First impressions of the teams that FLOPPED in Week 1
STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this podcast and kept the full transcript here for context.
1 hr 3 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Sep 17, 2026
Published
Thu, September 17, 2026
9
Player insights
8
Players mentioned
Topics
Matthew StaffordAaron RodgersBrady RussellDavis WebbJordan LoveJustin HerbertLadd McConkeyMatt Slater
Player analysis
Player insights
Aaron Rodgers
PositiveUsage48:06
Aaron Rodgers saw a resurgence in his career production after Matt LaFleur implemented a system that utilized more under-center snaps and play-action, helping him win two MVPs after a period of diminishing returns under Mike McCarthy.
Insight pageBrady Russell
NegativeDepth Chart95:32
Brady Russell is cited as an example of the type of player whose presence on a roster reflects a team's commitment to special teams, as coaches and GMs must prioritize these players to maintain unit quality.
Insight pageDavis Webb
NegativeRole40:36
While Davis Webb is the current play-caller, the source notes that the game planning process retains significant carryover from Sean Payton's system, making the offense's poor performance in Week 1 particularly concerning despite Webb being a first-time play-caller.
Insight pageJordan Love
PositiveUsage31:28
Jordan Love is praised for his aggressive playstyle, which resulted in a high yards-per-attempt average in Week 1, though his efficiency is currently hampered by the Packers' inability to establish a consistent ground game.
Insight pageJustin Herbert
NegativeUsage10:10
Herbert is facing scrutiny regarding his processing speed, with coaches noting he is 'a little slow' among the elite quarterbacks. While he may improve as he adjusts to a new system with more motion and intricacies, his performance in Week 1 was concerning, and he could be exposed if he fails to adapt.
Insight pageLadd McConkey
NegativeUsage16:56
The Chargers' passing game struggled to function effectively in Week 1, particularly when rookie wide receiver Ladd McConkey was off the field.
Insight pageMatt Slater
PositiveRole54:49
Matthew Slater is cited as a prime example of a 'core' special teams player who provided the Patriots with a distinct advantage by being a mainstay on the unit, contrasting with teams that rely on inexperienced rookies.
Insight pageMatthew Stafford
PositiveProjection27:28
Despite the Rams' Week 1 struggles, there is ultimate faith in Matthew Stafford and Sean McVay to maintain a high-performing offense throughout the season, provided Stafford remains healthy.
Insight pagePositiveUsage47:47
The source highlights that the Rams' shift back to a run-heavy approach after leaning too heavily on drop-back passing with Matthew Stafford helped revitalize the offense and contributed to Stafford's MVP-level production.
Insight pageFull transcript
Episode Transcript
0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show brought to you by the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card.
0:05I'm Robert Mays. Week 1 is done, but we're still sitting with some of the first impressions we got from the first
0:11glimpse we had of these teams in the 2026 season.
0:14That's what we did today. We went through some first impressions that really made an impact, mostly in a bad way, from
0:20the Week 1 games with our old friend Mike Sando.
0:23We chatted a little bit about the Chargers, the Rams, the Packers and the Broncos and what our early looks at those
0:29teams might mean for the season at large. We also spent some time at the end of the show and encourage you guys to go listen to this.
0:37And if you've not read the story, I encourage you to go to check that out as well.
0:42Sando has spent a ton of time this offseason working on a project that was focused on how teams allocate their resources
0:48and how teams really commit to being quality special teams units.
0:51And some of the really meaningful, impactful choices you can make from a roster construction standpoint to some of the other areas
0:58where you're either in this or you're not. And you feel the impact of that and how organizationally your overall prioritization of
1:04special teams can matter as much as anything. And so we talked a little bit about that at the end, but really enjoyed this conversation with Mike.
1:11Let's get to it right now. Joining us today to help us pick through the rubble of week one in the NFL.
1:18It is our old friend, Mike Sando. Mike, how you doing?
1:21It's good. There is some rubble too. There's some rubble to go through here.
1:25So I'm excited to be back. It was great seeing you this offseason at your 422 camp stops.
1:30I think it caught you at a couple of them.
1:33I assume you've showered and gotten the sweat off.
1:35Yeah, I think at this point I feel a little bit cleaner.
1:38I'm not sure I've bounced back by how I ate over the month of August.
1:43That's going to be a process that leads deep into September and October.
1:46But I'm cleaner than I was. I can treat you to that, you know.
1:50Yeah, you were part of a fantastic meal that we had in Minneapolis where I think we decided when we were ordering
1:57that it was going to be easier just to tell them what we didn't want on the menu rather than picking the menus that we did want.
2:04And that's always how I want to attack any menu that I see.
2:08And so I appreciate you helping me accomplish that.
2:10It was a twist my arm, you know. It was great.
2:13So really had a good time. Did it get through expense?
2:17You were able to expense that too? Oh, yeah.
2:19Come on now. Come on now. What's the point of having any sort of pull if you can't make that happen?
2:25But hey, you know, not to get too far off the track.
2:28But one time I was when I was at ESPN, I was, you know, didn't bring a suit or anything on the trip.
2:35And I was going, I was in LA and quarterback tears came out and they're like, hey, can you get with Van Pelt?
2:41And I said, how do I have a suit or nothing?
2:44They said, hey, no worry, Sando. Get it. Buy yourself a suit.
2:48Expense it. Expense the suit. I said, okay. So I go get a suit.
2:52I did a great job. I mean, I got this whole thing for like, it was under 400 bucks for everything.
2:58Great job. Get home. It gets kicked back. No, you gotta, we can't expense a suit.
3:02So I said, what? It was this whole thing.
3:05And then. You got receipts on that though. You gotta be able to send that to somebody.
3:10Some higher up got back to me and said, the only way this works, Sando, is if you donate it to charity and should give us a receipt.
3:18I think I can say this now that I've been gone for ESPN since 2019.
3:22I went and found the oldest, most ill fitting suit out of my closet and made the donation.
3:27And the other one became my go to for a couple of years.
3:30So, you know, you do what you gotta do on these expenses.
3:34And I thought we said that was a funny story.
3:37On our way out the door at Grantland, I think one of our bosses at one point, when we were thinking about
3:43how much money we could spend in that final couple of months, I think the exact line was, you could expense a
3:49fur coat right now and I wouldn't give a shit.
3:52So it was, it's always fun when you get to the end and you can be a little bit looser with how we talk about this stuff.
4:00Week one, always a fascinating experience in the NFL because we go through the entire summer and you think you know, what might happen.
4:06You have an inkling of what these teams might look like.
4:09And the first week is just full of surprises, both good and bad.
4:13And so we're going to dig through a few of those today and just talk about some first impressions that we thought were particularly notable.
4:20Most of them bad. Most of them from teams that had sky high expectations for one reason or another and then came
4:26out of the gates really stumbling and what that might mean and how that might have to reset what we think about
4:33these teams and what we should expect from them moving forward.
4:36Let's start with the Los Angeles Chargers. We're going to dig into four teams here.
4:40And I wanted to start with the Chargers because I think you started your pick six column with an item about the
4:46Chargers coming out of that game on Sunday. I believe they finished 26th in EPA per play offensively in that game against the Cardinals.
4:53This was a group that Mike McDaniel coming in, Justin Herbert's there.
4:56We're taking this thing to the moon. And our first look at it was anything but.
5:01As you sort through what that performance from the Chargers looked like on Sunday, where is your head at with this?
5:07And what are the things that you think are most important as you try to piece this all together?
5:12So, you know, you end up if you try to take the long view on it, then you're just a Herbert defender
5:18and hey, there's no way to win at some point.
5:21There's no way around that. So I think you have to not make the excuses.
