How "all in" is too far all in?
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Jun 8, 2026
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Mon, June 8, 2026
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Episode Transcript
0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays.
0:02It's another Mailbag Monday. Really enjoyed this one. A lot of good questions, a lot of good big picture questions, chatting about
0:08the player movement we've seen this offseason, why we're seeing that, undervalued positions, just a ton of fun stuff with me, Derek
0:14and our producer, Michael Bell, are queuing up the questions.
0:17So let's get to that conversation right now. Time for another Mailbag Monday here on The Athletic Football Show.
0:22Nice collection of questions today. A lot of stuff that was worth chewing on as we were prepping for this thing.
0:28Bell, let's get to it. We got a bunch of them to work through here.
0:32All right. Club 8D gets us going. Club says, looking at the moves the Rams have made to go all in, where
0:38is the line for going all in? Say tomorrow the Rams traded two first round picks for Max Crosby.
0:43Is that mortgaging the future too much? Stafford only has one or two years left.
0:47Shouldn't the Rams have made to go all in?
0:50Rams go full F them picks and cap space and actually go all in?
0:54Go sign some guys to add more depth, move cap into the future to make it work.
0:58Along this line of thinking, what in your mind is the correct level of aggressiveness a team should have when in a window of contention?
1:05What factors play into the calculus? How aggressive should teams like the Ravens, Bills, Bengals, or Cowboys even be?
1:10I also wanted to shout out Witness Gritness, who had a very similar question, but focused specifically on his team, the Detroit
1:16Lions, who I think are a worthy part of this conversation too.
1:19So what do we think here, Robert? I think trading two more first round picks for Max Crosby is going a little bit too much all in.
1:27That's the first thing that I would say. There is a balance here.
1:30And if you look at the Miles Garrett trade, even, I mean, and so the McDuffie trade happens, they trade a first round pick.
1:37They still have one as they're making that trade.
1:39I think that's an important consideration, which, and I want to talk about that a little bit later.
1:44But they only traded away one first round pick to get Miles Garrett.
1:48And so they still have a first round pick in the 2028 draft, 2029 draft, moving forward.
1:52I still think you need to offset the aggressiveness with making sure you still have a decent amount of picks.
1:58And the Rams have actually done a very good job of this.
2:01Even as the Rams traded away all those first round picks over the years, they still made between nine and 10 picks
2:07a year pretty often because they had a bunch of third round picks, a bunch of fourth round picks.
2:12So I think that's a balance that's necessary. I think there are a lot of different considerations here, a lot of questions here.
2:18I think the most important one before I see what Derrik thinks about this, where in the window are you?
2:24Like how in real realistically, where in the window are you?
2:27And with the Rams, they're obviously at the end of one.
2:30You know, by doing this, you're not potentially sacrificing good years of Matthew Stafford's prime.
2:34Matthew Stafford's career is going to be over by the time you're really paying the tax for this.
2:39If you're the Ravens, if you're the Bills, if you're the Bengals, if you trade away multiple first round picks for a
2:45short term push and that short term push doesn't work out, then you're harming your chances of properly competing three or four
2:51years from now when those quarterbacks are still in their prime.
2:54And so if the window is truly closing, push it all in, man.
2:57Who cares? Like if you don't set up Ty Simpson for success, but you have a Super Bowl, I think that's something you can live with.
3:04But knowing you're not giving yourself the best possible chance to win a title three years from now with Josh Allen, I
3:10can understand being a little bit more hesitant about something like that.
3:14And I do think the Rams are in a unique position of being all in like a lot of those teams, the
3:20Bengals, the Ravens, the Cowboys teams that, you know, in theory, if they wanted to do it, they could or you could get why they would do it.
3:27None of them were close last year. Like none of them were close and some of them are now operating with first
3:33year head coaches in the way that the Ravens are, whereas the Rams are kind of always close.
3:38And I think that you can make an argument that they had the best roster in the NFL last year and just,
3:44you know, played a very close series against the eventual Super Bowl champions.
3:48And so I think them being a team that is more willing to do it makes sense.
3:52I think you bring up a really good point, too, with them having the extra first round pick.
3:57And so, yes, they're trading away all these first round picks, but because they had acquired another one, that feels less insane.
4:03And they still have some draft operas to go.
4:06They're also with this version of the team. Some of the financial off ramps are already built in, right?
4:11Like Devontae Adams and Matthew Stafford are only going to be on this team for so long.
4:15Whereas if you are then going and trading a bunch of picks for whether it would have been like a Micah Parsons
4:21type of guy or Max Crosby or whatever, these guys are theoretically like could be on the books for even longer.
4:27And I think that starts to pinch you a little bit.
4:30And so for as much as it feels like the Rams went all in and they definitely are, their future doesn't feel like that strapped.
4:37Like it's definitely, you know, more strapped than whatever your base resources would be.
4:41But it doesn't feel like they've completely cut themselves off.
4:43It's also important with the Rams. They there's a pivot point here.
4:47Like they haven't committed to a lot of their worthwhile extensions.
4:50We talked about this a lot. If you look at the amount of free agents they have hitting the market next year,
4:56it's a lot of guys who are going to get paid.
4:59And so if they want to pivot from being a more kind of top to bottom deeper team like they've been over
5:05the last couple of years because they've hit on so many of these draft picks and they want to be more top
5:11heavy and keep some of these really, really expensive guys and have that be the team build that they chase, they can do that.
5:17Like they are at a place where they can kind of take either road.
5:21And I think that flexibility is one of the reasons they're afforded this opportunity.
5:25I'll say this about two of the teams that Club 8D there from Discord mentioned.
5:29But with both the Bengals and the Cowboys, I think we're seeing the version of all in that those teams are willing to embrace.
5:35Like the Dexter Lawrence trade, that's as all in as the Bengals are going to be.
5:40And I actually commend them for it because even if Joe Burrow is still a relatively young player and you're going to
5:46have Joe Burrow hopefully for the next 10 years as the Bengals quarterback, I also think this version of the team where
5:52the offense has both of those receivers, both of those receivers definitively in their primes, that position is different than it is with quarterback.
5:58You're not going to have Jamar Chase playing at this level for the next 10 years as much as you may want him to be.
6:05And so really trying to maximize this specific window with the offense playing at this sort of level, I completely understand that.
6:11And I commend them for it. Like I think that them making the Dexter Lawrence trade, it's kind of irresponsible in a
6:17way I like seeing the Bengals be. And with Dallas, the Cowboys have had their own version of that sort of offseason.
6:23Like if you look at what Dallas did, I know they traded away Micah Parsons, but then they immediately traded for Quentin Williams.
6:29Like that is an aggressive move. The amount of money the Cowboys have moved around this offseason.
6:34They zeroed out the DAC contract. They zeroed out the CD contract.
6:37They're second in the NFL this year in cash spending.
6:40And that's only because the Texans have given extensions to two edge rushers.
6:43That's why the Texans are up near the top of that list.
6:46Dallas is really doing its version of let's try to get this thing over the finish line.
6:51And so I, again, I do commend both of those teams for being a little bit more aggressive than we've seen in years past.
6:58And if I'm going to criticize them for that, which I absolutely have, I want to give them credit for showing a
7:04little bit more ambition in the way that they have this spring.
7:07And we actually should think about it in the way that you just because we're we started this with the Rams.
7:13Right. And then we're obviously talking about the Bengals.
7:15I think we have to go into those discussions knowing that the ceiling for whatever all in really means is just different for those franchises.
7:22And so we kind of have to do the calculations a little bit differently.
