0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, our fifth and final beat writer notebook from sort of training camp coming to you guys today.
0:07I wanted to talk to a couple of beat writers where I didn't get a chance to travel to those places just
0:13because I think there's so much intrigue around those teams.
0:16We started with Nick Kosmider, our Broncos writer, caught up with Nick about Broncos team that obviously has Super Bowl aspirations.
0:22Chatted with Jesse Newell, our Chiefs writer about a pivotal season in Kansas City, one that feels a little bit different coming
0:28into the year than really any year of the Andy Reid 10 years.
0:32And then our final two training camp stops. Chatted with Matt Schneidman up in Lambeau, up in Green Bay at Lambeau Field
0:38about the Packers season and then finish things off with one of our Bears writers, Kevin Fishbane, about the outlook for this 2026 Bears team.
0:45Let's get to all of those conversations right now.
0:47Joining us now, it is our Broncos writer here at The Athletic, Nick Kosmider.
0:51Sincerely appreciate you doing this, sir. Good to see you.
0:54Good to see you too, man. Happy to be here.
0:57One of the camps I wish I could have gone to if I had the time and it wasn't completely isolated from
1:03every other NFL city and undrivable to anything else would have been the Broncos.
1:06Obviously, this is a team that has Super Bowl aspirations justifiably so.
1:10We're recording this on the same day we did the table, the contender table on the athletic football show.
1:15The Broncos, by the time you listen to this, you'll have already heard that, are at the table justifiably so.
1:21I think this is a team that their Super Bowl odds are lower than I thought I think they should be.
1:26I think overall, they're just firmly a contending team.
1:29What I want to ask you is, what are the reasons they wouldn't be as good of a team as they were last year?
1:36You guys that cover the team day to day, you see the cracks potentially.
1:39You see the weaknesses. You see the positional things that maybe we're not considering.
1:43Because from the outside, it just feels like team that was on the doorstep of the Super Bowl last year adds Jalen Waddell, wheels up, lets go.
1:51Why shouldn't that be the way that people are thinking about this team?
1:54Well, I think that largely is the right way to think about it.
1:58The one thing that you can really kind of look closely at with this team is obviously the record last year.
2:04I'm sure you guys have talked about this or I've heard you guys talk about this.
2:08You know, 11 and 2 in the regular season in one score games.
2:12Sean Payton has said since February, listen, we know that we're not going to be able to count on that kind of winning percentage in those close games.
2:20The idea is to not play in as many of them.
2:23But if they do kind of find themselves, particularly with the schedule that they have early in the season in a lot
2:29of those games, once again, I think you're just due to see some of the variance.
2:33But does that knock them down from 14 wins to like nine?
2:37I don't see that being the case inside linebacker.
2:39They brought back Alex Singleton and Justin Sternod, two guys who will not on anybody's list of like kind of the most athletic standout linebackers in the league.
2:47Certainly no Vance Joseph's defense very well behind them, though.
2:50They have virtually no experience. You know, they have a couple of rookies like Red Murdoch is in there.
2:55Karen A. Reid is a second year player, former undrafted guy.
2:58So they're not really experienced there. But every time you try to look at this roster and point to a few things,
3:04Robert, it just it feels like you're nitpicking because of the fact that, to your point, you look out on this field.
3:10We look at it every day. And I was just looking at the defense yesterday and you're like, man, this secondary, especially
3:16the way Riley Moss is playing in this camp.
3:19I just really don't know how you attack this team defensively.
3:22And so for me, that is where it starts.
3:24Maybe they're a little bit less deep along the defensive line without John Franklin Myers.
3:28But again, I think that's that's stuff you're nitpicking.
3:31The fact that the first thing you mentioned about what might be a relative weakness of this team is linebacker depth.
3:37When half the teams we're talking about the league don't have to starting linebackers, period.
3:41I think it just speaks to overall the quality of roster here.
3:44And they didn't do much this offseason. Right. This is a team that really just added Jalen Waddle like that and had
3:50a pretty paltry draft class in part because they didn't have a first round pick.
3:54But I think part of the reason that that's OK and you can kind of gloss over it is the roster was
4:00good enough that by just adding Jalen Waddle, you've made a championship caliber roster.
4:04I think that's kind of where I land with this.
4:07Yeah. And they brought. Yeah, it was funny because they had a lot of free agents.
4:12And so a lot of people kind of thought, you know, whether it was Alex Singleton and Justin Sternad, Adam Troutman, the
4:18tight end like that, that had the opportunity to maybe in the minds of some fans here thought they should upgrade at
4:24a couple of those types of positions. But they really are just leaning into the continuity thing like this is for Vance Joseph.
4:30It's his fourth year as a defensive coordinator, but really third year with most of the guys on this defense.
4:36And they just really have this second hand that they know.
4:39You mentioned John Franklin Myers. That was my concern kind of going into this camp as well.
4:43A guy that had 14 and a half sacks combined the past two years who really helped Zach Allen turn into an all pro.
4:50That defensive line has been like maybe the strongest unit that they've had in camp.
4:54Malcolm Roach, who started to actually play more than Franklin Myers in the second half of last season.
4:59He's had a phenomenal camp. And you're going to hear this name.
5:02N.A. Uwazurike this year. He's a guy that I think is going to play a lot for them.
5:07Former fourth round pick out of Iowa State got suspended for a year earlier in his career for gambling.
5:13He's now back and he's been just really excellent after kind of finishing the season strong.
5:17So even even places where they did kind of maybe lose something, they just really kind of loaded up with the depth from these last few draft classes.
5:25Where are we at with the Jonathan Cooper situation?
5:27Like is the thought that he is going to get suspended?
5:30I'm sure that you've been following that closely. What's the latest that you have about that?
5:35Just for context for people, we're recording this on August 20th.
5:38And so it's going to be a little bit of a gap between when we record it and when it's released.
5:44If there's any massive changes, we'll talk about it in the intro.
5:47But just keep that in mind as you're listening to this conversation that it's going to be about a week since we
5:53had it when you guys are going to be hearing this.
5:56Yeah. Jonathan Cooper is due to have an arraignment in his case on August 31st.