5:25I do think that it's an inexcusable performance at home by a team that's supposed to be a lot better than Arizona
5:32and has a lot more talent, certainly at the quarterback position and and lost.
5:35So it is concerning to me. Now, I do think that, you know, the things that really concern me long term about the Chargers are their depth.
5:43I don't think it's very good. I didn't break down the block punt and all of that.
5:48But that's been an issue for them. You know, they're just the depth of your roster and their interior offensive line is an issue.
5:55They're platooning guards. I mean, if you're platooning guards.
5:57That's not a good sign to me. It's not because one of them, they're both Hall of Famers in a certain area.
6:03It's because what are we doing? And so I have concerns with with that being a problem for them throughout the year.
6:10I do also, as I wrote about this is just coming from coaches, you know, who have played against Herbert that good talent.
6:16They still like him. They'd love to have him, but he is a little slow among the better quarterbacks in his processing.
6:22And so when you have a new system with a lot more motion and things going on, a lot more intricacies, he could be possibly exposed.
6:30Now, I wish I dived into that before the season.
6:32It's easy to say now. But I think there is probably some of that to where he'll get more comfortable in it and get better in it.
6:40And maybe this is one of his worst days of the year.
6:43Yeah, there's a lot to dig through. I think what I would start is we came into the season and obviously the
6:50Chargers made so many investments in that interior, the offensive line.
6:53And then that group looks nothing like it was supposed to when we were considering it at the beginning of training camp.
6:59I remember my first stop on the training camp tour.
7:02One of them was in Los Angeles and talking to people there about Tyler Biotish and just how excited they were to
7:08have Tyler Biotish and just how urgent their pursuit of him was.
7:11I mean that he took his plan, I think, was to take a series of quick visits after being released by Washington and then make a decision.
7:19The Chargers were like, we're letting him get on that plane and we're going to make this happen right now.
7:25And the whole point of going out and really showing some urgency to upgrade its center was just to make this thing
7:31on the interior feel different than it had last year where they really, really struggled.
7:35They struggled along the entire interior. It was an absolute mess.
7:38But what they were getting in terms of pass protection, the mental side of things from the center specifically, it was a non-starter for the offense.
7:46And so let's get a veteran center, a stabilizing force, and then we'll take a couple swings at guard.
7:51We'll draft a guy in the second round. We'll sign a couple guys in free agency.
7:55Cole Strange came from Miami. And as long as Mike McDaniel has a center, we can get by with maybe a little
8:02bit less physicality and size at guard because we have the center and the tackles.
8:06Well, then Biotish gets hurt and this entire thing gets sent to a tailspin before the season even starts.
8:11And you look at what the running game looked like specifically, and then the pass protection stuff, which we can talk about.
8:17Let's look at next gen this morning. 61% of the Chargers runs in that game involved the player getting hit at or behind the line of scrimmage.
8:2561%. And I think they finished 29th in EPA per rush per next gen coming out of that game.
8:30The 50% of American Hampton's carries in that game came into a light box.
8:34And those were the final numbers that we saw on the ground.
8:38That's just a non-starter. Like if that's what it's going to look like when you're trying to run the football against a
8:44team that is daring you to do it by how they're playing, the rest of it is just never going to come together.
8:50And so it was tempting at points this offseason for both the investments that they made and McDaniel's history to just kind
8:57of hand wave it and say, oh, they'll be fine.
8:59Like they'll be able to get by with that group.
9:02And so far, our early returns are they have not been able to get by with that group.
9:07And to me, as excited as they were to add the center from Washington, Washington was not like, oh, my gosh, we're losing the center.
9:14They cut them up. They cut them. They moved on for me on purpose.
9:18And they didn't really have like, it's not like they used a first round pick on a center.
9:23They didn't really even have a center. So you always have to look into that because we're going to get the narratives from one team's side.
9:31Well, you got to look at the other team's side.
9:34Like no one was riding all offseason. How are they going to get by?
9:38You know, and I think it's what's so fascinating to me in that inside that division of the AFC West is who
9:44did who did the Raiders get at center? And they paid way too much.
9:48You can say whatever you want. Tyler Lindenbaum. Who's Lindenbaum from?
9:51The same place the GM of the Chargers is.
9:53But the GM of the Chargers isn't going to spend that type of money in free agency.
9:58He wants to build it a different way. And so I think that's the interesting part of this build is there's urgency in this division.
10:05There's urgency for a lot of these teams. But I feel like they are taking a longer range view of, hey, let's get the cap in order.
10:13Let's get rid of these guys. We'll get this thing set up.
10:16And in the meantime, you know, when Ladd McConkie goes out, you can't function as a passing game.
10:21The conversation about the front office specifically brings me to the kind of the bigger picture look I want to take at this.
10:28And you mentioned it a little bit with Herbert.
10:30He did not play well on Sunday. And coming into the season, even if we get to a place over the course
10:37of this year where the interior offensive line is going to remain a question and pass protection is going to be an
10:43issue in terms of both their performance and the quarterbacks handling of it.
10:46Like they got picked on and pass pro even beyond the individual talent level of the interior offensive lineman in that game.
10:53Whatever the systemic concerns, if we get to the end of this year and their passing game in their offense are middling
10:59and there's something left to be desired. They're going to people that are going to want to have a real conversation about
11:05Justin Herbert, because the whole point was we have Mike McDaniel here now.
11:09It's going to get fixed. Mike McDaniel with Justin Herbert.
11:12This is the time that he's fully going to be unleashed.
11:15And if that doesn't happen, even if not all of it is on him, a discussion is going to emerge from that.
11:21And I wonder if there's going to be a broader discussion that emerges about a lot of the stakeholders in Los Angeles,
11:27because like you just said, well, we're not really spending any money in free agency and we're going to be a build through the draft team.
11:34I don't we haven't really talked about the fact that the Chargers took a running back in the first round of the
11:41draft when they have interior when they have offensive line needs, when they have defensive talent needs.
11:45We haven't really talked about the fact that Jim Harbaugh is supposed to be this floor setting coach where you do all the little things right.
11:53And that's what the whole process, the promise of Jim Harbaugh is.
11:56But this is a team that is getting punts blocked and making bad fourth down decisions.
12:01And I just wonder what sort of discussions we'll be having if it continues to go like this about the people that
12:07we treat like firmly known positive quantities for this team and whether that's going to start shifting if this doesn't get better.
12:13Yeah. The number one thing to look at there to me is when Jim Harbaugh went to the 49ers, look at the players that were there.
12:20I know they hadn't won a lot and stuff, but look at the look at the guys on defense.
12:26I mean, they had a lot of good players there.
12:29And they had Vic Fangio. And they had Vic Fangio.
12:31And so the book on Harbaugh has been, yeah, the great leader, a little quirky, all this, believes in guys and all of that.
12:38But he's always been very dependent, more so than other coaches on his staff, because he's not going to go in there
12:44and create a competitive advantage with his offense. Right?
12:47And so when he had Greg Roman, that was great when he had the quarterback who could really run and a great run game and good offensive line.
12:55He had in the 49ers and all of that.
12:57But now he's probably a little bit going to be dependent on McDaniel, who, by the way, if they have a good
13:04year, he's going to leave and will be starting it over again.
13:07So I'm with you that, like, this could shift as the season goes along and there could be some difficult discussions in
13:13terms of what they need to be doing with the personnel on the roster, where the head coach is on all of that.
13:20The quarterback's going to be there. Justin Herbert's going to be the quarterback of the team.
13:24So, to me, I would probably want McDaniel to get another year after this and not leave for head coaching jobs.
13:30I'd want it to be good enough for that, but not so good that he leaves and maybe get a chance this offseason.
13:37Maybe there is some of that urgency to spend and add to it.
13:40And you mentioned that Jim Harbaugh and the way that he – what he's adding as a head coach, you rely on the coordinators.