7:26So I think that's a good point. And then again, the Ravens, the Ravens to me, one, because it's, you know, new coaching regime.
7:32I think that that puts you in a tricky spot.
7:35But then they've just got a bunch of contracts that I think are in weird spots.
7:39It's like Lamar's cap hit is insane right now.
7:42Matabike, I think because we don't know his health, it's like a question of what are they going to do with him in the next year or two?
7:49Say Flowers, his cap number is really high right now.
7:52They could get him on like an extension and see how that goes.
7:56Like they've just got they're just in a weird place financially that it's more like what are they going to do with
8:02this next 18 months of team building that I it doesn't feel like they should be a team that goes super all in.
8:08Even though obviously they tried to and, you know, tried to do the Max Crosby thing and it would have been fine.
8:14I think I understand how that ended up getting walked back.
8:17I also just think that if you're a team that wants to be consistently competitive, it's really hard to trade away a
8:23bunch of first round picks and be consistently competitive.
8:25Like the financial element of this in the draft capital element of this are two different conversations to me.
8:30I think teams, if your owners want to spend the money, just keep spending.
8:34Just keep spending. Because even in the worst case scenarios, we've seen what that downturn financially looks like.
8:39It's what the Saints have had to do over the last couple of years.
8:43And while the money aspect of it is bad, it's not that bad.
8:46Like you can dig out of that hole really as quickly as one year if you want to.
8:51The Dolphins are hopefully going to be in that position.
8:54Like they're going to have to eat some of the two a deal next year.
8:58But for the most part, they've taken most of their financial medicine in 2026.
9:02You can get out of that quickly. It's when you start trading away a ton of draft capital that I think that
9:08level of aggressiveness can linger in a bad way.
9:10And so we talked about the Rams offsetting the first round draft pick trades with a lot of mid-round trades.
9:16Other teams have done the same thing. Like the Eagles traded for A.J.
9:19Brown. They had extra first round picks in that draft.
9:22And so I just think if you're going to trade away draft picks and be really aggressive with it, where are you
9:28trying to offset that a little bit to make sure you're making the requisite amount of picks over a multi-year span so
9:34you're not completely depleting your chances of being competitive three, four years from now?
9:38Yeah. And the last thing I'll say, as far as the Rams being, again, a unique case, we can say that they've
9:44been lucky with how many of their second through fifth round picks have hit for them.
9:48But on offense, I don't think it's fully luck, right?
9:51Like, I think because you have McVay and there's such a clear identity and vision for what the offense wants to be,
9:57it makes it easier to find Puka Nakua or Kyron Williams or all these tight ends that they've got.
10:02Or, I mean, you know, some of their offensive linemen are free agent, like lower level free agents that they brought in.
10:08But it's also like Alaric Jackson was an undrafted free agent.
10:11Warren McClendon was a fifth round pick. Like, they just understand guys who can, they don't need to be superstars, but if
10:17we can go pay for the one or two superstars like Matthew Stafford and Devontae Adams, we know how to find contributors
10:23in a way that, again, there's a little bit of draft luck, but it does feel like they are just better at
10:29that and have a clearer vision for that than most other teams.
10:32And it's a really important point because I think Shanahan is also a good example of this where they've been able to skimp on certain positions.
10:39Like, I think about it, one of the points I was going to make here is I don't think you should be
10:45making these sorts of trades, especially with first round picks, if your quarterback situation isn't settled.
10:50One of the reasons the Rams can do this is because they drafted Ty Simpson.
10:54You have to, if you need those first round picks, if you're going to need a quarterback at any point in the next couple years.
11:00And I kind of think the same thing about truly premium positions, right?
11:04Like, trading away a first round picks when you're going to have a needed tackle over the next couple years, that can be dicey.
11:11Well, if you're a team that can get by with a fourth or fifth round pick at offensive tackle because of your
11:16offensive ecosystem, your play caller, your offensive line coach, you're able to be a little bit more aggressive in what you can
11:22do with some of those draft picks. A lot of teams couldn't be competitive with, and Colt McKibbitt's gotten much, much better,
11:28but with that sort of plan at one of your tackle spots, it's hard to do.
11:33And I think both the Rams and the Niners have really shown an ability to make the most out of not huge investments at really important positions.
11:40So you can use those massive assets to be a little bit more aggressive because you can cheap out in ways that
11:46other teams might not be able to. The Eagles can't do that.
11:49The Eagles can't do that offensively. They need stars everywhere.
11:52They need stars everywhere, and their version of fudging it and getting by is what they do with the cap.
11:58Whereas, you know, the Rams do some of that, but it is part of just the way that they can draft on
12:04offense is just a little bit different than some guys.
12:06Let's get to the next one. All right, the next one comes to us from Switch.
12:11You guys have mentioned in previous pods that free agency doesn't really seem to be a way to reliably get good talent
12:17anymore due to teams locking up their best guys ahead of time.
12:20As such, in addition to the draft, you've mentioned that trading premium picks for superstars, or at least star-level talent, would become
12:26more frequent, and we've seen it happen now with guys like Micah Parsons, Dexter Lawrence, Trent McDuffie, and recently Miles Garrett and A.J.
12:32Brown getting dealt for premium picks. Is this an actual trend, or is it simply one of those things that happens irregularly
12:38due to a combination of circumstance and player availability, and we're just seeing a blip in how teams go about their business?
12:44Derek, you're up first on this one. I think both are true.
12:47I will say this cycle was a lot. Getting this many superstar trades in one cycle, and even if you want to
12:53rope in the kind of Max Crosby trade, kind of not actually happening thing, I think there was clearly an appetite for a lot of this.
13:00The part of it that does feel a little bit circumstance-driven, two of these were Rams trades, and we already know that
13:06this is a team that has an appetite for this, even if before we considered that this is potentially a league-wide trend.
13:12They're just a little bit different. And then one of the other ones was A.J.
13:16Brown, where I think we've known that for the last year or so, there's been a lot of contention, there's been all that stuff.
13:23So it does feel a little bit like this year specifically, right place, right time.
13:27And I will say with this draft specifically, it didn't feel like there were that many superstar talents that teams were just
13:33waiting on and needed to pick at third or fourth overall and wouldn't want to trade up to that spot.
13:38They'd rather go get the veteran, even if it's going to be expensive.
13:42And so there is a little bit of right place, right time.
13:45But generally, I think we do see that it's hard to get this caliber of player, a Trent McDuffie caliber player, a
13:51Dexter Lawrence caliber player in free agency. Like those guys just don't really hit the market anymore.
13:56You can find good B-level players, B-level players. The true field tilters, you got to give up draft capital for them, whether
14:02it's getting the veterans or trading up to second or third overall to get like a Will Anderson.
14:07That kind of is the premium for those spots.
14:09I think if we look back at history, we probably overstating how many superstar players ended up hitting free agency, even in a different era.
14:16But I think it's even more pronounced now because of just how much the cap is exploding and the exploding cap and just how much financial flexibility.
14:23And then you combine that with teams being more creative and how they're manipulating the cap.
14:28You can really afford who you want to. And I think that impacts things on two different fronts.
14:33It impacts things because you can keep all the players you want and so fewer guys hit free agency.
14:38But it also means you have the flexibility to absorb players with these sorts of massive contracts.
14:42Like one of the reasons that you don't see a ton of expensive veteran player movement in previous eras is that teams
14:48just couldn't afford these sorts of players if they weren't already part of the plan.
14:52Now you can do whatever you want. Like you can wave a magic wand for the most part and you can create
14:58the space that you need to or you already have it because the cap has exploded so much that you can absorb these players pretty consistently.
15:05So I think that's part of it. I think GMs are just more aggressive now.