6:00Obviously, that's kind of right after cutdowns. But he obviously was arrested twice in June, facing some pretty serious charges, one of
6:06which was a second degree felony assault charge. Due to an incident with his then girlfriend was arrested a second time for allegedly violating a protective order.
6:14The Broncos excused him from minicamp in the light of that.
6:17But when training camp began again, he's been out there.
6:20And, you know, the two things can sort of be true.
6:23He is certainly dealing with this situation. He's also been, you know, very good in training camp.
6:28So I think that the Broncos are the Sean Payton said at the very start of camp, they're sort of letting the league's process guide the way.
6:35We do know that the league is within its investigation right now of this incident.
6:39And so I think the Broncos are certainly preparing for the possibility that he could be suspended.
6:44And you look at the baseline suspension, that would probably be six games.
6:47And no two incidents are obviously the same. But that would kind of probably be the expectation is that's where it would start.
6:54And that, of course, falls in line with the, you know, kind of the hardest part of your schedule when you're talking
7:00about, you know, the Chiefs, the Jaguars, the Rams, 49ers, Chargers, Seahawks in that in that six game stretch.
7:05So that's something that they've been preparing for themselves for.
7:08But they have been, you know, standing with Cooper.
7:10He's been in camp. So they're kind of just letting the letting the league's investigation sort of lead their lead their actions with Cooper.
7:17My assumption would be if he does miss those six games, they'll just lean on Jonah Ellis more than they would have previously.
7:23Is that likely what's going to happen if Cooper does miss time?
7:27Yeah. And even if he doesn't, Vance Joseph brought this up the other day.
7:31He's like, I looked at the end of the season last year.
7:34And one of the things I kind of kicked myself for is we didn't play Jonah Ellis enough.
7:39And there was even talk early in this offseason about moving him to inside linebacker.
7:43They kind of went away from that, just kind of digging in deeper and saying he's too good on the edge to play full time at inside linebacker.
7:51But I do think they'll create some some packages for him where he's playing inside just to get him on the field more.
7:57He's been really excellent camp. He's fully healthy. But then another name to watch is Q Robinson.
8:02He was their fourth round pick out of Alabama last year.
8:05He had a sack of Drake May in the AFC championship game.
8:08So as a second year player, this was a guy that had to play behind Will Turner.
8:13I'm sorry, Will Anderson and Dallas Turner at Alabama.
8:16So hasn't necessarily gotten that opportunity. And then behind Nick Benito and Jonathan Cooper last year, he's had a fantastic camp.
8:21And they're really high on on him being able to be an impact player for them in that outside linebacker rotation this year.
8:28Any sort of layers that you see them trying to add to the defense this year, whether it's schematic, whether it's personnel
8:34usage, because when you have so much continuity, I think that's always my question is, what are you going to tweak to kind of stay a step ahead?
8:42How is the defense going to feel maybe a little bit harder to pin down and maybe feel a little bit different?
8:48Even units that carry over a ton of their personnel from season to season, you need to iterate to make sure you're staying at that level.
8:55And so I'm just curious, based on either what you've seen or what they've said, what do you think those couple levers
9:01or tweaks might be for this version of the Broncos defense?
9:04Yeah, well, this team has so much continuity. They did make some changes on the coaching staff.
9:09Jim Leonard, who was their passing game coordinator, went to Buffalo to become the D.C.
9:13for the Bills. The Broncos brought in Rob Livingston, who was a longtime defensive backs coach in Cincinnati, spent the last two
9:19years up the road in Boulder as a defensive coordinator for Deion Sanders at CU.
9:23Vance Joseph said the other day, like Livingston has brought in a lot of like a lot of new ideas.
9:29It's our same defense, but he's kind of put a twist on it that's helped us in the secondary.
9:34And he mentioned Livingston being really good for Riley Moss, like kind of Riley Moss.
9:38If you look at it last year, he faced more targets than any any corner in the league, had the penalty issues, but but otherwise really played well.
9:46He's been even better. And I think they attribute a lot of that.
9:49Vance Joseph said to to Livingston's influence. The thing I'm curious about, to your point about the different kind of things that
9:56they can do is how do they use Jaday Barron?
9:58It's such an interesting thing with him. Yeah. Here's a guy who was a first round pick, number 20th overall pick in the draft last year.
10:06And I think a lot of people assumed, hey, there's your nickel.
10:09Jaquan McMillan was going into the final year of his deal at the time, had kind of had a so-so 2024 season.
10:15You say you draft this guy in the first round.
10:18He's going to be your nickel. Well, McMillan had a great training camp, won that job kind of easily, and then obviously
10:24had a fantastic year as Denver's nickel last year, capped with the, you know, the kind of the all time interception in
10:30the in the playoff win against the Bills. So Barron kind of just played dime last year.
10:35They found some opportunities when Pastor Tan went down, for example, for three games to have him play outside.
10:40He even experimented a little bit at safety. They're playing him all over the field defensively, but he does not have a
10:46true like he doesn't have a true starting. He's got a great spot going into year two as a former first round pick.
10:52And again, that's not a knock on on Barron.
10:55I think he's he's clearly made strides in the second camp.
10:58He had the pick six in the in the preseason opener.
11:01He's been actually, I think, really good. It's just a matter of like there's not a spot for this guy.
11:06And with Jay Mack and Riley Moss both going into contract years, it's really interesting to me how that's going to pan
11:13out and what you're going to do with Barron.
11:15I think using him, finding different ways to kind of have him be your your chess piece.
11:20That that to me is the big wrinkle on that defense that I'm just curious to see what what Vance Joseph and what Robert Livingston do with him.
11:27Let's keep going with wrinkles. The play caller wrinkles to me may be the most interesting one with this entire team.
11:33Let's start with the dynamics of this as you've learned more about it or sat with it.
11:38What is your understanding for why this even happened?
11:41Because I don't think you and I have talked since they announced that this was going to happen way back in the winter.
11:47Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we were like ran into each other like at the combine, like leaving there.
11:52That's right. Yes. Yeah. It was like the convention center.
11:55You and I were just like standing outside being like, what is this all about?
11:59Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was it's funny because it's one of those things that there were murmurs of it.
12:05Right. John Payton fired Joe Lombardi, his longtime offensive coordinator, and then quickly promoted Davis Webb into that role.
