The Athletic Football Show artwork

We're going camping! Broncos, Chiefs, Packers and Bears

STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this podcast and kept the full transcript here for context.

1 hr 46 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Aug 29, 2026
Published
Sat, August 29, 2026
22
Player insights
18
Players mentioned
Topics
Bo NixJordan LoveKenneth Walker IIIRashee RiceChristian WatsonCyrus AllenEvan EngramJ.K. DobbinsJayden ReedJaylen WaddleJonah ColemanMarShawn LloydMarvin MimsMatthew Golden
Player analysis

Player insights

22

Bo Nix

PositiveUsage20:52

Bo Nix is entering his third year in the offense and is showing improved communication with play-caller Davis Webb, including more pre-snap motion and traffic direction at the line of scrimmage.

Insight page
PositiveRole30:49

Bo Nix is actively developing chemistry with Pat Bryant in camp, specifically targeting him as a reliable option on third downs. The Broncos are looking to reduce their high three-and-out percentage from last year, and Nix is leaning on Bryant to help move the chains in short-to-medium yardage situations.

Insight page

Christian Watson

NegativeInjury56:17

Christian Watson suffered a significant injury scare against Denver last season after a collision with Patrick Surtain, which served as a major turning point for the Packers' offense.

Insight page

Cyrus Allen

PositiveBreakout51:54

Cyrus Allen, a fifth-round rookie, has impressed the Chiefs with his shiftiness and ability to beat man coverage. While he is still learning the playbook and occasionally lines up incorrectly, his coachability and natural talent have earned him significant praise, with some suggesting he could contribute as a third or fourth receiver early on.

Insight page

Evan Engram

PositiveRole37:36

Evan Ingram has had a strong training camp and is expected to have a more defined role this season. The team plans to utilize him in the backfield and increase his involvement in the run game, aiming to improve upon his snap percentage from last year.

Insight page

J.K. Dobbins

NegativeUsage40:20

The Broncos hope J.K. Dobbins can maintain a heavy workload similar to his pre-injury form last year, when he was the league's fifth-leading rusher. However, the team intends to manage his load by incorporating Jonah Coleman, especially early in the season, to mitigate injury risk.

Insight page

Jayden Reed

PositiveRole27:42

Jaden Reed is the second most important receiver on the team, far exceeding a 'gadget' role. Despite missing time last year, he previously led the team in catches and receiving yards, and he remains a priority target in the offense.

Insight page

Jaylen Waddle

PositiveUsage27:22

Jalen Waddle is expected to boost the run game by forcing defenses to respect his speed and open up the middle of the field; he will also serve as a reliable slot target for quick completions.

Insight page

Jonah Coleman

PositiveValue40:00

Jonah Coleman is viewed as the ideal backup to J.K. Dobbins due to a similar running style that fits the team's offensive profile. He is expected to take carries to keep Dobbins fresh and serves as the primary insurance policy should Dobbins miss time.

Insight page

Jordan Love

NegativeProjection56:05

Jordan Love was performing at an MVP-caliber level last season before injuries to key teammates derailed the Packers' momentum in the final weeks.

Insight page
PositiveProjection57:47

Jordan Love is considered underrated in the current quarterback pecking order. He is exceptional at avoiding sacks and navigating dirty pockets, which elevates the potential of the entire offense.

Insight page

Kenneth Walker III

PositiveUsage39:51

Kenneth Walker is being utilized as a workhorse in practice, seeing significant volume in both the screen game and red zone, which suggests a role far beyond the two-down back usage he experienced in Seattle.

Insight page
PositiveUsage47:16

The Chiefs are adjusting their offense to better cater to Kenneth Walker's strengths, specifically by utilizing more under-center formations to create a more explosive ground game. Early preseason film shows him successfully drawing defenders downhill on play-action concepts.

Insight page

MarShawn Lloyd

NegativeInjury62:54

Marshawn Lloyd is the projected starter if the feature back is suspended, but his health is a major concern as he has played only one game in his first two years.

Insight page

Marvin Mims

PositiveUsage37:03

Marvin Mims remains a high-impact player for the Broncos whenever he is given opportunities. Despite missing some camp time, the team is committed to finding ways to utilize his playmaking ability, as evidenced by his 8-catch, 93-yard performance in the playoffs against Buffalo.

Insight page

Matthew Golden

PositiveBreakout62:45

Matthew Golden has looked awesome in camp and is now part of a defined top-three receiver rotation. While his rookie expectations were stunted by the team's tendency to spread the ball, he is now positioned for more consistent opportunities.

Insight page

Pat Bryant

NegativeBreakout32:06

Pat Bryant has been a standout in training camp, consistently earning first-team reps while teammates were sidelined. He is viewed as a physical receiver who can operate in the slot or outside as a backup to Courtland Sutton. Coaches value his ability to catch with his feet on the ground and his potential to boost yards-after-catch production, though he must improve his self-protection to avoid injury after suffering two concussions last year.

Insight page

Rashee Rice

NegativeInjury37:59

Rasheed Rice is struggling with his knee recovery, showing a lack of explosion and trust in the joint compared to last season, though there is still optimism he can regain form before the season starts.

Insight page
NegativeBust59:09

Rasheed Rice has had a concerning start to training camp, appearing sluggish in his route running while recovering from surgery. While he has shown gradual improvement, his lack of explosion is a concern for the Chiefs, who rely on him to be a YAC monster. He is not viewed as a primary man-coverage beater, making his health and explosiveness critical to his effectiveness.

Insight page

RJ Harvey

NegativeRole41:40

R.J. Harvey is projected to serve as a 'Swiss Army knife' and third-down specialist for the Broncos. While he struggled with inside-the-tackle rushing last year, he showed significant growth as a pass receiver, recording over 50 catches including the playoffs.

Insight page

Travis Kelce

PositiveUsage62:06

Travis Kelce is showing signs of losing a step, and the Chiefs are actively looking for other receivers to take on the third-down security blanket role that he has traditionally occupied. While he remains a key part of the offense, the team needs to reduce his reliance as the primary target against man coverage.

Insight page

Tucker Kraft

PositiveUsage61:52

Tucker Kraft is considered the team's best and most dangerous pass catcher. Before his injury last year, he ranked first among tight ends in yards after catch per reception and third in receiving yards, making him a primary target in the passing game.

