0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show brought to you by the U.S.
0:03Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays, really enjoyed today's show.
0:07Our old buddy Deontay Lee from The Ringer came on and we talked about just the things that have been most surprising
0:13to us over the first month of the season.
0:16I mentioned this when Deontay is on there, but we were really going to dig into some specific stuff defensively from what
0:22the year has looked like so far. And I just wanted to zoom out a little bit like we're four weeks into the year.
0:29I feel like on this show specifically, sometimes we can really be so deep in the muck that we don't come up
0:36for air often enough and just kind of think about what the league has felt like and just what the big picture perspective is.
0:43And so that's what we wanted to do today.
0:45We picked about seven or eight things that have just been most surprising or most striking compared to expectations about what the season has looked like so far.
0:53Some of that stuff were topics that we've had before, like the Chargers, the Texans defense, but we also use those as jumping off points to larger conversations.
1:01And so this really is just kind of a bird's eye view of how the first month of the season has played
1:08out and what has felt surprising about a lot of the results that we have seen so far.
1:13So let's get to that conversation with me and Deontay right now.
1:16We are a month into the NFL season with week four being over on the eve of week five.
1:22And the original idea today that I wanted to do was talk to Deontay about something defense specific and really like dive
1:28in and chew on some of the schematic stuff that's happened in the league so far.
1:33And I was sitting there last night just kind of thinking about how strange the NFL season has felt to this point
1:39and just how hard it's been to kind of get a handle on what's real, what's not.
1:44I can't remember the exact impetus for it, but I was just trying to think about the context associated with a certain
1:51type of performance and how now it's reframed because we know more about that team than we did two weeks ago.
1:57And my takeaway in that entire headspan exercise was there's just so much chaos right now that I actually wanted to just
2:03zoom out a little bit, take a breath and talk about some of the stuff that has really jumped out to us
2:09in either a surprising or striking way over the first month of the season.
2:13And so that's what we're going to do today.
2:16Rather than dig in even deeper, I wanted to actually come back and see if we could get some perspective on this whole thing.
2:23Look, I have a deep appreciation for this. My Slack messages every week have been like, oh, my God, all these teams
2:29are scoring in week one without needing explosive passes.
2:32Is that the new meta of the league? A week later, that's right back out of the door.
2:37It's actually not like that at all. You know, teams that I was ready to dismiss after a couple weeks start getting hot.
2:44And, you know, the opposite is happening in other spaces.
2:47So I think that zooming out and being able to take a look, honestly, this kind of gives me a chance to
2:53breathe for a second and kind of let go of the wheel a little bit.
2:57You know, I don't have to white knuckle this thing.
3:00We got 17, 18 weeks of this before we get to the playoffs.
3:04That's exactly why I wanted to spend the quarter mark of the season feels a good time to do this while also acknowledging.
3:11And I want that to just be the first beat we hit here.
3:14I still don't think we know jack shit. But truly, I do not think we know anything that's real and lasting.
3:21I think there are some things that have really jumped out, and that's what I want to dig into.
3:26But there are no sweeping proclamations to be made.
3:29Somebody, angry Jaguars fans, which I can understand why they are, were retweeting some of the conversations that we were having about
3:35Trevor Lawrence at me a month into last season.
3:38We were just like, oh, man, Trevor Lawrence struggling.
3:40Is this just who he is? Turns out, no.
3:43So a month in, it's always best to pump the brakes a little bit.
3:47But I do think there's plenty of interesting stuff to chew on.
3:50I remember what it was. I was trying to think about just the marks of the Panthers season so far.
3:56And Bryce Young has a monster day against the Falcons in week two.
4:00And it's kind of like, well, it's the Falcons defense.
4:03And then we see what the Falcons defense has done the last couple weeks.
4:07And it's like, oh, I guess that was even more impressive than we even knew in the moment.
4:12And so that's what the first month is. It's just like a constant exercise in trying to find the right and real context around everything.
4:19And so I think we're going to do a little bit more of that today.
4:24I would think so. And it's funny, right, just how often it's a moving target.
4:28Because I would say like a few seasons ago, I got a month in and I was like, actually, I think I
4:34have a pretty good handle on who doesn't matter in this league.
4:38And I remember sitting and talking to some of my coworkers.
4:41They're like, you feel that strongly going into October?
4:44And I was like, yeah, you can just look at some of these teams, some of the underlying metrics, you know, the injuries and all that.
4:51You know, you can kind of cast aside. I think that this year is probably like the absolute inverse of that.
4:57Like 2024, I felt like we were pretty clear after about a month about who was serious and who wasn't.
5:03This year, I would not, I would never, you know, venture to make that same type of proclamation.
5:08So we're going to make about seven or eight proclamations today just about the things that have been surprising to us.
5:14The most surprising, again, surprising slash striking things about the league so far.
5:18And talking about things that are over, that's my first one.
5:21This era of the Philadelphia Eagles is just over now.
5:24And I don't mean that the Juergens trade signals they're waving a white flag.
5:28I think it's more complicated than that. And we'll dig into the specifics of it.
5:32But when you think about the discussion about the Eagles coming into the season and why they could be a team that
5:39was a contender, a relevant team to the end of the year, it was a lot of, well, we've seen this group do it before.
5:46This group has constructed. They won the Super Bowl two years ago.
5:50Can this group do it again? And then you look at this team now with Lane Johnson gone, which we can dig
5:56into, with the Juergens trade happening, with the defense just being a complete youth movement.
6:00And there just aren't a lot of guys around that we recognize anymore.
6:04And with the offensive line going from the identity of this team, everything about the Philadelphia Eagles offensively was built upon their
6:10offensive line for the last decade, seemingly. And now you're looking at this group and we got Willie Lampkin and Drew Kendall and Markel Bell.
6:18And I think just in so many ways, it really does feel like over the last 48 hours or so, we have
6:24shut the door on an entire era of Philadelphia Eagles football.
6:27And it just seems like it happened very quickly.
6:30Absolutely. And I want to kind of address the last piece of what you said first.
6:34I can't remember the last time I looked at an Eagles depth chart and looked at their backups and was like, oh,
6:41my God, if somebody gets hurt, this is really, really bad.
6:44I'm very I'm much more used to looking at the Eagles depth chart and be like, geez, you guys might have two NFL starters sitting behind all pros.
6:52Right. Like it is just it could not be more opposite from where we were in 2024, in 2022, when this team
6:58was gangbusters offensively and could do whatever they wanted, even if there were, you know, quibbles about what they were doing schematically.
7:05Right. And I think that the conjunction, the conjunction of Lane Johnson's retirement, plus the Cam Juergens trade was a reminder for
7:11me that teams enter seasons with multiple things being true at the same time.
7:15And you're really just waiting to see which truth we land on.
7:19Right. Based off of the results of the season.
7:21And like you were saying, I think the optimistic view is, hey, you've got a quarterback that you've been to championships with and won a championship with.
7:29You've got a head coach who has been there and done it, whatever your, you know, quibbles might be with his approach
7:35to the game, game management, you know, questions about what his leadership style may be.
7:40You've seen them do it before. You have big fans.
7:43You're calling this defense. You have all of this bought in goodwill.
7:46And then after those two moves happened, I'm sitting yesterday talking with, you know, our old buddies, Bo Wolf, you know, and
7:53I'm like, geez, actually, maybe I should have been asking the question that if he had to beg Lane Johnson to come
7:59back and he took a hiatus in training camp and he had to beg, you know, Landon Dickerson to give this another shot.
8:06And him and Cam Juergens had to leave the country to go get treatments done on their lower body.
8:11So that way they could be OK to start the season.
8:14Maybe I didn't spend enough time thinking about what the outcome is, if that tends to be more of the truth of
8:21this team than what I thought more optimistically. And it's just a fascinating place to be for this team.
8:26And like you said, I'm looking at them now and you look at the schedule and God, there is a chance that
8:32even their A game might not be good enough for them to leave up to the Eagle standard that we got really
8:39comfortable with over the last half decade. And I don't even know what that A game looks like with the current state
8:45of the offense and the fact that the defense, we expected the defense to come in and be one of those just
8:52game changing units consistently where they are controlling the way that games are played as the offense kind of figures itself out over the course of the year.
9:00And that just hasn't happened. It hasn't happened with a couple of the defenses we expected that from and we'll talk about that.
9:06And so you look at the Eagles right now and if the defense is going to be somewhere around a middle of
9:13the pack unit and the offense is going to be in the current state that it's in, we might be looking at
9:19another one of those bottoming out Eagle seasons, which they have.
9:22Right. Even in this run of really sustained success, they aren't really afraid to have these massive dip seasons because it's actually
9:29a good thing to have them every once in a while when you have job security.
9:33And I'm talking about the front office, not the coaching staff, when you have that job security, because it allows you to
9:40have access to players like Devante Smith and kind of reload with those sorts of guys every once in a while.
9:46But I think we're headed more toward one of those Eagle seasons than a season where they're trying to squeeze every last
9:52drop out of the roster like the way they have over the last few years.
9:56Understandably so. As we're, you know, I know that the conceit of the show is what takeaways we have now.