12:10And right away there was this thought of like, hey, this was a guy that got play calling OC interviews.
12:16He got head coaching interviews like there's no way that he's taking this job without being able to call plays.
12:21Right. But the Broncos didn't announce it at the time.
12:24And there was you talked to we talked to former Saints players.
12:27People have been around Peyton said there's no way that he's actually going to give up play calling.
12:32Like it's just been who he's been since he's been a head coach.
12:36And even before that, obviously. But there's there's just no way.
12:39But I think that Davis Webb, since he came into this building in 2023, has just made an impression not only on
12:45on Peyton, but but deeper throughout the building in terms of just kind of where he's going and the way that his mind works.
12:52And I think the last two years, the growth that he's helped Bo Nix have in terms of the grasping of the
12:58offense, you know, they just saw somebody who they thought could help elevate him to an to an even bigger level.
13:04And some of what you've seen with with Davis Webb and Bo Nix is and part of this is it's Bo Nix's third year in the offense.
13:11So he wasn't probably ready to take some of this.
13:14But now they're they're having a lot more time in the in the communication headset where they're finishing the play call.
13:20And and Davis Webb has given him a few little tags, a few little like reminders.
13:24Sometimes Bo Nix said it's even just sort of a joke to cut the tension.
13:28They've been able to communicate a little bit more in that in that condensed window than I think Sean Payton and Bo Nix were.
13:35And how you quantify that, how it ultimately makes a difference that we kind of have to actually get to the games to know that.
13:42But but I think it's clear that they have they have some things that they're doing just based on the communication of
13:48things that will give them more at the line of scrimmage possibilities.
13:51But before the snap, I think that's going to be one thing to watch.
13:55But yeah, it has been fascinating. I think Davis has has taken it.
13:59But, you know, talking to teammates of our talking to Broncos players about Davis Webb, like they thought, OK, you're done with
14:05Sean Payton, this kind of hard O about everything.
14:07Webb has been as a guy who just played in the league like three years ago, has been all over these guys
14:13in a way that I think they've ultimately come to appreciate.
14:16So it's I cannot wait to get to the season and see what it's going to look like.
14:21So interesting. It feels similar in terms of what's the thought process behind this?
14:25What are the potential benefits of it? It reminds me of hearing about the thought process in Carolina where you are going
14:31to an offensive coordinator that was there and is now the play caller instead of the head coach.
14:36And they're they were they've said the same sort of things where Brett Edzig is in the meetings with Bryce all week.
14:43Right. And so when you're talking about certain coaching points of, you know, what we're looking for with this route for this
14:49reason, we're talking about it on Tuesday. And so in the moment when you're calling the play, it's like, hey, you know,
14:55remember, we're looking for this on this. Like even just something like that, that little bit of context.
15:00It sounds like that's the exact same thinking where because they're working with each other the entire week, that dialogue is just more consistent.
15:06There's a little bit more shared experience when it comes to like what those game planning moments looked like.
15:12And there's potential benefits in that. So I think we have two scenarios in the league that are really similar, I think,
15:18in why teams made this decision and what they think they could get from it.
15:22Yeah, absolutely. And I think I wrote a story actually with Joe Person, our Panthers writer, about first time play callers.
15:28And it kind of traces like, you know, what goes into it and why they represent such like obviously an uncertainty, but
15:34also so much promise because you have these guys that have played the position so recently that come in.
15:39And you're absolutely right about him being with with Bo Nix all week.
15:43But it's also that he's been with Bo Nix for two years.
15:46So they just have they just have a shorthand in the way that they communicate with one another that you can see.
15:52It's I'm not saying it's, you know, like it's not telepathic.
15:55They're not just communicating an entire play call, which is like a wink or something like that.
16:00But they really do seemingly have this connection. And then from the offense itself, I think you're going to see a lot more motion with this team.
16:07They were, I think, a little bit static at times pre snap last year, you know, and obviously you limited in personnel
16:13stuff that you can report during training camp. But I think it's very I think it is easy to say that this
16:19is going to be a team that moves a little bit more, more motion, you know, kind of giving the defense more
16:26things to look at before the snap. I think it's just, again, Bo Nix being in his third year, being able to
16:32handle and direct that kind of traffic a little bit more.
16:35That's one thing, I think, to watch out for with Davis Webb.
16:38And Jalen Waddell's been back in practice for a few days now, correct?
16:42Correct. Yeah. We're recording this on Thursday, Wednesday's practice of training camp.
16:45He did something that I've seen very few times the last four or five years, which is absolutely got the better of
16:51Pat Sertan on a 60-yard deep ball from Bo Nix.
16:54And to talk to Pat Sertan after he was scheduled to talk to the media that day.
16:59And this poor guy, you would think that he had just been a total bum that just gives him a little bit.
17:05Because it's such a rare occurrence. We're just like, wait, Pat, this actually happened kind of thing.
17:09So, no, Waddell looks, he looks, I mean, again, they've been cautious with a lot of veterans.
17:14They've given a lot more veteran days than we've seen in the past.
17:18This team's getting a little bit older. That's been part of the process.
17:21So, I don't think it was anything significant for Waddell.
17:24And he certainly looked the part as recently as Tuesday this week.
17:27When you think about usage and what he's going to bring to the offense, do you feel like it's him mostly taking
17:33over the same roles we've seen get filled by guys like Marvin Mims?
17:37Is the way they're deploying him seemingly a little bit different than the stuff that you've seen?
17:42What do you think the J1 Waddell effect on the offense overall is supposed to look like?
17:46And what do you think it's going to look like?
17:49You know, it's interesting. As soon as that trade happened, one of the first things I heard from somebody in the building
17:55was, watch what this does for the run game.
17:58And I think they faced so many heavy boxes last year that they think that his speed and the ability to kind
18:04of work him in the middle to really make you think twice about the way that you're stacking up the box, that's where they see real opportunity.
18:11Of course, he's going to catch a ton of balls.
18:14They're going to use him in a lot of these different, you know, mesh routes that they like to run so often.
18:20But I think that's one aspect to look at is just how well can he be on the field to have you
18:26disguise, run and pass and then be a guy that they really have to account for.
18:31That was sort of the first thing. I think just also having a guy consistently in the slot to get open quickly.