Insight page
Full transcript

Episode Transcript

1,357
0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, our fifth and final beat writer notebook from sort of training camp coming to you guys today.
0:07I wanted to talk to a couple of beat writers where I didn't get a chance to travel to those places just
0:13because I think there's so much intrigue around those teams.
0:16We started with Nick Kosmider, our Broncos writer, caught up with Nick about Broncos team that obviously has Super Bowl aspirations.
0:22Chatted with Jesse Newell, our Chiefs writer about a pivotal season in Kansas City, one that feels a little bit different coming
0:28into the year than really any year of the Andy Reid 10 years.
0:32And then our final two training camp stops. Chatted with Matt Schneidman up in Lambeau, up in Green Bay at Lambeau Field
0:38about the Packers season and then finish things off with one of our Bears writers, Kevin Fishbane, about the outlook for this 2026 Bears team.
0:45Let's get to all of those conversations right now.
0:47Joining us now, it is our Broncos writer here at The Athletic, Nick Kosmider.
0:51Sincerely appreciate you doing this, sir. Good to see you.
0:54Good to see you too, man. Happy to be here.
0:57One of the camps I wish I could have gone to if I had the time and it wasn't completely isolated from
1:03every other NFL city and undrivable to anything else would have been the Broncos.
1:06Obviously, this is a team that has Super Bowl aspirations justifiably so.
1:10We're recording this on the same day we did the table, the contender table on the athletic football show.
1:15The Broncos, by the time you listen to this, you'll have already heard that, are at the table justifiably so.
1:21I think this is a team that their Super Bowl odds are lower than I thought I think they should be.
1:26I think overall, they're just firmly a contending team.
1:29What I want to ask you is, what are the reasons they wouldn't be as good of a team as they were last year?
1:36You guys that cover the team day to day, you see the cracks potentially.
1:39You see the weaknesses. You see the positional things that maybe we're not considering.
1:43Because from the outside, it just feels like team that was on the doorstep of the Super Bowl last year adds Jalen Waddell, wheels up, lets go.
1:51Why shouldn't that be the way that people are thinking about this team?
1:54Well, I think that largely is the right way to think about it.
1:58The one thing that you can really kind of look closely at with this team is obviously the record last year.
2:04I'm sure you guys have talked about this or I've heard you guys talk about this.
2:08You know, 11 and 2 in the regular season in one score games.
2:12Sean Payton has said since February, listen, we know that we're not going to be able to count on that kind of winning percentage in those close games.
2:20The idea is to not play in as many of them.
2:23But if they do kind of find themselves, particularly with the schedule that they have early in the season in a lot
2:29of those games, once again, I think you're just due to see some of the variance.
2:33But does that knock them down from 14 wins to like nine?
2:37I don't see that being the case inside linebacker.
2:39They brought back Alex Singleton and Justin Sternod, two guys who will not on anybody's list of like kind of the most athletic standout linebackers in the league.
2:47Certainly no Vance Joseph's defense very well behind them, though.
2:50They have virtually no experience. You know, they have a couple of rookies like Red Murdoch is in there.
2:55Karen A. Reid is a second year player, former undrafted guy.
2:58So they're not really experienced there. But every time you try to look at this roster and point to a few things,
3:04Robert, it just it feels like you're nitpicking because of the fact that, to your point, you look out on this field.
3:10We look at it every day. And I was just looking at the defense yesterday and you're like, man, this secondary, especially
3:16the way Riley Moss is playing in this camp.
3:19I just really don't know how you attack this team defensively.
3:22And so for me, that is where it starts.
3:24Maybe they're a little bit less deep along the defensive line without John Franklin Myers.
3:28But again, I think that's that's stuff you're nitpicking.
3:31The fact that the first thing you mentioned about what might be a relative weakness of this team is linebacker depth.
3:37When half the teams we're talking about the league don't have to starting linebackers, period.
3:41I think it just speaks to overall the quality of roster here.
3:44And they didn't do much this offseason. Right. This is a team that really just added Jalen Waddle like that and had
3:50a pretty paltry draft class in part because they didn't have a first round pick.
3:54But I think part of the reason that that's OK and you can kind of gloss over it is the roster was
4:00good enough that by just adding Jalen Waddle, you've made a championship caliber roster.
4:04I think that's kind of where I land with this.
4:07Yeah. And they brought. Yeah, it was funny because they had a lot of free agents.
4:12And so a lot of people kind of thought, you know, whether it was Alex Singleton and Justin Sternad, Adam Troutman, the
4:18tight end like that, that had the opportunity to maybe in the minds of some fans here thought they should upgrade at
4:24a couple of those types of positions. But they really are just leaning into the continuity thing like this is for Vance Joseph.
4:30It's his fourth year as a defensive coordinator, but really third year with most of the guys on this defense.
4:36And they just really have this second hand that they know.
4:39You mentioned John Franklin Myers. That was my concern kind of going into this camp as well.
4:43A guy that had 14 and a half sacks combined the past two years who really helped Zach Allen turn into an all pro.
4:50That defensive line has been like maybe the strongest unit that they've had in camp.
4:54Malcolm Roach, who started to actually play more than Franklin Myers in the second half of last season.
4:59He's had a phenomenal camp. And you're going to hear this name.
5:02N.A. Uwazurike this year. He's a guy that I think is going to play a lot for them.
5:07Former fourth round pick out of Iowa State got suspended for a year earlier in his career for gambling.
5:13He's now back and he's been just really excellent after kind of finishing the season strong.
5:17So even even places where they did kind of maybe lose something, they just really kind of loaded up with the depth from these last few draft classes.
5:25Where are we at with the Jonathan Cooper situation?
5:27Like is the thought that he is going to get suspended?
5:30I'm sure that you've been following that closely. What's the latest that you have about that?
5:35Just for context for people, we're recording this on August 20th.
5:38And so it's going to be a little bit of a gap between when we record it and when it's released.
5:44If there's any massive changes, we'll talk about it in the intro.
5:47But just keep that in mind as you're listening to this conversation that it's going to be about a week since we
5:53had it when you guys are going to be hearing this.
5:56Yeah. Jonathan Cooper is due to have an arraignment in his case on August 31st.
6:00Obviously, that's kind of right after cutdowns. But he obviously was arrested twice in June, facing some pretty serious charges, one of
6:06which was a second degree felony assault charge. Due to an incident with his then girlfriend was arrested a second time for allegedly violating a protective order.
6:14The Broncos excused him from minicamp in the light of that.
6:17But when training camp began again, he's been out there.
6:20And, you know, the two things can sort of be true.
6:23He is certainly dealing with this situation. He's also been, you know, very good in training camp.
6:28So I think that the Broncos are the Sean Payton said at the very start of camp, they're sort of letting the league's process guide the way.
6:35We do know that the league is within its investigation right now of this incident.
6:39And so I think the Broncos are certainly preparing for the possibility that he could be suspended.
6:44And you look at the baseline suspension, that would probably be six games.
6:47And no two incidents are obviously the same. But that would kind of probably be the expectation is that's where it would start.
6:54And that, of course, falls in line with the, you know, kind of the hardest part of your schedule when you're talking
7:00about, you know, the Chiefs, the Jaguars, the Rams, 49ers, Chargers, Seahawks in that in that six game stretch.
7:05So that's something that they've been preparing for themselves for.
7:08But they have been, you know, standing with Cooper.
7:10He's been in camp. So they're kind of just letting the letting the league's investigation sort of lead their lead their actions with Cooper.
7:17My assumption would be if he does miss those six games, they'll just lean on Jonah Ellis more than they would have previously.
7:23Is that likely what's going to happen if Cooper does miss time?
7:27Yeah. And even if he doesn't, Vance Joseph brought this up the other day.
7:31He's like, I looked at the end of the season last year.
7:34And one of the things I kind of kicked myself for is we didn't play Jonah Ellis enough.
7:39And there was even talk early in this offseason about moving him to inside linebacker.
7:43They kind of went away from that, just kind of digging in deeper and saying he's too good on the edge to play full time at inside linebacker.
7:51But I do think they'll create some some packages for him where he's playing inside just to get him on the field more.
7:57He's been really excellent camp. He's fully healthy. But then another name to watch is Q Robinson.
8:02He was their fourth round pick out of Alabama last year.
8:05He had a sack of Drake May in the AFC championship game.
8:08So as a second year player, this was a guy that had to play behind Will Turner.
8:13I'm sorry, Will Anderson and Dallas Turner at Alabama.
8:16So hasn't necessarily gotten that opportunity. And then behind Nick Benito and Jonathan Cooper last year, he's had a fantastic camp.
8:21And they're really high on on him being able to be an impact player for them in that outside linebacker rotation this year.
8:28Any sort of layers that you see them trying to add to the defense this year, whether it's schematic, whether it's personnel
8:34usage, because when you have so much continuity, I think that's always my question is, what are you going to tweak to kind of stay a step ahead?
8:42How is the defense going to feel maybe a little bit harder to pin down and maybe feel a little bit different?
8:48Even units that carry over a ton of their personnel from season to season, you need to iterate to make sure you're staying at that level.
8:55And so I'm just curious, based on either what you've seen or what they've said, what do you think those couple levers
9:01or tweaks might be for this version of the Broncos defense?
9:04Yeah, well, this team has so much continuity. They did make some changes on the coaching staff.
9:09Jim Leonard, who was their passing game coordinator, went to Buffalo to become the D.C.
9:13for the Bills. The Broncos brought in Rob Livingston, who was a longtime defensive backs coach in Cincinnati, spent the last two
9:19years up the road in Boulder as a defensive coordinator for Deion Sanders at CU.
9:23Vance Joseph said the other day, like Livingston has brought in a lot of like a lot of new ideas.
9:29It's our same defense, but he's kind of put a twist on it that's helped us in the secondary.
9:34And he mentioned Livingston being really good for Riley Moss, like kind of Riley Moss.
9:38If you look at it last year, he faced more targets than any any corner in the league, had the penalty issues, but but otherwise really played well.
9:46He's been even better. And I think they attribute a lot of that.
9:49Vance Joseph said to to Livingston's influence. The thing I'm curious about, to your point about the different kind of things that
9:56they can do is how do they use Jaday Barron?
9:58It's such an interesting thing with him. Yeah. Here's a guy who was a first round pick, number 20th overall pick in the draft last year.
10:06And I think a lot of people assumed, hey, there's your nickel.
10:09Jaquan McMillan was going into the final year of his deal at the time, had kind of had a so-so 2024 season.
10:15You say you draft this guy in the first round.
10:18He's going to be your nickel. Well, McMillan had a great training camp, won that job kind of easily, and then obviously
10:24had a fantastic year as Denver's nickel last year, capped with the, you know, the kind of the all time interception in
10:30the in the playoff win against the Bills. So Barron kind of just played dime last year.
10:35They found some opportunities when Pastor Tan went down, for example, for three games to have him play outside.
10:40He even experimented a little bit at safety. They're playing him all over the field defensively, but he does not have a
10:46true like he doesn't have a true starting. He's got a great spot going into year two as a former first round pick.
10:52And again, that's not a knock on on Barron.
10:55I think he's he's clearly made strides in the second camp.
10:58He had the pick six in the in the preseason opener.
11:01He's been actually, I think, really good. It's just a matter of like there's not a spot for this guy.
11:06And with Jay Mack and Riley Moss both going into contract years, it's really interesting to me how that's going to pan
11:13out and what you're going to do with Barron.
11:15I think using him, finding different ways to kind of have him be your your chess piece.
11:20That that to me is the big wrinkle on that defense that I'm just curious to see what what Vance Joseph and what Robert Livingston do with him.
11:27Let's keep going with wrinkles. The play caller wrinkles to me may be the most interesting one with this entire team.
11:33Let's start with the dynamics of this as you've learned more about it or sat with it.
11:38What is your understanding for why this even happened?
11:41Because I don't think you and I have talked since they announced that this was going to happen way back in the winter.
11:47Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we were like ran into each other like at the combine, like leaving there.
11:52That's right. Yes. Yeah. It was like the convention center.
11:55You and I were just like standing outside being like, what is this all about?
11:59Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was it's funny because it's one of those things that there were murmurs of it.
12:05Right. John Payton fired Joe Lombardi, his longtime offensive coordinator, and then quickly promoted Davis Webb into that role.
12:10And right away there was this thought of like, hey, this was a guy that got play calling OC interviews.
12:16He got head coaching interviews like there's no way that he's taking this job without being able to call plays.
12:21Right. But the Broncos didn't announce it at the time.
12:24And there was you talked to we talked to former Saints players.
12:27People have been around Peyton said there's no way that he's actually going to give up play calling.
12:32Like it's just been who he's been since he's been a head coach.
12:36And even before that, obviously. But there's there's just no way.
12:39But I think that Davis Webb, since he came into this building in 2023, has just made an impression not only on
12:45on Peyton, but but deeper throughout the building in terms of just kind of where he's going and the way that his mind works.
12:52And I think the last two years, the growth that he's helped Bo Nix have in terms of the grasping of the
12:58offense, you know, they just saw somebody who they thought could help elevate him to an to an even bigger level.
13:04And some of what you've seen with with Davis Webb and Bo Nix is and part of this is it's Bo Nix's third year in the offense.
13:11So he wasn't probably ready to take some of this.
13:14But now they're they're having a lot more time in the in the communication headset where they're finishing the play call.
13:20And and Davis Webb has given him a few little tags, a few little like reminders.
13:24Sometimes Bo Nix said it's even just sort of a joke to cut the tension.
13:28They've been able to communicate a little bit more in that in that condensed window than I think Sean Payton and Bo Nix were.
13:35And how you quantify that, how it ultimately makes a difference that we kind of have to actually get to the games to know that.
13:42But but I think it's clear that they have they have some things that they're doing just based on the communication of
13:48things that will give them more at the line of scrimmage possibilities.
13:51But before the snap, I think that's going to be one thing to watch.
13:55But yeah, it has been fascinating. I think Davis has has taken it.
13:59But, you know, talking to teammates of our talking to Broncos players about Davis Webb, like they thought, OK, you're done with
14:05Sean Payton, this kind of hard O about everything.
14:07Webb has been as a guy who just played in the league like three years ago, has been all over these guys
14:13in a way that I think they've ultimately come to appreciate.
14:16So it's I cannot wait to get to the season and see what it's going to look like.
14:21So interesting. It feels similar in terms of what's the thought process behind this?
14:25What are the potential benefits of it? It reminds me of hearing about the thought process in Carolina where you are going
14:31to an offensive coordinator that was there and is now the play caller instead of the head coach.
14:36And they're they were they've said the same sort of things where Brett Edzig is in the meetings with Bryce all week.
14:43Right. And so when you're talking about certain coaching points of, you know, what we're looking for with this route for this
14:49reason, we're talking about it on Tuesday. And so in the moment when you're calling the play, it's like, hey, you know,