13:47His brother's the same way. I mean, that's – it was always the case in Baltimore is that when they had the
13:53coordinators that were real difference makers, they were a great team.
13:56And when they haven't is when they've faltered a little bit.
13:59And that – Jim, the Harbaugh's deserve credit for the choices they make at those positions.
14:04It's part of being a head coach. But we've talked a lot about the offense.
14:08The Chargers finished 26th in EPA dropback allowed on defense in that game against Arizona.
14:12And so when you're looking back at – there's a chance.
14:15This is the worst-case scenario, and I'm not trying to fast-forward us here one week into the season.
14:21But there is a realistic chance that we get to the end of this year.
14:25The Chargers are a 500-ish team. The offense doesn't come together the way that you hope.
14:29And the defense takes a significant step back. And we're sitting there at the end of this year and wondering, is the
14:36reason that the Chargers were a playoff team in their first couple years of Jim Harbaugh actually a product of how good
14:42Jesse Minter was as a defensive coach over the other systemic considerations that still exist in that building?
14:47Again, that's a really pessimistic read. But when you watch what happened in week one, I don't think it's unreasonable to start going down that path.
14:54We've got to think about it. I mean, look, it's a week-to-week thing, and you have to analyze the week.
15:00This is the evidence that we have. I'm positive it's going to get better than that.
15:04I think one thing that happens in these first games is you get a whole offseason of narratives built up without resistance.
15:11And then you realize that a lot of these games are close anyway.
15:14You know, Seattle's going to play Arizona this week.
15:17Well, down there in Arizona last week, they won by three points.
15:20It wasn't like they're just, oh, this is the Super Bowl team.
15:23You know, you're going to have these types of games.
15:26I think we're going to talk about the Rams.
15:29Like, the focus of San Francisco coming into that game is different because of what everyone's saying about the Rams.
15:34So I think some of these things get checked.
15:37Some things get checked in week one. I want to – let's get to the Rams because I think that's exactly right,
15:43where you're talking about the narratives that are allowed to just be unchecked over the course of the entire summer.
15:49And I said this today. We did a segment on The Athletic Show, and I was just talking about the idea of super teams in the NFL.
15:56And I landed on something that I really do believe.
15:59And it's like when you get talked about in the way that the Rams did this offseason, you put yourself in a
16:06position where every single week, especially in week one, you have to play against the team on the other side of the ball and the expectations.
16:13You have to play against both of them. The team on the other side of the ball is good as shit.
16:19They have Kyle Shanahan. That's enough. Playing against them is hard enough halfway across the world, let alone when you've set yourself
16:25up with this sort of conversation about your team over the course of the entire summer.
16:30And it felt like – I don't want to read too much into it again.
16:34It's week one. It's a 15-hour flight, all that shit.
16:37But they looked like a team that had been carrying that all summer.
16:40Did you see McVay do his Zoom availability two days ago?
16:43That man looks like he hasn't slept for like 10 days.
16:46I'm like, how did he get to week 18 already, you know?
16:50And you also talked about this in your column.
16:52You were talking to coaches about it. Like when you get billed as this sort of team, it just comes with a
16:59different sort of weight that doesn't do you any sort of favors.
17:02Yeah. So, you know, the fact that now everything's kind of reset, Miles Garrett's out for a while, maybe there's a little
17:08bit of a realistic reset and maybe the expectations come down a little.
17:12But you can't tell me that didn't go into that game.
17:15And the 49ers are a tough matchup for them anyway.
17:18They beat them anyway. You know, and so there's really – you know, I wasn't trying to rain on Rams before the
17:24season, but you have to be realistic in the fact that a couple things.
17:28Number one, when Aaron Donald comes back, they're going to get the worst season of his career.
17:33And it may be better than anyone else on their team.
17:36It may be really good, but they're not getting prime Aaron Donald, right?
17:39And is he going to be playing every week?
17:42Is he going to be healthy? We don't know.
17:45We don't know how that's going to go. Miles Garrett, to me, that's red flags.
17:49When you have this type of a situation where he's talking about after the game, well, I wasn't physically where I needed
17:55to be, and now I need to do what I need to do to get back, and I'm going to have surgery.
18:01That's a quick pivot from all the hype and stuff before the season that makes me wonder, is everyone on the same
18:07page there about what his health was? And now is this hurting anything in terms of the relationship going forward?
18:13It's early. It's one game. But he's going to be out a while now.
18:17There's a lot to manage with this team, with a lot of new faces and guys making a lot of money.
18:23You would have good perspective on this. I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'm curious.
18:28As somebody who's covered the league for a long time now, is there any situation that you feel is analogous to this
18:34one, just in the way that we were talking about this team coming into the season?
18:39People have used the Dream Team Eagles as an example of this, and that's the easiest one to go to, but that's
18:45honestly one that one soundbite at a press conference, I think, allowed that to snowball in a different way.
18:51This was everyone. Every single person that had a microphone was talking seemingly about how great the Rams were going to be.
18:57In my decade and a half that I've done this, I can't remember a team that was talked about like this heading into the season.
19:04And even in the moment when we were talking about them, that left me uneasy.
19:08Like, I just think that it's so hard to win and you need so many things to go your way, including intangible
19:14things, that this can only be a bad thing when you are discussed this way.
19:19And I'm curious if you can remember any other team that had a similar sort of narrative about them coming into the year.
19:25Well, I would say when I think of a team like that, and I can't remember the exact narrative, but remember how
19:31great the 2007 Patriots were, you know, and they lost the Super Bowl.
19:35But I would imagine then Tom Brady got hurt the next year, right?
19:39Early for the first game, right? Didn't Brady hurt the next year?
19:42So, you know, and that affects your whole season.
19:44But that's a little bit analogous to me in that that's one of the greatest teams ever.
19:49Obviously stumbled at the end of the season. But, you know, I went into the season going, you know, they're a Stafford
19:55tight back away, you know, from it being a totally different year.
19:59And that's very plausible to happen. So let's just not...
20:02I really went back and forth in my mind.
20:04Like they had us pick the season, before the season picked the Super Bowl teams, you know, everyone on the staff did that.
20:11And I actually had the Rams written in. I was like, you know, it just doesn't usually go that way.
20:16And I put Seattle in, of course, they lost Darnold.
20:19But I feel pretty good about it. I feel fine about it.
20:23And when I polled the executives, you know, before the year, hey, rank your teams one to 16, there was an outlier guy who did the Bears.
20:30Just like, hey, I said, what are you talking about?
20:33You know, I know they're going to regress some, the Rams, this and that.
20:37But it's like, it never goes how you think it's going to go.
20:41No. You know, I see them as having... I see Chicago's having a really great head coach and a really good up-and-coming quarterback.
20:47I'll bet on that, you know, rather than just taking the chalk.
20:50So, you know, let's just see how it goes.
20:53I'm sure the Rams are going to be good.
20:56But man, they didn't look good. I picked them to win the Super Bowl in part because it's easy to pick the Rams.
21:02The Rams and the Ravens are the two highest over-under win totals.
21:05It's like, ah, whatever. And because I'm very much in the same boat when it comes to predictions of any kind, where
21:12it's like, I have no idea how the season is going to go.
21:15Truly no idea. That's what I come in with every single year.
21:19But it's different. Picking the Rams to win the Super Bowl is different than talking about them like they're the greatest team that's ever been assembled.
21:26You can be an 11-6 Super Bowl team. Like, that is something that can happen.
21:30You could be a 12-5 Super Bowl team. Again, their over-under win total was 11-1.5.
21:35So even if you went over, there's still five losses as part of that.
21:38And so I just think that some of the framing was unrealistic.
21:42And I also think the 2007 Patriots is a great example of this.