10:02And I think so much of it is actually just like a reminder of certain tin pulls, certain things that are just true about the NFL in general.
10:10And that's that this league is built on roster attrition.
10:13The fact that you don't just get to be excellent in perpetuity, that you don't just get to keep your continuity and
10:20all the guys will be great and you'll stick around and there's going to be some linear, you know, this linear growth year over year.
10:27And that brain drain is not going to affect you.
10:30It is extremely rare that that is the case for any franchise, even the best of them.
10:35And Philadelphia is not exempt. And like you were saying, all the things we believed about Philadelphia is front four.
10:40You look now, they've got the lowest quarterback hit rate in the league through four weeks.
10:45You think that's the disease on defense? Like you think that's the issue that's plaguing them right now?
10:50That would make the most sense. That's my takeaway as well.
10:53I think that's the easiest thing. That's the easiest thing to point to that A is causing them problems and B that
11:00you can sell yourself on regression back to the mean positively for this defense, right?
11:04That they've built this entire thing on being able to get home with four.
11:08You've got good enough players to get home with four.
11:11You've got to believe that over the course of a 17-game season that more contact on the quarterback will start happening and
11:17you're not going to have to blitz. And then there's also that baked in trust that your defensive play caller, who's one
11:24of the greatest that we've seen in the NFL history, will figure out ways to manufacture pressure if that four-man rush is not enough.
11:31I think that's your finger-crossed case if you're an Eagles fan to say, hey, even if this offense actually is bottoms up,
11:37we might still be able to squeak a 9-8, 10-7 season where we can kind of backdoor our way into the playoffs
11:43and get ourselves a one-game sample where maybe this defense can win us a game or two.
11:48That's, I think, what you're leaning on right now more than anything.
11:52You've got to tell yourself a story to get there, though.
11:55I mean, that feels like a tough needle to thread.
11:58I'm not necessarily thinking I'd be bad on that.
12:01Yeah, you're selling yourself on that, but that ain't what you're seeing on tape.
12:05It's not there right now. When I say I don't think they're waving the white flag, I think that some people are
12:11looking at the Juergens trade and being like, oh, man, fire sale time.
12:15I don't think so. Like, the idea that you'd be able to get some of the key pieces from this team based
12:21on one move for Kevin Juergens to me is misguided.
12:24On defense, that's going to be the foundation of the team moving forward.
12:28Like, those guys are going to be what they build this thing on.
12:31The Juergens trade to me feels like a we know we're not really going anywhere.
12:36This is a guy who doesn't have a position right now because he was really struggling at guard.
12:41His body has failed him before. We have long-term concerns about his health to get offered a second-round pick for that player
12:47in this moment, given the current state of your offense and the current state of your season.
12:52You can't really say no to that. But on a multi-year level, you're still trying to keep the vast majority of this roster together.
12:59The question becomes, how are you going to rebuild this offensive line in time to make the rest of the roster construction matter?
13:06Because now you're in a spot where you did it with the defensive secondary two years ago.
13:11You were able to kind of refuel the plane in midair to get Q and Cooper Dejean in the same offseason, and
13:17it helped you win the Super Bowl. Can you do that with the offensive line in one single year before you get
13:24to a 20-28 offseason where now everything is on the table?
13:27You got two firsts. You got two second. You got some financial decisions to make about the quarterback.
13:32Again, I think the defense, they'll play Mitchell. They'll play Dejean.
13:35They already paid the defensive tackles. That is all going to be there.
13:39But the offense, it feels like we could be dealing with an entirely different group over the next two years.
13:45And I'm just not sure how the offensive line gets back to a place where you're a championship-caliber team in the next
13:5112 months, given the current state of the offensive line.
13:54That's going to be the real challenge. I mean, you would just struggle to find precedent where that happens, right?
14:00Like, you can find rookie production that can get you back to a championship level at a lot of positions.
14:06There's just not a ton of precedent. Right? The Bears did it in a year.
14:10Even something like what the Browns did this offseason, you can do it in a single year.
14:15But even that requires a level of aggressiveness where you're trying to kind of maximize the moment where if you're Howie Roseman,
14:21do you care about maximizing the moment for 20-27?
14:24I don't really know. I was going to say.
14:26Yeah, I don't think he's not in a Ryan Pohl's position where, hey, I've got to bring in Jonah Jackson off all
14:33these injuries and just bank on the fact that we can get him healthy with his old coach.
14:38I can't, you know, you're not making a decision to bring in a mid-30s Joe Tooney and crossing your fingers and hoping,
14:44hey, what we saw over the postseason is actually not who he is.
14:48And if he gets an offseason to kind of flush his legs a little bit, we'll actually get back to him playing
14:54at his position and at a level that we expect him to be at.
14:59If you're Philadelphia, you don't want to live in that world, right?
15:02This franchise kind of prides itself on the fact that they never have to make those types of decisions under duress and
15:08that they kind of get to take advantage of other teams who are making those types of decisions to be able to extract that draft capital.
15:16And if you're Howie Roseman, that's exactly how you feel after trading Cam Juergens.
15:20Would you like to have kept your former, you know, high-level center around?
15:24Yes, but in this moment where he's struggling, where you're kind of remaking the offense anyways, you might not have gotten potentially
15:30another top 50, top 60 pick, you know, for a guy like this, given where his body is at and given what
15:36the trajectory of his career looks like at any other point in time from here on to the end of his contract.
15:43So it makes sense to make that move. I think that you also pointed out the right perspective in that Howie Roseman has sat at a podium already.
15:51And I would say people who talk to Howie Roseman and know this brain trust have kind of been signaling this since the A.J.
15:58Brown trade request started bubbling up last year, that everybody in this franchise is kind of aware of the fact that the expensive offense days have to end.
16:06Because again, the league doesn't work like that. You don't get to keep all your good players in perpetuity.
16:11They were going to have to, you know, kind of pivot and start to bring in new bodies.
16:17And I think, you know, in talking with some of my buddies, you know, around the media, I think that my biggest
16:23question is, was if this year is about trying to figure out whether or not Jalen Hurts was going to get a
16:29second extension, and whether or not he's going to be the long term answer, and that you're going to use those draft
16:36picks elsewhere to build around him or not. But I think the bigger question now, if you're an Eagles fan and if
16:42you're somebody covering the Eagles is trying to suss out whether or not that was an evaluation that's on the table.
16:48And if a move like this is maybe an implied kind of answer that they're thinking about what the future looks like at the quarterback position and beyond.
16:56Well, that was what I was going to say.
16:59Maybe it was an evaluation that was in progress.
17:01And a month into the season, it would feel like a very quick hook or a quick closing of that evaluation.
17:08But maybe after a combination of last season and the last month and just how he's taken to this, maybe that was
17:14enough, which it's going to be fascinating. Like how they rebuild the offense specifically over the next two years and whether that
17:20includes moving on from the quarterback and trying to find another one.
17:24And they now have the ammo in a draft two years from now to potentially seek that out is really interesting.
17:30On the Ravens side of this, what do you think about the Ravens being that aggressive to go get Cam Juergens in this moment?
17:37Is it a move that I would like to have made?
17:40No. Right. But this speaks to what you have to do when you're under duress, right, as a GM.
17:45And you've got multiple centers on IR. You're going to probably be playing your backup quarterback for a couple of weeks just
17:52based off of some of the hinting and reporting around Lamar Jackson's ankle sprain.
17:56And you've got a new offense. And I'm pretty sure this is probably Declan Doyle and Jesse Minter saying, hey, I trust
18:02you, DaCosta, but we don't have to make my life this hard.
18:06OK, if you can go get me somebody to make life a little bit easier, I would love to have a player
18:12that I can at least feel certain about. And I think that it's probably a worthwhile bet for Baltimore, because if he's great, he's now cost controlled.
18:20Right. He's cost controlled as an interior lineman, as your center.
18:23You feel a lot better about trying to spin things forward around this offense, knowing that there were so many questions about
18:29the center position to start this year for you guys.
18:32Anyways, that will be a great question answered for them.
18:35And if his body is banged up, you can say, hey, man, we we took a big swing.
18:40It didn't work out. We're actually not hampering our long term future too badly because it's not like they'd have to eat
18:47a bunch of cap casualties to be able to move on from them.
18:51If that ended up being the case after this year or maybe next season.
18:55So I think that you can sell yourself on the fact that it's high upside for Baltimore.
19:00It is just a major risk on draft capital.
19:02Just given what we've seen on the field from Cam Juergens this year that I don't know if I will be the most comfortable making.
19:09It's an overpay, clearly. But I can understand the mindset that leads to it in this moment on a couple different fronts.
19:16One, you've seen what this offense looks like over the first month of the season.
19:20And if I were Eric DaCosta or if I were Jesse Minter and I'm looking at the potency we have felt from
19:26the offense, I can understand trying to squeeze onto that thing with both hands and not let go.
19:32And that's what this feels like. And I also think it speaks to a larger point that I want to dig into
19:38a little bit later on the show. How many teams around the league right now do you think are looking at the
19:44current state of the league and saying, why not us?
19:47You'd have to. I mean, if you're in if you feel like you're a top 20 team in the NFL right now,
19:54you've got to be thinking we if there's a way for us to put to lean in on 2026, we need to
20:00probably start exercising as many options as we can to lean in.