14:55remember, we're looking for this on this. Like even just something like that, that little bit of context.
15:00It sounds like that's the exact same thinking where because they're working with each other the entire week, that dialogue is just more consistent.
15:06There's a little bit more shared experience when it comes to like what those game planning moments looked like.
15:12And there's potential benefits in that. So I think we have two scenarios in the league that are really similar, I think,
15:18in why teams made this decision and what they think they could get from it.
15:22Yeah, absolutely. And I think I wrote a story actually with Joe Person, our Panthers writer, about first time play callers.
15:28And it kind of traces like, you know, what goes into it and why they represent such like obviously an uncertainty, but
15:34also so much promise because you have these guys that have played the position so recently that come in.
15:39And you're absolutely right about him being with with Bo Nix all week.
15:43But it's also that he's been with Bo Nix for two years.
15:46So they just have they just have a shorthand in the way that they communicate with one another that you can see.
15:52It's I'm not saying it's, you know, like it's not telepathic.
15:55They're not just communicating an entire play call, which is like a wink or something like that.
16:00But they really do seemingly have this connection. And then from the offense itself, I think you're going to see a lot more motion with this team.
16:07They were, I think, a little bit static at times pre snap last year, you know, and obviously you limited in personnel
16:13stuff that you can report during training camp. But I think it's very I think it is easy to say that this
16:19is going to be a team that moves a little bit more, more motion, you know, kind of giving the defense more
16:26things to look at before the snap. I think it's just, again, Bo Nix being in his third year, being able to
16:32handle and direct that kind of traffic a little bit more.
16:35That's one thing, I think, to watch out for with Davis Webb.
16:38And Jalen Waddell's been back in practice for a few days now, correct?
16:42Correct. Yeah. We're recording this on Thursday, Wednesday's practice of training camp.
16:45He did something that I've seen very few times the last four or five years, which is absolutely got the better of
16:51Pat Sertan on a 60-yard deep ball from Bo Nix.
16:54And to talk to Pat Sertan after he was scheduled to talk to the media that day.
16:59And this poor guy, you would think that he had just been a total bum that just gives him a little bit.
17:05Because it's such a rare occurrence. We're just like, wait, Pat, this actually happened kind of thing.
17:09So, no, Waddell looks, he looks, I mean, again, they've been cautious with a lot of veterans.
17:14They've given a lot more veteran days than we've seen in the past.
17:18This team's getting a little bit older. That's been part of the process.
17:21So, I don't think it was anything significant for Waddell.
17:24And he certainly looked the part as recently as Tuesday this week.
17:27When you think about usage and what he's going to bring to the offense, do you feel like it's him mostly taking
17:33over the same roles we've seen get filled by guys like Marvin Mims?
17:37Is the way they're deploying him seemingly a little bit different than the stuff that you've seen?
17:42What do you think the J1 Waddell effect on the offense overall is supposed to look like?
17:46And what do you think it's going to look like?
17:49You know, it's interesting. As soon as that trade happened, one of the first things I heard from somebody in the building
17:55was, watch what this does for the run game.
17:58And I think they faced so many heavy boxes last year that they think that his speed and the ability to kind
18:04of work him in the middle to really make you think twice about the way that you're stacking up the box, that's where they see real opportunity.
18:11Of course, he's going to catch a ton of balls.
18:14They're going to use him in a lot of these different, you know, mesh routes that they like to run so often.
18:20But I think that's one aspect to look at is just how well can he be on the field to have you
18:26disguise, run and pass and then be a guy that they really have to account for.
18:31That was sort of the first thing. I think just also having a guy consistently in the slot to get open quickly.
18:37I think that's one thing that they maybe missed a little bit last year was having just that that route runner that
18:43you can count on, you know, third and short, third and medium, whatever it might be to say, hey, I know this
18:49guy is going to get open for me. That's that's where you kind of see him and Bo Nix, I think, trying
18:55to develop that in camp to where, you know, hey, this is this is coming to you.
19:00We can count on this as sort of an automatic for a team that for for all their success last year.
19:06One thing that they had way too many of was three and outs.
19:09I think they were toward the top of the league and three and out percentage.
19:13And when they would get rolling, they'd be fine.
19:16But I think he's going to help them avoid some of these early, you know, third down issues that they have, particularly early in football games.
19:23From all that I've heard and obviously this is when from afar, this can happen where there's just a drumbeat about the quality of a player's training camp.
19:31Pat Bryant is just Jerry Rice now. Yeah. Yeah.
19:33Jerry Rice or like some some version of Rod Smith that's been here before.
19:37Yeah, it's been wild. Part of it is he, you know, you mentioned Jalen Waddell missed a little bit of time.
19:43Marvin Mims missed a little bit of time in camp.
19:46So all of a sudden, Pat Bryant's just getting like every rep with with the first team.
19:51And every single day he has been, you know, I tried to stiff arm a lot of this camp hyperbole as well.
19:57Because it just it can feed itself, as you know, like it can all of a sudden a guy has a good day.
20:03And now we just sort of decided he's having a great camp.
20:06But it has been every day for Pat Bryant.
20:09It's not one of these things like, oh, yeah, like he had a great start to camp.
20:14So we're just sort of remembering that as a great camp.
20:17No, it's it's every single day, you know, with him.
20:19And so it was no surprise when their very first, you know, 15 yard completion to start Friday's preseason game went to Pat Bryant.
20:26I think the thing they like so much about him is he's so physical in the run game.
20:31So he's a guy that you can have on the field a lot.
20:35He can kind of be that big slot for you.
20:37But he can also play on the outside and kind of be Cortland Sutton's true, true backup in those situations.
20:43You know, Vance Joseph said it like he he Sean Payton loves that.
20:46He catches the ball with his feet on the ground, which is as great as Cortland Sutton is.
20:51Sometimes that's not always his his like strong suit.
20:54They believe that Pat Bryant, along with Jalen Waddle, can give them a lot more yards after the catch this year, which
21:00was another thing they were sort of missing from their offense a year ago.
21:04So he's got to stay healthy. Had two concussions last year and he does play.
21:08He kind of has this fearless brand where he doesn't always protect himself.
21:12So that's got to, I think, be sort of part of the part of the coaching points with him.
21:17But he's been excellent as he starts his second year.
21:20Do you think we see a lot of all of them together?
21:23And if we see a lot of all three of those guys together, like what are the roles look like?
21:29Is it where Bryant and Waddle have inside out flex?
21:31Do we think that if Waddle is out there, Bryant won't be like how much 11 personnel do you think they can play with those three?
21:39And do you feel like they can all kind of coexist in a way that feels cohesive?
21:43Yeah, I do. I think it's what you said.
21:46I think Bryant and Waddle both have a lot of inside out flex and they use them in the slot in different ways.
21:52Their route trees in there are different. You know, Bryant last year really became kind of like, especially like the last third
21:58of the year, like a really counted on slot guy or slant guy out of the slot that the Bo Nix really started to gain some trust.
22:06And I think I wrote it the other day that he became he became their second biggest third down target behind Courtland
22:12Sutton in the second half of the last year, which was sort of an illustration of the trust that Bo Nix was gaining in him.
22:19So I do think that you're going to see all three of those guys in 11 personnel.
22:23But then you also have Marvin Mims, who's who I think is he's such an interesting guy because every time they have
22:30to have, you know, something from him, he delivers it.
22:32I mean, the Buffalo game in the playoffs was a perfect example.
22:36They're they're they're injured. They're with or without Pat Bryant.
22:38Troy Franklin gets hurt like they're just down to.
22:41I mean, little Jordan Humphrey had a touchdown in that game because they just were so down receivers and Mims catches, you
22:47know, eight balls on eight targets for 93 yards.
22:49They want to continue to find him ways. And I think they just it's sort of an embarrassment of riches if if
22:56everybody's healthy in that, you know, even Evan Ingram has quietly had a very good training camp.
23:00He and Davis Webb go back. They were both rookies with the Giants in 2017, which is kind of funny to think about.
23:07But, you know, Evans the other day sitting here talking about how, you know, when when Davis was in the quarterback's room
23:13with Eli Manning in 2017, he's basically like, you know, help him break down the scouting report for everything.
23:18Like he was a coach already basically as a rookie.
23:21So I think you've seen Davis and Evan having that kind of again, that that sort of knowledge of one another's game
23:27so closely that he's he's going to kind of have a role, too.
23:30I think you'll see him Ingram, that is even in the backfield a little bit.
23:35You know, I think they want to have him be more involved in the run game.
23:39Now he's got to actually show that he can do that because that was a part of the reason that he didn't
23:45play nearly as much percentage of snaps wise last year as he had been in Jacksonville.
23:50So I think they want to find ways to get him on the field more often this year, too.
23:55Speaking of the backfield, this last question I had for you, what does that mix look like?
24:00Jonah Coleman had a really nice start to his preseason.
24:02How much is he going to be involved there?
24:05If J.K. Dobbins gets hurt, do we think that Jonah Coleman is actually going to be the guy who gets more of
24:11the workload just because of how up and down R.J.
24:14Harvey's rookie season was? Like, what is your sense for how that trio of guys looks right now and what the mix
24:20might be when we actually get into it? Yeah, I think the ideal scenario for them right now is that J.K.
24:26Dobbins continues to be healthy and he has that heavy workload that he had last year when he went down week 10.
24:32I think he was the league's fifth leading rusher at the time and then have Jonah Coleman, who kind of has a
24:38very similar run style and kind of fits the profile for a lot of the runs they want to do with Dobbins.
24:44I think you can slot Jonah Coleman into that.
24:46So I think that their idea would be to have him be the true backup, I guess, as far as a runner.
24:52And then, you know, obviously try to maybe especially early in the season, lessen J.K.
24:57Dobbins loads a little bit by having Jonah Coleman take some of those carries.
25:00And then I think R.J. Harvey is going to turn into your kind of like, you know, your your Swiss Army knife,
25:07your third down guy, your your two minute. He's really as much as he was up and down last year, particularly when
25:13it came to like, you know, rushing inside the tackles.
25:15He he really grew as a pass receiver, ended up with over 50 ball, 50 catches when you include the playoffs, had
25:22a couple of really big ones late in the season.
25:24So so I think he can kind of be there, you know, Sproles type player.
25:28If you're looking at it from the perspective of what Sean's Sean Payton's offenses had in New Orleans, I think he could
25:35be that kind of player for them. That would be their ideal.
25:38So but but I think the biggest thing Jonah Coleman brings is that if J.K.
25:42Dobbins does get hurt, which unfortunately has been a common occurrence for him in his career, even though he pinky promised us
25:48at the start of camp that he's going to play all 17 games, that that you would have somebody in Coleman who
25:54can come in and sort of just be a more natural kind of fit to take his place in the event that he misses games.
26:01Nick Cosmider, always great to hear from you, sir.
26:04Sincerely appreciate the insight. We'll talk to you again very soon.
26:07Thanks a lot, Robert. Appreciate it. Joining us now, it is our chief's writer here at the Athletic, Jesse Newell.
26:12Jesse, how you doing, man? Doing great. Doing great.
26:15How about yourself? Doing well. Excited to dig into this conversation.
26:18Obviously, it's been a unique offseason for the Kansas City Chiefs, I think, in a bunch of different ways.
26:23I want to start with so we're recording this on August 20th.
26:26I think it was yesterday where somebody at a press conference, I don't know what the inspiration for it was, asked a
26:32question that it pretty much posed to Andy Reid like, hey, what does it feel like for people to think you're going
26:39to be bad on offense seemingly for the first time ever?
26:42And so I'm just curious, based on what happened last year, some of the potential changes we're going to see this year,
26:48what the overall kind of feeling is around what the Chiefs offense has to change and how much faith we have in
26:54those things getting changed based on what you've seen early in training camp.
26:57Yeah, who asked him that question? We've got to look around on that one.
27:01I don't know. I'm not even influenced by my athletic football show, Robert Mays picking the Chiefs with his favorite offenses, but
27:07just not really wanting to do it, not being totally sold on it.
27:11So I would never presume to think that. There was like a 5% in the back of my mind being like, I
27:17wonder if what I said about them during the show inspired a question that was led to that answer.
27:22So the fact that that actually is true is funny because I was like, maybe I don't think I have that much influence, but maybe.
27:29So now I'm a little bit uncomfortable about it, but thank you.
27:33No, it's OK. I asked the question. So we're all good here.
27:36It is so fascinating with the Chiefs, just as you said, because of that dynamic, which is, you know, I think in
27:42the comments section of that story, there was one person like Andy Reed should never face this question.
27:47He's a Hall of Fame coach. He's better than everyone else out there.
27:51And then someone else saying, oh, my God, finally, somebody asked Andy Reed this question.
27:55He's been coasting by for so long. So it is an interesting dynamic in Kansas City.
27:59And yeah, the more I think the more national and local you get, if you will, you hear this sort of criticism of Andy Reed.
28:06Hey, is the offense coming back? Are they asking Patrick Williams to do too much?
28:10Is this thing modern enough? Do coaches sometimes lose their touch, as we've seen in the past, even, you know, last year with Pete Carroll or whatever?
28:18These coaches, you know, you go, you get old very quickly.
28:21So his response was sort of interesting. I thought he said nobody's bigger.
28:24Nobody's more critical or has more critical eye than I do.
28:27And so the things you talked about changing in the podcast and the things I think that the Chiefs you would think
28:33would go more towards, we've seen that in training camp.
28:36We've seen more under center stuff. We've seen them sort of cater to Kenneth Walker's strengths as a running back and try
28:42to get more explosion in the run game. I know one thing from that discussion with Andy Reed.
28:47And interesting enough, he does this every year with the beat writers.
28:51He does it in his de facto dorm room office in Missouri Western.
28:54And so it's a cool setup because you've got about, you know, 50 square feet in there and then you and eight writers and Andy Reed.
29:01But he's talking about what's so interesting. If you go back to the film of the first preseason game against the Rams, the Chiefs did a play action.
29:09It was Kenneth Walker's only rush of the game or only play of the game.
29:13They play action to Kenneth Walker and that inside linebacker immediately flowed downhill.
29:17Andy Reed told us, I like that. I didn't see that a year ago.
29:21I didn't see that second level defender moving like that.
29:24And they believe that can open things up. So I do think there's some tweaks.
29:28They had a long, long offseason in Chiefs standards to be able to figure some things out.
29:32But I do think some of those changes you guys have been talking about, they're coming to the Kansas City Chiefs.
29:38We'll just see how effective they're going to be.
29:41We've talked so much about the explosion necessary in the run game.
29:44And I think going under center, we've talked about it a lot in regard to the Bengals, how going under center can
29:50make you more explosive on the ground because there are only so many concepts you can run from the gun.
29:56So beyond adding Kenneth Walker to the mix, going under center, I think, potentially gives you a more explosive ground game.
30:02So the fact that they're coming at it from two directions, I believe in that part happening.
30:06And I think if you're going to be under center, you're going to use more play action because you have to, right?
30:12It's the only way for that all to come together.
30:15So that part I see, I respect, and I believe in what that's going to look like.