15:10And I think it's a combination of how we've seen that aggression play out.
15:13Like the Rams have done it a few times and succeeded.
15:16The Eagles won a Super Bowl being hyper aggressive and trading for A.J.
15:20Brown. So I think there's just a new breed of GM that's kind of willing to embrace that level of risk because
15:26we've shown it that it consistently works independent of sort of the systemic reasons this is happening.
15:30And I also think that there are a couple – there's like market-driven forces as part of this as well.
15:36Like what's happened at receiver and edge specifically, those markets have exploded at such a rate that I can understand looking at
15:42some of those contracts and just being like I can't justify this.
15:45Like I can't pay one player $45 million and forego the opportunity cost of that amount of money and two first-round picks.
15:51It's just not worth it to me. And I think that's what the Cowboys said with Micah Parsons.
15:56And we can go back and forth about whether that's right.
15:59But I think some teams are landing there. And the other part of it is that while I think a lot of
16:05teams are embracing their short windows and their aggressiveness to make these moves, I think that on the other side of these
16:11trades, you have GMs that also understand their windows.
16:13And the fact that this is worth it for me.
16:16Like two sides can have different competing motivations and different timelines that make these trades make sense.
16:21I think the Miles Garrett trade is an example of that.
16:24And I also feel like with some of these moves, you also have front offices that have gotten so much smarter about aging curbs.
16:30Right? And so or just positional stuff. Like Trent McDuffie getting $30 million a year in a first-round pick, that's an incredible amount of capital for the Chiefs.
16:38Like if you're the Rams, I understand wanting to maximize your window.
16:41If you're the Chiefs, I understand looking at that and saying we can't turn this down.
16:45Like that first-round pick and $30 million a year is Trent McDuffie for Mansour Delain, Kenneth Walker, and Elohi Gilman.
16:51That's a lot. And that's a pretty good way to look at it.
16:54Especially in the McDuffie case specifically. We've talked about this a lot.
16:58He was clearly a special nickel player, but they had just moved their defense to move out of that.
17:03And Delain is probably going to play outside where McDuffie played.
17:06I think taking a corner at 6th overall, as good as I think Delain is a pretty good player, I don't think
17:12it's that crazy that he plays as good as McDuffie did on the outside.
17:16Like maybe not year 1, obviously, but if you get that year 2 on top of the savings, on top of having
17:22Kenneth Walker on the roster, it's like you start to understand why teams are willing to do this.
17:27I think I am a little bit shocked we see it as much as we do with edge rushers, just because I
17:33do think outside of quarterback and tackle, those are some of the hardest positions to find.
17:37But teams are more willing to move on from edge in part because quarterback and then tackle, even though you have two
17:43of them, they are not really like squad positions.
17:45Like you have your guys on the field who are going to play.
17:49Whereas at least with edge rushers, even if there's a ton of value in having an ace, obviously, you also can build
17:55a pretty good room of just like four kind of nice guys.
17:58In a way that that's just not as true of tackle or quarterback, obviously.
18:02100%. We're going to talk about this a little bit later with positions that we feel like are slightly undervalued compared to the market.
18:08And I think when you compare some of those positions, even like offensive tackle to what edge rushers are making right now,
18:14there is a massive gap between how those positions are compensated.
18:17And I mean, the arms race with receivers and edges specifically happens so quickly and so dramatically that I think that's one of the reasons.
18:24And then with edges, the scarcity is going to be there, right?
18:27Like the scarcity is absolutely going to be there with edges.
18:30Those guys are hard to find when you're looking for like the true tippy-tippy top guys.
18:35You're mostly finding those guys in the first round.
18:37At receiver, we have a decent supply pretty much every single year.
18:40And so there was always in my mind going to be a tipping point of when teams were just going to say, no, thank you.
18:47Like I just can't justify if you're going to give me a first round pick for this guy and I have to
18:53pay him $40 million a year, especially a guy on like a third contract like AJ Brown with potential physical issues that
18:59might be creeping up over the next couple years.
19:02I get the Eagles independent of how happy or unhappy he is being like, this is in our long-term best interest.
19:07Like he's a really good player, but I still feel like we have to do this in this moment.
19:13All right, what's the next one? The next one is from Macy Carwin.
19:16Macy says, as an avid NFL and NBA fan, I've always found it interesting that the two leagues do the draft and free agency in different orders.
19:23In my mind, the NBA's draft first, free agency second approach makes more sense than the NFL's.
19:28I think acquiring players via free agency is more predictable and controllable than who will be available in the draft.
19:34Is this something you guys have considered and what would the potential pros and cons be if the NFL were to switch its order?
19:40Robert, you take this one first. I absolutely have considered it.
19:43It is something I've thought about and talked about in the past.
19:46And Kevin Seifert actually did a really good story about this for ESPN.
19:50I think it was like four years ago. And the history of it dates back to the pre-free agency era in the
19:56NFL, like before 1993 when we actually had free agency.
19:59They had something in the previous, I think, three to four years that they called Plan B, which was kind of like a precursor to true free agency.
20:06And you got to protect a certain number of players on your roster each year.
20:10And then the guys who were more fringe guys ended up hitting like a de facto free agency.
20:15And the players, as part of that system, wanted to know where they were going as soon as possible.
20:20And so that started almost immediately after the season ended.
20:23And so that was part of why that happened and then the draft happened.
20:27And when you go back to the 90s, it was harder to prepare for the draft in the 90s.
20:32You didn't have as much information. The staffs were considerably smaller.
20:35And so people wanted more time to prepare for the draft.
20:38And that's why the draft happened in late April and the veteran movement happened much sooner.
20:42Now, there's really no reason for it to be this way.
20:45It's just kind of how they always did it.
20:48I think you could make a really serious argument that we're in a spot where front offices have gotten so much bigger
20:54and processes have gotten so much more streamlined that you could have the draft on April 1st if you needed to.
20:59I think that absolutely could happen. And so would you want to do free agency after that?
21:04I think there are reasons in terms of being in the consciousness that this works out for the NFL because by going
21:10– you have the combine right after the Super Bowl essentially.
21:13So it's a draft event. So you're whetting people's interests and appetites for the draft.
21:17But then you have free agency, so you own that two weeks.
21:20And then the draft has a month-long news cycle.
21:23So you really do own the entire conversation all the way through May 1st until like the NBA playoffs are really ramping up.
21:29Baseball hasn't started that. So I think there's a lot of different competing forces.
21:33We can talk about how it would influence the choices made in free agency or the draft.
21:38But Derek, I'm curious of what are your thoughts about just how this is set up and whether you think this is the right way to approach it.
21:45Well, so that's actually where my mind went was like who – in terms of decision-making, who does this affect?
21:51And like what kinds of free agents does this affect?
21:53Because I think if the draft were to be first, I think it would be a little bit easier in my mind
21:59for teams to just be like who is the best player that I can get?
22:03And then when we get to free agency, we'll fill in whatever other spots we need.
22:08Because how often do – you know, teams don't want to draft for need.
22:11But ultimately, if free agency is first, you end up with two holes on your roster where you're like I guess we
22:17just need a tight end and we've got to take one.
22:20Or I guess we just need a defensive tackle so we've got to take one.
22:25Whereas I think if you have draft first, it's easier to be like we think this guy's a star.
22:30We'll just take him and we'll fill out the other rest of the stuff.
22:34And then that got me thinking of like well, which kinds of veterans does that hurt?
22:38Because on one hand, you're going to have more of these going into free agency, some more of these starting spots like already filled, right?
22:45Like with first round picks and stuff like that.