20:03And I think the Ravens, if you're looking at your offense and you know that Lamar is going to be back in
20:10a couple of weeks and that center thing is just staring you in the face.
20:14And it's not even just the center thing by making the trade for Cam Juergens and moving.
20:19Oh, you want it back to guard. You get better at two protecting him.
20:23Yes. And you get better at two positions at the same time.
20:27And you give yourself a chance to unlock this offense that I personally and I think a lot of people justifiably are really, really excited about.
20:34And so if if it all it took was a round and a half overpay to go get Cam Juergens in order
20:41to potentially give yourself that in the long term, I can understand landing there.
20:45If you're to costume, man, like, yeah, that it might look really ugly in a couple of years.
20:50It's based on his production and us handing a pick to the Eagles.
20:54But the idea of not letting this thing slip through our fingers because of what we could potentially accomplish.
20:59I understand that. Like, I think sometimes teams overstate that stuff when they're making moves like this.
21:04And I also think that's an important part of it.
21:07Like, we did a segment on the athletic show, which I do for the company with Amazon.
21:12And we were talking today about in-season trades and some the history of in-season trades and just how checkered they are because
21:18a lot of them don't work out. You know, for every version of the Von Miller, Odell Beckham thing, we have 10 Amari Cooper trades.
21:25But those, I think you're talking yourself into the idea of this is going to put us over the top.
21:31We are this thing away from competing. I don't I don't see the Juergens move as that.
21:36I see it as protecting yourself. I see it as a backstop choice.
21:40And and that mindset to me makes it a little bit easier to justify even if you know you're overpaying compared to one of those.
21:47Well, if we just get another receiver in here, this thing is off to the races.
21:52That's speculative. This you have proof of concept for how good the offense can be if you're getting an acceptable level of offensive line play overall.
21:59I mean, and there's just so much evidence in Baltimore specifically to support the fact that when the offensive line starts falling
22:06to pieces, it can very much unravel what would have otherwise been excellent offensive play.
22:10We have talked about the Ravens offense taking steps backwards because they're playing guys out of positions or you're leaning on guys
22:16that you wouldn't have wanted to to open the season.
22:19And if I'm yeah, if I'm Eric Costa, I didn't bring John Simpson in to have to ask him to be a starter this early in the year.
22:27That's my break glass option. I just like having him around because I know the guy right like that.
22:33That's much more of what you're thinking. You don't want to ask your rookie first round pick to say, hey, you're going
22:39to be snapping the ball now to a guy that you you're doing a job that we didn't draft you for to begin with.
22:46And now you're snapping the ball to a guy that you have not really gotten any reps with.
22:51Oh, and we really need to win as many games as possible because it looks like the AFC is going to be
22:58as competitive as it's ever been this year. I think like you said, you want to protect yourself.
23:03You want to insulate yourself. As a GM, I'm not going to feel good with my 2028 second round pick saying, hey,
23:09this was worth maybe costing myself an opportunity to compete at the highest level.
23:13When you have Lamar playing the way that he has over the first month, you have to do everything you can to
23:20get the most out of those seasons. And in 2024, when he was playing at this level, the defense wasn't very good.
23:26And now I think you have you should have enough confidence and optimism about the defense where we got to do everything
23:32we can to make sure we're capturing this season when Lamar is playing at this level, because when he is, I think you're capable of pretty much anything.
23:41All right, let's get to your first one here.
23:43The first thing you wanted to talk about that has been surprising or particularly notable to you four weeks into the season is what?
23:50I don't want to do too long of a preamble, but I think that you'll understand where I was coming from going
23:56into the season with Jacksonville, because I think that you guys had a few conversations about the Jaguars preseason as well.
24:03Right. What's real coming out of their hot streak to in last regular season.
24:07Right. My biggest thing is all of the things that would make you feel the best about the Jags.
24:12If you were a Jags fan over the last two months of last year in the first month of this year is
24:18all the stuff that we say does not stick year over year.
24:22Great turnover luck, explosive runs, converting third and longs in the passing game.
24:26Those are not things that are supposed to carry over from one season to the next, especially when you kind of stand pat with your roster.
24:33It's not like there was any major influx of new talent.
24:36They didn't do a bunch at the top of the draft.
24:40In fact, they got you know, they were very heavily criticized for what they did do in the draft with bringing in,
24:46you know, Nate Berkshire and just like their approach to draft and tight ends as well.
24:51In general, knowing where their offensive line has been kind of weak.
24:54So I 100 percent expected them with a pretty difficult opening season open to the season that, hey, Trevor Lawrence is going to get hit more often.
25:02Some of the turnover luck might go the wrong way.
25:05I don't think that they're going to be one in three coming out of this stretch, but maybe there are two and
25:11two and we feel like, OK, they've kind of come back to earth.
25:15And no, they're still gangbusters. Every time they touch the red zone, you get the best red zone play calls and Trevor
25:21Lawrence is ripping throws in between defenders. They're still explosive in the run game.
25:25I do think that you've seen a little bit more contact on Trevor Lawrence now than you did last, you know, to end last season.
25:33And I do worry a little bit about what that's going to look like over the course of the season if he
25:39keeps hitting the ground as often as we've seen over the last couple of weeks.
25:43But for the most part, this defense is performing the exact same way it did in November and December last year.
25:49And we're still looking at the same Jags team that looks like a buzzsaw, you know, in the AFC.
25:55I can't remember a situation. I was trying to think of one as you were talking and just like trying to land on, OK, is there an example?
26:03And the reason I'm saying this is that one of the hesitations with the Jags and I want to be clear, like
26:09I was excited about the Jags coming into the season.
26:12We have the 10 teams at the table. The first two teams off would have been the Niners and the Jags, and they are now on there.
26:20And so I was very open to the idea that the Jags could be a very good team this year.
26:26I just think I was in a mode where I want to see it again.
26:30And part of the reason for that, can you remember an example where we had one of these play calling offensive head
26:36coaches that was just clearly one of those dudes almost immediately when he got the job and the way that Liam Cohen has been.
26:43But that guy was paired with a first time, first year defensive coordinator that we'd never seen do it, was very, very
26:50good, but doesn't have like an established track record of success because that was part of it.
26:55Like, Cole, I'm willing to believe, but like we had one year of Campanile.
26:59Let's see if just this whole group can do it again.
27:02And they clearly have shown an ability to do that because with the other guys, like McVay obviously had the first season
27:08that he did with the Rams, but Wade Phillips was their defensive coordinator.
27:12Like we'd seen that Shanahan comes in. The 17 season is kind of a wash for the Niners.
27:17And so that didn't happen immediately. I just think that the dynamics at play were unique enough and we had just a
27:24lack of long-term built-in equity with the main principal pieces that I really was just in a, hey, what does round two look like?
27:31And they have come out and been like, round two is going to be better than round one.
27:36You watch us. And that's exactly what this has been.
27:39Exactly. And again, like I just keep leading back on, it's not like they brought in some all pro guy.
27:44They weren't the team that went out and traded for Jalen Waddle, right?
27:48Like they're not the team that went out and traded for AJ Brown.
27:52They didn't do any of that. They didn't spend two firsts to go get Sauce Gardner to add to their DB role.
27:58I'll push back on that a little bit. Do you know who the all pro player they traded for is?
28:04Travis Hunter. Travis Hunter, right. Yes. They traded for a guy who's going to be an all pro corner this year, potentially.
28:11Exactly. He's a guy who was fresh off of a bottoming out, right?
28:14Like I came out of the 2024 season like, you know what?
28:18If it never happens for Trevor Lawrence, at least I can say I believed.
28:22All right. Equally guilty. I gave it the good old college try.
28:25I don't have to go down with this ship any further.
28:28It's okay. We gave it a shot. And he turns right back around and you see a rhythm in his game that
28:35I would say never has existed for him in the pros.
28:38It's a great word. Over the last like three months.
28:41The confidence, putting his back foot in the ground, driving the ball in between, you know, these closing passing windows to wide
28:47receivers that I didn't necessarily look at as being like, oh, these are great ball winners.
28:52These are great contested catch guys. These are going to be separators.
28:55These are guys that you can push the ball downfield with.
28:59I think the scheme of the offense, the play of Trevor Lawrence, and then I just think the rhythm that they're in.
29:05You look at a guy like Parker Washington as like the ultimate manifestation of all of the work that they have done
29:11to build this offense to be as good as it is.
29:14And I would say defensively, you're starting to see that with Travis Hunter.
29:18We saw this last year with Devin Lloyd at linebacker.
29:21You're seeing it with Josh Heinz Allen right now as a pass rusher.
29:25Like you just see these little manifestations of like all the work they're doing is getting the maximal results right now.
29:31They have the ingredients of what a contending team feels like on several different fronts.
29:35And the reason that the specific reason I say that in this moment is that they've shown an ability to kind of
29:42do different versions of things over the first month of the season.
29:45Like this is a really maybe random player to point out when making this point, but stick with me for a second.
29:52Brenton Strange being like the fifth or sixth most important player on your offense is how you win Super Bowls.