30:20My big issue, and I think an issue that a lot of people have brought up if you have some reservations about
30:26this team, the receiving core is the same, right?
30:28For the most part, we're relying on the same guys that trotted out a year ago.
30:33So on early downs, we can be more explosive under center with Kenneth Walker.
30:37When it's third and seven, teams are still going to be playing a lot of man coverage and challenging this group because
30:43of the limitations that they showed last year. So whether it's based on what you've seen or what you've asked, why should
30:49we anticipate the passing game being more capable in some of those situations than they were a year ago if all the
30:55pass catchers are going to be the same? It's a really good question.
30:59I think you can bank on a little bit of the pass catchers being improved or better.
31:03Now, it's not the skill type you're talking about because I know we talked to the combine when you were saying this chiefs team needs a Juwan Jennings.
31:11They need that guy and then they didn't go get that guy.
31:14Yeah, yeah. So the one change in personnel is Cyrus Allen and he's a fifth round pick, but he has impressed in
31:21camp with some of the quick movement stuff, the man beating stuff, the thing that has been their bugaboo over time.
31:26So there's potentially a little hope with that. Again, it's a rookie.
31:30So you think that's real? You think this is beyond like normal camp hype for a day three pick?
31:35Like you think he can be more involved than a fifth round pick typically would be?
31:39Or are we pulling back the reins on that a little bit?
31:43So I've got a great anecdote from Andy Reid here, and this is what I feel.
31:47So I feel like the chiefs coaches ask a lot of their receivers.
31:51They've been getting Cyrus to do all the different positions, which is great for him getting on the field, but also tough
31:57for him to learn everything and to be able to know all of that stuff and have all that knowledge in you.
32:03And you've gone through the past with the chiefs.
32:05I mean, Rasheed Rice had a good rookie season.
32:08It was late in his rookie season. Xavier Worthy had a good rookie season.
32:12It was late in his rookie season. It takes those guys some time.
32:15But a great anecdote from Andy Reid. He said that in the preseason game against the Rams that Cyrus Allen went out there.
32:22He lined up in the wrong spot. They run the play.
32:25Mahomes throws it to him anyway for a completion.
32:27So it's the perfect thing for me of where Cyrus is.
32:30You're talking about, is this real? Like what is real for this?
32:34I mean, you know, fifth round pick. He's not poking to Kula.
32:37OK, we can stop there. But like somebody was giving me the comparison of like Stefan Diggs and his rookie year, what he did.
32:44And it was somewhere around 50 catches, 500 yards.
32:46I mean, if you can give them an element and hey, a safety valve against man coverage, that's not Travis Kelsey anymore.
32:52That's a big deal for them. But my question is exactly what I just talked about, which is this is an offense that is so built on details.
33:00It's so built on preciseness. It's so built on.
33:02We have to have you in the right spot for Patrick Mahomes.
33:06And he has to trust you being there. That is that going to happen with Cyrus Allen?
33:10And in the preseason, you let him play through.
33:13Oh, you didn't line up exactly right. In the regular season, there's just not as much appetite for that sort of thing.
33:19So I think it's an interesting dynamic. I do think the shiftiness, the speed that he really didn't test to in college is real.
33:26How much will that be in this first year?
33:28I don't know. But I do think the upside is high for him.
33:32And to your earlier point, it is something that they don't have and something that this receiving course needed for a while.
33:38Yeah, I don't need for him to be Puka Nakua like that.
33:41I don't that's not for me. It's more like, is he going to be when we look at the snap count at
33:47the end of the year and the routes run?
33:50Is he going to be within spitting distance of Xavier Worthy and Rishi Rice?
33:54Is he going to be like the third most used receiver on the team?
33:58Is he going to be in the mix and in the rotation?
34:01If that is going to happen, that's more than enough for you to feel good about him bringing a different element to
34:07the groups that they've had over the last couple of years.
34:10And it sounds like there's a possibility of him being that level of player and contributor early on.
34:15Yeah, they're impressed by him. They like him. And a lot of their rookies, what's interesting about this particular class is you
34:21talk about him, Peter Woods, Emmitt Johnson, Montser Delane coming with a trying to get the right word, like a humble, ready to learn sort of attitude.
34:29I mean, these guys with the Chiefs, they rave about Cyrus's ability to like take coaching and improve himself and not be resistant to it.
34:36And, you know, I'm not sure if they've had that in the past with some guys and maybe it's limited their growth,
34:42but the fact that they're talking about that with him so far, I think is a positive sign.
34:47But it gets to the whole puzzle with this, which for the Chiefs is it's fine if he's your third or fourth receiver.
34:53If you can rely on Rasheed Rice to be on the field, if you can rely on Xavier Worthy to not get
34:59hurt and run the full route tree, if you can rely on Taequann Thornton to be your field spacer.
35:04But the question becomes, what if one or two of those guys gets hurt?
35:08Then what are you asking Cyrus Allen to do?
35:11And then is it too much for a rookie, again, who's still trying to figure out what position he's in, where he
35:17needs to line up on the field and have all those things happen and then go run a route without thinking?
35:23That's the big thing in the Chiefs offense. Once you can go do things and let your natural ability show without thinking, you're in a great spot.
35:30It just normally takes about half a season for those guys.
35:33Maybe Cyrus Allen is the exception. So let's talk about a couple of those other guys, because for all of the rave
35:39reviews about Cyrus Allen coming out of training camp, for as good as it sounds like his camp has gone, from the
35:45outside, it feels like Rasheed Rice has been on the exact other end of that.
35:49Has Rasheed Rice's showing so far and the expectations for Rasheed Rice been as bad as I have been led to believe
35:56it has been based on the very little I have read about his time so far in training camp?
36:01So the videos are not good if you look at some of the separation stuff.
36:05Like the very first, I'm sure you saw it, like the first post route he ran in the first practice.
36:11It looked like he was feet in quicksand. It has gotten better since then.
36:14And I think the Chiefs internally, their hope is that it keeps getting better and that you're working through this thing.
36:20And he is a ramp up period. You know, he still is getting in game shape.
36:25He's having to trust in you. I think that very first day in the videos you saw, it's a guy that was
36:31going out there like this thing just got surgically repaired.
36:34I didn't really get a full rehab like I would have at the team facility because I was in jail.
36:39Well, I don't know how this thing is going to respond.
36:42I know you have to laugh about that. It's a true sentence.
36:45So I just said it. But that sort of thing is like, do I trust this thing?
36:50Do I trust it? And it did not look like that first day he trusted.
36:54It's gotten gradually better. What's so interesting about the Chiefs this year in the whole NFL training camp just ended for the Chiefs.
37:01And yet it's like three and a half weeks until they play a game.
37:05So there's still time here for him to get that back at the explosion.
37:08The other thing I would caveat it with is, you know, I just said it earlier.
37:13Rasheed Rice is not a beat man coverage guy.
37:15He's a throw out on the flat and have him bowl over to other guys and gain 12 yards and be the yak monster of these bends.
37:23So they need somebody else. The yin to the yang.
37:26They need a Cyrus Allen type. They need to move away from Travis Kelsey having to be that third down security blanket
37:32for Patrick Mahomes every single time because he is losing a step.
37:35You know, father time comes from us all for us all.
37:38But yeah, I think he can still thrive in the Chiefs offense because they love what he does and how he turns
37:44into a running back after he catches and how he bowls guys over.
37:48And he can still be effective at that if somebody else is taking on some of these other roles that they need.
37:54So that's where Cyrus and him can play into each other and potentially help each other out.
37:59But as far as Rasheed Rice goes, it has not looked pretty.
38:02If the explosion doesn't come back, it's a concern.
38:04But I do think there's enough time for it to come back.
38:08And it would make sense why he's not trusting this knee as he might have a season ago.
38:13I think the other reason for potential optimism with this team is that the offensive line, in theory, should be better this
38:19year because mostly because it should be healthier. Right.
38:21And so how Josh Simmons has just been good to go from day one here?
38:25Yeah, he's he's been good to go. He's been out in the last couple of days with a back ailment.
38:31But it's weird with these Chiefs injuries like they don't see any of them as very severe.
38:36OK, everybody should be good for week one. Again, it's one of those camp things like, hey, let's give him a couple of days.
38:42The thing about Josh Simmons is so he is a freak athletically freak.
38:46He added a little bit of weight coming back into camp.
38:49He's not the normal 310, 320 type, you know, the anchor in your butt to keep you anchored down.
38:54But I mean, he's so freaky athletically that they feel good about his potential and what he could become.
38:59But I think you're right, Robert. I mean, when you talk about the Chiefs, I remember going back to the combine and
39:06Brett Veach talking to us and saying for the Chiefs, they need to focus on their interior three and becoming more of a downhill run team.
39:13And you talk about Kingsley Somatia, who had a great year left guard after he moved from left tackle.
39:18Creed Humphrey, all pro. Trey Smith, one of the richest right guards in NFL history.
39:22Those guys need to not be as much RPO.
39:25Can I hold on to the guy? Can I keep him here sort of thing?
39:29They need to get downhill and knock somebody on their butt.
39:32And so that's more what the Chiefs are looking into this year.
39:35Plus, you have a guy with vision now when he comes to Kenneth Walker and being able to see some scenes.
39:41And I am going to give you great news, Robert, based off of a recent podcast, which is if I could not
39:47be higher from Hope Your League is a PPR or at least half PPR, because they are throwing screens all over the
39:53place to Kenneth Walker in practice and also in the red zone.
39:57They're handing it to him all the time. So this is not like a two down back roll like he had in Seattle.
40:03They are looking to get him the ball and make him a workhorse.
40:07And so he could win some fantasy leagues this year as long as he stays healthy.
40:11But a lot of that will be him being behind the best offensive line he's ever been behind.
40:16That should be this Chiefs team if they can stay healthy as well.
40:20Oh, that's my song, baby. I appreciate that. That's exactly what I like to hear.
40:24The question I have along the offensive line, what's going on at right tackle?
40:28Because my assumption was just that Jalen Moore was probably going to get that job.
40:32But it sounds like that's maybe a little bit more unsettled than you might have thought coming into training camp.
40:37It's been really weird. And you talk about this offensive line being a strength.
40:41I agree with that. It's a strength if it's healthy.
40:44And we saw last year they weren't healthy and it really was a weakness.
40:48This year, the interior. I think there's a lot of question marks there because what's happened is when their right guard has
40:54been out, when Trey Smith, they've moved one of those two tackles in Jalen Moore or Khalil Benson to right guard.
41:00And then when Josh Simmons has been out, they've moved one of those guys to left tackle.
41:04So you're really trying to settle this right tackle battle for the Chiefs.
41:08And yet they keep trying to basically say, well, we like these six guys better than anybody else.
41:13If there's an injury, we're going to sub these guys over here.
41:16But it's like, wait a minute. You need a right tackle.
41:19You need to. If you are going to start Khalil Benson game one, Khalil Benson, undrafted rookie free agent of Indiana.
41:25Not only that, he was a tryout guy. He showed up at Chiefs rookie minicamp.
41:29They called him, said, hey, you want to come try out with 100 other guys?
41:33He said, sure. And he makes these one of three that signs among 100 guys that show up to camp.
41:39I looked this up and you'll appreciate this, Robert, from True Media.
41:42I looked it up since 2000. There have been two other undrafted rookies who have started as a rookie at tackle in the NFL.
41:49Two of them. One had major off field issues.
41:51The other guy had an injury in camp where he had to step in for the other guy who was injured.
41:57This never happened. Was Lyle Collins? What's that? Was Lyle Collins one of them?
42:01I'll pull up the list for you and we can put it in the notes.
42:05But I did pull up. One was with the Chargers and one was with the Vikings.
42:10Oh, interesting. OK. It was craziness just to kind of go back and be like, this never happens.
42:15And this is a tryout guy. So it's unprecedented if the Chiefs are going to do this sort of thing and put
42:21Khalil Benson in a right tackle to start. Jalen Moore's had a good last week or so.
42:26I think they're going to go with the veteran.
42:28I think they're going to stick with him. And then that would allow Khalil Benson to be some interior depth for them,
42:34just in case the worst case scenario happens. But this thing is not officially settled yet.
42:39So if Benson does become the right tackle for them, it's a big question mark.
42:43It's a big risk. But also be a great story because this sort of thing never happens in the NFL.
42:48Let's go to the players that they invested a lot more in in this rookie class.
42:53And that is all the guys they drafted on defense.
42:55I think the hope for the defense, if you're trying to build the optimistic case here, is that the baseline has been fine.
43:02Right. I mean, this team was, I think, 13th in EPA per play on defense last year.
43:07There's a certain floor established with the guys they have plus Steve Spagnuolo.
43:10The hope is the young guys that you added in the draft.
43:13Can that give you a certain injection of talent, of pop to kind of take this thing a step forward and take it to a slightly different level?
43:21That's the plan. What does that plan look like in practice so far based on what you've seen from the young players that they added?
43:28Yeah, real quick. I didn't want to leave the cliffhanger here too long.
43:322012 Michael Harris of the Chargers. 2018 Desmond Harrison of the Browns are your two tackles that started as undrafted rookies in their first game as rookies.
43:39Not something that happens very often. But I agree with your point.
43:43The Chiefs needed some juice from after last year.
43:45And I think if you look around the NFL and the teams that were in the Final Four last year, you talk
43:51about teams that had not only good defensive lines, but defensive line rotations, guys they could bring in.
43:56And how often, I mean, the big thing we think about with Chris Jones from last year is the game against Trevor
44:02Lawrence, against the Jaguars, game point, and he's walking.
44:05He's not going to the quarterback. But in Chris Jones' defense, he's played more snaps as a defensive tackle than anybody that's
44:11out there because there's been nobody around him. They just keep cycling these veterans who aren't very good and haven't had much production.
44:17Let's go with Derek Nottie again. One more year, Derek Nottie.
44:20Trade back Derek Nottie. The plan this offseason is no more Derek Nottie, retread sort of stuff.
44:25Go get real guys. And so, yeah, they went outside Kairos Tonga immediately.
44:29What's been cool about watching Kairos is you see these one-on-one battles in training camp and Creed Humphrey dominates all of them
44:35all the time since I've been covering it five years.
44:37Kairos has got him a couple of times. And you're like, oh, that's different.
44:41Derek Nottie didn't get him. You know, Kairos Tonga gets him every once in a while.
44:46But you talk about the juice. You know, Peter Woods, he had a minor ankle injury here about a week ago.
44:52So we haven't seen that same juice from him.
44:54But early on in one-on-ones, man, you saw some stuff from him.
44:57You saw the quick hands. He's down to 308 pounds.
45:00It kind of they want him to be quicker inside.
45:03Whereas Clemson, I think, bulked him up, trying to make him, you know, a two-gapper sort of thing.
45:08They saw the potential in the other guy who I looked a year ago at this time, actually a year ago to the day.
45:15Our Dane Brugler at the Athletic had Peter Woods as his number one prospect a year ago in 2025 for this class.
45:21So you're seeing more potential that hopefully gets healthy.
45:23But then the Chiefs had a couple of plays against the Rams in the preseason.
45:27Our Mason Thomas, this is the defensive end. They just never have the speed rusher around the edge who can clean up on third down.
45:34And they really missed that guy a season ago and twice.
45:37Our Mason Thomas came around the end, got pressures and forced a play that the Chiefs couldn't get a season ago on