21:46And I would, the idea of a super team in the NFL, right?
21:49Like having a truly dominant team. If you look at the past two Super Bowl winners, by the end of those seasons, those were dominant teams.
21:57Like the Seahawks were a fantastic Super Bowl winner when you look at it top to bottom.
22:01The Eagles, by the end of that season in 24, were a really complete team.
22:06But I just go back to all of the things, and even the 2007 Patriots are like this a little bit.
22:11The things that have to fall into place that you don't expect and that happen over the course of the year, that's how those teams come to exist.
22:19It's not in March and April. And the way that we talk about them because they made one move, the Eagles are
22:26such a good example where you come into the year and they're threading a needle with their defensive personnel specifically.
22:31Like you drafted Quenya Mitchell and Cooper Dejean in that draft.
22:34They both need to come in and be good players for that defense to become what it was.
22:39And that's exactly what happened. Last year in Seattle, we have no idea what Darnold is going to be.
22:45We have no idea what Clint Kubiak is going to be.
22:48And their rookie class had to come in and really fall into place for that team to become who they were over the course of the year.
22:55The Patriots in 2007, even after trading for Randy Moss, you can play the game of, oh man, it's Randy Moss and Tom Brady.
23:02No one knew how they were going to play that season.
23:05Like they revolutionized professional football with the amount of 11 personnel they were using, with Wes Walker in the slot, with the
23:12amount of shotgun that they were using. Again, it's something where the personnel was part of it, but they snuck up on
23:18you in all of these different ways over the course of the year.
23:21And so that's typically how these great teams come to be.
23:25It builds over the course of the season. And by the end of that year, the Patriots had to wear that sort of burden.
23:31They had to carry it when they were undefeated in December, but it wasn't something in week one where everyone expected them to be a 17 win team.
23:39That just, that would be revisionist history to talk about them that way.
23:43Well, to me, the greatest example is the Rams, but back the Kurt Warner Rams.
23:47Remember they were Duke and they had put together one of the greatest teams ever that year, you know?
23:52And you're like, how does that, no one predicted that.
23:55That's an extreme way. But I think, I think what it gets at is the league has changed, you know, since, you
24:02know, back when I was a kid, which was longer ago than for some other people, but like there wasn't a salary cap in these things.
24:09Teams stayed together. If you look at those great 49er teams, Bill Welch, they had the same players a lot of the time.
24:15The Seahawks roster is completely different from two years ago and it might be completely different two years from now.
24:21You know, it's just a lot more volatility in the league now.
24:24They play more playoff games, right? More teams are getting in.
24:27I think that also opens things up to surprises and teams getting hot and someone, nowadays, if you have a weakness by
24:34the end of the season, it'll be exposed before you get to the Super Bowl usually, you know?
24:39You can't just overcome it because you're so much more talented usually.
24:42That doesn't happen. And I think it's, there's not those sort of talent gaps.
24:46And, you know, there are teams that are trying to push those sorts of gaps.
24:50The way that the Eagles spend money, the way that the Rams have built this roster, they're trying to accrue as much
24:57talent as you possibly can in the modern era.
24:59Fine. I mean, that's, you are creating a talent advantage for yourself.
25:02But even in that sort of world, you're still going to have vulnerabilities and weaknesses because by definition, you have to in
25:09a salary cap, even if you're manipulating that salary cap.
25:11And the other thing, and I think this is right, I think the level of coaching is so good around the NFL
25:18right now that if you expose even a small vulnerability about who you are, so many of these guys are going to be able to pick at it.
25:26The Rams exist in a division with Kyle Shanahan and Mike McDonald.
25:29That's enough. If there is one thing that you do not do well on either side of the ball, they were probably
25:35going to be able to find it. And so, just the entire discussion around them coming into the year, it just to
25:41me is misguided about how we talk about teams, period.
25:44Isn't it funny? NFC West, they're the only team that's not 1-0.
25:48The Cardinals are even. But that's a perfect example.
25:50Like the idea that the Cardinals have reset their staff and now you look at what they were doing on offense and
25:56now you have a certain level of quality with that roster which isn't as bad as people were making it out to be coming into the season.
26:04Sure. There are so, I think there is so much collective competence around the NFL that the idea that any team, no
26:10matter how talented, is just going to be able to come in and run roughshod over the rest of the league to
26:16me is just, is a very silly proposition. Yep.
26:19But check back in December, a team might develop into that, right?
26:22Yes. I think that's what we're getting at. That can happen.
26:25And that has happened. But the other side of it where it's just a foregone conclusion, that doesn't happen.
26:31Yeah. Is there anything about the Rams as you think about that performance that you're most, you have the most faith in them course correcting?
26:38Is there anything that you feel like is kind of a lingering concern that you have coming out of that game?
26:44Well, I have the ultimate faith offensively in Sean McVay and Matthew Stafford and those guys.
26:48I mean, I think that they're going to have a good offense and I think you take that to the bank.
26:54Obviously, Stafford gets hurt at changes, but that's true with most of the teams that are starting quarterbacks.
26:59So I feel great about that. Defensively, I think there's going to be talent as the season goes along, but, you know, I'm less sure.
27:06And then the thing I wrote about before the season was they lost to Seattle because of special teams.
27:12And when you're losing 27-7 and all of that, the special teams usually aren't going to be the lever on that.
27:18But, you know, Miles Garrett, Aaron Donald aren't going to be on those, you know, coverage teams.
27:22And that's what really has given them, gave them an issue.
27:26That was really the main reason they lost to Seattle last season.
27:29And that was my unanswered question for them. Hired Bubba Ventrone.
27:32I think he's good. But we'll see that over the course of the season too because they're going to be in close
27:38games with the Seattles of the world. And those guys really are committed in that area to a degree that the Rams aren't.
27:45We're going to dig into that at the end of the show because I really want to sit with that story that
27:51you did and the project that you were working on all summer.
27:54The Aaron Donald part of this is funny because I think some people as they were looking at this roster coming into
28:00the season were like, oh man, Aaron Donald, it's a luxury that they don't even need.
28:05And then you look at the way they were getting moved around on the ground in that game against the Niners, it's
28:11like, maybe they do need Aaron Donald. It's like, maybe Aaron Donald is a necessary component of this in a way that
28:17we weren't playing against 21 personnel at this stage of his life.
28:21I think he's probably envisioning some great pass rush sets down the stretch in the Super Bowl, but it's a tough season in this division too.
28:28Seattle and the 49ers are going to run it at Aaron Donald.
28:32Yeah, I think again, they're going to get challenged over the course of the entire year and if Arizona isn't an easy
28:38out, that becomes six games where you really have to bring it and so far they're 0 for 1.
28:43All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about our first impressions with a couple of these other teams.
28:50All right, so let's stick in the NFC and let's stick in the Sean McVay coaching tree world and you wanted to
28:56talk about the Green Bay Packers and your first impressions of the Green Bay Packers from that game.
29:01Why did you want to dig into the Packers after what you saw from them in week one?
29:07Because the things that doom them are such the hot button things.
29:10You know, when you spend the whole offseason talking about how we have to finish and we know their offensive line has to be improved this year.
29:18Now, you play Minnesota, it's probably the worst team they could play coming out of the gates.
29:22I mean, that's tough, but I just feel like how do you have credibility coaching-wise when you go from leading by 12
29:29points to losing by 17 when we've been talking about finish?
29:32And I think that's been my concern with them.
29:34I think Matt LaFleur is very good with the offense.
29:37I think their offense will rank well probably over the course of the season.
29:41But as far as being the head coach who can pull that stuff together and make the narratives come true in a
29:47division where, by the way, Ben Johnson says, you know what, we're going to try to average 38 a game and he gets 59.