29:57Yes. Yes. With the way that he's been playing, how important he would, how well he plays within the role that they ask him to fill in.
30:05Exactly right. And he may not be a featured piece of what you're doing week in and week out.
30:11But if there's a moment where you're playing against the Bengals team who just seems to lose every single tight end that
30:17they play week over week, you'd be like, all right, this is going to be the featured guy in our passing game this week.
30:24And we can do that. He's worth featuring in these specific moments.
30:27The offense has shown an ability to do that.
30:30It's multifaceted. And then on defense, you've seen flexibility and personnel on the back end.
30:34That's given them answers to different problems. The idea that, all right, well, we don't really know.
30:39Is Travis a full-time outside corner? Do we want to do that?
30:43And you're kind of playing around with him and Jarrion Jones and Montero Brown, all in combination with one another.
30:49And you're trying on all these different combos of players.
30:51And like, does this, is this the way that we should play?
30:55Even the ability to do that is a luxury that teams without that much depth and depth and flexibility don't even get to explore.
31:02And I think that to me is what really good, but also resilient contender worthy teams feel like where you can have
31:08the options, the mindset, and the flexibility to kind of vacillate between these different versions of yourself and figure out what is
31:15best for that moment when what is best for the long run.
31:18And I think to me, in combination with being just exceptionally well coached on both sides of the ball, that's what this version of the Jags feels like.
31:26Absolutely. You know, and you opened up this conversation with like, just how often do we see things happen this way?
31:32I think that most times when it goes this way, it's because the team takes on such an extreme manifestation of a
31:39certain personality in terms of how they play, right?
31:41You think of Miami when Mike McDaniel gets there.
31:44You think of Sean McVay early in Los Angeles.
31:46You think of all those teams. When I watch Jacksonville, there's really nothing extreme about what they do, right?
31:52Like they don't blitz more than any other team.
31:54They're not necessarily getting into cupboard shells that nobody else is playing.
31:58And offensively, it's not like they're rolling out some type of personnel grouping that is, you know, melting the minds across the league.
32:05Sometimes I just watch them and I'm like, God, this feels like the best team in football at squeezing 16 yards out
32:11of a pass play when they want to get it.
32:14Like if they need to go get 18 yards in the seam, I don't know if there's a better team right now
32:20at designing a way to get Parker Washington exactly 18 to 20 yards across the middle of the field or Jacoby Myers
32:27exactly 14 yards when they need it. They are just extremely precise.
32:30Like you said, they can take on different personalities within a game.
32:34I think that just speaks to the feel that Liam Cohen has as a head coach and play caller.
32:39And I think the same thing you would have to say since Anthony Campanile, like their understanding of what their personnel is
32:45and how to get the most out of them is way beyond even the most aspirational case for them coming into these jobs last year.
32:53And I think that that they're continuing to build on that without needing these ultra dynamic pieces, you know, young guys outside
32:59of like a Travis Hunter, you know, that are just eye popping every time you watch them on the field.
33:05It speaks to coaching execution and just how well they game plan on a weekly basis.
33:09I don't know if there's really anybody maybe outside of like Kyle Shanahan right now who is doing it better on the offensive side of the ball.
33:17Oh, I'd have a tiny bit of pushback after the way the last couple of weeks have gone over here with the back of quarterbacks.
33:24That's fair. That's fair. I think Liam Cohen has shown that he is a member of the inner circle.
33:30That is what we have, what he has done over the first month.
33:34It's funny you say that about the identity. It's the last point and a half I want to make about this before we move on.
33:41The identity of the offense and the defense is just really well constructed units on both sides of the ball that are
33:47an expression of the best modern ideas on both sides.
33:50Like the defense is just a combination of a lot of things that are working for different trees built into one thing
33:57where you're doing a little bit of all of it, but you're doing all of it well, which is really difficult to juggle.
34:03And Campanile has shown an incredible ability to do that.
34:06And on offense, it's just like, this is just the good shit right now.
34:10We're just doing the good shit right now in a way that is very well constructed.
34:15And so that's not really a specific schematic identity.
34:17It's just good ball. That's what the Jags feel like.
34:20And then the last part, I think in terms of how do you do this year over year?
34:26How do you feel like a different version of yourself?
34:28You need guys to rise and fall. We had mentioned Travis Hunter as a joke.
34:33Look, Anton Harrison feels like the player like that for them this year.
34:37Yes. And then when you stumble into guys in your rookie class, that's almost always an ingredient.
34:41Emmanuel Pregman has been such a win for them.
34:44That's it. Huge win. Think about the teams that have won Super Bowls over the last couple of years.
34:50Think about the 2025 Seahawks. Think about the 2024 Eagles.
34:52Cooper DeGene, Quinjon Mitchell, Nicky Manwari, Gray Zabel. Like you have to get a couple of these guys.
34:58And Travis Hunter almost feels like a rookie in that way just because he is a new piece of this.
35:03So let's just say Travis Hunter is this year's first round pick.
35:07And then you get Pregnant and then everything else that's happening around it, you start to feel the ingredients that typically lead
35:13to this sort of team getting all mixed together in Jacksonville.
35:16And it's an incredibly exciting place to be. All right.
35:19Let's take our first quick break and then come back and hit a few more of these things that we found surprising.
35:26We don't have to spend a ton of time on this next one because I did kind of allude to it.
35:32But what has surprised me or been striking to me is just how wide open this whole thing feels.
35:37Like it really is extremely exciting. And I think last year it felt wide open in part because a lot of the
35:44blue bloods with elite quarterbacks fell off. And this year that hasn't happened, right?
35:48A lot of the best quarterbacks in the league and the MVP caliber quarterbacks, those offenses and teams have looked good so far.
35:54But all of those teams also feel flawed enough.
35:57And everyone else, there are other teams at the top that feel complete enough, like the Jags team that we just talked
36:03about, where now the teams with those MVP quarterbacks and everyone else is just kind of smashed into this top 10 to 12 that is just incredibly compelling.
36:11Like right now, the top eight teams in DVOA, total team DVOA, are the Niners, Jags, Chiefs, Bills, Ravens, Seahawks, Rams, and Chicago Bears.
36:18Let's take the top seven of those teams and have a conversation.
36:22Those are the teams I would have expected to be there.
36:25Like again, I think the idea that the Jags and Niners are there isn't necessarily surprising.
36:30But you look at that top seven and like any of those top seven teams can tell themselves very legitimately, we think
36:36we can win the Super Bowl this year. And even other teams, like I think the way the Cowboys offense is playing,
36:42like it just feels like so many, at least 10, maybe even a dozen teams, by the time we get to midseason,
36:49if they continue in this form or even a slightly better version of it as we get a little bit more time
36:55on task, are going to be able to tell themselves, we legitimately think we can be the best team in the league
37:02or the most dangerous team in the league by the time the season is over.
37:06And it's not because other teams have fallen off.
37:08It's because we have enough to get ourselves there.
37:11And it's an awesome place to be. I mean, it just makes the entire, it makes the prospect of the rest of the season unbelievably intriguing.
37:19And so, but it is surprising. It's still just one of those things where it still feels new that we have this
37:25many teams that we feel good about to that degree.
37:28But right now, I think it'd be hard to argue against it.
37:31100%. I mean, you know, in doing the power rankings for the ringer, you know, I just put up one from the first quarter of the season.
37:39And in trying to stack the teams, there were so many times where I was like, I actually need to redo my one through 32.
37:46Like, I'm not resetting my entire, all the copy on this, but I actually need to ask myself, do I think that
37:53this team that's ranked ahead of them can beat this team?
37:56And then, and now I'm just down this rabbit hole of, well, stylistically, this team could do this and it will be a problem for them.
38:03I can 100% see. Way too many times if you're thinking about it that way.
38:08100%. 100%, you know, and this is not, a lot of times I feel like people come out of like the first
38:14month of the season and they're like, oh, you know, X amount of teams can legitimately look at themselves as a playoff team or contender.
38:21And it almost feels dishonest, right? Cause you're, you're trying to extract so many small slivers of information to make you believe in one team or the other.
38:29I genuinely went through like the top 20 to 22.
38:32And even though very flawed teams, you look at teams like the Packers, you think about teams like Houston, you think about
38:39teams like the Chargers who, you know, have been about as bad as you can be for a team that was expected to be a contender.
38:46And I still feel like, I think under the right circumstances, maybe they're not Superbowl contenders, but think what 100% ruin another
38:53contender season under the right circumstances, right? Like, and that is a rarity in there's, that is a rarity for any season.
38:59I would say, especially in one, like you said, where there are an elite class of quarterbacks that are around and they're not, they're not hurt.
39:07Their teams are not falling apart. We still are looking at teams that may not have access to that type of top
39:13tier play at the quarterback position and looking at them and saying, we still have to take them seriously.
39:18I really enjoy a season that can give that to us this early in it.
39:23And we're not just discarding teams. And now we're spending the next three months talking about the same, you know, half dozen,
39:29you know, squads all the rest of the way through.
39:32I think there are going to be plenty of teams that force themselves into that conversation.
39:37Like teams, like we didn't mention the Bengals, like the Bengals defense is improved enough for they'll probably be relevant.