45:43defense to get them off the field or to create some havoc that they couldn't to be able to, you know, move
45:49on in the possession and get the ball back to the offense.
45:53So I do see some more juice. They needed that.
45:56And what's so interesting about the Chiefs, we think about the veterans, the Patrick Mahomes, the Travis Kelseys of the world, the Chris Jones.
46:02If you look at like average age of the team, the Chiefs are one of the youngest out there.
46:07They have a lot of young dudes, so it'll be interesting to see how this comes together.
46:12But I think the best version of this Chiefs defense is led by a defensive line that has not always been the
46:18strength outside of Chris Jones and then letting Spags do Spags things off of that.
46:22And if that unit leads the Chiefs, I think that's going to be the best the best potential of this defense if you're looking at 2026.
46:30And I'll be curious to see what that looks like.
46:32Spags doing Spags up on the back end, because when this defense was at its best, when they were scariest during that
46:382023 season, they could really play man coverage, be aggressive, be the enforcer.
46:42Enforce the issue. By going out and getting Mansour Delane, what we saw from Noah Williams last year, again, from the outside,
46:48it feels like, can we get back to that place?
46:51Can we add those sorts of skill sets? First question, Mansour Delane, again, we're recording this on August 20th.
46:56He's back practicing, correct? And what has that looked like so far?
47:00So he has come back. He's made some plays.
47:02He is so fun to watch because he is so grabby.
47:05He is so physical out there. But that's kind of what I'm saying, right?
47:09Him being there, isn't that a breadcrumb to pick up on about how they might want to play?
47:14It is so Spagsian. And they always, it's interesting to hear the Chiefs talk about it because Spags will talk about, hey,
47:20this guy got a penalty last game. What do you do?
47:23How do you try to coach that out of him?
47:26He goes, it's okay with me. I'd rather try to teach aggression down than say, hey, these guys aren't out there grabbing
47:32enough, you know, to see what you can get away with or to see, hey, lose that physical mentality.
47:37I mean, part of that is bringing a little Jerry Snead back as well.
47:41Having that mentality of a guy who goes out there and knows what Spags wants and wants that physicality.
47:46But what was kind of the joke around, I mean, Mansour has been so physical that in yesterday's practice, they put those
47:52mitts on him, you know, like the boxing sparring mitts so that he couldn't grab anybody.
47:57And it's like, yeah, this dude needs that. Like he needs to stop grabbing everybody in a row because at some point
48:03in the NFL they are going to call it.
48:05I'm a little worried based off of the Chiefs covering them.
48:08Spags is so focused on spring practices, summer practices, getting a guy in the system, having faith in him and having him know the play calls.
48:16So with Mansour until this last week, they had him do kind of mental reps and then run off the field out of the huddle.
48:23He has not gotten that full slate. And if you hear Spags talk about him, he keeps saying we need him out there.
48:29Like he's missing out on something. He's missed. So I'm a little bit worried.
48:33Obviously, sixth pick overall is a bigger deal than like last year.
48:36Christian Fulton comes in as a free agent, has a knee cleanup surgery, isn't available in training camp until the last week and then goes MIA.
48:43And they don't play him because there's not that faith built up.
48:47But it's a different beast with Mansour Delaney. I get that.
48:50But just a little bit concerned because of the lack of reps there and gaining that trust that Steve Spagel needs to throw you out there.
48:57But your breakout big Noah Williams, I don't know if we're going to get to him next.
49:02He's a great last few days have been great.
49:04He played great in the game against the Rams.
49:07And so it seems sure seems like he's ready for a bigger role and could be one of those breakout players.
49:12But Delaney right now trending in the right direction, really physical.
49:16But yeah, we'll Spagel trust him. Will he be ready to put him in man coverage when the lights come on bright?
49:22That'll be the question. Two more questions. One, they have used Jamari Connor in the slot a lot over the last couple of years.
49:28I can understand that, but I also think that there are coverage deficiencies that eventually started to matter because of what his limitations look like.
49:35Do you see him playing more full-time safety this year based on how that room is constructed?
49:40And if that is the case, what does the slot corner spot look like over the course of the year?
49:45Yeah, you want to talk about the Chiefs beefing up a defensive line?
49:49They did the same thing as slot corner. And for the exact reasons you talked about, you know, they went out and
49:55got Cater Coe, who they have Chris Roland Wallace in-house, who got injured at the end of last year.
50:00It was kind of a safety and a corner safety nickel sort of hybrid.
50:04He's been taking most of the one snaps. And then they drafted Jayden Kennedy in the fourth round.
50:09So they have three different options there that they can go to to keep Shamari Connor in the back.
50:15What's so interesting is going out and practice and then hearing the words because we've seen Shamari Connor at safety almost every single play.
50:21And so then I asked Steve Spagnuolo, I said, what is the plan with Shamari Connor's chair?
50:26He goes, well, we still think we can rotate him and play him nickel.
50:30And it's like, OK, I know you don't want to get away trade secrets.
50:34I get it. But I'm here every day of practice.
50:36They want to move him to safety and come downhill, fit in the run game.
50:41Should be a much better fit on all ways for him to move back toward the back end and play more to
50:47his strengths than they did the last couple of years.
50:49Who has stood out in a surprise way on that side?
50:52As you've watched every single day of practice, maybe who's going to be more of a contributor, difference maker, a guy who
50:59lends to the way that this defense feels in a way that I don't appreciate right now as somebody who's not watching practice every day?
51:05Yeah, well, again, you know, but the big name players I'd start with, I would start with Peter Woods, just that it's hard.
51:12Andy Reid even said this. He said it back a few months ago, but you see the number 99 on his jersey.
51:18And he even kind of backed off the quote once he said it, because he knew I don't want to make headlines.
51:24Andy Reid never wants to make headlines. But he said, you see some Aaron Donald like qualities.
51:29You know, you see you squint hard enough. You go, I see the movement skills that made that guy a beast.
51:35And this guy has a little bit of that juice.
51:37Now, what's a little scary for the Chiefs is that last year, a year ago, they had Omar Norman Lott, their second round pick, had an ankle injury.
51:45He played through it. And then like a few weeks later towards ACL and was out the season this year.
51:51Peter Woods wasn't playing as well. Got an ankle injury.
51:53He's playing through it. It's like maybe you want to back off.
51:57I don't know. They're having him play through it.
51:59And we'll see if he gets that explosion back.
52:02I haven't seen that the last couple of days.
52:04But if so, if he shows what he flashed a couple of weeks ago, the Chiefs will be really happy with that first round pick.
52:11I would mention Chris Roland Wallace as well. I mean, he's going to be a starter in the slot unless something goes completely wrong.
52:18And so if he solves that issue for them and allows that chess piece to still move up back, those things that Steve Spagnuolo likes.
52:25What's so fascinating is the Chiefs taking Montsor to lane with number six, because there's always seems to be this type of
52:31player that Steve Spagnuolo falls in love with and plays a lot.
52:34And this year it's going to be Chris Roland Wallace.
52:37So he should be a guy at the nickel for the Chiefs who should contribute a lot of snaps and should be
52:43in there for a lot of plays that people might not know about just yet.
52:47Finding a workable nickel in the fourth round is a little bit different than when you want to play a little bit more.
52:54F*** you, man coverage. Those guys are a little bit harder to find in the fourth round.
52:58And so I think that might be the thought process behind taking a little bit of a bigger swing on Matt Sorrelane.
53:04Jesse Newell, always appreciate it, sir. Great to get your insight.
53:07We will do it again soon. All right. Appreciate it.
53:10Joining us now, it is our Packers writer here at the Athletic, Matt Schneidman.
53:14How are you doing, sir? I'm great. How are you?
53:17I'm doing well. This is my last one of these.
53:20Excellent. You got a quick drive back to Chicago after this?
53:23I'm not as quick as I'd like. Leaving about when I'm about to leave.
53:26Probably tacking on like 45 minutes more than I want.
53:29But it makes it easy. It's only getting back and forth from here to there.
53:33It barely counts as like a training camp stop.
53:36I could sleep in my own bed tonight. Well, welcome back to Green Bay.
53:40How did you enjoy the day? It was good.
53:42It was good. It was a beautiful day. It was great.
53:45I mean, it was gorgeous outside. I mean, that was a perfect day.
53:49Truly like a cloudless 75-degree day in Green Bay watching some football.
53:52It doesn't get any better than that. How are you feeling about this team right now?
53:57Yeah, I don't really know. I don't. What were you going to say?
54:00Well, we've had this conversation. We have this conversation every summer.
54:03And I feel like each year there's this, all right, there's this like smoldering level of young talent on this team.
54:09Can they kick the door down? And then when they didn't do it last year, I think it kind of reframes the conversation that you're having.
54:16But I don't know where it puts us. Like they're kind of confounding because it does feel a little bit different than
54:22the tenor of the discussions we've been having for the last couple of years of the Matla Fleur era.
54:28Sure. I think this is probably the first year where that youth and inexperience has turned into, okay, now you've got to perform.
54:34I think that was their last year after they made the Micah trade.
54:38It was like, okay, this is not an excuse anymore.
54:40And people inside the building have never really used it as an excuse.
54:44It's more of a justification. And we're playing with house money.
54:47They never said that, but that's just what I'm saying.
54:50Now it's, okay, now there's pressure. You just gave your head coach what I'm assuming is a massive extension.
54:55Official dollar signs haven't been made public. This is year two of the going all in per se after the Micah trade.
55:01But I just get the sense, and I like to think I have a pretty good pulse of the fan base, that
55:07there's just some apathy among the fan base because they've been a seven seed for three straight years.
55:12They've had these premature playoff exits. And after that 23 playoff quote unquote run where they go in and slaughter the Cowboys
55:18in Jordan Love's first year starting and then have a lead in the fourth quarter against the 49ers in the divisional round,
55:24it's kind of petered out after that. It feels like a long time ago.
55:28That felt like the height of the excitement, and it's been a while since then.
55:33Right, but I also think something that is very worthwhile to note is that entering week 15 last year, the Packers were 9-3-1.
55:39First place in the division coming off Keyshawn Nixon interception at the buzzer against the Bears on fourth down.
55:44Second in the NFC behind, I believe, the Seahawks at the time.
55:47They were in prime position to challenge for that one seed.
55:51Then they go to Denver, and Zach Bakubulele, who's not Zach Tom anymore, their best offensive lineman by far, suffers a partially
55:57torn patellar tendon and doesn't play again for the rest of the season.
56:00Keep in mind, Jordan Love was third in MVP odds entering week 15 behind Stafford and Drake May.
56:05They go into Denver. Jordan dices up the Broncos, one of the best defenses in the league in the first half.
56:11They're up nine in the third quarter. He throws a perfect deep ball to Christian Watson that might have put them up
56:17by 16, and that's pretty much game over. Patrick Sertan makes an incredible interception, lands awkwardly on Watson, and Christian Watson gets
56:23ambulanced off to the hospital because they're worried about dislocated ribs.
56:26Oh, and then a couple minutes after that, Micah Parsons tears his ACL.
56:30So that game in Denver was a physical and emotional blow to the Packers' hopes.
56:34They did not win again after that. They were 9-3-1 in prime position for a division championship.
56:39They lose their best offensive lineman, their best overall player.
56:41Watson ended up being fine, but that's like a blow.
56:44And then they just collapse that game. The next week in Chicago, Jordan Love gets concussed, and he doesn't play again for the rest of the regular season.
56:52And then we know what happened in the playoffs against the Bears.
56:55So Parsons is going to be back probably week six against the Cowboys.
56:59Arguably the best tight end in the NFL who missed the entire second half of last season with a torn ACL is back.
57:05He's playing week one, probably without a snap count.
57:08They're getting their best interior D lineman back in Devontae Wyatt, and they have their best offensive lineman back.
57:13So while there is some – I say all that to say, while there is some apathy, I also think we need
57:19to remember where the Packers were entering that Denver game last year.
57:22And the fact that they're almost at that level, if not better this time around.
57:27Because I think Kraft is your third most important player on this team behind Love and Parsons, and he's back to almost full strength.
57:33I don't disagree with any of that. And I think that's – it's a weird tension when you're talking and thinking about
57:39this team where I do think apathy – I'm not to the point of apathy, but I think that there is a little bit of like, eh.
57:47For sure. Like why would they be better? You know, like we've had this excitement about this team each of the last couple off seasons.
57:54They've fallen short of that. Why should I have the excitement again?
57:57But everything that you just said is right. And so where you fall between those two, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, right?
58:04But you look – let's take it individually. The quarterback I think is still underrated in how we talk and think about
58:10the quarterback and like how good he is in the pecking order and what you're capable of when he's the quarterback.
58:16But the rest of the – I think there are two places I would land when it comes to the maybe lack of excitement compared to last year.
58:24I think we've talked a lot about this show.
58:26Other people I think are more worried about it than me, but it has come up a lot is the quality of the offensive line.
58:33Like the offensive line is just not that good of a unit and will that hold them back from being a top
58:39five offense like they had each of the last couple years?
58:42Are they really worse than they were at the end of last season along the offensive line?
58:47You know, Rasheed Walker played a solid left tackle for them last year.
58:51I was shocked that he only got like a one-year $4 million deal from the Panthers.
58:55I just think there are a lot of question marks on the offensive line.
58:59They might be better, but Jordan Morgan, who is their 2024 first-round pick, he is – yeah, 2024 first-round pick.
59:04He's starting at left tackle. He's never played meaningful snaps there in the NFL.
59:08He was a college left tackle at Arizona. They've moved him around between left guard, right guard, right tackle, the bench.
59:14Now he's getting a chance to play his favorite position, and he's been doing so well so far.
59:19Left guard is Aaron Banks. They signed him to a four-year $77 million deal in last year's free agency from the 49ers.
59:25He's always hurt. He was healthy for a little bit at the end of last season and played well, but he's still
59:31kind of working his way back to full strength.
59:34So that's a big question. So is left tackle.
59:36Center, Sean Ryan. He took over after Elton Jenkins went down for the season last year.
59:41Played pretty well. They extended him three years, $33 million.
59:43So he's a solid center. Right guard, Anthony Belton was their second-round pick last year out of NC State.
59:49He's a tackle, but they played him at right guard.
59:51He started seven games there, took over that job from Jordan Morgan, started the second half of the season.
59:57He's been so bad in pass protection that he's no longer – I mean, Adam Stenevich says he's in the right guard competition still, but he's realistically not.
60:05He's their swing tackle. He's their swing tackle. He's their back-up right tackle.
60:08His pass protection has not been good. So in comes Jacob Monk, who was a fifth-round pick a couple years ago out of Duke.
60:15Missed a lot of the offseason because he tore his pec, I believe, in the playoff game.
60:19He hasn't played any meaningful snaps really for this team ever, but it's the right guard competition is between him and Jagger
60:26Burton, who's a rookie fifth-round pick out of Kentucky.
60:28So more unknown there. And then right tackle is the guy who doesn't look like his normal all-pro caliber self.
60:34Two years ago when Zach – call him ZBB.
60:36We'll call him ZBB. He received the third most all-pro votes among right tackles behind Panay Sewell and Lane Johnson.
60:42Then they signed him to a four-year, $88 million extension.
60:44He's the third best right tackle in football when he's healthy, but he hasn't looked quite back to his normal self.