29:54Huge credibility. I mean, this guy, Ben Johnson, has complete credibility.
29:57Dan Campbell, right? I mean, he's had great credibility over the last few years of just like his voice and his leadership and all of that.
30:04And I think Kevin O'Connell to some extent has had that too.
30:08Certainly helps having their defense. And then you have Matt LaFleur who, you know, hasn't, has been there a while, has had
30:14great seasons with Aaron Rodgers, but when it's really mattered to like get over the top, hasn't been able to do it
30:20and now you have this thing blow up in your face against a division rival where you give up a big lead which has been your problem.
30:28I just don't see how that's good and now you go to play the Jets.
30:32I just, like I'm probably of all these teams that lost, that one kind of sat with me as almost as bad as a Charger one.
30:39I think you can look at it two different ways.
30:42I think you can look at it and Packers fans have looked at it this way.
30:47The cascading effect of all the penalties that occur on that drive for you to lose the game when the game should
30:53have been over like four different times. Yeah. That's never going to, that's never going to happen again.
30:58That's like a black swan event in how that unfolded for them to lose that game.
31:02Right? And that's, and I understand that vantage point.
31:05I don't think that's wrong. I think if I were a fan of that team and I were trying to talk myself
31:11into the positive outlook on this, that's exactly where I would go with it.
31:15But I think, like you mentioned, them playing against the Vikings as this version of the Packers in week one is kind
31:21of a worst case scenario for a couple different reasons.
31:24When Matt LaFleur, the way that Jordan Love wants to play, I love and respect.
31:28I, I bring me a quarterback who wants to be as aggressive as Jordan Love consistently is.
31:33And when you look at the numbers that he had in that game, I think Derek said it in real time when
31:39we were watching it, it felt like a 2025 Caleb Williams performance where we had 50% completions, but we've got 12 yards per attempt.
31:46That's what it was. And that is okay. It's okay to have that sort of haymaker passing game in the way that
31:52Jordan Love and the Packers want to when you have an element of your offense that can provide you consistent efficiency.
31:58The ground game was that. As recently as 2024, their ability to run the ball as the jab within their offense gave
32:05them the leeway for the passing game to be more gash or be gashed.
32:09Well, against the Vikings last week, they had 21 carries for 66 yards.
32:12They had a 33% rushing success rate dead last against Minnesota in EPA per rush dead last.
32:17The only team behind that or the team right ahead of them was the Chargers.
32:21And so if you're going to be a Matt LaFleur team that really wants to take your big swings in the passing
32:27game and you're playing against defense that only fuels that feel of the game where again, it's this gash or be gash sort of world.
32:34It's really hard to live in that existence when you can't consistently run the ball.
32:39And so that's what worries me. If they can't consistently run the ball over the course of this season, it really changes
32:45the complexion of what we've come to expect a Matt LaFleur, Jordan Love offense to look like at its best.
32:51And it's almost like it makes it impossible for them to become a tough team with some metal, right, that holds up.
32:57And when you look around the rest of that, I mean, what did the Bears rush for?
33:02291 yards? I know Caleb had 68 scrambling, but still, I mean, they ran it all over the place.
33:07And you know, Dan Campbell wants to do that.
33:09And, you know, we'll see what Minnesota does. But I think they're, I look at them just in the context of the
33:16division and what I perceive their weaknesses to be.
33:18And can they address those and overcome them? And to me, there is a little bit of a toughness, metal, M-E-T-T-L-E gap
33:24that the run game can help solve. But when you don't have it and you end up playing a team that's going
33:31to blitz on whatever 78% of the plays like Minnesota did, you know, it can be, it's going to be hit and miss.
33:37They're going to hit some plays. And they did.
33:40But you're going to have, you're going to have enough misses and lack that consistency.
33:44And oh, by the way, you know, defensively, we'll see what they are over the course of the year.
33:49And then special teams wise was encouraging for some of the day, but has been an issue for them, you know, for a while.
33:56As you talk to people around the league about Matt LaFleur and the Matt LaFleur era in Green Bay, what's kind of
34:02the general conventional wisdom and consensus around how the league thinks about him and his tenure there in Green Bay, especially the last couple of years?
34:10So that if he was available, he'd get a job right away.
34:13Like, I don't think there's any question about that.
34:15I think he's well regarded that way. You know, the criticisms for people that are good and successful are different than they are for guys who've failed.
34:23But I think for him, it's along the lines of, does he care too much about how you win the game?
34:29Your job as a head coach is to pull all these phases together.
34:33And I think sometimes, in some cases, probably, I think of it more with an offensive coach, like, sometimes decisions are made
34:39to try to win the game in ways that, I mean, shoot, you go back to that playoff game years ago when
34:45they had the, whatever, the fourth goal from the eight or something, right?
34:49They're going to win that thing right there with that call, right?
34:52And I think that is a component that probably could be improved upon.
34:56Just, this guy's the head coach of the whole team.
34:59And everything's coordinated and working together. And I don't know that he's transcended that perception that he's still the coach of the offense.
35:05Yeah. And I think it's, it's an interesting argument in the push and pull between defensive-minded head coaches and offensive-minded head coaches
35:11where I think there are a lot of changing dynamics around just archetypally which one, which direction you'd want to go.
35:17I think defense is really making a comeback in the way they have over the last couple years.
35:22I think changes the discussion around the viability of defense first teams and whether they're championship caliber.
35:27The Seahawks are obviously the best possible example of that.
35:30But I hadn't really thought about that where it's, if you're an offensive-minded head coach, is there, are you more prone to
35:36care about some of the style points and the ways that you win these games rather than if you're Bill Belichick it's
35:42just like, I don't give a shit. Right? I can win six to three and as long as, and if that involves
35:49a blocked punt and a special kind of defense it doesn't really matter.
35:52Like, are defensive coaches actually more prone to take that sort of approach that offensive coaches are?
35:57I don't know what the numbers on that would say but it's an interesting idea.
36:01One thing I've learned in trying to lump together offensive and defensive coaches because I did this in the special team study
36:07that I did under the perception that offensive coaches wouldn't care as much about it but it's really sort of coaching tree
36:14based a little bit or like, you know, Sean Payton and Dan Campbell are quote-unquote offensive coaches but they come from Bill
36:20Parcells who, you know, they're going to care about that more, right?
36:23The defense special teams component, you can feel that.
36:26Darren Rizzi super empowered as a special teams coach in New Orleans under Payton now in Denver.
36:31Look at what happened when Aaron Glenn left Detroit for the Jets.
36:34What's the one thing the Jets were good at last year?
36:37Special teams, right? It's like it matters to these guys.
36:40That's what they care about. Some of these other guys like Sean McVay admitted it, you know, he's not, he kind of
36:46wishes it was, they don't always, some of those guys wish they didn't have to deal with it.
36:51Like they just do the calling of the game and that type of a thing so you can't fake what, brings you
36:57joy in your job and so if it's not going to be that that does it then you've got to be super
37:04good in the other areas to overcome it and, you know, Sean McVay is like we're doing it.
37:09You know, we're committing in this way and that way and, you know, we'll see.
37:13He's got to, you got to make it hit but I think it's a lot easier to do when you actually believe that.
37:19You know, and so Mike McDonald comes in and they've got teamers on that Seattle team and it infuses your roster with
37:26a toughness and like an abandoned hair on fire guys, right?
37:29That's what people, that's what fires up your team on the sideline.
37:32You know, I was at the Combine last year and somebody had come out of a meeting on concussions and stuff and
37:38they're like, we just watched the concussion reel. It was all Seattle special teams just blowing everybody up.
37:43It was like, you know, that doesn't just happen by accident, right?
37:47It has to add her to you and so that would be the thing with some of these coaches that are super into the play calling component.