18:37I think that's one thing that they maybe missed a little bit last year was having just that that route runner that
18:43you can count on, you know, third and short, third and medium, whatever it might be to say, hey, I know this
18:49guy is going to get open for me. That's that's where you kind of see him and Bo Nix, I think, trying
18:55to develop that in camp to where, you know, hey, this is this is coming to you.
19:00We can count on this as sort of an automatic for a team that for for all their success last year.
19:06One thing that they had way too many of was three and outs.
19:09I think they were toward the top of the league and three and out percentage.
19:13And when they would get rolling, they'd be fine.
19:16But I think he's going to help them avoid some of these early, you know, third down issues that they have, particularly early in football games.
19:23From all that I've heard and obviously this is when from afar, this can happen where there's just a drumbeat about the quality of a player's training camp.
19:31Pat Bryant is just Jerry Rice now. Yeah. Yeah.
19:33Jerry Rice or like some some version of Rod Smith that's been here before.
19:37Yeah, it's been wild. Part of it is he, you know, you mentioned Jalen Waddell missed a little bit of time.
19:43Marvin Mims missed a little bit of time in camp.
19:46So all of a sudden, Pat Bryant's just getting like every rep with with the first team.
19:51And every single day he has been, you know, I tried to stiff arm a lot of this camp hyperbole as well.
19:57Because it just it can feed itself, as you know, like it can all of a sudden a guy has a good day.
20:03And now we just sort of decided he's having a great camp.
20:06But it has been every day for Pat Bryant.
20:09It's not one of these things like, oh, yeah, like he had a great start to camp.
20:14So we're just sort of remembering that as a great camp.
20:17No, it's it's every single day, you know, with him.
20:19And so it was no surprise when their very first, you know, 15 yard completion to start Friday's preseason game went to Pat Bryant.
20:26I think the thing they like so much about him is he's so physical in the run game.
20:31So he's a guy that you can have on the field a lot.
20:35He can kind of be that big slot for you.
20:37But he can also play on the outside and kind of be Cortland Sutton's true, true backup in those situations.
20:43You know, Vance Joseph said it like he he Sean Payton loves that.
20:46He catches the ball with his feet on the ground, which is as great as Cortland Sutton is.
20:51Sometimes that's not always his his like strong suit.
20:54They believe that Pat Bryant, along with Jalen Waddle, can give them a lot more yards after the catch this year, which
21:00was another thing they were sort of missing from their offense a year ago.
21:04So he's got to stay healthy. Had two concussions last year and he does play.
21:08He kind of has this fearless brand where he doesn't always protect himself.
21:12So that's got to, I think, be sort of part of the part of the coaching points with him.
21:17But he's been excellent as he starts his second year.
21:20Do you think we see a lot of all of them together?
21:23And if we see a lot of all three of those guys together, like what are the roles look like?
21:29Is it where Bryant and Waddle have inside out flex?
21:31Do we think that if Waddle is out there, Bryant won't be like how much 11 personnel do you think they can play with those three?
21:39And do you feel like they can all kind of coexist in a way that feels cohesive?
21:43Yeah, I do. I think it's what you said.
21:46I think Bryant and Waddle both have a lot of inside out flex and they use them in the slot in different ways.
21:52Their route trees in there are different. You know, Bryant last year really became kind of like, especially like the last third
21:58of the year, like a really counted on slot guy or slant guy out of the slot that the Bo Nix really started to gain some trust.
22:06And I think I wrote it the other day that he became he became their second biggest third down target behind Courtland
22:12Sutton in the second half of the last year, which was sort of an illustration of the trust that Bo Nix was gaining in him.
22:19So I do think that you're going to see all three of those guys in 11 personnel.
22:23But then you also have Marvin Mims, who's who I think is he's such an interesting guy because every time they have
22:30to have, you know, something from him, he delivers it.
22:32I mean, the Buffalo game in the playoffs was a perfect example.
22:36They're they're they're injured. They're with or without Pat Bryant.
22:38Troy Franklin gets hurt like they're just down to.
22:41I mean, little Jordan Humphrey had a touchdown in that game because they just were so down receivers and Mims catches, you
22:47know, eight balls on eight targets for 93 yards.
22:49They want to continue to find him ways. And I think they just it's sort of an embarrassment of riches if if
22:56everybody's healthy in that, you know, even Evan Ingram has quietly had a very good training camp.
23:00He and Davis Webb go back. They were both rookies with the Giants in 2017, which is kind of funny to think about.
23:07But, you know, Evans the other day sitting here talking about how, you know, when when Davis was in the quarterback's room
23:13with Eli Manning in 2017, he's basically like, you know, help him break down the scouting report for everything.
23:18Like he was a coach already basically as a rookie.
23:21So I think you've seen Davis and Evan having that kind of again, that that sort of knowledge of one another's game
23:27so closely that he's he's going to kind of have a role, too.
23:30I think you'll see him Ingram, that is even in the backfield a little bit.
23:35You know, I think they want to have him be more involved in the run game.
23:39Now he's got to actually show that he can do that because that was a part of the reason that he didn't
23:45play nearly as much percentage of snaps wise last year as he had been in Jacksonville.
23:50So I think they want to find ways to get him on the field more often this year, too.
23:55Speaking of the backfield, this last question I had for you, what does that mix look like?
24:00Jonah Coleman had a really nice start to his preseason.
24:02How much is he going to be involved there?
24:05If J.K. Dobbins gets hurt, do we think that Jonah Coleman is actually going to be the guy who gets more of
24:11the workload just because of how up and down R.J.
24:14Harvey's rookie season was? Like, what is your sense for how that trio of guys looks right now and what the mix
24:20might be when we actually get into it? Yeah, I think the ideal scenario for them right now is that J.K.
24:26Dobbins continues to be healthy and he has that heavy workload that he had last year when he went down week 10.
24:32I think he was the league's fifth leading rusher at the time and then have Jonah Coleman, who kind of has a
24:38very similar run style and kind of fits the profile for a lot of the runs they want to do with Dobbins.
24:44I think you can slot Jonah Coleman into that.
24:46So I think that their idea would be to have him be the true backup, I guess, as far as a runner.
24:52And then, you know, obviously try to maybe especially early in the season, lessen J.K.