39:42And then I joked about the Bears, but I think that Bears are actually a good example of this.
39:48If you watch what that team is doing offensively, and you imagine what it's going to look like potentially with Caleb Williams back.
39:55And I know there's been a little bit of like, oh man, the backup quarterbacks look great.
39:59What does that mean about Caleb Williams? The only time we saw him not against Brian Flores in a rainstorm this season, the team scored 59 points.
40:07So if you're the Bears or if you're a Bears fan, and you look at the way the defense has been playing,
40:14and who knows where it settles, but it's been better than you expected.
40:17And you look at the ceiling on offense. I don't think it's unreasonable for you to be one of those teams and
40:24fan bases that's like, well, why can't we do this?
40:27Like, are we any more flawed than some of these other teams are?
40:30Because the teams that were supposed to be super teams, the Rams are still very good, but have their issues.
40:36The Bills offense looked unbeatable for two weeks. It's taken a fallback down to earth over the last two weeks, and their
40:43defense has struggled in the first month of a new coordinator.
40:46We talked about Baltimore. The Ravens are a little bit banged up.
40:49I still think right now they might feel like the most dangerous team overall at full strength, but they're not a perfect team by any stretch.
40:57The Chiefs have an argument as to be the best team in the league so far, but I still have concerns about
41:03their pass catching options and just what that team looks like in a world where they can't lean on the run to the degree that they have.
41:11Like, everybody has issues. The Niners are number one in DVOA.
41:14They've been top five on offense and defense. They look incredible, but what is that defense in the long run?
41:20Like, how much faith do we have in that?
41:23And so the teams that have looked really, really good, I still think have enough potential issues where if you're one of
41:29those teams on the fringes of the top 10, I don't think it's crazy for you to start talking yourself into the
41:35idea that maybe we could kind of force our way into the conversation over the course of this year.
41:41Absolutely. All right, what's your next one here? Your next thing that has jumped out to you so far over the first month of the season?
41:48So I kind of cheated and joined two together, and I think a lot of it is just because I expect knowing
41:55how we podcast and we'll probably end up roping a bunch of different coaches into this topic.
42:00But coming out of the Sunday night game where I am watching the Panthers just absolutely maul Detroit's defense, right?
42:05And it's not just that game because you can obviously look at that in a one-game sample and, hey, Detroit's defense is
42:12just kind of lost right now in the mix of their identity versus the players they do and don't have available.
42:18I think it's fair to critique it from that perspective.
42:21But you look at them over the course of the season, they played a lot of really good offense.
42:26You guys, you know, specifically were talking about Bryce Young and his response to having Brad Idzik as his play caller and
42:33their approach schematically versus how he's performed. I've walked out of the first month of the season feeling great about their offense
42:39in a way that I did not expect given the injuries to their offensive line and the questions I had about whether
42:45or not they'd be able to sustain a running game that could protect Bryce Young.
42:50And then on the other hand, I look at a team like Denver and Davis Webb and I'm like, you want to
42:56talk about having all the equipment you could possibly need to field a great offense.
43:00Maybe the best collection of offensive linemen in the league right now.
43:04You've got a head coach who, if you're borrowing from his scheme, has got every tool in his offensive playbook to be able to handle things.
43:11You've got a ball-winning wide receiver in Cortland Sutton.
43:14You've got a field stretcher in Jalen Waddell. You've got Pat Bryant as this kind of like, you know, breakout, potential breakout
43:20piece as a receiver who can kind of flex inside and out.
43:24And you're watching them play the 49ers and I'm like, why is it this freaking hard for you to complete a pass
43:30more than 10 yards down the field? I don't necessarily want to lay all of that blame on Webb's shoulders.
43:36I think there's a conversation I have about both him and Bo Nix.
43:40But just looking at the dichotomy in those two as play callers, given what you would have thought about their rosters entering
43:46the league, my mind has been kind of blown in the difference in how they've performed over the last few weeks.
43:52I think just bucketing the new play callers, period, into guys that have been maybe better or worse than we thought, that's full of plenty of surprises.
44:00I was excited to see what Idzik could do.
44:03I just, I think somebody mentioned this before recently because we were talking about Bryce Young and they were like, you guys
44:09had the Panthers so low in the supporting cast rankings coming into the year.
44:13And I think part of that is just questions about the offensive line, but also part of it is that either it
44:19was the quarterback or just the entire environment offensively.
44:22I kind of feel like we had just run into a dead end with like what this version of the Panthers was going to feel like.
44:29And I just couldn't have been more wrong about that.
44:32Like the scheme has felt more alive and the quarterback has done.
44:36It's also a reminder how impossible it is to fully extricate quarterback play from everything else.
44:40Like you try to do it as best as you can, but in reality, the quarterback is going to make the supporting
44:47cast look better while the supporting cast makes the quarterback look better, play caller included.
44:51And so the way that Bryce has played, I think reframes how you also see everything else, whether that's right or wrong.
44:58But Idzig has been great. The guy on defense that I think has probably been the most impressive defensive play caller among
45:04all the new guys is Rob Leonard. How many Rob Leonard conversations was anybody having coming into the season?
45:09Declan Doyle has been phenomenal. Tommy Reese in over the last two weeks has been really impressive.
45:14We'll talk about Atlanta. I think Mike Rutenberg and Brian Flurry have been good in the way I might've expected them to be.
45:21Like those guys with their situation, the personnel, what I expected those offenses and defenses to look like, that was probably expected.
45:27But then you've had guys that I was really excited about where the results just haven't been there so far.
45:33Like we'll see what happens with Christian Parker and the Cowboys.
45:36It's still very early. They've been really banged up with injuries, but that has been a long way to go.
45:42They have a long way to go. The tape is not good at all.
45:46And the other guy I'd throw in there, like I was wondering how quickly Jim Leonard could get the Bills defense to
45:53a place where that unit felt championship caliber. And again, it's so early.
45:56Like there's no reason to make definitive statements about any of this stuff, but the Bills are 26th in defensive DVOA over the first month.
46:04Like that unit will need to be better if the Bills want to get where they're going.
46:08And so it's been a mixed bag with a lot of the first year guys, where I think some people that had
46:15some name recognition or had some heat coming into it just haven't been as good as we might've expected.
46:20And some guys that maybe had kind of fallen into the background a little bit in all of the preseason discussions we
46:27were having have been some of the biggest hits among that group so far.
46:31Absolutely. And I think that, you know, when I think about Brad Isik as kind of like the headliner for me of
46:37the guy that I've walked out of the first month of the season feeling the most encouraged about, and we talked about
46:43this a little bit with Liam Cohen and his just understanding of the team that he's gotten, how to get the most out of it.
46:51It was very easy. It would have been very easy for others.
46:54And I certainly felt this way as well when he's talking about, hey man, as a head coach, I've got a million
47:01other things that I've got to manage. I can't be in Bryce Young's ear the way that I need to be in it.
47:07His quarterback's coach, the guy that's already in the room with him, talking to him, knows what he likes, knows what he
47:14doesn't, knows how he feels about, you know, different play calls as they come in, how to build a rhythm within the game.
47:20He would just be more connected with him than I will.
47:23That has 100% been borne out, right? Like you think about the RPOs, you think about the use of personnel for them,
47:30you think about the answers that they've built in, how they've leaned into when to attack the middle of the field with
47:36Bryce Young and how versus how to set up easy opportunities for him and Tett McMillan outside the numbers.
47:42That's something you can only get by really understanding the fact that putting the play sheet in somebody else's hands is not
47:48only going to help me as a head coach, but there is actually a chance that we can get even more out of this offense.
47:55And I didn't walk out of last year feeling like there was anything wrong with Dave, with the way Dave Canales was calling me.
48:02Oh, in fact, because of what I felt about Bryce Young at that time, I thought running the ball on early downs
48:09as much as possible, getting in these hyper condensed heavier personnel groups on early downs, really trying to protect your quarterback and
48:15then getting as spread out as you can in obvious passing situations and trying to give Bryce Young something that looked a
48:21little bit more like what he was used to at Alabama when he was in college, was the best kind of two personality mix to their O.
48:29This year feels more cohesive. It feels like they've kind of added some of those more spready elements with their heavy personnel.
48:35And you're just seeing a better version of Bryce Young because some of those marriages are happening.
48:40David Sweb, we've kind of touched on whether or not it's him or Bo Nix.
48:45To me, when I look at him and Nix, I do think there's a menu of calls that Nix is just going to struggle to maximize.
48:52And there's also the you can't establish a run thing, which really predates him as a play caller.
48:57And then you look across the league and it's kind of like similar conversations in different spots.
49:02Sean Mannion, same thing. You are here really to fix the run game so that way you could get the most out
49:09of your play action passing game with Jalen Hurts.
49:11Could not be more opposite. In fact, it feels like every week that goes on, it is less of whatever they hire
49:18Sean Mannion to do and more of what Nick Sirianni has gotten out of his offense on a year-to-year basis.
49:23Pretty telling. You know, you mentioned Rob Leonard, and I think that Derek was talking about it maybe last week or two
49:30weeks ago before they played the Chiefs. Were you watching?