60:50And there still is that question of are you getting that same guy coming off offseason surgery?
60:55So there's questions at pretty much four out of five spots on the offensive line.
60:59I think that's right. I think my devil's advocate point would be that's kind of how it was last year.
61:05And it wasn't great last year. But they were still a top-five offense, right?
61:09They were still capable of being really dynamic on offense.
61:11And so I guess that's like – and part of me thinks that LaFleur has done such a good job of scheming
61:17around that group when it hasn't been great. Can that happen again?
61:21But I just don't know where I land with it.
61:23Like I understand the arguments on either side of it.
61:26But I think they would – I think they believe they could get better left tackle point out of Jordan Morgan than
61:32they got from Rasheed Walker last year. Certainly. And I think a couple other important things just to put a bow on this offense talk.
61:39It's important to remember Christian Watson missed the first seven games of last year while recovering from a torn ACL.
61:45He is their number one receiver. He is a legitimate threat.
61:48Jaden Reed missed 10 weeks last year after breaking his collarbone in week two.
61:52So when Watson came back midseason, Reed was still out.
61:54And then Tucker Craft, who – when Tucker Craft went down last year in week nine, the week before on Sunday Night
62:01Football in a win over the Steelers, seven catches for 143 yards and two touchdowns.
62:05When he went down, he was first among all tight ends in yards after catch per reception, third among all tight ends
62:11in receiving yards, and tied for second in touchdown catches.
62:14He's a great blocker. He said, I thought I was the best tight end in the NFL when I went down.
62:19You're having those three – those three guys are never on the field at the same time.
62:24Now they're on the field at the same time.
62:27And you have year two of Matthew Gold in their first-round pick last year who's looked awesome in camp.
62:32He did last year too. And you don't have – you know, Romeo Dobbs and Dontavian Wicks were solid players for this team.
62:38Romeo Dobbs probably more than solid. But you know this.
62:41The story with this team is always they don't have a true number one.
62:45They just give the ball to whoever's open. And that probably stunted some of Matthew Golden's rookie expectations because they just give
62:51the ball four or five times a game to six different guys.
62:54Now it's a defined top three with Watson, Reed, and Golden.
62:57And then you have arguably the league's best tight end and a quarterback who's exceptional at avoiding sacks and navigating a dirty pocket.
63:04The run game's a huge question because you don't know if their feature back is going to get suspended for six games.
63:10That is still to be determined. And Marshawn Lloyd, who would then be the starter, has played one game in his first two years.
63:16And even though he's extremely explosive, you can't count on his health yet.
63:20So their passing game I think can be great.
63:23But their offensive line and their run game, a lot of questions.
63:26Where I land with it is that I think the offensive line most likely shakes out in the general range of what
63:32it was for most of last year. And if that happens and the pass game is healthier and more dynamic than it
63:38was last season, shouldn't this team be scary on that side of the ball?
63:42I think the answer is yes. Again, and I just don't think I maybe maybe I'm kind of on an island here.
63:48Maybe I shouldn't be putting this on other people.
63:51I'm just not sure that's the type of conversation that a lot of people are having about the Packers right now, in
63:57part because of that apathy that you're talking about.
63:59And that's fair. I understand that. But I do think this team, when healthy, is still a legitimate Super Bowl contender.
64:05The big question, I guess, to transition it to the defensive side of the ball.
64:09Let's go to the receivers just really quickly. Yeah.
64:12As you're thinking about you said that Christian Watson's the number one receiver on this team.
64:16When you think about the pecking order, the workload, who is the prominence of these guys and how it shakes out?
64:22You think it's Watson, Golden, Reed? Watson, Reed, Golden, I'd say.
64:25OK, really? Yeah. OK. And even with the type of training camp that Golden has had, you still think that Jaden Reed
64:31is the second most important receiver on the team?
64:33100%. Yeah. I think, you know, Jaden Reed's first two years with the Packers in 23 and 24, he, I believe, led
64:40the team in both catches and receiving yards or touchdown catches.
64:43He led in a couple of those categories. Then last year, he misses, you know, two and a half months with a couple of surgeries.
64:50And I think people kind of forgot how important he is.
64:53He's far more than just a gadget piece. And I fall.
64:56You get a crazy contested catch today over the middle of the field.
64:59This is my eighth year covering this team. I've fallen victim to falling in love with guys in camp.
65:04And I think Golden's going to be a great player with more opportunities.
65:08But I'm not ready to be like, oh, he's above.
65:11I look back when I was on McAfee last summer, I saw a clip yesterday of me saying that Golden was the team's best receiver.
65:18I was like, all right, I need to maybe slow my roll a little bit here.
65:22So I'd still go Watson Reed Golden. But not by much.
65:25It feels like a good place to be if he's not as good of a camp as he has.
65:31For sure. And this is one of those where trying to figure out, oh, why didn't he get more opportunities last year?
65:37If he had such a good camp or he's such a talented player.
65:40That's such an easy explanation for me. It's one young receivers have a hard time acclimating to this offense because of what
65:46is asked of them in the detail. And two, the skill set they needed when they drafted Matthew Golden was they needed
65:52somebody who could win against man coverage consistently when this team got to third down because they couldn't do it two years ago.
65:59Well, Romeo Dobbs became that player. Right. So the reason that they needed Matthew Golden became way less important because you had
66:05a guy that ended up making $18 million a year take up the mantle and fill that role within the offense that you drafted the guy.
66:12In the first round to fill. It's an easy explanation.
66:15A hundred percent. And I think like I was saying, this offense is predicated not on feeding one guy the ball like
66:21it was when Aaron Rodgers had Devontae Adams. That was get the ball to Devontae Adams at all costs.
66:26He would have 12, 14 targets in a game.
66:29You're rarely going to see a guy with double digit.
66:31I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but you're not going to see a guy with double digit targets.
66:38The most likely one is Tucker Kraft. He's their best and most dangerous pass catcher, I think.
66:42But to have three receivers who I think all can be, you know, legitimate number two guys on any team in the league.
66:49It's a good problem to have. I think it is.
66:51And the only question I have is about those like big boy one on one situations where Romeo Dobbs improves so much
66:58as a route runner and like the physicality and the size really shows up in those moments.
67:02Like Golden is a physical player in the sense that we saw make a lot of contested catches in college.
67:08He'll go up and get the ball. But that frame is just different.
67:11And Watson's a bigger player, but he played his play style is just different than.
67:16Yeah, I think he's his hands have really improved, though.
67:18Like early in his career, his drops were a major problem and his hands have gotten so much better.
67:24And his contested catch ability has gotten a lot better in recent years.
67:27But I definitely hear what you're saying that they don't have that A.J.
67:31Brown type build, for example. They're more lanky guys, but I don't think it's a massive issue.
67:35I don't think it's a massive issue. Just stylistically a little bit different than I had last year.
67:40But as a group, they just have so much juice.
67:43Like that's the difference is that this is the most like collective explosiveness they've had among that group in a long time.
67:49And so I think there are positives and negatives.
67:52Like that's a positive. That is a benefit and a version of this group that we just haven't seen here.
67:57Let's go to the defense where a lot of the bigger questions are.
68:01Let's start with to me, who's playing cornerback for this team on the outside in week?
68:05I don't know. If you had to guess. Brandon Cissé and Keyshawn Nixon.
68:09That's what it seems like. Yeah, because. This team, as you know, is a draft and develop team.
68:14They don't draft guys to play them right away.
68:16Rashawn Gary took like three years to become a guy who earned her $24 million contract before kind of petering out here.
68:23They took Jair Alexander in 18th overall back in 2018.
68:25Brian Gutekunst's first draft pick. He didn't start right away.
68:28Eric Stokes, who they took in the first round in 21.
68:31He didn't start right away. They didn't have a first round pick this year.
68:35They take Brandon Cissé, corner out of South Carolina in the second round.
68:39He's going to start right away. Keyshawn Nixon. And I've said this a million times before.
68:43He's not supposed to be this team's number one corner.
68:46Jair Alexander. He made two all pro teams here and then became the richest corner in NFL history, then had a bunch
68:52of health problems and his career fizzled out here.
68:54He's not even 30 years old yet. He's still supposed to be the number one corner here.
68:59But Keyshawn Nixon was thrust into that full-time role.
69:02He's gone from a two-time all pro first-team kick returner to a nickel corner to a part-time outside corner to the full-time number one outside corner.
69:09And fans hate him because he's not a number one corner, but that's what the Packers need him to be.
69:14And some of the things he says piss them off too.
69:17But I still think he's one of the two best corners on this team.
69:21It is interesting, though. I didn't watch practice today because I was working on a different story where I wasn't watching team drills.
69:28But in recent weeks, they've rotated a lot at corner.
69:30And Keyshawn Nixon was working with the second team a couple times.
69:34So we asked Bobby Babich, who is their defensive passing game coordinator, was the Bills' defensive coordinator.
69:38What's going on with Keyshawn taking reps with the second team?
69:41He said, we have a cornerback competition. And then as we see that play out, there's one guy on this team who's not repping with the second team.
69:49Only one corner is exclusively working with the first team, and it's the rookie.
69:53You have Nixon, you have Carrington Valentine, Benjamin St.
69:56Juice, who's played for the Commanders and the Chargers, who they signed this offseason.
69:59Those are the other three guys who are in the mix for playing time.
70:03But I could very well see it being a rotation.
70:06And the problem is, when you have a questionable cornerback group like that, as long as you have a pass rush, you're fine.
70:13But guess who's missing the first month and a half of the season?
70:16Her best pass rusher. So I don't really have much faith in this defense until Micah Parsons returns.
70:21Yeah, I think they're going to have to get really creative until Micah Parsons returns.
70:25I think, to me, it comes on two fronts.
70:28One, do they turn up the heat just consistently?
70:30I think they probably will. They'll probably have to.
70:33I mean, this is... And Jonathan Gannon's funny because when he was in Philly, it was very simple.
70:38It was like, we're bringing five. Because they had the guys to do that.
70:42They could be as simple as they wanted. And then in Arizona, whatever the opposite of simple is, is the Arizona Cardinals defense.
70:48Buda Baker just going all over the place. But I think that's a lot of Nick Rollis.
70:53I think Jonathan Gannon... I always describe it as there was a very healthy, creative friction between those two guys.
70:58I think Jonathan Gannon really trusted Nick Rollis to be like, all right, this is your vision.
71:03I'm going to let you see this through. Even if maybe this isn't how I would do it in a vacuum.
71:09But our personnel lends to us playing this way.
71:11So I think it'll be more complex and more aggressive than it was in Philly, but not nearly as wonky as it
71:17was in Arizona, in part because they don't have the horses and they have to be.
71:22I remember Jeff Halfley's first year here in 2024.
71:24We later learned that when he got to Green Bay, he thought he was just going to be able to rush for
71:30and generate pressure that way with Rashawn Gary, Van Ness, the inside guys of Carl Brooks, Devontae Wyatt, Colby Wooden.
71:36I thought that too, by the way, because I thought that defensive line looked really good by the end of the 23 season.
71:42And then it never happened. But they weren't able to.
71:45So what Halfley ended up doing is a bunch of these simulated pressures where they'd crowd seven guys up at the line of scrimmage.
71:52And then they would drop a defensive end and Quay Walker, but send Edgerton Cooper and Xavier McKinney.
71:57And they just have to get crazy with all these looks and replacement fire zones, whatever they wanted to call them, because
72:03they couldn't just rush with a standard four. When you have Micah Parsons, you can because those guys who couldn't win their
72:09one-on-ones or couldn't win their double teams before were Sean Gary, you know, Devontae Wyatt, whoever else maybe wasn't getting home as much as the Packers would like.
72:17They have one-on-ones all the time because you have two, three guys on Micah Parsons.
72:21We've seen so many exotic looks and pressures this camp.
72:24And we talked to Micah a couple of weeks ago.
72:26He was like, yeah, we're not going to see much of that come the regular season because we're just going to pare it down so much.
72:34But I think back to 2024 with Jeff Halfley, and I was talking to Jordan Rodrigue about this when she was here
72:40recently, you're probably going to see two completely different pass rushes.
72:43First five games and then beyond, because you're going to see corners in the backfield.
72:47You're going to see Evan Williams coming through the slot.
72:50You're going to see, you know, Xavier McKinney in the backfield because you don't have Micah Parsons on the field.
72:55Unless Lucas Van Ness has had an incredible camp.
72:58Unless he becomes a true number one guy, then I think you have to get more creative.
73:02I think the other part that I'm really interested in is I think the most talented player on the defense, the front
73:08seven, the most talented player on the front seven that is not Micah Parsons.
73:12It's Edron Cooper. It's Edron Cooper. A hundred percent.
73:15And so how do you weaponize Edron Cooper as a pass rusher in a world where Micah Parsons is not on the field?
73:21To me becomes the most important question about the front seven before Micah gets back.
73:25A hundred percent. He's an all pro caliber player.
73:28I think he's in his third year now. He's gotten, I think, one all pro vote the last couple of years.
73:34I might be wrong about that, but he's an incredible player.
73:37He's still, I think, 24, 25 years old. He's going to be one of the best linebackers in this league.
73:42And then you pair him with a guy who I went to college with, Zaire Franklin.
73:47And 10 years after I covered him when he was a captain at Syracuse and I was a student reporter for the
73:53newspaper, he's, my guess, is about to be a captain for the Packers.
73:56And just the edge and the life he's kind of injected into this defense.
74:00He was an all pro two years ago. Not great last year, but if he can be even close to an all
74:06pro this year, like the linebacking core with Cooper and Zaire Franklin easily is the unit of those three levels of defense.
74:12I'm most confident in right now. Yeah, I think that's fair.
74:15And I think the, the, what's interesting to me is the part of the reason you can make this out your Franklin
74:22trade is I think they felt good about their interior defensive line depth and the guys that they could roll through there.
74:28That was something that came up today where like they, we really like the depth of that interior defensive line position.
74:33Not a lot of like big name guys, but I think they're, they feel like there's a lot of guys in that
74:40room they can lean on, even if there aren't a lot of household names as a part of it.
74:45Yeah. And we've seen six or seven different interior.
74:47It was impossible to keep track today. There were so many guys.
74:51We're writing down all the numbers on our notebook of all the guys who are starting.
74:55And it's like six or seven different guys. And I think part of that is just trying to keep guys fresh, but
75:01it's also like they don't really have Devante. Why it's their best one, but you have Javon Hargrave who played for Gannon
75:07in Philly, had 11 sacks for him a couple of years ago.
75:11Not the same player now, obviously, but I think he can still give you something.
75:15Carl Brooks, who's been a role player for this team the last couple of years.
75:19Warren Brinson, a second year guy out of Georgia, who's had a fantastic camp, just got injured, didn't practice today.
75:24I don't know how long he'll be out, but he's been having a great camp.
75:29Jonathan Ford, who was a seventh round pick of these guys in 22, went to the Bears last year.
75:34Then they picked him up and they brought him back here.
75:37He's six, five, three 38. He just gets in the way of people and he's been getting starters reps.
75:42And then a guy that none of your listeners will know or care about.
75:46There's a guy named Anthony Campbell, who's a second year player out of university of Miami.