24:57Dobbins loads a little bit by having Jonah Coleman take some of those carries.
25:00And then I think R.J. Harvey is going to turn into your kind of like, you know, your your Swiss Army knife,
25:07your third down guy, your your two minute. He's really as much as he was up and down last year, particularly when
25:13it came to like, you know, rushing inside the tackles.
25:15He he really grew as a pass receiver, ended up with over 50 ball, 50 catches when you include the playoffs, had
25:22a couple of really big ones late in the season.
25:24So so I think he can kind of be there, you know, Sproles type player.
25:28If you're looking at it from the perspective of what Sean's Sean Payton's offenses had in New Orleans, I think he could
25:35be that kind of player for them. That would be their ideal.
25:38So but but I think the biggest thing Jonah Coleman brings is that if J.K.
25:42Dobbins does get hurt, which unfortunately has been a common occurrence for him in his career, even though he pinky promised us
25:48at the start of camp that he's going to play all 17 games, that that you would have somebody in Coleman who
25:54can come in and sort of just be a more natural kind of fit to take his place in the event that he misses games.
26:01Nick Cosmider, always great to hear from you, sir.
26:04Sincerely appreciate the insight. We'll talk to you again very soon.
26:07Thanks a lot, Robert. Appreciate it. Joining us now, it is our chief's writer here at the Athletic, Jesse Newell.
26:12Jesse, how you doing, man? Doing great. Doing great.
26:15How about yourself? Doing well. Excited to dig into this conversation.
26:18Obviously, it's been a unique offseason for the Kansas City Chiefs, I think, in a bunch of different ways.
26:23I want to start with so we're recording this on August 20th.
26:26I think it was yesterday where somebody at a press conference, I don't know what the inspiration for it was, asked a
26:32question that it pretty much posed to Andy Reid like, hey, what does it feel like for people to think you're going
26:39to be bad on offense seemingly for the first time ever?
26:42And so I'm just curious, based on what happened last year, some of the potential changes we're going to see this year,
26:48what the overall kind of feeling is around what the Chiefs offense has to change and how much faith we have in
26:54those things getting changed based on what you've seen early in training camp.
26:57Yeah, who asked him that question? We've got to look around on that one.
27:01I don't know. I'm not even influenced by my athletic football show, Robert Mays picking the Chiefs with his favorite offenses, but
27:07just not really wanting to do it, not being totally sold on it.
27:11So I would never presume to think that. There was like a 5% in the back of my mind being like, I
27:17wonder if what I said about them during the show inspired a question that was led to that answer.
27:22So the fact that that actually is true is funny because I was like, maybe I don't think I have that much influence, but maybe.
27:29So now I'm a little bit uncomfortable about it, but thank you.
27:33No, it's OK. I asked the question. So we're all good here.
27:36It is so fascinating with the Chiefs, just as you said, because of that dynamic, which is, you know, I think in
27:42the comments section of that story, there was one person like Andy Reed should never face this question.
27:47He's a Hall of Fame coach. He's better than everyone else out there.
27:51And then someone else saying, oh, my God, finally, somebody asked Andy Reed this question.
27:55He's been coasting by for so long. So it is an interesting dynamic in Kansas City.
27:59And yeah, the more I think the more national and local you get, if you will, you hear this sort of criticism of Andy Reed.
28:06Hey, is the offense coming back? Are they asking Patrick Williams to do too much?
28:10Is this thing modern enough? Do coaches sometimes lose their touch, as we've seen in the past, even, you know, last year with Pete Carroll or whatever?
28:18These coaches, you know, you go, you get old very quickly.
28:21So his response was sort of interesting. I thought he said nobody's bigger.
28:24Nobody's more critical or has more critical eye than I do.
28:27And so the things you talked about changing in the podcast and the things I think that the Chiefs you would think
28:33would go more towards, we've seen that in training camp.
28:36We've seen more under center stuff. We've seen them sort of cater to Kenneth Walker's strengths as a running back and try
28:42to get more explosion in the run game. I know one thing from that discussion with Andy Reed.
28:47And interesting enough, he does this every year with the beat writers.
28:51He does it in his de facto dorm room office in Missouri Western.
28:54And so it's a cool setup because you've got about, you know, 50 square feet in there and then you and eight writers and Andy Reed.
29:01But he's talking about what's so interesting. If you go back to the film of the first preseason game against the Rams, the Chiefs did a play action.
29:09It was Kenneth Walker's only rush of the game or only play of the game.
29:13They play action to Kenneth Walker and that inside linebacker immediately flowed downhill.
29:17Andy Reed told us, I like that. I didn't see that a year ago.
29:21I didn't see that second level defender moving like that.
29:24And they believe that can open things up. So I do think there's some tweaks.
29:28They had a long, long offseason in Chiefs standards to be able to figure some things out.
29:32But I do think some of those changes you guys have been talking about, they're coming to the Kansas City Chiefs.
29:38We'll just see how effective they're going to be.
29:41We've talked so much about the explosion necessary in the run game.
29:44And I think going under center, we've talked about it a lot in regard to the Bengals, how going under center can
29:50make you more explosive on the ground because there are only so many concepts you can run from the gun.
29:56So beyond adding Kenneth Walker to the mix, going under center, I think, potentially gives you a more explosive ground game.
30:02So the fact that they're coming at it from two directions, I believe in that part happening.
30:06And I think if you're going to be under center, you're going to use more play action because you have to, right?
30:12It's the only way for that all to come together.
30:15So that part I see, I respect, and I believe in what that's going to look like.
30:20My big issue, and I think an issue that a lot of people have brought up if you have some reservations about
30:26this team, the receiving core is the same, right?
30:28For the most part, we're relying on the same guys that trotted out a year ago.
30:33So on early downs, we can be more explosive under center with Kenneth Walker.
30:37When it's third and seven, teams are still going to be playing a lot of man coverage and challenging this group because
30:43of the limitations that they showed last year. So whether it's based on what you've seen or what you've asked, why should
30:49we anticipate the passing game being more capable in some of those situations than they were a year ago if all the
30:55pass catchers are going to be the same? It's a really good question.
30:59I think you can bank on a little bit of the pass catchers being improved or better.