49:33It's like, did they just play good football? Yeah, I don't.
49:36I don't really have a better answer than that.
49:39It reminds me a lot of how we talked about the Jags.
49:42I've said that all season, but it reminds me a lot of how we were talking about the Jags defense over the
49:48last season, where again, it's not like one specific magic bullet thing.
49:52And I do think that so far, the Raiders defense has been rooted in a lot of like the Seattle ideas in
49:58a more specific way than maybe what the Jags defensive philosophy was last year.
50:02But it's still a mix of enough stuff in his background where it's not like one magic bullet thing of like, oh,
50:09this is why the Rob Leonard defense works. It's just like, no, it's just good shit in the same way that we've
50:15been talking about the Jags for the last year.
50:18Absolutely. You know, and, you know, we talked about Declan Doyle doing the same thing, right?
50:22And that was actually more of a person. I wouldn't say necessarily a personality change because Todd Munko was trying to lean
50:29more into the heavier personnel while he was there before he left for Cleveland.
50:33But really leaning into all the things that were working in Chicago in terms of having multiple tight ends, right?
50:38I had a lot of questions about whether or not that was the right way to go about building this offense, bringing
50:45in a bunch of young guys who are going to be unproven.
50:48You're bringing in Matt Hibner. I don't even know what that skill set is going to look like.
50:53You're a Matt Hibner doubter. That's the reason. You got to believe in Matt Hibner.
50:58You know, like I had no idea what we were going to get out of this.
51:02And then you're watching the first quarter, then play the Colts.
51:06And it's like, ah, got it. I see what you are.
51:09I know exactly what I'm looking at right now.
51:11Okay, we're good. You know? So I think that there's a lot around the league.
51:16I would say Brian Fleury has kind of been in that same mix of a guy who just seems to have a
51:22really well-tailored understanding and execution of, I know who my best player is and how to feed him the ball.
51:28And I know how to build an offensive ecosystem around that to keep our targets for Jackson Smith and Jigba as explosive,
51:34as healthy, and as effective as possible. I've come away really, I think, really encouraged by guys that I just had no
51:41feel for when we came into the season. That has probably been the biggest surprise for me.
51:46I'm with you. I think that that's the right way to look at it.
51:50The Idzig-Davis Webb thing is interesting because, like you said, I didn't come away from last year thinking, oh, man, Dave Kanellis
51:56is mishandling how he's calling the offense and what the offense looks like.
52:00But I do think that when you look back to it, and obviously this is hindsight, but when you look back at
52:06it, you did feel a play caller that maybe didn't fully believe in what his quarterback was capable of.
52:12And the offense was getting called that way. And it's not, again, it's not like, I don't think he explicitly was like,
52:18I don't think that was unfounded, right? Like I could understand landing in that place if you were Dave Kanellis, but it
52:24just is a reminder of how much these little tiny things matter where when you have a guy and Idzig come in
52:31and be not even slightly deterred by whatever limitations the quarterback might have and just think that he's capable of anything.
52:37And it's also the way the offense has been built this year in Carolina, there is such intention behind pulling in things
52:43that might seem mismatched into one cohesive vision in order to maximize the quarterback.
52:47That to me feels like an offense built by an architect who believes in the quarterback.
52:52Like you're not going to try to tailor it in that way where you're trying to give him everything he can to
52:58be successful if you don't believe in what the ceiling of it could look like.
53:03It felt like last year the Panthers were calling and constructing the offense to get by.
53:07And I don't even mean that as a negative where this year it feels like they're calling and constructing the offense because
53:14they believe the quarterback when you give him all the tools can play at this sort of level.
53:19And I compare it to what's happening in Denver and it kind of feels like the offense is being...
53:24I thought Derek's point about this was so good on the Sunday night show where Bo Nix I think has most of
53:31the culpability in the offense feeling this way. But if you are the play caller, at a certain point, aren't you going
53:37to get beaten down by some of the choices he's making and then no longer call the offense thinking that he's the
53:43type of quarterback that can lift it? And now you're back in a place where you're more worried about the floor and
53:50creating an acceptable level for this thing to operate on?
53:53It feels like that. It feels like the Broncos are operating in the world that the 2025 Panthers did and the Panthers
53:59have completely broken out of that world. Well, and I would go back another season and say when I watched Denver, they
54:05remind me, at least offensively, they remind me so much of the 24 Eagles offensively over the first four weeks.
54:11I remember you bringing Kellen Moore... The Bo Nix, Jalen Hurts comparison rears...
54:15Man, we will never escape him. We will never escape him.
54:18But I remember Kellen Moore comes in. He's trying to be much more ambitious with the passing game.
54:23We want to push the ball downfield more. We want to put more on the quarterback's plate to understand when he's going
54:30to be hot and where these different options are.
54:32And the offense just absolutely fell flat on his face in the first month.
54:36And then they had that bye week, right? And I think that the story's been told enough where Jordan Mailata and Lane
54:43Johnson basically kind of corner, you know, Nick Sirianni and Kellen Moore and say, we're not doing that anymore, okay?
54:48Us guys, the big guys over here, let us carry the way the rest of the way.
54:53And I think that my concern with Denver is that they don't have a Saquon Barkley who can lead the league in
55:00rushes of 60 and 50 and 40 yards the way that they did in 2024.
55:04So I think that there is going to come a point where if you're Davis Webb, you have to really kind of
55:10do some soul searching and figure out how can I manufacture?
55:14And I think that that really is the adjective that you'd have to use if you're Davis Webb.
55:19How can I manufacture a healthy offense knowing that I can't guarantee we're going to get the chunk gains that my play
55:25calling would otherwise try to go find for R.O.?
55:28It's a really difficult way to live, especially when you know how talented the supporting cast around your quarterback can be when they're at their best.
55:35I don't really know how they're going to square that circle because there just are too many times in a game.
55:41And I think I've talked back and forth with Derek about this.
55:45I think we probably chatted about this with Bo Nix as well.
55:48We're just watching tape and you're like, dude, this isn't even hard.
55:52I'd understand if we were asking you to do some very difficult things.
55:56You have the arm and the throws are there.
55:58And if you don't make the throws, what the hell do you want me to do with this offense, buddy?
56:04It's really hard to run an offense under that.
56:07When a quarterback is turning down decisions, that would be not only the healthiest and most ambitious, but in a lot of
56:13times, you really shouldn't have any other option but to take some of these shots to open receivers.
56:18It really is crazy watching how distinct the difference is between an offense where the quarterback feels compelled to show that sort of ambition and one that doesn't.
56:26It's just, it's an immense difference. And I think that you have felt that difference between both the Panthers and Broncos offenses
56:33this year for two quarterbacks who, I think both were kind of at a crossroads in terms of what we needed to see from them.
56:40Like this was the year for both of them.
56:42With Nix, it was, we're in year three. We just traded for Jalen Waddle.
56:46You're in the same system. We're building on this.
56:49We're giving you the play caller you probably want.
56:52Show me what you got. And we've seen the results so far.
56:55And there's been a lot of the same stuff with Bryce Young.
56:59People didn't want them to pick up the option.
57:01And after they did, it was like, all right, what are you going to show us as you're sitting here wanting a contract extension?
57:08And it's been the exact opposite set of returns so far.
57:11All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more of these.
57:17I don't want to spend a ton of time on this one because we talked about it ad nauseum, but I don't
57:23think you can do this show in good faith and not talk about the fact that the Chargers have been the biggest
57:30flaming disaster and disappointment in the entire league. And why I want it.
57:33Yeah, we have to, right? But actually, I've talked about this so much.
57:37You live in San Diego, right? You have been, your proximity to this team is very real in ways that probably aren't good for your long-term health.
57:45As you've watched them this year, what have your impressions been, not of like why it isn't working, I think we've talked
57:51enough about why it isn't working, but what it means that it's not working to this extent.
57:56I think that the question I keep coming back to is, who does it say the most about, right?
58:02Like, does this say the most about Mike McDaniel?
58:04Does this say the most about Justin Herbert? Or does this say the most about Jim Harbaugh and where he's at in his career?
58:11And I think maybe the most unsatisfying answer is that it does feel right now, at least like it's pretty evenly split
58:18because the things that go wrong, you can point in every, all three directions and say, this is because of a decision that X person made.
58:25This is because of a play call that this guy made.
58:28This is because of a decision on the field that Justin Herbert made.
58:32It all just kind of seems to be going awry in a way that makes it hard to really kind of distill
58:38it down to like, oh, it's just because Mike McDaniel is calling these sets of plays or is mixing his use of
58:45the running backs in this way or change Justin Herbert's footwork or the timing on his throws.
58:50But that's incomplete, right? That's incomplete. Over four weeks now, if it were any just one of those things, I would like
58:56to believe that there are enough smart football people in that building, right?
59:00That you could identify that and make it and fix it relatively quickly.
59:04It's all of it, right? It genuinely is all of it.
59:07And I think that over the next month of the season, I think that that's really where my focus is on is
59:13can we get more clarity on whether or not their failures in September was a bigger reflection on any one of those three characters?
59:20I think that's really kind of where I'm trying to hone in on.