22:47But I still think that at the top of the free agent market because those guys are also starters, I almost wonder
22:53if there's even more competition for those guys because now there's a desperation.
22:57Now it's like I can't fill that in the draft.
22:59Now I have to pay you. And so I think there actually might be more competition for like the top 20% of free agents.
23:06And then I actually think the mid-tier guys and below-tier guys maybe get hurt because maybe teams in the third round were like, ah, we took a receiver.
23:13We don't need to sign a guy now. You know what I mean?
23:17And so that to me is I wonder just which kinds of free agents it hurts or helps.
23:22I think that's exactly right. I think that at the top of the market, especially in certain years where there's scarcity in
23:28the free agent pool, like I always think of, I always think of like an auction fantasy draft.
23:33Like the guys who go way higher than they should are the last player in a certain tier at a position.
23:39And so if you're sitting there and you need a running back in this year's free agent class, the draft has already happened.
23:45And let's just say for argument's sake, like Travis H.
23:47Han has already been signed and Kenneth Walker is the last guy.
23:51Then we get to a place where you get really desperate to pump up the value of those guys.
23:56I think that would happen. But I think the guys in the second and third tier players, there isn't as much interest
24:02because some of these holes have been filled. The argument you mentioned about best player available, coaches have said that.
24:07Like Kyle Shanahan was quoted being like, I think that would happen if we did this.
24:12I think that's the idealized version of it. Like they wouldn't actually arrive there.
24:15I think in reality, if you were still looking at a debt chart with all of these empty spots on it, you'd
24:21still probably draft for need to a decent extent.
24:24I think that would likely happen a little bit more.
24:27And if you did that, then I think even more veteran salaries as part of this would get depressed because you would
24:33just have less glaring needs after the draft was over.
24:35Just because I think by like human nature and the way that we do this, you would still draft for need to a certain extent.
24:42And it would make free agency a little bit less important when it came to filling some of those holes.
24:48I think you would definitely still draft for need.
24:50It's just at least to me, I think you would go into the draft knowing that we have three or four spots that are wide open.
24:57Whereas sometimes you get to the free agency and you just get stuck and it's like, shit, we don't have a right tackle at all.
25:04We have to take one. Whereas I think if you're going in with three clear needs, it's a little bit easier to
25:10find whatever the balance is between drafting for need and being like that guy's a star.
25:14Let's just take him. I'll say overall, I think if we switch the order, I honestly think it would have less of
25:20an impact than it might seem at first glance.
25:23Because I do think that the two sides have gotten really good at talking to each other.
25:27We see this. We see certain positions get pumped up in free agency because even if you don't know how the draft
25:33is going to go, the amount of modeling, the amount of like tiering, like what percentage chance is this guy going to
25:39be available by the time we pick? How many guys in this tier of player are there before we get to our pick?
25:45I think we've gotten good enough at that to know that there's a reason that Kenneth Walker gets $14 million a year in free agency.
25:52And it's because we know there are no running backs available in that year's draft.
25:56So I do think that they talk to each other often enough that they've influenced one another enough that if we did
26:02switch them, it wouldn't be some seismic shift where you would just see the thought process completely change.
26:07The last thing I'll ask, do you think we would get more or less trades like in the first round?
26:13Like because I do think some trades are driven by desperation.
26:16Some trades are obviously driven by like, I want to take Will Anderson at third overall.
26:20And so there is like some different considerations and stuff like that.
26:23But I just wonder how that would go. I think it'd be less.
26:27That's kind of where I land too. Yeah. I think it'd be less because I think that the, that like, again, the
26:33scarcity and the, we need to get the last player of this position in this tier.
26:37And we need to make sure that we're doing that.
26:40Like the Eagles going up and trading for Makai Lemon, you know, with the way they did in this year's draft.
26:46I assume they had him as like the last player in that tier of receivers that they wanted to chase.
26:51And that's why they did it. So I think if you, you could tell yourself, oh, we'll just find one later.
26:57You know, we'll just, we'll just find this guy in free agency.
27:00I think you'd be a little bit less, there'd be less urgency in making sure you were getting ahead of certain teams and getting certain players.
27:07I, you know, that's actually, I think we probably like those top 10 trades, like trying to get the elite talents.
27:13That probably doesn't change. But a lot of those trades that we see like back into the first round of what you're
27:19talking about, of making sure we get that last guy in a tier, probably see less of those.
27:24Cause they'll just be like, ah, we'll sign whoever for $11 million and it'll be fun.
27:28One of the prevailing kind of sentiments when I was reading about this is that people are just comfortable with the way that it is right now.
27:35And like, I think Quazy was quoted in the story and he was saying that I don't even want to think about
27:41that because this is just how it is. Like there, there's just no value in thinking about that.
27:46And that, that's kind of how I feel is that like, I am, I find the off season cadence so comfortable at
27:52this point because I've done it so many times.
27:55I, I just, I love this. Like I, I love the way that it is set up right now just because it
28:01feels very warm and cozy and I can just kind of like wade into the off season with the exact same rhythm every single year.
28:07So I vote for keeping it the same, even if I can admit that it might not be optimized.
28:13We in the NFL sphere, whether it's the league, us and media fans, whoever, it's a very ritualistic and like, I like the way that things go league.
28:20And so for that reason alone, I would understand why they never even think about changing it.
28:25Yeah. It's a worthwhile question. It's a very good one by Macy, but I vote to keep things the way that they are right now.
28:32We're going to take our first quick break and then we're going to come back and chat through a few more of your questions.
28:38Hi, Val, what's the next one? All right. Sean Jameson, appropriate last name for this question.
28:42Sean says, attached is a photo of the different horrific infusions of Malort from the barrel house in Dayton.
28:48If you're unfamiliar with what Malort is, we can talk about that a little later.
28:52If you're listening, we have this up on screen right now on our YouTube channel.
28:56We have the, he sent us the screenshot of the infusion so you can see it on YouTube.
29:01This had me wondering, what player or coach could be infused into teams with everything else remaining the same that would put the worst taste in fans' mouths?
29:08Like the Bears being forced to play Aaron Rodgers at quarterback this year.
29:12Bonus points if there's some critical mass that could be infused that approaches the liquid f*** you.
29:16Sorry for the bleep, Katie. If you're not watching, this is the liquid f*** you.
29:21Is a Malort infused with dinner mints, banana runts, Old Bay, wormwood, pickle brine, raisins, and smoked scorpion peppers.
29:26Robert, I know you went first on the last one, but you're the Chicagoan answering the questions.
29:30You got to take this one first. The idea that like Malort is so bad that you can just do whatever you
29:36want to it because it has no pride is offensive to me.
29:40Like that, I find that deeply offensive. I agree completely.
29:42I don't want to be one of these people that's like, no, it's actually good.
29:46I get why people are turned off by it, but what I drank, which, you know, I used to do a decent amount, I shot Malort.
29:53That's what I did. Like that was my choice.
29:56If I was sitting at a bar and we all did one, that's what I did.
30:00And so I like it. I mean, I have liked it.
30:03Again, I think it deserves more respect than whatever this bar in Dayton is doing it to it right now.
30:09If you want to have it be involved in some sort of like elevated cocktail program and you want to do cool
30:15s*** with it, there are bars that have done this in Chicago very well.
30:18Like Lost Lake when it existed, had a really cool Malort menu and did some fun stuff with it.
30:24That's acceptable. But I want you to be respectful of it as respectful of its integrity.
30:28If you're going to be doing things with it in a bar, that's my Malort soapbox.
30:32I want to talk to someone who's running our merch contest and say, this is going up after the merch closes.