31:03Now, it's not the skill type you're talking about because I know we talked to the combine when you were saying this chiefs team needs a Juwan Jennings.
31:11They need that guy and then they didn't go get that guy.
31:14Yeah, yeah. So the one change in personnel is Cyrus Allen and he's a fifth round pick, but he has impressed in
31:21camp with some of the quick movement stuff, the man beating stuff, the thing that has been their bugaboo over time.
31:26So there's potentially a little hope with that. Again, it's a rookie.
31:30So you think that's real? You think this is beyond like normal camp hype for a day three pick?
31:35Like you think he can be more involved than a fifth round pick typically would be?
31:39Or are we pulling back the reins on that a little bit?
31:43So I've got a great anecdote from Andy Reid here, and this is what I feel.
31:47So I feel like the chiefs coaches ask a lot of their receivers.
31:51They've been getting Cyrus to do all the different positions, which is great for him getting on the field, but also tough
31:57for him to learn everything and to be able to know all of that stuff and have all that knowledge in you.
32:03And you've gone through the past with the chiefs.
32:05I mean, Rasheed Rice had a good rookie season.
32:08It was late in his rookie season. Xavier Worthy had a good rookie season.
32:12It was late in his rookie season. It takes those guys some time.
32:15But a great anecdote from Andy Reid. He said that in the preseason game against the Rams that Cyrus Allen went out there.
32:22He lined up in the wrong spot. They run the play.
32:25Mahomes throws it to him anyway for a completion.
32:27So it's the perfect thing for me of where Cyrus is.
32:30You're talking about, is this real? Like what is real for this?
32:34I mean, you know, fifth round pick. He's not poking to Kula.
32:37OK, we can stop there. But like somebody was giving me the comparison of like Stefan Diggs and his rookie year, what he did.
32:44And it was somewhere around 50 catches, 500 yards.
32:46I mean, if you can give them an element and hey, a safety valve against man coverage, that's not Travis Kelsey anymore.
32:52That's a big deal for them. But my question is exactly what I just talked about, which is this is an offense that is so built on details.
33:00It's so built on preciseness. It's so built on.
33:02We have to have you in the right spot for Patrick Mahomes.
33:06And he has to trust you being there. That is that going to happen with Cyrus Allen?
33:10And in the preseason, you let him play through.
33:13Oh, you didn't line up exactly right. In the regular season, there's just not as much appetite for that sort of thing.
33:19So I think it's an interesting dynamic. I do think the shiftiness, the speed that he really didn't test to in college is real.
33:26How much will that be in this first year?
33:28I don't know. But I do think the upside is high for him.
33:32And to your earlier point, it is something that they don't have and something that this receiving course needed for a while.
33:38Yeah, I don't need for him to be Puka Nakua like that.
33:41I don't that's not for me. It's more like, is he going to be when we look at the snap count at
33:47the end of the year and the routes run?
33:50Is he going to be within spitting distance of Xavier Worthy and Rishi Rice?
33:54Is he going to be like the third most used receiver on the team?
33:58Is he going to be in the mix and in the rotation?
34:01If that is going to happen, that's more than enough for you to feel good about him bringing a different element to
34:07the groups that they've had over the last couple of years.
34:10And it sounds like there's a possibility of him being that level of player and contributor early on.
34:15Yeah, they're impressed by him. They like him. And a lot of their rookies, what's interesting about this particular class is you
34:21talk about him, Peter Woods, Emmitt Johnson, Montser Delane coming with a trying to get the right word, like a humble, ready to learn sort of attitude.
34:29I mean, these guys with the Chiefs, they rave about Cyrus's ability to like take coaching and improve himself and not be resistant to it.
34:36And, you know, I'm not sure if they've had that in the past with some guys and maybe it's limited their growth,
34:42but the fact that they're talking about that with him so far, I think is a positive sign.
34:47But it gets to the whole puzzle with this, which for the Chiefs is it's fine if he's your third or fourth receiver.
34:53If you can rely on Rasheed Rice to be on the field, if you can rely on Xavier Worthy to not get
34:59hurt and run the full route tree, if you can rely on Taequann Thornton to be your field spacer.
35:04But the question becomes, what if one or two of those guys gets hurt?
35:08Then what are you asking Cyrus Allen to do?
35:11And then is it too much for a rookie, again, who's still trying to figure out what position he's in, where he
35:17needs to line up on the field and have all those things happen and then go run a route without thinking?
35:23That's the big thing in the Chiefs offense. Once you can go do things and let your natural ability show without thinking, you're in a great spot.
35:30It just normally takes about half a season for those guys.
35:33Maybe Cyrus Allen is the exception. So let's talk about a couple of those other guys, because for all of the rave
35:39reviews about Cyrus Allen coming out of training camp, for as good as it sounds like his camp has gone, from the
35:45outside, it feels like Rasheed Rice has been on the exact other end of that.
35:49Has Rasheed Rice's showing so far and the expectations for Rasheed Rice been as bad as I have been led to believe
35:56it has been based on the very little I have read about his time so far in training camp?
36:01So the videos are not good if you look at some of the separation stuff.
36:05Like the very first, I'm sure you saw it, like the first post route he ran in the first practice.
36:11It looked like he was feet in quicksand. It has gotten better since then.
36:14And I think the Chiefs internally, their hope is that it keeps getting better and that you're working through this thing.
36:20And he is a ramp up period. You know, he still is getting in game shape.
36:25He's having to trust in you. I think that very first day in the videos you saw, it's a guy that was
36:31going out there like this thing just got surgically repaired.
36:34I didn't really get a full rehab like I would have at the team facility because I was in jail.
36:39Well, I don't know how this thing is going to respond.
36:42I know you have to laugh about that. It's a true sentence.
36:45So I just said it. But that sort of thing is like, do I trust this thing?
36:50Do I trust it? And it did not look like that first day he trusted.
36:54It's gotten gradually better. What's so interesting about the Chiefs this year in the whole NFL training camp just ended for the Chiefs.
37:01And yet it's like three and a half weeks until they play a game.
37:05So there's still time here for him to get that back at the explosion.
37:08The other thing I would caveat it with is, you know, I just said it earlier.
37:13Rasheed Rice is not a beat man coverage guy.