59:24My problem with that is you can't pull apart the Mike McDaniel thing from the Jim Harbaugh thing.
59:29Right. It's impossible to do. And so I think that is why, at the end of the day, I probably land on Harbaugh more than anything else.
59:37And I'm willing to admit this. This is, there's confirmation bias associated with this here because of how I view the coaches
59:43I would hire, the coaches I would chase, all of this stuff.
59:47We are reaching a critical moment with the CEO coach.
59:50We are approaching a critical moment with why we seek these guys out, what they're offering, what the argument is as to
59:56why these are the types of people you should hire to run your football organization.
60:00The argument about the Jim Harbaugh's of the world, the Harbaugh's of the world period, is that this will create a certain floor for the organization.
60:08But if that's the argument and the floor falls out of it, which is entirely possible, we saw it happen with Pete Carroll a year ago.
60:15I, why is that the argument? Like, why are you trying to establish a certain floor when we now have plenty of
60:22evidence that that floor is not a guarantee? And I don't even understand that being the argument.
60:27Like, to me, it's more about if I have a coach on one side of the ball, like, the Niners' floor is
60:33established by what Kyle Shanahan can build out of the offense.
60:36Like, I don't think floor is established by, and this may be true, but do we really think that floor is established
60:43by some nebulous understanding of, like, physicality and culture?
60:45Like, I think it kind of is, but we don't have that many...
60:49I don't want to be flippant and dismissive of that as an idea.
60:53Like, football is built on those ideas. Like, I embrace that.
60:56Like, I understand that. You need to have guys that buy into that.
61:00This is not an X's and O's chalkboard game.
61:02But we don't have enough evidence that the X's and O's guys are any worse at creating physical talent, physical, like, bought-in
61:09football teams than some of these guys who walk in the door where that's the thing they're billed to be.
61:14And so, if we're not getting that in abundance from those guys compared to the X's and O's coaches, why are we still doing this?
61:22Like, what is the argument for these guys? It's one of those things where, like, it's necessary but not sufficient in 2026, man.
61:28That's where I'm at. And that's just what it is.
61:31It's necessary, but the other guys are no less capable of giving you that necessary physicality.
61:36Like, it's not... Exactly. There's so many examples of this recently.
61:39Like, Ben Johnson's a fucking hard-ass. Like, think about what the evidence we have of the way that Mike McDonald was able to get these guys to play.
61:47Like, the guys that are playing like this that have edge are just as often coming from, like, the supposedly nebbish nerd
61:54coaches as they are from these guys who are, like, these supposed to be big football dudes.
61:58Like, I just... You look at... It's harder and harder for me to justify.
62:02He had it in his building. He had it in his building with Jesse Minter.
62:07Like, you listen to Jesse Minter talk, and like you said, he comes across, like, every offensive coordinator that gets teased for
62:13being one of the, you know, the buddies of the pencil pushers, and then you watch his defenses play in Los Angeles,
62:20and it's like, they will put six or seven DBs on the field, and they are still denting people's face masks when they try to run at them.
62:28So it is not... We can't treat it like it's a zero-sum proposition or it's a one-or-the-other thing, and I'd like to
62:34believe knowing Mike McDaniel's history with Kyle Shanahan and his commitment to trying to run the football not only in the smartest
62:40way but in a way that gets his big people on your little people in a way that's going to hurt your
62:47little people, I would like to believe that he has not lost the ability to do that or his understanding of how
62:53to mix that in with, hey, sometimes we just gotta be downhill and just punch a team in the mouth, right?
62:59I don't think that that's lost on any of the people in the building, but it does come back to what you said.
63:06Like, as Jim Harbaugh, if you're going to be the CEO type, then you have to come out of each one of
63:12these weeks with a new directive of what it's going to mean for your offense to look like the most physical team,
63:19to look like you have an edge, to look like you can keep your quarterback upright.
63:23We have not seen that once this season, right?
63:26And certainly, and if we've seen it, it hasn't been for more than like a four- or five-play sequence, right?
63:32You get these great opening scripts where you can tell people have poured over the film to put together the best way
63:38to get you down the field as quickly as possible.
63:41And then as the flow of the game goes along, you're sitting here looking like this could not possibly have been the
63:47best ideas that the combination of Jim Harbaugh and Mike McDaniel could have left a week's worth of practice with.
63:53Like, this just can't be the case. And if that's how I feel after a month consistently of watching this team, who
63:59else's feet does it land on but the head coaches?
64:02And then I think that we have to extend that conversation maybe to Joe Ortiz as a GM, right?
64:08And all the promises made of what the offensive line situation would be and how it was going to express itself out
64:14on the field and what it was going to do for Justin Herbert.
64:18He did not forget how to be a good quarterback who can make every throw.
64:22You can watch the second half of their loss not lose his ability to throw some absolute piss missiles when he needs to.
64:29It's just clearly there's some sort of breakdown in philosophy and execution and approach on a week-to-week basis that I don't, maybe
64:35I just did not appreciate enough when I was going up and watching them at training camp and minicamp because it didn't
64:42seem like this team was very far away in the way that they are when they're on the field now.
64:47I don't think they thought they were very far away.
64:50I think this has probably been shocking to a lot of people in the building even as shocking as it's been to people out of the building.
64:58The last thing I'll say about the coach archetype thing is that I do have like a half-joking working theory that you should just hire jacked nerds.
65:06McVay, McDonald, Ben Johnson just like, is my play caller like very smart and very good?
65:11Yes. Is he also jacked? Yes. Like that's it.
65:13Like those, they just hire jacked nerds to be your play callers.
65:17It's not a perfect theory, right? Like Liam Cohen isn't yoked.
65:20Like Kyle Shanahan I don't think spends an hour in lifting weights every single day but there are enough of them now
65:26and it's started to build where I have a working theory that's coming along.
65:30I like this. I like this. I like using jacked as like I'm trying to glean just enough of your personality by
65:37your insane dedication to your physical physique knowing that you don't need it to be good at your job.
65:42I think that that says a lot about who you are as a human being.
65:46I think it's a discipline thing too. Right? I think it says something about the discipline necessary to like have to work
65:53out that way and fit it into your schedule on top of everything else.
65:57I'm only half kidding about this. Like I actually do think that there is something here.
66:02We joked about Brian Fleury early in the year when I said he looked like a defensive line coach and to me
66:08it does not surprise me that Seattle looks really good on offense when I look at a guy at a podium that looks like that.
66:15That looks like somebody who is about two things looking great and smashing your face in a run game.
66:21Okay? Everything else seems very optional in his life.
66:23All right. So among the most disappointing things about the league this season and just in terms of compared to preseason expectations
66:30the Chargers offense and the Chargers period are probably number one.
66:33I think you can make an argument that the Texans defense after the way that last week went is probably also in that discussion.
66:40They weren't as bad they haven't been as bad all year as they were against the Cowboys.
66:45I just want to be very clear about that.
66:47Like the down-to-down numbers are still pretty good but those issues are still surprising and that is one of the things that you wanted to dig into.
66:55Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you watch the tape and it's like they did not change who they are personality-wise.
67:01They're not and it's not like Philadelphia at the top of this conversation where we're talking about hey, if you're an Eagles
67:07fan you're trying to tell yourself that certain things will regress defensively and you'll get more pressure on the quarterback and certain
67:13things will start to happen for you. You'll still be able to play these light boxes and stop the run.
67:19You watch Houston's front four and they still look like the goddamn Monstars.
67:23Daniel Hunter and Will Anderson are still unblockable. I would say that Will Anderson is probably playing the best football of his
67:29life over the first month of the season. He is an absolutely unbeatable freak of nature type again this year and you're
67:36just watching what's happening on the back end and it's literally every problem that it seems like they're having right now typified
67:42all the ways that they were better than the rest of the league in coverage because they never made these mistakes.
67:48They used to never have these communication breakdowns where one guy's running a crosser and a safety doesn't pick him up right
67:54and now CeeDee Lamb gets an easy 30 yard completion over the middle of the field.
67:59They never had these issues in stacks and bunches where hey guys can just run out free access into the flat and
68:05go get you nine yards on first and ten.
68:08That's not how you would beat the Texans defense.
68:11It used to have to be a whole lot more of an effort to try to find these open windows in the
68:17passing game and obviously I think Sunday like you said it was probably the worst that they've looked all year.
68:23Maybe not having Aziz Alshair had a little bit of an influence on that.
68:27I'm open to the idea that it was. I think that there's a lot of credit you can give to Brian Schottenheimer
68:33and that offensive staff for putting together a game plan that really muted the impact that Derek Stingley could have on the
68:39game while also attacking all the other ways in which that defense can be vulnerable on the back end.
68:45I thought they did an excellent job and avoiding the guys they needed to avoid.
68:49But these are just it's simple stuff. It's Kamari Lasseter not being a liability.
68:53It's Reed Blankenship not being a liability in coverage.
68:56Maybe that's where you need to start and it's unsatisfying I think if you're a fan just hearing that guys got to
69:02play harder guys got to play better right? It is unsatisfying but they don't have to change their coverage shells.
69:08They don't have to change their approach I don't think.