75:50And he had one tackle last year in Miami while playing eight games.
75:54He was a bench player for the Miami hurricanes.
75:57There was one stretch earlier in camp where he had four pass breakups, batting stuff down at the line in three practices.
76:03And that's not all he does. He makes plays against the run.
76:06He made, he had a vicious sack in the game the other night.
76:10He's getting reps with the starters. So you get, you, this group could go six, seven deep just on the interior.
76:15And if it's just some of those guys can generate some pass rush while staying fresh because of that rotation, maybe they can tread water without Micah.
76:23The last thing I'll ask you, we do this for every team in the division previews.
76:27We're starting the division previews tomorrow. So it's on my mind.
76:30I'm very curious about your answer to this. What is success for the 2026 green Bay Packers?
76:35NFC championship game at minimum. I think if, if you have everyone healthy last year, they had the quote unquote excuse of
76:41having like four of their seven best players hurt and out for the year.
76:45If you have everyone healthy craft, Wyatt ZBB loves healthy.
76:48You got to get to the NFC chain. It's put up or shut up time for Matt LaFleur.
76:53I'm not saying that he's going to get fired if, if they Peter out again and get the seven seed, but one
76:59of my buddies, Bill Huber, another beat writer, he has this saying, it's not called NFC North title town.
77:04It's called title town because they're talking about Superbowl titles.
77:07Yeah. This team hasn't even won the division since 2021.
77:10Like you have to win the division. You got to win multiple playoff games.
77:14And I'm going to sound like a fan saying this, but I think this is how the fan base feels.
77:19This is the green Bay Packers. This isn't some rinky dink operation that accepts the seven seed in an early exit every year.
77:25You're not this young team with all these inexperienced players anymore.
77:29You just gave your head coach a boatload of money to extend them when a lot of people thought you shouldn't.
77:34You have all the core pieces you need to be a Superbowl team.
77:38It's put up or shut up time. So I think at minimum NFC championship game for a successful season.
77:43Well, you can make a, I think very real argument for any single team in the NFC North pretty easily.
77:49And so I could easily make one for the Packers.
77:51So the good news is I can make a pretty easy argument for why the Packers win the NFC North.
77:57The bad news is I could make a very similar argument for why they won't other teams in the NFC North.
78:03And I will say, um, I don't know when this airs, but I know five days from now, five days from now.
78:09Okay. So Jonathan Gannon will have already had his joint practice against the team that just fired him.
78:14And week one is Jonathan Gannon versus Kyler Murray Packers Vikings.
78:17So I'm very interested to see if Gannon kind of knows which buttons to press to make Kyler Murray uncomfortable in Minnesota.
78:23I realized that today in, in talking to people here and, uh, yes, it adds another little layer of intrigue to what
78:29that week one matchup is going to look like as if it didn't have enough.
78:33Match night, man. Always great to see you, sir.
78:36Always appreciate the time. We'll do it again soon.
78:38Absolutely. Joining us now, it is one of our esteemed bears writers here at the athletic.
78:43It's Kevin Fishbane. How you doing, man? I'm good.
78:45We've got a lot of bears writers. Always have a strong athletic tradition at the lakefront.
78:50We talk about this every single year, but the bears media contingent is always ridiculous.
78:54I mean, just the sheer number of people covering that team every single day.
78:58And it's a bears town. There's never any denying that when you see how many people are tasked full time with breathlessly covering every moment of this team.
79:05Do you want to do 25 minutes about a preseason incompletion?
79:08Do you want to start there? I did. I did a very dumb thing, um, in that I engaged on a social media app.
79:15That's name changed in recent years because, you know, Dan Weir and I wrote about what I liked to tongue in cheek Lee call the incompletion.
79:22Because I do think that it was a really great, uh, opening to understanding the quarterback coach dynamic, but, um, people, people
79:28were very angry about other takes on the incomplete pass.
79:31So we don't, we don't have to get into it.
79:34I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting. And I, and I completely understand how you guys were framing it.
79:40And I think it's very silly that people got all up in arms about it, knowing you and knowing your personality.
79:45I know you were making a joke about calling it that I, it's funny that this is one of those moments where
79:51I kind of side with Caleb Williams. Like I think in that situation, I like to see him be aggressive.
79:57There are times where I feel like he doesn't let the, like pull the trigger on those sorts of throws.
80:03And so I get where Ben Johnson's coming from.
80:05For those of you guys who don't know, there was an incompletion that he threw to Colson level in the preseason game
80:11that became a whole thing because Ben afterwards was like, I think I'd go somewhere else with the ball.
80:16And so it just led to just a certain level of discourse and it was an inaccurate pass.
80:21So that's also part of it. I also think the inaccuracy is partially driven by the fact that it's a really tough
80:27ball, because if he tries to layer that over the linebacker, it gets, it brings the safety into play.
80:33And so the trajectory he threw that with, I think it's completely fine.
80:36And if I'm first and 20, take a chance, take a chance.
80:40It's a preseason game. Let's figure out where the limits are.
80:43And so overall, I actually liked him making that choice in the moment, even if I think it's led to some consternation
80:49from a couple of different parties here. Yeah. Not to mention, I think seven out of 10 times Colson Loveland catches that
80:55pass, but again, not the best ball, but like, that's what Colson Loveland can do is make kind of impressive catches.
81:01The other part of it, which the interesting thing I thought was it showed you how analytical Ben Johnson can be.
81:06Yeah. That it was the down and distance that bothered him.
81:10It was, that it was first and 20. And it's like, okay, we don't want our aggressiveness to be here when it's
81:16first and 20, maybe first and 10, but you can see a little bit into his mind of like, it's first and 20.
81:22I don't need you. I don't need you doing that.
81:25Um, but yeah, like I think like if you're Caleb Williams, like if you're watching that, you want him to take that shot at a guy like Loveland.
81:33Um, it is, I thought it was really an interesting look into their dynamic.
81:36And I got a chance to talk to press Taylor, um, this week.
81:40And I love that he, one of the things he said was essentially, we are coaching Caleb really hard and he wants it.
81:46He's welcoming it. And like, that's a whole thing this summer is that like, they are being so particular with things, especially
81:52when it comes to ball placement and, and, and where the read is and all that stuff, because they trust that he wants that.
81:59And, you know, you're ideally you see the fruits of that labor.
82:02So let's talk about that because obviously last year, the installment of the offense and just, there was so much written and
82:09so much talked about the fact that those guys were just trying to keep their heads above water with everything they were throwing at them in the summer.
82:16And you saw a process that I think could have been pretty predictable knowing that context on like August 25th, the offense
82:22looked very uneven for the first four games. They get to the buy.
82:26And I think things really start to settle down over the final two thirds of the season as you've watched them this summer.
82:32And they've obviously talked about this pretty openly, just the fact that there's an increased level of, I think Ben Johnson specifically
82:38said he didn't want to use the word comfort because he doesn't like the idea that guys would be comfortable, but there's a familiarity right there.
82:46There is an understanding of we have the baseline level stuff down.
82:49What does step two of this look like? What does step two and version two of this Ben Johnson, Caleb Williams, Bears
82:55offense look like so far to you? It's just cleaner.
82:58It's just more concise. It's sharper. Like, you know, every year since I've been covering the team, I walk into training camp
83:04and I say, okay, can the quarterback sustain a drive for crying out loud?
83:08Like, can the quarterback just move the sticks? Like in a move the ball drill, can they actually move the ball?
83:14And last training camp, you were there. I mean, it was, it was bad.
83:18And then you saw that, as you said, in the first few weeks, the Cowboys game opened things up.
83:23They start really hammering the run game after Vegas.
83:25And we, we see what happens. And this year in camp, it's just been more methodical.
83:30And you're seeing like, he's staying in the pocket.
83:32He's just making just easy throws to Loveland, to Burden, to DeAndre Swift, you know, out in the flat, to Cole Komet.
83:38Like he's just, it's Roma Doonesy. I think he's had a really solid camp.
83:42Like he's just trusting his guys and taking his completions.
83:45And you're just seeing the offense just look smooth.
83:47And it's not like, it doesn't mean it's been this explosive thing that the defense can't stop.
83:52It doesn't mean they look like the 2013 Broncos, but it just, it just looks like an NFL offense should look this time.
83:59When you're, when you automatically have an advantage in a training camp setting, you should be able to complete passes at a pretty high rate.
84:05There are two different places. I think you can land with this.
84:09I think you can land in the good players go Burr part of this, where this thing is just going to go
84:15through the moon, where there's so much underlying young, explosive talent on this team, the quarterback, the tight end Luther burden in
84:21year two, what the run game looked like. I think there's the other side of it where we still need to see it.
84:27The fact that the offensive line feels a lot more unsettled last year without Dolman.
84:31And now you're, you're replacing the center. We still have a left tackle battle that we'll get into.
84:36The quarterback still needs to be more consistent. We can project him potentially doing that, but if he doesn't, this offense can't hit its ceiling.
84:43And so I want you to give me the case for this team becoming the sort of offense that Ben Johnson thinks they can be.
84:50And I want to get, I want to know what is still holding you back potentially in the case against that offense coming to fruition this year.
84:58I think Luther burden Colson level, or maybe the two best players on the team in training camp, like until Luther burden got hurt.
85:04Like, I mean, he's back by the way, we're recording this on the 27th.
85:08He's back practicing. So people can bring it easy on that.
85:11Right. He was an individual drills on Wednesday. So I think he's on track.
85:15Um, and it's not taking anything away from a dunes day who I think is also looked really good, but like you
85:21have these two guys and, and Robert, like how many times do we have the conversation of the year to jump?
85:27Like, that's just like, Oh, wide receiver, rookie year, full off season, strength and conditioning.
85:31He knows the offense. He's going to take this leap.
85:34So we do that with burden and Loveland. Cause we saw what they did the last seven weeks of the season, but they actually looked the part.
85:42So I think that the fact that those two guys looked so at, at times uncoverable, um, you can see what that can do for the offense.
85:49Um, and again, like, cause it's, you're in the spring, you're projecting, then you watch it in the summer.
85:54You're like, okay, like these guys, this thing could, could work.
85:57Yeah. On the flip side of that, you know, you, you mentioned, you mentioned offensive line.
86:02And I think that like when the games start in Cincinnati, the joint practice wasn't, it was really herky jerky.
86:07It was a little bit more like training camp last year.
86:10And Dexter Lawrence kind of blew up a lot of things that the bears wanted to do.
86:15And you just don't know when they face these live defense.
86:18Look, they get Brian floors in week two. And, and he's very familiar with Caleb Williams and the things that he's going
86:24to want Caleb to do and want to force him to do.
86:28And I just don't, I, as you said, there's still this unknown.
86:31This is year three. Like they're Ryan Polson said it himself last year.
86:34Like they still want to see what this thing can look like.
86:38We all know the potential of everything, but it just, you just want to see it against a live defense.
86:43Considering the offensive line situation, considering all these coaches around the league are going to do everything in their power.
86:49Not to let Caleb extend plays and try to take that magician hat away from him.
86:53So there, there is still, there is still an unknown.
86:56I do kind of like, I'd be curious your take.
86:59Like this whole idea of, well, the bears can't win games the way they did last year.
87:04It's like, well, sure. Like, of course, they also lost like four games in the final seconds that were coin flip games that they probably could have won.
87:11Also, you can, you can just say, I just think you can take that so many ways.
87:16Like nobody's sitting here thinking that they're going to come back in the final minute eight times again.
87:21Um, that's just life. I don't think that's like a big surprise.
87:24Um, but I do get that. Like this team has to start faster and we got to see it.
87:30I'm a big, you'll see him believe it. Like what, what does it seem to look like in the first quarter?
87:35Cause that was a huge problem last year. Yeah.
87:38I think that I agree with the idea that they can't win games the way that they did last year.
87:43Cause I think it's coming from two different spots.
87:46One, it's the late game comeback stuff, which just isn't going to happen again.
87:50It's just not, even if the overall record in one score games, wasn't in ridiculous the way it was for a team
87:56like the Broncos, there was still enough late game luck and late game fortunate bounces that are not going to happen again.
88:02To me, the bigger thing is just the turnover differential that that's offensively and defensively.
88:06Like this team just didn't turn the ball over very often in the regular season.
88:10And they took the ball away at just a ridiculous, absurd rate.
88:14And so I just think that you have to just be more consistent offensively where last year it was really driven by
88:20a lack of negative plays overall sacks, interceptions and explosiveness.
88:22Can you just be a little bit more consistent offensively?
88:25And if you can be, does that offset some of those concerns about the turnover differential falling back to earth a little
88:31bit, you not having those fortunate moments late in games.
88:34Like I absolutely think they could be as good of a team as they were last year and maybe with a slightly,
88:40slightly worse record, but we would feel so much better just about the down to down consistency on both sides of the ball.
88:47The offense, I think it's easy to make that case.
88:49Everyone's settling in. We can talk about the left tackle situation, even if it's a slight, if it's a downgrade from Dolman
88:55to Bradbury, they've been pretty effusive about how much they've liked, what they've seen from Garrett Bradbury over the course of this off season.
89:02I feel like that's a situation where even if you're taking a step back, the offense can still function the way that
89:08you want it to, because the three pillars on the offensive line are still so good.
89:13We can talk about offensive line. Health is another overarching concern.
89:16Like they, those guys were healthy last year in a way that Jonah Jackson specifically just hasn't been.
89:21That's something to keep in mind, but if we can just assume average health for those four and they can piece together
89:27the left tackle spot and help that guy over the course of games, the same way they did last year.
89:32And you build an incremental improvement from the quarterback and all the young skill position talent.
89:37I'm fine getting to a place where this could be a top five offense.
89:41Like I probably picked them to be a top five offense.
89:44The defense is where I just think it's so much harder to start building that case because the entire case started with,
89:50okay, the secondary is going to be healthier than it was a year ago.
89:54So it's not where it's August 27th and it's already not like we're wondering who the second safety is going to be
90:00after that's the position you spent the most money on and the most resources on collectively in the entire off season.
90:06And then Kyler Gordon, like what's going to happen at the entire, I think optimistic argument for why the defense would be
90:12better was the idea that you'd have Kyler Gordon the entire season.
90:15You have real jail and Johnson. And now you have two new safeties with range and speed.
90:20Well, how many bricks out of that wall have already even pulled out before we even get to Labor Day weekend?
90:25Too many for me to sleep well. Yeah. You know, I think back to a 49ers game last year and you kind
90:32of wonder like how many bears games this year are going to be like that where the offense was able to score just at will.
90:38I mean, that 49ers defense is obviously decimated, but they couldn't stop Brock Purdy.
90:42And then it just came down to like team, you know, whoever gets the ball last wins.
