything is kind of more close to the line of scrimmage.
76:14There's less stuff you can do. Well, in nickel and dime, there's guys everywhere.
76:18So you can blitz this guy and that. So I think that it all comes down to defensive philosophy of are we
76:24trying to be, you know, this is who we are, beat it?
76:27Or are we trying to be a little more show you this, do this?
76:31And there's pros and cons of both. And I just think so much of that is personnel driven of both the defensive coordinator and the players they have.
76:38You know, if your defense, like, if you have, I mean, you look at the Eagles and, like, what was the other
76:44one in Super Bowl, 24, 25 year season? Yeah, 24 season, yeah.
76:47Like, the D-line was unreal. Like, you know, they have Jordan Davis, Jalen Carter, Milton Williams, Sweat, Graham, Nolan Smith.
76:53Like, I mean, the defense was unreal. Why would you mess with the D-line?
76:56Run forward and sack the quarterback. Like, that's like, why would you have them do stunts and stuff when you can just, they're just so good?
77:03And I think that's also, like, how you build your defense.
77:06Like, if your defense is elite cover guys, why would you have 18 different coverages?
77:10Play man and rush the passer. And so I think you see that.
77:14And that's how, like, teams build defenses is not just personnel driven, but also, sorry, not just scheme driven, but personnel driven.
77:20You saw that with Cleveland, too. Like, I got Denzel Ward, other guys.
77:23Like, go play man or rush. So I think that's, like, it's all just, like, a little bit of this, a little bit of that.
77:30It's just, like, there's so many variables. That's why I think football is so interesting.
77:34Like, someone described it to me as a human chess game once, and it's kind of interesting to look at it because it really is.
77:41Like, there's so many different personnel and people and coordinator tendencies and everything that go together, and all those things are kind of shifting to tight ends.
77:48I think it's sick because I play tight end, so.
77:51I'm very excited to see what we get out of this.
77:53Like, I mean, I think we had three teams play at least 10%, 13 personnel last year.
77:58I think we had five teams that did at least 8% of the time.
78:02I bet that doubles. Like, I bet we have at least 10 teams do it at least 10% of the time this
78:08year, and it'll just be really interesting what works out of it and what doesn't, and then what the defensive response ends up being.
78:14I think those are kind of the two big lingering questions associated with this.
78:18Anything else in this general kind of realm that we did not hit on that you find interesting?
78:23Anything you think I should know about what the tight end revolution has looked like from your vantage point?
78:28Well, I think special teams matters a lot, too.
78:30I think coordinators are comfortable with tight ends, a lot of special teams.
78:34I take a ton of pride in special teams.
78:36Like, I think that's, like, just do you want to play football?
78:39Like, the most simple question. Like, I think tight ends, like, you look at guys like, you know, Charlie Warner with the
78:45Niners had, like, led the team in tackles. Like, there's, like, if you have tight ends that go to play special teams,
78:51that is such an advantage because then you have big bodies.
78:54And sometimes if they're not, like, it can be a detriment because they're not.
78:58But, like, you look at the best special teams units have not just defensive players making tackles but offensive.
79:03And I think, like, tight ends, like, in this league, like, it's going to be on us, too.
79:08Like, hey, if we want to consent you to play 12 and 13 personnel, you have to be able to play special
79:14teams because you can't have seven tight ends and one of them is playing special teams or whatever.
79:18You know what I mean? But I think, like, I think when the rosters come out, you'll see a lot of what the teams want to do.
79:26You know, if teams keep it three tight ends, you can see where their head's at.
79:30If they're keeping four or five in a fullback, you know, you can see where their head's at for the season.
79:36And I think you'll kind of see that evolve throughout training.
79:38And also, it can change, too. Like, it sounds sweet, and you average two yards of play the first three games.
79:44I'll tell you what, they might play 11 personnel.
79:46So, it'll be interesting to see football. I mean, football is always changing.
79:50It's one of my favorite things. You know, you're never secure in your job, and you're never done getting better.
79:55So, I think it's one of the coolest parts about football.
79:58I'm kind of messed up like that. I always kind of a psycho, just never can be happy with not getting better.
80:04So, it does help me. But I think that's the thing about the NFL is you have a bunch of guys who
80:10just want to get better and just are kind of crazy about it.
80:14And I think that's one of the coolest parts about the league.
80:17It's the best part is that it's always changing.
80:19It's impossible to figure out. And very cool to get perspective from somebody who is at the center of one of those pivot points right now.
80:26Charlie, sincerely appreciate the time, man. Thank you very much for joining us.
80:30We'll have to do this again sometime. Yes, nice to meet you guys.
80:33Have a good day. All right, guys. That's all we got.
80:36Thank you so much to Charlie for his time.
80:38Thank you to Derek. Really enjoyed this conversation. We will be back on Monday with our next mailbag.
80:43For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening.
80:46We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in.
80:49Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.
80:53If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.
80:56We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.
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