37:54You know, I would put Shanahan in there to a degree, LeFleur in there, you know, McVay, you know, those guys more
38:01than I'd put Sean Payton as offensive coach or Dan Campbell.
38:04Let's get to Sean Payton's team and what they looked like on Monday night against the Chiefs.
38:09I wanted to start this conversation about the Broncos and about the start of their year just with whatever conversations and discussions
38:15you had with people around the league about the Davis Webb thing this offseason.
38:19It's something that I didn't really ask around about and I'm just curious if you did just why that might have happened,
38:25what it might mean, what it says about just the overall dynamics in that building.
38:29Like before we get to the veracity of the choice, I'm curious about whether you've talked to people about the motivation behind the choice.
38:36Oh yeah. So I think I might have misread it early.
38:39You know, when I saw that happen, and remember, my roots of covering the league go back.
38:44I spent a lot of years covering the Seahawks when Mike Holmgren was the coach.
38:48And I know these guys, the offensive coaches like that, they always talk about how they're going to give up play calling and they never do it.
38:56Like those guys like, they can't. Like you said, it's so central to their identity.
39:00I think that's why it's so difficult to let go of.
39:03Yes, it's why they're there. And so when that happened, Sean Payton had not signed his contract yet.
39:08He didn't have a new contract. You're hearing a lot of things about like, hey, they really like George Payton there.
39:14And I'm like, what's it? These guys had left Sean's staff and I was like, what's going on here?
39:19It's like, is he getting his wings clipped here?
39:22That's what I kind of my impression from afar.
39:24I don't think that was the case. Like, I don't think ownership went to him and said, stop calling plays.
39:30I do believe, just from talking to folks, that, you know, they like Davis Webb and Sean values him and he wanted to keep him.
39:37And he's losing other guys, Jim Leonard and, you know, some other guys have left.
39:41And so he, you know, wanted to have him there.
39:44But to me, that's a short-lived situation because how is Sean Payton, you know you're going to have ups and downs in the season.
39:51How are you going to let any time go by with offense struggling and not take it over?
39:56Like, to me, that's just going to happen at some point unless they just hit on all cylinders, which I don't think they did the other night.
40:04And so if I'm the ownership there, I'm like, okay, Sean, you know, we didn't hire you for your defense or, you
40:10know, the way you run the team meeting. I mean, that's all nice, but, you know, your hands on the quarterback here, right?
40:16And let's give us a competitive advantage. We're playing Andy Reid.
40:19Clint Kubiak's pretty darn good. I mean, they came in there and looked decent.
40:23Can we get that competitive edge from you? So I see it being taken over by Sean Payton at some point during
40:30the year, and I don't anymore really see it as that he gave it up under pressure or anything like that.
40:36Yeah, it's, I'm trying to figure out how to fully process it just because even when we talked about it in real
40:42time, we were discussing the Davis Webb performance compared to some of the other first-time play callers, and to me, it's a
40:48little bit different just in that the fact that the game planning process probably has enough carryover from what it looked like under Payton because Payton's still there.
40:56Davis Webb was part of that process. I give them a little bit less grace than I would give other first-year staffs
41:02just because if you are coming in there from day one, the language is different.
41:06You're troubleshooting that game planning process for the first time.
41:09So many things are just completely fresh and new where with them, there's enough carryover where in my mind, it just shouldn't look like that.
41:16But at the same time, he still is a first-time play caller.
41:20And so I've struggled with figuring out exactly where I want to land between those two poles.
41:24I think it's got to be a hard thing.
41:27It's going to be a hard role when you're under a legendary guy who, let's face it, Sean Payton's super fiery during the game.
41:34You know, he's going to be all over guys.
41:36You know, that's just his style. It's out of the Parcells school.
41:40Well, and now you're coming in and you lose 31 to 10 at Kansas City.
41:44And by the way, you look at their schedule.
41:46Jacksonville, Rams, 49ers, Chargers, maybe that's easier. But Seattle, Arizona, Kansas City, you know, I could see Sean Payton like they go
41:53Carolina then and they have their bye. I'll be kind of a little bit surprised if Sean Payton isn't calling the plays
41:59when they play the Raiders in week 11 with a much easier stretch from there to finish the year.
42:04We're going to talk about the Broncos as one of our games of the week on the preview show this week.
42:10And I have not gone back and rewatched the offense.
42:13I'm curious to do it. Just what exactly were some of the issues that they were dealing with?
42:18But just looking at the numbers from a bird's eye view, there's a through line here in the teams that we've talked about.
42:24I mentioned that the Packers finished 32nd in EPA per rush in week one.
42:28The Chargers finished 31st. The Broncos were 29th. So three of these four teams that we're discussing that were disappointing in week
42:35one compared to their preseason expectations in terms of value generated when they were trying to run the ball in these games.
42:41They were three of the worst teams in the league in week one in totality, which to me is not an accident.
42:47And you compare that to teams that were better than we might have expected or the way that the Chiefs looked.
42:53The Chiefs were number one on that list and the Broncos were number 29.
42:57And when you go back and you watch that game, you feel that difference.
43:01So what was the big, so the big trend that we were talking about coming out of this week was it was the highest under center shotgun rate.
43:09You know, that had been under center rate in the league.
43:12I looked at early downs and it was it was the first week since 2017 that half of the early down plays on offense were from under center.
43:20You know, and so when I was looking at this and I need to adjust for some other things because I think
43:26I need to take out some late game type of stuff where you might be doing that just to run it out the clock.
43:33But the top 10 teams in under center rate on early downs were 10 and 0.
43:37And it was like it wasn't like all the great teams like the Raiders were in there.
43:42You know, there was there was a lot of teams like the the Giants or the Giants might have been in there.
43:48You know, there was just teams in there that you weren't going to necessarily predict to win that one doing that and had that type of production.
43:56So, again, I think it's normal for it might be normal for six or seven of those teams to win because you're
44:02going to be doing that if you're winning probably more.
44:05And so I'm going to look at that a little bit more nuanced.
44:09But that's really stood out to me versus some of these other teams that were, you know, shotgun more and didn't have
44:15the run game and it was struggle. It's it's funny because you said this idea of what type of team you want to be.
44:22Do you want to be a team that's physical?
44:24Do you believe in that? Is it just lip service?
44:27Like what you work on and some of the structural choices you make can feed into the type of team you feel like.
44:33And the fact that these under center teams really showed us this, the chief specifically, like we're going to be about it like that.
44:40That's who we're going to be. We are going to line up that way and we're going to run the ball down your throat.
44:47I do think that that has a carryover effect to just the way your team feels overall.
44:52And when you compare that to a team like the Broncos, who, again, the chiefs in that in their game, I'm curious
44:58what early down rates were, but the Broncos finished 31st last week in the percentage of under center snaps that they had.
45:04They were 31st. The Chargers were 29th. Yep. And so, again, it's just like these and the Chargers are obviously a unique
45:10case like they used a lot, a decent amount of pistol.
45:13It's going to be a different sort of approach with with McDaniel.
45:17But yeah, the return to under center football is interesting.
45:20Here were the 10 teams, the top 10, I just call it up.
45:23Vegas, Detroit, which barely won. Jaguars, Jets, Ravens, 49ers, Bills, barely won.
45:27Vikings, I don't know that they had the, you know, you're going to repeat that a lot, but the Bears and Seattle.
45:33And the bottom teams for Tennessee, okay, maybe they're trailing, but I'll look at it for early in the game.
45:39Denver, Miami, Dallas, Chargers, Houston, Washington, those were the lower teams.
45:42Saints, you know, maybe they're a team that needs to do a little more.
45:46So, look, fun with numbers after week one. You know, we're not doing huge trend stories after week one, but I think
45:52those are just some things to keep our eye on because as we've talked about for so many years, you know, you
45:58have to convince the defense somehow that the run is a threat.