30:38But if someone out there is hearing this after it closes and you want to make a Taft's we respect Malort shirt,
30:44we can get that into the contest also. It deserves respect.
30:47That's what I'm going to say. I would say right now there are two things that come to mind because in this
30:53offseason specifically, they've been like the two main sources of vitriol that have come across my timeline.
30:58I'm going to flip the Bears Packers thing. If you made Caleb Williams the Packers quarterback right now.
31:03Oh, that's a better version. Yes, they and listen, I if I were a Packers fan and all I had to hear
31:08about was this guy that completed 58 percent of his passes and through all these interceptions in the playoffs and objectively was
31:14still a very flawed quarterback last year and about how he was the second coming.
31:19I'd be pissed off, too. I would be very frustrated with this because your quarterback.
31:23I hope Caleb Williams is a superstar. I hope he wins 10 MVP awards.
31:26Jordan Love is a better quarterback right now than Caleb Williams.
31:29Jordan Love is a very, very good NFL player.
31:32And so I get just yelling at the like just screaming into the void.
31:36If you're a Packers fan having to deal with what the Caleb Williams discourse has felt like in like the last month
31:42of the season and into this offseason. I completely understand that.
31:45The other one for me, I want you to go first because I have like I have a rant with the second one.
31:51My other one has already happened, which is the problem, which is that the idea that Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers are
31:57together again is seems like it would have been insane for the both of them two years ago even.
32:02And now we're at a point where we all have to pretend or or at least like talk ourselves into this idea
32:08that it's everything is fine and going to work.
32:10And so it's I think if you asked me this question a year ago, I would have been like Mike Tomlin getting
32:16fired and Mike McCarthy being the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers.
32:20My next one, the other like real just animus that I have seen this offseason is the animus that Seahawks fans have for the Rams.
32:27And I think some of that is driven by how much they're perceiving people talking about the Rams.
32:31OK, so I think in this specific case, it would be like if you took away Mike McDonald and made Sean McVay
32:37the coach of the Seahawks and they had to win the Super Bowl.
32:41But it meant Sean McVay got to win another Super Bowl.
32:44I think that would leave a bad taste in Seahawks fans mouths.
32:47I want to talk about this, though. I want to talk about the Seahawks Rams situation.
32:52I would like to address this. If you are a Seahawks fan, I completely understand being frustrated at people crowning the Rams
32:58as next year's champions because of what they've done this offseason.
33:01That to me is disrespectful. Like we should not be doing that.
33:04But someone said to me this week that people have been talking about last year's playoffs as if the Rams just got unlucky.
33:10Like it was really just that the Rams lost it and a couple of bounces didn't go their way.
33:15And that's why they didn't win the Super Bowl.
33:18I have never said that because I don't think that the Seahawks were like a dominant, worthy champion.
33:23They were an excellent, excellent team that is a deserving champion in any given NFL season.
33:27Like no matter what the AFC side of the bracket looked like.
33:30But when it comes to why people have been talking about the Rams this offseason, I just don't get why that's hard to understand.
33:37Like people are reacting to what has happened this spring specifically.
33:40The Rams have made several of the most noteworthy moves of the entire offseason.
33:43They made two of the five biggest veteran trades that we saw.
33:47And they shockingly drafted a quarterback in the first round after the guy they had at quarterback won the MVP last year.
33:53The Seahawks offseason has been very quiet. Like the guys they've lost are more notable than the guys they've gained.
33:58And it's inevitable that right now because of that, we're going to be talking about the Rams more than we talk about the Seahawks.
34:05If we start previewing the actual season, I think people would be very well served to remember how good Seattle was last year.
34:11That's important. But it's April and May. Like the Rams just traded for Miles Garrett.
34:15Like framing that as the Rams traded for Miles Garrett.
34:18But remember that the Seahawks won the Super Bowl, guys.
34:20Like that would just be weird. Like why would we do that?
34:24And so that just doesn't make sense. But I think as we get closer to the season, we should be really acknowledging
34:30how truly dominant the Seahawks were last year. Which I think I did a lot near the end of last season.
34:35You were on it before most people, yes. And I think the other part of this, and I think this will happen
34:41inevitably on this show, over the next two to three months, we should be having more conversation about Mike McDonald's place in the league.
34:48That is something that should be happening and I plan on doing it.
34:51We just sketched out the next two months on this show.
34:54It's going to be a lot of conversations about this.
34:57Because I think he will be an incredibly influential figure in what the next several years of the NFL look like.
35:03Jesse Minter I think is partially the Ravens head coach because of Mike McDonald.
35:07There really hasn't been a defensive version of McVay when it comes to a guy that is going to wield a ton
35:13of influence on the shape of the league as one singular presence on defense in the last 10 years.
35:18I think McDonald has a chance to be that.
35:20And I think the implications of that are going to come up over and over again.
35:25And we're going to talk a lot about that.
35:27But the last few months have been reserved for offseason moves.
35:30And the Seahawks just didn't make many of them.
35:33And I just don't understand. We shouldn't have to ring a bell every time we talk about teams being like, just remember
35:38guys, the Seahawks won the Super Bowl. We know they did.
35:41The easiest way to put how that all happened is that if before free agency and before the draft we put Super
35:47Bowl odds, both of them would have been top five.
35:50And then the Rams did 100 things and the Seahawks did nothing.
35:53It's kind of that simple. And even going back to like the playoffs and all that stuff, if I've maybe ever said
35:59the Rams got unlucky, I don't mean like bounces of the ball and stuff.
36:03I mean, like those two teams could have played a thousand games and they each win 500 of them.
36:08And somebody had to win that game. And that doesn't take away from obviously what the Seahawks did.
36:13I just think that those two teams were incredible and the Seahawks were the one to get it over the finish line.
36:19So obviously they deserve a lot of credit. But again, these were the two, at minimum, the two of the best five
36:25teams in the NFL going into the year before free agency, before the draft, before all the trades.
36:30And the Rams acquired like a star corner, the best pass rusher in the league and all this other stuff.
36:36Like, of course, we're going to talk about them differently.
36:38Yeah, but again, I think most of my commentary on them has been like the thought processes and the actual acts themselves.
36:44Like, I'm not sitting there. I get why they have the highest Super Bowl odds.
36:48Like, no one on this show, I think, is treating this as a foregone conclusion that that means the Rams will win the Super Bowl next year.
36:56Matthew Stafford might break this year. Yes, it's just for so many different reasons.
37:00And so, and yeah, it's the whole thing is just, I think it's kind of silly.
37:04But it's come up often enough that I at least wanted to address it in some capacity.
37:08All right, what's the next one here? Okay, Ross Millard.
37:11We're getting in the World Cup fever here. Check it all out on The Athletic.
37:15We have a lot of cool stuff coming on The Athletic for the World Cup.
37:19Ross is thinking on soccer and bringing that over to the NFL.
37:23He says, in the Premier League, elite teams have converged on a control meta, possess the ball, defend well, grind out low variance, wins.
37:29That drives up the price of certain player profiles, creative forwards who can break down settled defenses, elite sixes, lock down centerbacks,
37:35and creates value opportunities for clubs willing to play a different style.
37:38What's the NFL analog? If a front office completely set aside stylistic preferences and asked what player profiles are systematically undervalued right
37:44now, then built the offense and defense to maximize those players, what would that team look like?
37:49Thinking about how teams like the Bengals or Eagles have consolidated spend on one side of the ball, but taken a step further.
37:55If you were truly style agnostic and just chasing the best talent per dollar, what's the approach?
38:00And is this happening today? Derek, what do you got here?