69:11They've just got to be in better tune with one another and some of those second half breakdowns with passing opportunities I
69:17feel like there is something to get turned around that's not going to take a lot of effort.
69:23It has just been a shock to me to watch a defense that I herald as one of the most disciplined one
69:29of the smartest while also being able to play a relatively simple football game not being able to do so knowing how
69:35good the players are across their defensive roster. The news just came across while we were recording D'Amico Ryan said that he's
69:42taking back play calling duties for the defense which that's just not the type of thing you expect that type of thing
69:48from units that maybe you thought might flounder early in the season.
69:52Right. Right? Like that's the desperation coaching staff playbook is that well it's not working so we're going to change the play caller.
69:58That happens all the time. I didn't expect the Texans defense a month into the season to be one of the units
70:05that was playing those hits and that's where we are right now.
70:08And I think it's necessary, right? Like I'm not I'm actually not mad at it if I'm D'Amico Ryan it's like you
70:14need to go out change like even if it's not Matt Burke did a great job last year if it's not all
70:21Matt Burke's fault at this point you're 0-4 your season's on life support something probably has to happen.
70:26If I'm D'Amico Ryan if we fail this year it's not going to be because CJ Stroud is lights out and my
70:32defense couldn't get a goddamn stop in the second half it can't we can't go out like that.
70:38Right? So I 100% appreciate and respect the idea that like we are going if we're going to go down on our
70:44sword we're going to go down with the thing that got me this job in the first place and that was me
70:50calling excellent defenses in San Francisco so I can respect that and I wouldn't be surprised and it may be going to
70:57be one of those causation versus correlation things I would not be surprised at all if over the next month of the
71:03season we see things start to tighten up a little bit on the back end just knowing his detail and coverage his
71:09detail and the approaches to structuring their coverages to having answers to different formations knowing what offenses want to do to you
71:16and being able to take away your opponent's best player those are all the things even when he didn't have the best
71:22players on the back end in San Francisco they were able to achieve year over year I wouldn't be shocked at all
71:28if they were able to get back to that over the next month to two months of the season the last surprising
71:35thing that we wanted to talk about is something that was the only one that both of us had on our list
71:41and it's the Atlanta Falcons the Atlanta Falcons I think and I made it as broad as possible because I think on
71:48both sides of the ball this is worth bringing up like what the offense has looked like over the last two weeks
71:54since Penix got back but we hit this on our Monday Night Recap and I'll be curious your thoughts about it I'm
72:00just so impressed by what the defense looks like the amount of guys that aren't playing for this team both guys we
72:07knew about coming into the year but even in season injuries we didn't even mention this in real time when we were
72:13doing the Monday Recap Z'Darrius Smith played like two snaps he played like two snaps in that game so one of their
72:19like de facto starters on the defensive line just out for the game and it didn't matter the defensive line still controlled
72:26this entire thing and so for the defense to look as good as it has and the other guy we didn't mention
72:32on that show that I think is worth mentioning in terms of how they're playing and the way the defensive front is
72:39playing Nate Alley is their defensive line coach he is of this system he was the Colts defensive line coach for a
72:45bit he was in Houston before he came to the Falcons and the Falcons even if their system is a little bit
72:51more blended because of the personnel that they've had over the last couple years the defensive front specifically is still rooted in
72:58four down attack Jim Schwartz Jim Washburn type stuff and so he comes from that world they're playing that way and so
73:04just really everything about the way the Falcons have looked over the last couple weeks and how just staggeringly good and above
73:10their maybe expectation both the offense and defense are playing they're absolutely to me one of the surprises of the season even
73:17if it's only been a two week sample that we've really understood how good they are I mean the defense really is
73:23where I think we should start because they are somehow second in the league behind the Vikings in quarterback hits you could
73:29not have told me under any circumstances they could have ran cover zero every snap and I would not have believed that
73:36they would get through the first month of the season being second in quarterback hits as long as you're just watching it's
73:42like their guys just play with their hair on fire man like they can run some decent stunts I think they did
73:49especially I would say against Green Bay on Thursday night you know a couple of weeks ago I thought they did a
73:55really good job of trying to show pressure in certain spots really trying to manipulate protection so there's definitely some thought going
74:01in there with Jeff Olbergen being able to kind of set up guys to be able to get easy one-on-one opportunities where
74:08they can go attack but a lot of this is just Brandon Dorlis just being a great hand fighter you know a
74:14lot of it is just their edge rushers are constantly crushing pockets moving towards the quarterback getting the hell off the ball
74:20and affecting plays that way and I think we saw this last year a little bit on the back end and it's
74:27another and it's really where things tie together they were able to get a lot of their rookies last year in terms
74:33of forcing turnovers taking away passing windows and they play aggressively this is not hey we're just going to play a bunch
74:39of quarter quarter halves and our safeties are just getting the hell out of there and we just never want to get
74:46beat over the top they're sitting on routes when they can right they're driving on passing windows when they can and trying
74:52to go get their hands on the football it's probably I think outside of some of the other things we talked about
74:59so far today over the last two weeks I would say that their defense has been one of the stories of this
75:05season in terms of getting the most out of what we expected to not be very much on the other side of
75:11the ball it just feels like Michael Pinnock's being back gives him an opportunity to do something that I think Kevin Stefanski
75:18has always done well and maybe we just didn't he just didn't have the talent to be able to maximize it knowing
75:24stylistically what you need out of your passing game to maximize your quarterback skill set there are times where I watch Atlanta
75:30and I'm like who did this guy work for again because I feel like I'm watching the air choreo right like you've
75:37got a bunch of routes that are 18 to 25 yards deep breaking across the middle of the field Michael Pinnock's got
75:43max protection and he's just ripping the ball and it's impressive to me that Stefanski and Tommy Reese were able to step
75:50in really not knowing what version of Michael Pinnock's they were even going to get because of how banged up he was
75:56all off season but clearly having enough presence of mind to say his skill set is X and we can get into
76:02these certain things in our playbook with Drake London with their use of tight ends to be able to get him clean
76:09pockets and give him opportunities to aggressively attack down the field and all of that is possible not because of their play
76:15calling but obviously don't want to leave out the effect that Bijan Robinson has on every defense and what you have to
76:21account for with him on a down-to-down basis what they've done up front with the run game it's just such a cool
76:28example of how run game quality and even like offensive line and overall schematic quality can also be impacted by the back
76:34they're the best example of this where I think that and it's it really kind of flies in the face of how
76:40we talked about running back value for a very long time and to me this is like the best example on the
76:47other side of it where if the running back is often a product of the situation the environment you place him into
76:53it inherently limits the value of that player he makes the environment better yeah it's like the way that his ability to
77:00set things up the pace that he plays with like the combination blocks are more effective when Bijan Robinson is the running
77:06back because of the timing he plays with in order to set those things up than they might be for a back
77:12who can't play that way and so you want to give some credit to like oh look at what Bill Callahan and
77:19the offensive line and all those guys are doing and they're really giving him these opportunities and then you watch the plays
77:25unfold and it's like well yeah it's all well constructed but at the same time he's making everything else look better it's
77:31just and I know this can't happen with running backs he's not the first player that's ever felt this way but it's
77:38the most obvious example of it that I can possibly remember like I think that we've had backs that transcend the situation
77:44that you put them in and show the value because of that but I think most of the backs who you can
77:50credibly say that about are doing it at the end of plays right it's the Derrick Henry's it's the Saquon Barkley's where
77:57what they're getting yeah Jonathan Taylor's a great example where what they're getting is if the play is blocked for six they're
78:03getting you 80 and that's where you feel the gap between those players and the rest of them Bajan is not but
78:10he's even better at it what he's doing is an even more refined exaggerated example of that exact same idea and it's
78:16just watching it happen in real time it's head spinning but in a cool way I'm trying to figure out how this
78:22is it's accelerating everything and Le'Veon Bell you mentioned I don't think their run game was really not explosive it's probably hard
78:29for people to conceptualize this way because their run game wasn't often explosive enough on a consistent basis but I thought about
78:35Marshawn Lynch with those later Seattle offensive lines of being able to hey he can jump cut he can dead leg he
78:41can push bring his weight one way to the other he can change directions out this block to be able to finish
78:48this play in a way that most running backs can't I would say maybe like John than it is with Bajan where
78:54he's reversing field after running into a wall and making guys miss it's a miss tackles thing more than a he's lift
79:00Kenneth Walker is lifting the environment in a way that I think we've seen more often before and makes more sense than
79:07what Bajan is doing like I think that if you tape for the Falcons Bajan Robinson is doing that in slightly different
79:13ways but he's also somebody that can be a home run hitter right so he's doing the stuff that Marshawn Lynch was
79:20doing for the 2013 Seahawks and how he's lifting the quality of the offensive line but he's also ripping off 60 yard
79:26touchdown runs like he's Jamal Charles was what the combination of the stuff we're talking about in terms of running back nuance
79:32with that explosive ability like maybe that's actually the guy that we should be throwing out there but the fact that you're
79:39having for today Deontay please tell the people where they can check out all of the wonderful stuff that you were doing
79:45these days working at the ringer so ball nor notebook comes out every now comment and leave a rating we'll see you
79:51next time