46:01You have to. And so for a lot of years, you could just do that by saying, hey, it's first and second down.
46:08You guys are going to play the run, right?
46:10And it's like, okay, yep, we're going to do that.
46:13Every coach after practice, every defensive coordinator, we've got to stop the run.
46:17And then people just started passing and hitting all these explosive plays.
46:20Now defenses are like, okay, we're not doing that anymore.
46:23Now what's the offense got to do? Well, maybe to convince them, we actually have to be under center and run it
46:29sometimes and make it part of our identity. The toughest thing is real.
46:33I feel like it's like you go to the gym.
46:36There's different people in the free weight section than in the machine section, right?
46:40I mean, if you had to go pick a fight in one of those sections, where are you going?
46:45I'm going to the cardio equipment first and foremost.
46:48The cardio equipment first, right? You're not going over to the guy with four plates on your side.
46:53Yeah, you're not going over, but you're not going over with the guy with four plates doing the deadlift, you know, like that's a different ethos.
47:00And I think the running game gives you some of that.
47:03No, I totally agree. And even if we're not doing trend stories about the overall quality and returns on this, like we're
47:09joking going under center is not a magic wand where you suddenly become a better football team by doing it.
47:15Like that's, that's a silly way to frame this, but I do think the commitment to it as an idea, that's a
47:21trend that's worth picking up on after one game.
47:24Like that, that's worth it. When we do the things of, oh man, defense is ahead of offense and we do it in week one.
47:31That's not a trend. The structural choices you've made to this degree leaning this far into it.
47:36That is a trend that I think we can already start talking about because that's undeniably real.
47:40And the greatest, the greatest reference to this is just the last few years what the Rams did with Stafford when Matthew
47:47Stafford got there, Sean McVay was so happy, leaned into drop back, shotgun, all this stuff.
47:51And, you know, it worked great until it sort of became diminishing returns.
47:55What do you do? Got back to the run game.
47:58Now he's the MVP. So there is something to it.
48:00Yeah, there's no doubt. Look at Rodgers. When Rodgers, Rodgers was kind of diminishing a little bit under McCarthy.
48:06His production was down and then LeFleur comes in and puts him under center with a, you know, play action and stuff.
48:12Rodgers wins two MVPs. So it can really help.
48:15All right, let's take one more quick break and then I want to come back and chat about that special team story.
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48:41All right, let's dig into this special teams project that you were working on over the course of the summer just to
48:48take people behind the curtain a little bit. When we're at training camps, you know, you're kind of hanging out on the
48:54sideline and you're waiting for practice to end and then you're talking to people after they come off and, you know, it's
49:00in the best case scenario, you can sit down, have a real conversation with somebody, but it's very informal, which is kind of something that happens in passing.
49:08The first time I saw you on this trip, we're in Houston and we're in the indoor facility and I just talked
49:14to Kamari Laster and you're sitting over in the corner with one of the coaches and you literally have your laptop out
49:20and you're showing the coach a presentation that you've created about this thing that you're chipping away at and this is what
49:27you were doing throughout all of training camp is going to these stops and talking to people about this thing that you've
49:33been working on and this idea that you have and I just want to talk people a little bit through the methodology
49:39behind what initially got you interested in this, what the idea is and how you started chipping away at it.
49:45Well, usually there's something that kind of occupies me, a rabbit hole for the offseason and this one on special teams really hit me two ways.
49:52One was McVay fired his special teams coach with the Rams during the season.
49:56I was like, wait a minute, he's had like six of these guys.
50:00Here's Sean McVay, one of the best coaches in the league and this has been a problem area.
50:05Systemic issues here, right? And then when Rich Pisacci quit the job at the Packers, he had time on his contract, like
50:11that's very unusual and I thought, well, shoot, they've had lots of issues even before Le Fleur where you can find all these special teams plays.
50:18There's something systemic about that component of it. What is it?
50:21And so then I went to the combine and just met, there's no presentations going at this point because I'm trying to
50:27learn and so I sat down with coaches and front office people just asked them like, how do we analyze this?
50:33I'm so tired of the same way that this gets covered which is special teams are bad, they fired the coach, they
50:40have a new special teams coach and now it's going to be good and then it gets bad.
50:45We care about it now because we hired a guy that you've heard of as a special teams coordinator.
50:50Now we really care about it now. We mean it this time.
50:53So I'm like, what goes in? Like, how do you know are some of these guys, some people just doomed going into the year?
51:00You know, it's kind of like we know on offense if you're going to work with a really bad quarterback that year,
51:06that coordinator's probably going to get fired. Do the special teams coaches know that too?
51:11Like when you go to the Rams or the Packers, are you doomed?
51:14And to some extent, yes, they do know that.
51:17And so I learned about what to look for on the game day roster, like how it's configured to help or hurt special teams.
51:24One thing we can't look up statistically, how much time do these coaches get in practice, right?
51:28And for the special teams coaches, you probably can never give them enough.
51:32There's a balance here. But some systems, like one of the things that was said to me was, hey, if you're in
51:38a, if you're in a Shanahan tree, you get less time in practice.
51:42But some of those Shanahan guys are getting good players in, in to work with in special teams like Houston.
51:48You mentioned that. Nick Casario comes from New England.
51:50He's the GM of Houston and he's going to get them players.
51:54So they're going to be pretty good on special teams there.
51:57And even for Kyle Shanahan, they got Brant Boyer last year as their coordinator and it looked pretty good.
52:02It got, it got better for them with some commitment.
52:05So I really wanted to know Rams and Packers, what is it?
52:08And so in being able to study those game day rosters, I was able to put together kind of some visuals that were really pretty hard hitting.
52:16And then I took those around to a few coaches here and there and just, what do you think of this?
52:22Am I on the right track? And they were like, yes, yes, nodding.
52:25Yes, yes, nodding. And so then usually when you talk to somebody like that, they're going to have two or three things you didn't think of.
52:33You know, everybody does. What about this? What about that?
52:36The best part about working on stuff like this is when you get sent off on like three other little chases that
52:42you can do because somebody's lit up a part of your brain.
52:45So by the time I was in training camps in August, you know, then I actually had a pretty good presentation that
52:51had come together and that doing the presentation helps my mind.
52:54Like, until you can teach something, you can't, you don't really have a mastery of it, right?
52:59So not that I'm teaching teams anything. It's more of like harnessing the knowledge to do it.
53:04But I would have to be able to teach somebody who didn't know anything about this and they would come out of
53:10it going, wow, that's, I didn't realize that. And that's kind of what it got to before writing the story that you
53:16were talking about that I was pretty pleased with because, let's face it, not everybody cares that much about special teams, even the head coaches.
53:24So like, how can you make this interesting? And I think we did.
53:27The anecdote that really jumped out to me and there's plenty of them in the story that are really telling was that
53:33I think it was a coach that was on one of the staffs had relayed to you that when the Rams and
53:40Saints had joint practices last year, I want to say it was, they literally didn't have a special teams period as part of the practice.
53:47It really does jump out. And so I'm curious, what does this actually look like when you dug into the numbers?
53:53Like, what are the most important gaps? You mentioned game day rosters and we can talk about some of the nuances with that.
53:59But when you look at the teams that are committed to this and the teams that are not, where do those biggest,
54:05where do the biggest gaps there exist? And statistically, numerically, what do those gaps look like in the areas that you were talking about?
54:12Well, how much, how much input does a special teams coach have on the final roster?
54:17So one of the things I learned was like when Bill Belichick, who entered the league as a special teams coach way
54:23back in the 70s, he would let his special teams coach, he'd say, hey, besides the kicker, besides the punter, besides the
54:29snapper, you got two, three guys you want to have on this roster?