38:03Yeah, so I think trying to figure out like what positions teams are chasing and why, I think it definitely depends.
38:09I think we're already seeing the one that teams believe is to be undervalued, which is the tight ends movement.
38:14Like everybody believes that that's just like a cheaper way to be able to put together your skill group.
38:19And, you know, we did the tight end show.
38:22I think it came out last Thursday or Friday.
38:24Like you were talking to Charlie Kohler, Robert, about how it's just more business savvy to build your pass catcher room overall
38:30with these tight ends because it's going to be a little bit cheaper.
38:34And so I think that we've seen teams want to do that for that reason, which I do think leads us to an interesting point.
38:40I think sometimes when we get these positions or archetypes or whatever that feel undervalued, it goes away so fast in the NFL.
38:47So the NFL is so quick to be like, that's the trend.
38:50We're going to hop on it. And two years later, whatever that value, you know, that you thought you were extracting is probably gone.
38:56Like if you were having to jump on it now, you are potentially a little bit late.
39:01And I think that that's kind of just the way that the NFL works.
39:05I also talked a little bit on that show.
39:07Like I truly do believe that like downhill linebackers again are in a spot where they're a little bit undervalued.
39:13I still think we're in a position where we're kind of obsessed with coverage and interceptions and all that stuff.
39:18And I get that. But I still think that there's a little bit of like a.
39:23I think that there were much better downhill linebackers in this particular free agency class, for example, than Devin Lloyd.
39:28Like I think that there were a lot of them who are better at that than Devin Lloyd.
39:33But Devin Lloyd got paid the most because in theory he can get you some interceptions, which that to me feels a little bit more.
39:40Like luck based him kind of falling into some of those opportunities.
39:43And he's a good coverage player, whereas like the consistent downhill stuff that you're going to get from like a Robert Spillane.
39:49Right. Who is making like millions per year less than a guy like Devin Lloyd.
39:53I just think extracting value from those guys is pretty nice.
39:56I think you're right in the sense that like if we by identifying them on this show, we're already a step behind.
40:02Like that's inevitably happening. I'll say this. I think that my answer to a question like this is as the price for players on the perimeter has exploded.
40:10I think the value resides with players that play closer to the ball and in the spine of the offense and defense.
40:16Right. Like interior defensive linemen to me right now still are undervalued compared to their counterparts on the edge.
40:21Like if we look at it right now, Will Anderson is making 50 million dollars a year.
40:2550, 5-0. The top interior defensive lineman is still only at 30.
40:29And that contract has been treated about as an outlier by the market for Chris Jones.
40:33And so and I think you could make a really serious argument that the best interior defensive lineman, especially because of what
40:39they're asked to do in light box run situations, are as valuable as the best edge rushers right now.
40:44And the gap between those two is 30 million dollars a year.
40:47And even in the draft, right, like if Byron Murphy was an edge rusher with his production profile in the draft where
40:53he went, he would have gone in the top five.
40:56100%. Instead, he's in the teens. And so I think that position specifically, I would try to be building just the most
41:02badass interior defensive line rotation I possibly could with a combination of guys who are really stout against the run, have enough
41:08pass rush juice, can be pocket crushers. Like that position specifically, I still think is undervalued when it comes to the impact
41:14it has overall compared to other very, very highly compensated positions on defense.
41:18And even just look at a number of the best defenses in the league lately.
41:22Look at how many resources and picks the Rams spent on that position.
41:25Obviously, the Seahawks drafted Byron Murphy, who we just talked about.
41:28They go and trade for a Leonard Williams, like, you know, really investing in that room.
41:33Look at how quickly the Patriots defense turned around when they brought in Milton Williams to pair with Christian Barmore.
41:38And then obviously getting Barmore back healthy. And then also putting Robert Spillane behind them, like really like shoring up that spine,
41:44I do think is a good way to put it.
41:47The last thing I would want to say on this is I think.
41:50Like, if we're trying to do the thing of like identifying what are the archetypes and players that the league is really
41:56trending towards, I think one of them is inevitably going to be the big nickel position.
42:01But I don't think that is like a value proposition.
42:03I think that is just like I think chasing that gets into like the scary where everyone after the cover three thing
42:09was like, we're just going to find Richard Sherman's and Brandon Browners.
42:12These six three corners is it's like, man, how many nickels are six, three, two, 20 and can actually run like that?
42:18I think if you start chasing that, you run into an issue.
42:22Whereas I think trying to chase like having two quality tight ends or just having like linebackers who can downhill fit the run.
42:28I think it's just a lot easier to find those guys like those skill sets are there are more of them.
42:34It's just like identifying and really valuing them and giving them the money they probably deserve.
42:38I think that's probably right. But I also think that if there is a guy that you think can capably play that
42:44position for you in free agency because safeties are available in free agency and maybe we're bucketing those big nickels in with
42:50safeties in terms of how many of those guys are hitting the market.
42:54Kyle Hamilton makes $25 million a year. That's not enough.
42:56That's not enough for what he is. That's not enough.
42:59And it's just it's driven by what we pay them that position.
43:02And so I think there's value to be found in both safeties and off ball linebackers.
43:07I think part of the challenge with drafting those positions high is that it can be a little bit hit or miss
43:13for evaluating them because there's so much that isn't can't be seen physically.
43:16And so I think allowing yourself to pay them in free agency.
43:19One they're available more often and two it's a little bit safer but I would be willing to pay those guys in free agency.
43:26I got to pay a little bit more for quality safety linebacker play than the market would probably dictate right now because
43:32I think that those players are probably undervalued. That's a good point.
43:35If we knew there was a guy who could give you around what Derwin James obviously gives you as like that flex you know kind of big nickel.
43:43I think if there were five of those guys on the market or you know maybe that's a lot but like teams
43:49would be willing to pay for them. But again in the draft it's a little bit of a scarier proposition.
43:54That's why a guy like Nicky Manwari even for as talented as he is doesn't go in the first round.
44:00Because it's hard to pin down exactly what he was right.
44:03And I think that's part of the reason. But even like a guy like Kobe Bryant making what Kobe Bryant made in free agency.
44:09I'm not even blinking at that contract because I just think that those types of players are really really valuable.
44:15And like the idea that you know corners are going to be getting paid significantly more than those types of safeties now.
44:21I just don't think that's correct. And the other position I would say is I think interior offensive linemen and just offensive
44:27linemen in general is you can still build a room like that at a relative discount for how important it is to your team's overall success.
44:34Like the idea that Will Anderson is making $50 million and the best offensive tackle is making $30 million.
44:39And so the highest paid offensive tackles are making 75% of what the top wide receivers are, 60% of what the top edge rushers are.
44:46And that's the thing like I, Will Anderson and Daniel Hunter obviously deserve the money that they're getting.
44:50But how much cheaper would it be to like pay for a top tier tackle duo?
44:55And not that necessarily you need to make that concession but like that's exactly what you're saying.
44:59Like it would cost you like 75% of what it would be to have that ace pass rushing duo than it would to have like two superstar tackles.
45:07Well, when you consider what right tackles are paid, you could pay the highest paid left tackle in the league and the
45:13highest paid right tackle in the league and it would add up to what Will Anderson makes.
45:18And so I think just offensive linemen in general and like I think that's why we've seen so many first round picks
45:24thrown at offensive tackles over the last few years is that like we those players are hard to find and we just
45:30should keep investing them over and over and over again.
45:32And I will say actually the tackle one is kind of weird because at least with guard and linebacker and center, we've talked about this before.