37:15He's a throw out on the flat and have him bowl over to other guys and gain 12 yards and be the yak monster of these bends.
37:23So they need somebody else. The yin to the yang.
37:26They need a Cyrus Allen type. They need to move away from Travis Kelsey having to be that third down security blanket
37:32for Patrick Mahomes every single time because he is losing a step.
37:35You know, father time comes from us all for us all.
37:38But yeah, I think he can still thrive in the Chiefs offense because they love what he does and how he turns
37:44into a running back after he catches and how he bowls guys over.
37:48And he can still be effective at that if somebody else is taking on some of these other roles that they need.
37:54So that's where Cyrus and him can play into each other and potentially help each other out.
37:59But as far as Rasheed Rice goes, it has not looked pretty.
38:02If the explosion doesn't come back, it's a concern.
38:04But I do think there's enough time for it to come back.
38:08And it would make sense why he's not trusting this knee as he might have a season ago.
38:13I think the other reason for potential optimism with this team is that the offensive line, in theory, should be better this
38:19year because mostly because it should be healthier. Right.
38:21And so how Josh Simmons has just been good to go from day one here?
38:25Yeah, he's he's been good to go. He's been out in the last couple of days with a back ailment.
38:31But it's weird with these Chiefs injuries like they don't see any of them as very severe.
38:36OK, everybody should be good for week one. Again, it's one of those camp things like, hey, let's give him a couple of days.
38:42The thing about Josh Simmons is so he is a freak athletically freak.
38:46He added a little bit of weight coming back into camp.
38:49He's not the normal 310, 320 type, you know, the anchor in your butt to keep you anchored down.
38:54But I mean, he's so freaky athletically that they feel good about his potential and what he could become.
38:59But I think you're right, Robert. I mean, when you talk about the Chiefs, I remember going back to the combine and
39:06Brett Veach talking to us and saying for the Chiefs, they need to focus on their interior three and becoming more of a downhill run team.
39:13And you talk about Kingsley Somatia, who had a great year left guard after he moved from left tackle.
39:18Creed Humphrey, all pro. Trey Smith, one of the richest right guards in NFL history.
39:22Those guys need to not be as much RPO.
39:25Can I hold on to the guy? Can I keep him here sort of thing?
39:29They need to get downhill and knock somebody on their butt.
39:32And so that's more what the Chiefs are looking into this year.
39:35Plus, you have a guy with vision now when he comes to Kenneth Walker and being able to see some scenes.
39:41And I am going to give you great news, Robert, based off of a recent podcast, which is if I could not
39:47be higher from Hope Your League is a PPR or at least half PPR, because they are throwing screens all over the
39:53place to Kenneth Walker in practice and also in the red zone.
39:57They're handing it to him all the time. So this is not like a two down back roll like he had in Seattle.
40:03They are looking to get him the ball and make him a workhorse.
40:07And so he could win some fantasy leagues this year as long as he stays healthy.
40:11But a lot of that will be him being behind the best offensive line he's ever been behind.
40:16That should be this Chiefs team if they can stay healthy as well.
40:20Oh, that's my song, baby. I appreciate that. That's exactly what I like to hear.
40:24The question I have along the offensive line, what's going on at right tackle?
40:28Because my assumption was just that Jalen Moore was probably going to get that job.
40:32But it sounds like that's maybe a little bit more unsettled than you might have thought coming into training camp.
40:37It's been really weird. And you talk about this offensive line being a strength.
40:41I agree with that. It's a strength if it's healthy.
40:44And we saw last year they weren't healthy and it really was a weakness.
40:48This year, the interior. I think there's a lot of question marks there because what's happened is when their right guard has
40:54been out, when Trey Smith, they've moved one of those two tackles in Jalen Moore or Khalil Benson to right guard.
41:00And then when Josh Simmons has been out, they've moved one of those guys to left tackle.
41:04So you're really trying to settle this right tackle battle for the Chiefs.
41:08And yet they keep trying to basically say, well, we like these six guys better than anybody else.
41:13If there's an injury, we're going to sub these guys over here.
41:16But it's like, wait a minute. You need a right tackle.
41:19You need to. If you are going to start Khalil Benson game one, Khalil Benson, undrafted rookie free agent of Indiana.
41:25Not only that, he was a tryout guy. He showed up at Chiefs rookie minicamp.
41:29They called him, said, hey, you want to come try out with 100 other guys?
41:33He said, sure. And he makes these one of three that signs among 100 guys that show up to camp.
41:39I looked this up and you'll appreciate this, Robert, from True Media.
41:42I looked it up since 2000. There have been two other undrafted rookies who have started as a rookie at tackle in the NFL.
41:49Two of them. One had major off field issues.
41:51The other guy had an injury in camp where he had to step in for the other guy who was injured.
41:57This never happened. Was Lyle Collins? What's that? Was Lyle Collins one of them?
42:01I'll pull up the list for you and we can put it in the notes.
42:05But I did pull up. One was with the Chargers and one was with the Vikings.
42:10Oh, interesting. OK. It was craziness just to kind of go back and be like, this never happens.
42:15And this is a tryout guy. So it's unprecedented if the Chiefs are going to do this sort of thing and put
42:21Khalil Benson in a right tackle to start. Jalen Moore's had a good last week or so.
42:26I think they're going to go with the veteran.
42:28I think they're going to stick with him. And then that would allow Khalil Benson to be some interior depth for them,
42:34just in case the worst case scenario happens. But this thing is not officially settled yet.
42:39So if Benson does become the right tackle for them, it's a big question mark.
42:43It's a big risk. But also be a great story because this sort of thing never happens in the NFL.
42:48Let's go to the players that they invested a lot more in in this rookie class.
42:53And that is all the guys they drafted on defense.
42:55I think the hope for the defense, if you're trying to build the optimistic case here, is that the baseline has been fine.
43:02Right. I mean, this team was, I think, 13th in EPA per play on defense last year.
43:07There's a certain floor established with the guys they have plus Steve Spagnuolo.
43:10The hope is the young guys that you added in the draft.
43:13Can that give you a certain injection of talent, of pop to kind of take this thing a step forward and take it to a slightly different level?
43:21That's the plan. What does that plan look like in practice so far based on what you've seen from the young players that they added?