54:33Tell me who they are. That does not happen typically, you know, in a lot of places.
54:37And so that gave the special teams coach in New England a lot of investment, right?
54:42Hey, we gave you your guys. You better be good.
54:45But it also, those were really his guys. So you have a Matthew Slater, right?
54:49You have a, you know, you can name two or three guys over the years.
54:53Ebner, right? Nate Ebner, those types of guys that were just mainstays on their special teams that give you an advantage over
54:59the team that is sending out a bunch of rookies out there just because they happen to be the backups, right?
55:05And those guys are going to get their, you know, their asses kicked by real trained killer special teamers.
55:11We all saw that Washington Commanders play, right? The guy's running down the field.
55:15He's taking out, it looked like it was AI.
55:17He's taking out three guys here, two guys here and plants the guy.
55:21And I'll tell you, when I went to one of the teams and was talking about this, I was like, Washington, not,
55:27they didn't have the big game day commitment with their roster, but they were real good.
55:32Well, they had really good players. The coach actually in his office put on the film and he showed me Washington.
55:38I think it was Washington against like the Raiders really last year.
55:41And they're just killing the Raiders guys out there.
55:43That's a huge difference and everyone sees that in film.
55:46The team sees that. The team knows if we're serious or not.
55:50If we're getting our asses kicked out there, everyone else is going to, you know, the fans are going to get a
55:56drink during the punt return or whatever, right? No, this stuff tells you who you are.
56:00So it's not any one thing that guarantees you're good.
56:03It's not just having a good coach. It's not just having some kick-ass guys that the special teams coach got to pick.
56:09It's not just having your roster configured on game day.
56:12You can have any one of those things in a good place and not still not be good.
56:17But if you can get enough of them in a good place, you can win games.
56:22When the margins shrink in playoffs and suddenly you're playing a Seattle type of a team, there could be a touchdown difference on special teams, which is huge.
56:30What do you think is the most important, the way the teams construct the players who are on those units?
56:35What do you think is the most important consideration there?
56:38Is it about using starters there? Is it about making sure that you have three or four players that are specifically designed
56:44to be a part of that, where special teams are their strength?
56:48Like, what is the proper configuration? It's that part.
56:50I used to, I kind of came into this thinking, well, if we have starters out there, we're committed.
56:56And I think that could be the case if you think of like the Pete Carroll Seahawks years.
57:01They had some, Earl Thomas and sure, some of these guys were actually playing out there on special teams.
57:06Okay, if those guys are really invested in it, great.
57:09But what happens is you use starters who would rather not do it, right?
57:13They're already tired and taking bumps and bruises. They don't necessarily want to go out there and risk an injury.
57:19At the same time, you don't want necessarily just some rookie out there who's never played on special teams either and doesn't know how to do it.
57:26So if you can get two or three of those core guys and we know who they are, when you look at
57:32Seattle, it's Brady Russell's of the world, right? Some of these guys, I think that's probably the starting point because if you
57:39do that, that's going to solve for some of the other things.
57:42That means we're committed. That means our head coach cares about it.
57:45Our GM cares about it because otherwise those guys aren't going to be on the team, right?
57:50So to me, that's probably the number one thing that reflects on other things and other aspects and it's hard to really,
57:56you don't really know going into the season unless you know who those players are, right?
58:01So some of the ways I looked at that was like, hey, how many career special team snaps do you even have?
58:07Because if you have a lot of them, then you've kind of been vetted as a player in that phase.
58:13And so that can be it. But then you see a team like last year, Tennessee was really good on special teams with no experience.
58:20Well, that could be a bad team where the special teams coach gets to pick from anyone he wants on game day.
58:26So maybe that helped him be good, right? Whereas in Seattle, maybe there's only 13 guys you can choose from, right?
58:32So you can have a big commitment footprint, but it may not be the players the special teams coach wanted.
58:38So lots of nuance here, but interesting. I mean, well, you talk about Tennessee last year.
58:42Tennessee last year, and then in the story you were talking about this, a picture of John Fossil came up on the
58:48presentation and McVay was like wistful about his days with John Fossil, who is currently the special teams coordinator in Tennessee.
58:54So I think Sean's reaction to that and the quality of the Tennessee special teams last season, probably not an accident.
59:00One thing I appreciate about McVay is that type of candor.
59:03Like, you know, he will say, I've got to do better.
59:06Like, he's honest about it. Like, he appreciated, you know, I came in there, the special teams presentation for him was the same as for the other guys.
59:14It was like, hey, it was kind of Rams-centric.
59:17You know, the Rams fell. They were at a minus 27 EPA differential against Seattle last year in special teams across three games.
59:23I didn't soften that for McVay. And for everyone else, it was a systemic consideration.
59:28For Sean, it was, I'm about to tell you where you've failed over the last decade.
59:32I'm going to show you in very plain terms.
59:35In fairness to him, it's mostly the last couple, three years.
59:38You know, they were more committed before that. But yeah, it starts at the top, right?
59:42And their roster too, that's a little bit of a probably, hey, when you're so top-heavy on your roster with a bunch
59:48of young guys, you know, those young guys, maybe you're drafting those young guys to help fill spots on offense defense first.
59:55I loved that because I think that was such a good observation in the piece where you're talking about how, and this
60:01is, this was part of their plan, right? This is part of the vision.
60:05And the draft that always sticks with me is the, I think it was the 2021 draft when they won the Super
60:11Bowl, the Ernest Jones draft where you're drafting guys in the third, fourth, fifth round that end up becoming incredibly important to
60:17your overall team build because you've traded away these first round picks to go get veterans.
60:22And so you need cost control players somewhere and those third, fourth, fifth round picks become starters for you where with some
60:28teams they might be special teams depth. And so just the different layers that you have to consider and how this works,
60:34I thought was so interesting and it, and then hiring Bubba Ventrone specifically, we talked about this in our preview where if
60:40you look at the way, like the area that the Browns had finished in special teams over the last few years, the
60:47Browns special teams have been terrible, but I was talking to a coach this summer who was, had an awareness of like
60:53the way that they operate there and he was like, well, they don't care about that.
60:57They're one of those teams that just doesn't care about that.
61:00So Bubba Ventrone can be a good special teams coordinator who did not do well in Cleveland because for the exact reasons
61:07you're talking about, these are organizational considerations. But in the Indy, they were top.
61:11They were really good at Indy, you know? So yeah, it's completely, I just want to, to me, you and I, we value that nuance.
61:18I just don't want to say this guy sucks, you know, this coach failed.
61:22It's like, that may be the case, but like you got to look, we got, we have other ways of looking into
61:28some of that stuff on offense defense, right? We know if the coverage bare, special teams were like, you know, we don't,
61:34how many, when's the last time we had a real in-depth special team scheme show, you know?
61:39We just don't do it. That'll be the next thing we launch on the athletic football show channel.
61:44We're just going deep on special team scheme. We're going to let Dave handle it.
61:48By Mike Sando, like three listeners, you know, so Mike Sando, always appreciate the time, sir.
61:53Always great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon.
61:56Thank you. All right, guys, that's all we got.
61:59Thank you to Mike for his time. We will be back tomorrow with our week two preview, our first real preview show of the season.
62:06Very excited to dig into a lot of the week two games.
62:09If you have not listened to this episode, this week's episode of building the beast with Dane and Dave strongly suggest you go check that out.
62:17Lot of 2027 quarterback talk. That should be a part of your guys's weekly routine at this point.
62:22If you care at all about the NFL draft, we have obviously having Dane just a very rare resource and very happy
62:28to have that show back on the channel over the course of this year.
62:32For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening.
62:35We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in.
62:38Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.
62:42If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.
62:46We'll see you next time.