45:39Some of it is tied to like because of how weird they are to find in the draft that like goes into
45:45how it, you know, how we end up paying them and all that stuff and how they transfer to different schemes and
45:51whatever you want to say for that. But tackles are a premium position that does always go in the first round.
45:57And so, you know what I mean? Like it's just weird that it's not treated in quite the same way as the edge.
46:03And they also those guys age really well, too.
46:06It's not like there's really a consideration there. Like I I wonder what the push and pull there really is.
46:11I wonder if just because there's lack there's less movement at that position than it is with some of the other positions.
46:17Right. That's a good point. I mean, those guys never hit the market.
46:21Well, they they never hit free agency, period. And the only and I'm curious, I'd have to look back at this, but
46:27I know that at one point and I don't remember how.
46:30Kind of explicit this was, I think some people treated as an outlier, but the DeAndre Hopkins trade happens to the Cardinals.
46:36He gets that massive AAV contract as part of that deal.
46:39And I think some of that bled into, you know, what other players are making.
46:43And then Christian Kirk gets twenty five million. Maybe that's part of it.
46:46Like they're. Yeah. But at the same time, it's like if I were a Laramie Tunsil and Dan Moore got twenty four
46:52million dollars a year, I'd be like this. Like I deserve way more than this.
46:56And so it's I wonder if just the lack of overall movement at tackle compared to some other positions, the price points
47:02just haven't changed quite as quickly and quite as dramatically as it has with something like receivers.
47:07And I also think the receiver thing directly influenced the off of the edge thing because we had these guys hitting the
47:13market at the same time or hitting free agency at the same time.
47:16And with Nick Bosa and Justin Jefferson, it was like the highest paid non quarterback thing was real.
47:21Like those two like pushed each other up in a way that didn't seem to happen with offensive tackles.
47:27And so that's worth examining. Like why hasn't the tackle market grown quick quite as quickly if we acknowledge that those players
47:32are really valuable and really scarce as the wide receiver and edge market has?
47:36I also wonder, too, and this would be a bad way to build a team, to be clear.
47:41But obviously wide receiver and the pass rushers, they put up numbers like it's very easy to see what you're paying for.
47:47Whereas if you pay for, you know, Tristan Wurst for as incredible as he is and if he's making five all pros
47:53in a row, it's like a little bit harder to see like what the exact numerical value for what he's providing you is.
47:59Whereas Will Anderson Jr. can give you 20 sacks in a season.
48:03It's very obvious what he is giving you. Again, I don't know if that should necessarily, if you're the GM, like fall into how you're doing it.
48:10But like I get perception wise how that might have some effect on how that's happening.
48:14Talking about tackles, to me, it even extends to interior offensive linemen.
48:18Like the idea that, yeah, they're getting paid more than they used to, but you can still get really, really, really good
48:24guards for like $15 million a year. He's a good player.
48:27And I don't even think this is like an overpay by any means.
48:30It's just more about market forces. Nick Herbig got $25 million this week.
48:34Like you're getting really good guards still for like numbers in the teens.
48:37And so I think that there is like a tiny bit of a gap between how we're valuing edges, receivers, even corners to an extent.
48:44Like again, the idea that Trent McDuffie is worth $30 million and Penny Sewell is worth $28 million.
48:49That doesn't, that doesn't compute. Like I just don't think that that is currently how the game is being played.
48:54But that's, that's a really good way to put it with the Nick Herbig thing.
48:58Again, he's a really good player. There are, there are two guards to make at least $23 million.
49:03It's Trey Smith and Tyler Smith. That's it. That's it.
49:06And Nick Herbig, it just got that money as a guy who has never been really a full-time starter.
49:11But it's again, because that's just kind of what the going rate is for a pass rusher.
49:16But even like Milton Williams getting $24 million in free agency, I think Milton Williams, I'd rather have that.
49:21I'd rather like the interior defensive lineman thing. I think that's where a lot of it resides.
49:26And I think that the mirror image of it on the other side of the ball is also true.
49:31Where like if you can find some value there and build your team that way, there's a lot of value to be had there.
49:37All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more of these.
49:42Okay, Jack Brenton all has our next question. Jack says elite edge rushers usually win with a combination of speed, power, and technique.
49:49But if you were building an entire edge room and could only prioritize one of those traits, which would you choose?
49:54The catch every player in the room is elite in your chosen trait, but only adequate in the other two.
50:00So your options are elite speed, adequate power and technique, elite power, adequate speed and technique, elite technique, adequate speed and power.
50:06Which room are you taking and why? Which trait gives you the best chance of consistently creating pressure in today's NFL?
50:12Derek, Robert got to do two in a row first.
50:14You get to do two in a row first.
50:17You take this one. Perfect. So I understand the value of putting all three options into the question.
50:22I don't think you can pick technique because to me, technique is only valuable in so far as it unlocks your athleticism.
50:28Only a nerd would pick technique. Yeah, like, come on.
50:30We don't need to be doing that. Because I think with this too, I was trying to think of like, okay, who
50:36is a player who I think is like incredibly technique sound and is maybe like adequate power and speed?
50:41And I was like, Tuli, Tuli, Pelotu? Even that, I think, is too much power.
50:46I think it's Layatu, Latu. I think Latu. I think Latu is actually the answer to that.
50:50That's a good one. Because Tuli has a little bit more like kicker ass to him.
50:55Tuli's got some FU to him. He's got a little bit of punch to him.
50:59He's got more than adequate. That's a good one.
51:01Latu is a good one. Whereas I think if you look at some of the other guys, like I think to me it was a little bit easier.
51:09At first, my inclination was immediately just like power.
51:11Of course it's power. But then as I thought about it, if the exercise is that you're taking elite speed and...
51:17You're really going to disappoint me here. I'm still probably lean power.
51:20But here's my argument on why I got myself a little bit closer on speed.
51:24Usually my issue with the speed guys is they are like zeros against the run.
51:28Like truly hurting you. But if their technique and power is adequate, like we can get by and they're getting in the
51:34backfield enough, I think there is more of an argument than I probably initially led myself to believe.
51:39I still probably ultimately go to power because I think the ceiling for a room built like that is just way higher, both run and pass.
51:46Even if obviously the ceiling is higher for the speed.
51:49That's interesting. The floor is higher for I think the power guys.
51:52Okay, that's what I thought you meant. Yeah. Yes.
51:55The floor is higher. Yes. Sorry. The ceiling is highest with speed, right?
51:58Totally. And so I think the best recent examples where obviously it's not this because it's not a theoretical exercise.
52:04But like if we're leaning towards speed, some of the Niners teams that we've seen, the Browns at their best a few
52:10years ago, like that's the best example of this to me is we're like we're just getting upfield.
52:14And we are gash or be gash. We do not care.
52:17The Giants right now kind of are like this.
52:20Yes. But I wonder if their front plays like that, right?
52:23Like that's it. It's a very different style than like what Denardo Wilson might ask them to do.
52:28I'm thinking of like these four down attack fronts.
52:30And I think the high end outcomes of that, that we saw it with like 2023 Browns, where the high end outcome
52:36of that is you have one of the best defensive success rates of all time if you play that way.
52:42And I do think that the ceiling cases for all speed are very tantalizing.
52:45At the same time, especially with the way the game is being played right now, I want the power guys.
52:51Like just give me five dudes who will. I one of my favorite things is watching a sack where it just happens
52:57because the quarterback falls on his ass. Like it's just a bull rushed offensive tackle right back into the quarterback and the quarterback just falls over.
53:04If I have a defensive line where that's how I'm getting all my sacks, I support this.
53:09Mm-hmm. I actually think, I think a good way too, we can look at, actually there are specific edge rooms that I do think are built like this.