90:47And they didn't have as many games like that as you would have thought, considering the difference between the two sides of the football.
90:54But now this year, like, well, maybe that's going to be how they have to win.
90:58Yeah. I think two things can be true when you look at the defense this summer, where it's really good that people
91:04are excited, including the bears about their sixth round defensive tackle.
91:07But you'd like to hear about other guys on defense who are, you know, taking jumps and making leaps and taking the ball away at a high rate.
91:15I do think he's battled that injury last week.
91:18I think Tyreek Stevenson has had a really good camp.
91:20He's had a bunch of takeaways contract year for him.
91:23You were kind of hoping that Jervon Dexter was going to have that kind of summer.
91:28Also a contract year. I mean, again, Grady Jarrett's been healthy.
91:31You just, you can't be, how much can you bank on him?
91:34The bears, Ben Johnson's been very effusive in his praise for Montez sweat.
91:37Jalen Johnson's been solid, but you're right. I mean, like the Kobe Bryant injury is just brutal.
91:42It's brutal. There's no way around it. It's, it's brutal.
91:45And he, like, you could just get this sense of how much they loved everything about him, the way he worked, the
91:51way he practiced, the way he talked, the fact that he was on a Superbowl champion team.
91:56We were seeing him make plays in practice before the injury happened.
91:59So it's, yeah, I, and, and also he was supposed to be helping along your first round pick.
92:04And now you have a, now your first round pick is going to be your best safety.
92:09And you still, that's, that's a lot to rely on.
92:12So, yeah, I mean, the defense does not have any more answers other than Jordan Vanderbilt looks good.
92:17Uh, I think the front is just more equipped than it was last year at any point.
92:21And I think that's the argument that you could make is that Booker and Dio never played together the entire season last
92:27year before Booker, Booker was when Booker got back, Oh, dang, Bo was already hurt.
92:32And so your edge room now with those three guys just has more options than it did before.
92:36If you want to play Dio inside a little bit and you have Booker now as that third piece, like your edge room is better.
92:43And I think you can make a serious argument that if Vanderberg is a real player, it's just a contributor.
92:49Immediately your interior group is better too. And so the front should be better than it was last year.
92:54But what's the ceiling, even if that group is deeper and does that ceiling chase you off of the current concerns you
93:00have about the state of the secondary? I think that's a different conversation.
93:04Right. Like in June, you could have sat there and said, Hey, if the defensive line is average, look what we have
93:10with Jalen Johnson, Tyron Stevens, and Kyle Gordon, Kobe Bryant, Dylan Thienemann.
93:13You could, you could have had that now it's Dylan Thienemann, Cam Lewis, and maybe a fourth round rookie starting at slot
93:19and Malik Muhammad, who's listen, a lot of talent, like really intriguing skillset, but a rookie at slot who didn't play there
93:26in college, you're, you know, you're, you're taking a little bit of a leap there.
93:30That's the other part of this is that the Xavier Woods injury quietly becoming like really important because the whole point was,
93:36if you wanted to stick him at safety, you could put Cam Lewis at nickel and now you can't even do that.
93:42Right. Right. That's the thing where I'm, I'm almost wondering if like, if almost like the bears want someone else to win
93:48the safety job so that they could put Cam Lewis at nickel, which is where he was playing before Kobe Bryant got hurt.
93:54And yeah, so now it's like, okay, now we need the defensive line to start to be above average to help this,
94:00you know, this downtrodden secondary and you're in your, and now you need Jalen Johnson to play like an all pro.
94:06You need Tyreek Stevenson to play like somebody who wants to really cash in on this contract here.
94:11Like you need Dylan Thienemann to play like he did at Oregon as a rookie.
94:15And that's just, you're asking a lot of, a lot of, a lot of what ifs, a lot of, like a lot
94:21of very thin outcomes that you're banking on here on that side of the ball.
94:26And look, TJ Edwards had never been hurt before in his career until last year, but he got hurt twice last year.
94:32He started camp late because of another injury. Like he still hasn't been full go and you're kind of thin at that position.
94:38Now that's a position you can be thin at.
94:41It's not like, you know, it's okay. Um, but you know, I'll say this, I'll give you a positive for the defense.
94:47I have been impressed by Devin Bush. I didn't know what to expect from the guy.
94:51And I do think that having number 12 is difficult.
94:54I think, I think he, he would, I think he would look better if his number was like 57, um, just because of his size.
95:01Um, but he, the speed is real, but you watch him track down running backs and tight ends.
95:06I see why Dennis Allen really wanted him as part of this thing.
95:09I also thought DeMarco Jackson played well last year.
95:12If they have to rely on DeMarco Jackson, I don't think that's the thing that's going to make or break this.
95:18I'm much more worried about you digging into your secondary depth so much already.
95:22Again, before we're even into Labor Day weekend, if Cam Lewis, his entire selling point is that he can be somebody that
95:28can plug a hole for you in a pinch.
95:30If you need him to at points over the season, it's not week one.
95:34He is a load bearing player within the defense, which is exactly the situation the bears are walking into.
95:39I guess it's worth asking, do we have any, I'm not even going to ask for clarity.
95:44I'm not going to use that word. Do you have any sense of whether Kyle or Gordon is going to play football at any point this season?
95:51No, no idea. I mean, I like to think it's good that he's there, like he traveled to Cincinnati for the joint practice.
95:58I got to think that's like a positive. Cause you're really, I can't believe that's what we're doing.
96:03Those are the breadcrumbs we're having to pick up at this point.
96:06Yeah. Like you looked on the side, like, Oh, Kyler Gordon's here.
96:09He was healthy enough to get on an airplane.
96:12That's a good thing. But I, I always tell like bears fans or like, you know, radio hosts who asked me about it.
96:18Like, I'm like, if you guys want to speculate that he's not going to play this year there, he's given you no reason not to.
96:25Like, it just like you, you can just let your mind wander because like we just have no idea.
96:31And, and it's unfortunate that we can't get like a, Hey, this is what's going on.
96:35And this is why it's taking a while. It's just terse.
96:38Like, no, no, no update, no information. He's out here.
96:41I think it just speaks to a disconnect between what's going on with him and what's going on with the organization.
96:47And I think no one wants to make it worse.
96:49Right. I think that's really all that's happening. Yeah.
96:52And it's, it's, I mean, it's what's extra unfortunate about it is the last time the blaze bears played a football game.
96:58Kyler Gordon was probably played like the second or third best guy on that defense that night.
97:03You go back and watch the Rams game. He was everywhere.
97:06And you saw how Dennis Allen could use him.
97:08And it's like, Oh yeah. That's why Ryan Poles gave him that contract when he's healthy, put his hair on fire and he's a blitzer.
97:15He's a one defender. He, yeah, you can really use him well.
97:18And, and, and yeah. And like, you just, you have no idea what, what that's going to look like.
97:24Let's go back to the offense. Cause I'm just curious how you think about the left tackle rotating cast of characters right now and what it looks like.
97:31Here's, I'll ask you two things. What do you think it looks like in week one?
97:36And what do you think it looks like in week four?
97:39It could be the exact same thing that happened last year.
97:42It could be Braxton Jones in week one. And then for whatever, you know, like last year and he's talked about it,
97:48he was not playing as well in second halves of games.
97:51And then you've got Theo Benedict who the coaches like a lot for his run blocking.
97:56You bring him in. And then when Ozzy Trapilo is ready to go, then it's Ozzy.
98:00Like it could be a very similar track to last year.
98:03The only difference is this time Ozzy is coming off an injury as opposed to last year.
98:08You were just waiting until he gave the coaches confidence that they could put him in there.
98:12So it could be like a realistic timeline for him to play.
98:16Gosh. I mean, it wasn't realistic for him to practice all summer.
98:19So I don't know. Like, I feel like he's changed the paradigm of any kind of timeline you're talking about because he's already practicing and in pads.
98:27Now he hasn't done any teamwork, you know, as of August 27th.
98:30You know, maybe that changes in a couple hours at joint practice.
98:33I don't know. But I mean, because this has been such a ridiculous recovery, could he be ready in the first month, second month?
98:40Like, I mean, I can't say no. I got this.
98:43I mean, I remember Patella attendant. That's a year.
98:45Usually a year plus used to be into the second season that you start regaining like actual quality of play.
98:51And I guess that's the question. Like, just because he's out there, it doesn't mean that he's their best, their best option.
98:57Like, is he going to be ready to play at a certain, at a level that makes you comfortable about putting him out there?
99:03Even if he's back practicing, that's an impossible question to answer.
99:06I just, I wonder if how much they see him as like the actual firm answer to the position at some point this year.
99:13Yeah. And I mean, I think that like he played well last year, but he was still the fifth best offensive lineman.
99:19You and I had this exact conversation last summer, which I've referred to a lot, which is it's okay to be the fifth best.
99:26Like, you know, that's why this isn't like the Jamarcus Webb days of Chicago bears, where you're so concerned about left tackle,
99:32because you don't have a whole lot of other great answers along the offensive line.
99:36So it heightens the left tackle problem. Now that guy is playing next to Joe Tooney and you do, you do have Cole commit.
99:43Who's a very solid veteran to, to help out.
99:45You got Loveland. So you have other answers. I just, the only curiosity I have is like, I was a little surprised.
99:51The bears never put Theo Bennett at left tackle until like a week ago.
99:55When they were like, realized like, Oh, we have to, because these other guys just aren't doing it for us.
100:01I mean, that's probably the reason, right? Is it that they were really banking on the fact that some combination of Braxton
100:07or Jed Wills would get them there. And maybe they were feeling a little bit less confident about that after seeing it for a month.
100:14Right. And I, so yeah, so I do get it.
100:17And then they put Theo there and it's, it's not, it's fine.
100:20But like, I just, and here, here's the, here's the dream scenario for the bears.
100:24Braxton Jones starts 17 games for you and is solid.
100:27And just, just, just what Braxton Jones was in 2022, 2023, where he's, I like to call him a Charles Leno light.
100:33Like you just, you know what you're getting from him.
100:36Yeah. He's not going to be an all pro, but he's fine.
100:39And then he goes and gets a big contract somewhere.
100:42You got a cop pick and Ozzy Trapilo is ready to go at the start of next season.
100:47Like that to me would be the ideal situation.
100:49But I think Braxton's little, whatever that injury was, set him back a week.
100:53And I'm, I'm very curious to see how he looks in this final week, because if he can gain that confidence back,
100:59maybe everybody feels better about him being out there for week one.
101:03But if Ozzy's just sitting there ready to go, you know, that's, that's somebody that this, obviously this coaching staff really likes him.
101:09I don't know more granular level. I see this being a team that plays probably more 12 personnel than any team in
101:15the league, just based on who their best 11 are and the ways that you can use level.
101:20And I assume we're going to see a decent amount of Roush because that to me feels like a more dangerous group
101:26than even your 11 is going to be. If Khalif Raymond or even today Walker is that third receiver.
101:31So like that stuff to me, like I think already kind of tracks.
101:35Like I just assume that's how they're going to play.
101:38Is there anything about that that you think is wrong or a misguided assumption?
101:42No, no. I mean, we, we got the, like the brief glimpse of Roush and Cincinnati at a really nice catch and run.
101:48I mean, the like smart as all get out can block.
101:51Like this is what Ben Johnson wants to do.
101:54He, he's like the, you saw what the Rams did to the best defense in football, the Superbowl champion, Seattle Seahawks.
101:59And, and you're, you're going to start seeing this now.
102:02It's just one trend. We'll see what the next trend is in five years.
102:06So this is what Ben Johnson's always wanted to do.
102:09He was a tight ends coach. So I liked it.
102:12And also, I know this wasn't a part of your question, but I do want to throw a shout out or a mention of Deandre Swift.
102:19It is very hard to evaluate running backs in most training camps.
102:22Ben Johnson's training camp makes it a little bit easier because of how physical it is.
102:26Swift just looks really good. He has had some really impressive runs that make you think, you know, you almost forget he's
102:33in a contract year because of his position. You don't think about like, Oh, what are they going to, what are they gonna do about Deandre Swift?
102:40Like, well, it's a running back. It doesn't matter, but he's looked very strong this summer.
102:44And then Manongai, what's the timeline on that? Do you have any sense?
102:48Yeah, that was a, that came out as kind of week to week.
102:52So, you know, my guess would be, he'd be ready for the start of the regular season is ideally.
102:57And there's a drop off there too. Like you need him to be your number two.
103:01Absolutely. They don't have a number three. I mean, who would it even be at this point?
103:06I mean, it's, it's year four of Roshan Johnson.
103:09I think everybody in, and they've, listen, Roshan's gotten more carries his preseason than anything he's ever gotten.
103:14He's finally staying healthy. He, Savan Ahmed has, has had the better runs in, in camp and in the preseason, but Roshan Johnson's your dynamite special teams guy.
103:21And Ahmed hasn't really done that very much in his career.
103:24So, you know, do they keep four? Cause Manongai, if Manongai is not fully healthy, I don't know.
103:29But yeah, I mean, this is Swift and Manongai are your two running backs.
103:33Like there's, there shouldn't necessarily be a third guy, ideally taking too many carries.
103:37Anything else we should know from somebody who's been there every day?
103:40That the Swift thing is a great example. Anything else that just like, all right, this is going to be one of
103:47the lasting images I have of 2026 Bears trading camp that a national audience should know more about.
103:52Have I not mentioned Jordan Vandenberg? I think we, we kind of alluded to that, but I think that's probably it.
103:57Right. I mean, he's yeah. I mean, like someone complained to me about writing about him, like he's earned it.
104:03He's, he is legitimately flashed. I'll, I'll note one more thing about, you know, every Bears practice ends with a specific situation.
104:09You know, they'll throw something on the clock, you know, a minute, 12 seconds, balls at the 32, you've got one time out.
104:15And those were just a nightmare last year, last summer.
104:18Like it was for the offense for the most part.
104:21And seeing the different ways, these guys, and, and, you know, it pays to have the experience last year and all those fourth quarter games.
104:28And I do think, you know, to back to the start of our conversation about the quarterback, like you're seeing him operate
104:34those at a much higher clip they did last summer.
104:37And I'm sure again, it probably helps that he did it in the regular season and won games that way.
104:42But yeah, like that's like a specific part of practice where I think the Bears have looked a lot better than they have in past years.
104:49We could do this for three hours. I could, I could ask you about every single player on the roster.
104:55Cause I probably have questions about every single one.
104:57We won't do that. Kevin Fishbane. Always appreciate the time, sir.
105:00Feels fitting that we wrapped up this entire series with the Chicago Bears.
105:04Cause that's what I'll probably be thinking most about over the two weeks between now and the start of the regular season.
105:10We'll talk to you soon, bud. All right. Take care.
105:13All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Nick.
105:17Thank you to Jesse. Thank you to Matt. Thank you to Kevin.
105:20Love doing these every single year, 20 overall beat writer conversations with people that are there every single day, watching practice that
105:26combined with the division previews that we're doing. Feel like I've got a lot of just deep dives on every single one of these teams.
105:33So appreciate you guys listening to these. We always get good feedback about them.
105:37And I do think that here at the athletic, it is something we are in uniquely positioned to do.
105:42So one of my favorite things we get to do every single summer, we will do these as long as they let
105:48me keep traveling to training camps every year. So appreciate everyone who tuned into these over the last month or so.
105:54That's all we got. We will talk to you on Monday.

More episodes from The Athletic Football Show

6