53:16I think both the Seahawks and the Rams were built like, those are power rushers.
53:20Now obviously Vers is like too good at too many things to really fall into this, but he is more that style of player.
53:27Absolutely. Versus the Broncos are very much the like speed only baby.
53:30And so it's kind of like, would you rather have the Broncos style of edge room or would you rather have Rams or Seahawks?
53:37And again, I think obviously the best games for the Broncos are just like, holy shit, Nick Benito and Jonathan Cooper in the backfield every single play.
53:44But I do think that there are games where you can bully them on the edge a little bit and they can
53:50be nullified in a way that like Jared Verse and Demarcus Lawrence and Byron Young and Nuchenna Nwosu, they are always going to pester you.
53:57At worst, they are always going to be around.
53:59And at best, they are going to be in your lap pretty consistently.
54:03And I think that to me, what tips this is the run defense aspect of it.
54:07Totally. If you have the, and there's difference between power and strength.
54:10And I would ask that question, like, are these guys powerful or are they also strong?
54:15Because if they're very strong in a phone booth, along with being powerful, then to me, it's like a no brainer.
54:20But David Bailey is the guy we talked about this within the draft.
54:24David Bailey is powerful. He's not necessarily strong. Like those are two different things.
54:28Because power, I think, is about explosiveness and there's a level of explosiveness necessary to be really powerful as a pass rusher.
54:34But the part of this that I think is notable is that there's a reason that you need a little bit of both.
54:40Because one of the reasons that the Rams defensive front works so well is because if you have a defensive line of
54:46all power guys, you're going to struggle to finish plays.
54:49That's what the issue is going to be. But if you build a room where it's a combination of them, like Kobe
54:55Turner is an amazing piece of a broader defensive line rotation because his change of direction is so good that if the
55:01quarterback is spilling at all, he is so good at cleaning stuff up.
55:04And that's what a player like Jared Verse does.
55:07Jared Verse creates sacks for other people. If you only have that type of player, then who's going to get the sacks?
55:13You're getting them in the exact way I described where you're just trying to collapse the entire pocket all at once.
55:18And that is a great way to put it.
55:21And this does really go back into like you do need to make sure you're building the rest of the room correctly,
55:27because I do think on the other end, the Broncos have done a good job of that, too.
55:32They built a defensive line room that was like, we're going to get push immediately, force the quarterback to want to get to the edge.
55:38Oh, shit. Nick Benito is right there. Like they both of these teams are all three of these teams have done a really, really good job of that.
55:46All right. What's the last one here? All right.
55:48Last one. Scarecrow 003. After listening to the AFC supporting cast episode, both of you had a sense of positivity toward Declan
55:54Doyle and how he will impact the offense in Baltimore as the play caller.
55:58I see similarities this season between him and Mike LaFleur, even though LaFleur is the head coach in Arizona.
56:03Why do you think there is a different level of optimism toward how these guys will impact their new teams?
56:09Is it as simple as one has Lamar and the other has Jacoby Percet or Gardner Minshew or Carson Beck?
56:14Robert, what do you got here? I think with the Cardinals, there is a lack of enthusiasm to the point where there's
56:20only so much excitement you can have about Mike LaFleur.
56:23We know the quarterback situation is bad. We know they're not going to be a very good team.
56:28With Declan Doyle, he gets to play with Lamar Jackson like immediately.
56:31And I think that's unfair to the individual play callers if we're trying to isolate them from the situation.
56:36Because I think there's absolutely a chance that Mike LaFleur does a really, really good job with the Cardinals.
56:41To me, the best case for him. And I think the other part of it is with Declan Doyle, we've never seen him do it before.
56:49That's exactly what it is to me. When there's this mystery box element of it, it's so much easier to talk yourself into the best possible version.
56:56And we've seen Michael LaFleur do it before. He wasn't a disaster with the Jets, but we've seen him do it and ultimately get fired.
57:03I think the best case scenario for a Michael LaFleur is similar to what we just saw happen with Clint Kubiak.
57:08Where there's solid but kind of unspectacular play callers at first.
57:11And they're both the same age. They both were play callers in like 2021.
57:15And so the timeline of it actually does match up pretty well.
57:18And they're solid. Doesn't work out for whatever reason.
57:21They go spend some time as really important pieces from a game planning perspective with some of the best play callers in the league.
57:27And then they get a chance to do it again before they hit their 40th birthdays.
57:32Like there's absolutely a shot that Michael LaFleur is a one of those game changing play callers this time around.
57:37Because of what the last four or five years of his career have looked like.
57:41I'm open to that idea. I think for the reasons that we stated, there's just a little bit less excitement for him
57:47compared to a guy like Declan Doyle. Yeah, I think the mystery box element of it is huge.
57:52And like again, LaFleur was fine with the Jets.
57:55I think a lot more of the reason he was fired was not necessarily because he was bad at the job.
58:00It was just the quarterback was not good. And the situation was obviously not good.
58:04And so I think it's entirely possible, like you said, that he takes some learnings from some of the situations he's now been in since then.
58:11And ends up being pretty good. I think the other small consideration is like, one, Doyle is going in purely as the offensive coordinator.
58:18LaFleur will have head coaching responsibilities. So it's like, he's just going to have more things on his plate.
58:23It's a little bit harder to see how he's going to handle all that stuff.
58:27What's also part of like, if Declan Doyle got hired as a team's head coach, I'd be like, what?
58:32Like, holy shit. I would not be excited as excited.
58:35Like if he was the Ravens head coach, I'd be like, I don't know, man.
58:39And the Cardinals, they filled that vacancy last. And there's so much talk about, is this even a good job?
58:45Like, I think there's just so many different circumstantial things that play into how we see Michael Flora in that role versus
58:51how we see Declan Doyle in his role. That even if they're play callers, both of them, it's just a different lens
58:57that we see the LaFleur hire through than we see the Declan Doyle hire through.
59:01And the last little note I have that I do think it gives Doyle a little bit more interest.
59:06Michael Flora is obviously coming from like the Shanahan, McVay world, all that stuff.
59:10And we've seen a lot of those guys succeed, but that's also old news, right?
59:14Like we've just seen a lot of these guys before, whereas Doyle coming from more of like what feels like a slightly
59:20newer tree with like the Ben Johnson coaching staff.
59:22It just feels slightly newer and a little bit more refreshing, even if it is a lot of the same type of principles.
59:28Yes, I 100% agree with that. All right, Baller.
59:31I think that's all we got for today. We will be back with another full slate of shows this week now that vacations are over.
59:38And by the way, Dave's on his honeymoon. Like Dave's coming back.
59:41Just letting you guys know, like Dave got married a couple weeks ago.
59:44Yeah, wait a minute. Should we say congrats, Dave?
59:47We haven't been clear about that. Congrats, Dave. Congrats, Carm.
59:50Yes. He's not back yet. We'll congratulate him when he comes back.
59:53We'll get there when he's on the show. Yeah.
59:55When he has to come to work again, we'll congratulate him.
59:58Yeah, Dave got married and he's on his honeymoon right now.
60:01So he will be back. But we now, the fact that I'm back from vacation and we're kind of settling into our off-season schedule.
60:08It'll be Monday through Thursday. Every week, essentially through the start of training camp.
60:12That is our plan right now. So no shows on Fridays.
60:15But we will have four shows a week all the way through training camp.
60:18And then when training camp starts, all bets are off.
60:21I mean, we haven't necessarily ironed those plans out yet.
60:24But you guys can expect a shitload of stuff coming your way when we get to late July.
60:29For now, that is all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening.
60:32We will talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in.
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