43:28Yeah, real quick. I didn't want to leave the cliffhanger here too long.
43:322012 Michael Harris of the Chargers. 2018 Desmond Harrison of the Browns are your two tackles that started as undrafted rookies in their first game as rookies.
43:39Not something that happens very often. But I agree with your point.
43:43The Chiefs needed some juice from after last year.
43:45And I think if you look around the NFL and the teams that were in the Final Four last year, you talk
43:51about teams that had not only good defensive lines, but defensive line rotations, guys they could bring in.
43:56And how often, I mean, the big thing we think about with Chris Jones from last year is the game against Trevor
44:02Lawrence, against the Jaguars, game point, and he's walking.
44:05He's not going to the quarterback. But in Chris Jones' defense, he's played more snaps as a defensive tackle than anybody that's
44:11out there because there's been nobody around him. They just keep cycling these veterans who aren't very good and haven't had much production.
44:17Let's go with Derek Nottie again. One more year, Derek Nottie.
44:20Trade back Derek Nottie. The plan this offseason is no more Derek Nottie, retread sort of stuff.
44:25Go get real guys. And so, yeah, they went outside Kairos Tonga immediately.
44:29What's been cool about watching Kairos is you see these one-on-one battles in training camp and Creed Humphrey dominates all of them
44:35all the time since I've been covering it five years.
44:37Kairos has got him a couple of times. And you're like, oh, that's different.
44:41Derek Nottie didn't get him. You know, Kairos Tonga gets him every once in a while.
44:46But you talk about the juice. You know, Peter Woods, he had a minor ankle injury here about a week ago.
44:52So we haven't seen that same juice from him.
44:54But early on in one-on-ones, man, you saw some stuff from him.
44:57You saw the quick hands. He's down to 308 pounds.
45:00It kind of they want him to be quicker inside.
45:03Whereas Clemson, I think, bulked him up, trying to make him, you know, a two-gapper sort of thing.
45:08They saw the potential in the other guy who I looked a year ago at this time, actually a year ago to the day.
45:15Our Dane Brugler at the Athletic had Peter Woods as his number one prospect a year ago in 2025 for this class.
45:21So you're seeing more potential that hopefully gets healthy.
45:23But then the Chiefs had a couple of plays against the Rams in the preseason.
45:27Our Mason Thomas, this is the defensive end. They just never have the speed rusher around the edge who can clean up on third down.
45:34And they really missed that guy a season ago and twice.
45:37Our Mason Thomas came around the end, got pressures and forced a play that the Chiefs couldn't get a season ago on
45:43defense to get them off the field or to create some havoc that they couldn't to be able to, you know, move
45:49on in the possession and get the ball back to the offense.
45:53So I do see some more juice. They needed that.
45:56And what's so interesting about the Chiefs, we think about the veterans, the Patrick Mahomes, the Travis Kelseys of the world, the Chris Jones.
46:02If you look at like average age of the team, the Chiefs are one of the youngest out there.
46:07They have a lot of young dudes, so it'll be interesting to see how this comes together.
46:12But I think the best version of this Chiefs defense is led by a defensive line that has not always been the
46:18strength outside of Chris Jones and then letting Spags do Spags things off of that.
46:22And if that unit leads the Chiefs, I think that's going to be the best the best potential of this defense if you're looking at 2026.
46:30And I'll be curious to see what that looks like.
46:32Spags doing Spags up on the back end, because when this defense was at its best, when they were scariest during that
46:382023 season, they could really play man coverage, be aggressive, be the enforcer.
46:42Enforce the issue. By going out and getting Mansour Delane, what we saw from Noah Williams last year, again, from the outside,
46:48it feels like, can we get back to that place?
46:51Can we add those sorts of skill sets? First question, Mansour Delane, again, we're recording this on August 20th.
46:56He's back practicing, correct? And what has that looked like so far?
47:00So he has come back. He's made some plays.
47:02He is so fun to watch because he is so grabby.
47:05He is so physical out there. But that's kind of what I'm saying, right?
47:09Him being there, isn't that a breadcrumb to pick up on about how they might want to play?
47:14It is so Spagsian. And they always, it's interesting to hear the Chiefs talk about it because Spags will talk about, hey,
47:20this guy got a penalty last game. What do you do?
47:23How do you try to coach that out of him?
47:26He goes, it's okay with me. I'd rather try to teach aggression down than say, hey, these guys aren't out there grabbing
47:32enough, you know, to see what you can get away with or to see, hey, lose that physical mentality.
47:37I mean, part of that is bringing a little Jerry Snead back as well.
47:41Having that mentality of a guy who goes out there and knows what Spags wants and wants that physicality.
47:46But what was kind of the joke around, I mean, Mansour has been so physical that in yesterday's practice, they put those
47:52mitts on him, you know, like the boxing sparring mitts so that he couldn't grab anybody.
47:57And it's like, yeah, this dude needs that. Like he needs to stop grabbing everybody in a row because at some point
48:03in the NFL they are going to call it.
48:05I'm a little worried based off of the Chiefs covering them.
48:08Spags is so focused on spring practices, summer practices, getting a guy in the system, having faith in him and having him know the play calls.
48:16So with Mansour until this last week, they had him do kind of mental reps and then run off the field out of the huddle.
48:23He has not gotten that full slate. And if you hear Spags talk about him, he keeps saying we need him out there.
48:29Like he's missing out on something. He's missed. So I'm a little bit worried.
48:33Obviously, sixth pick overall is a bigger deal than like last year.
48:36Christian Fulton comes in as a free agent, has a knee cleanup surgery, isn't available in training camp until the last week and then goes MIA.
48:43And they don't play him because there's not that faith built up.
48:47But it's a different beast with Mansour Delaney. I get that.
48:50But just a little bit concerned because of the lack of reps there and gaining that trust that Steve Spagel needs to throw you out there.
48:57But your breakout big Noah Williams, I don't know if we're going to get to him next.
49:02He's a great last few days have been great.
49:04He played great in the game against the Rams.
49:07And so it seems sure seems like he's ready for a bigger role and could be one of those breakout players.
49:12But Delaney right now trending in the right direction, really physical.
49:16But yeah, we'll Spagel trust him. Will he be ready to put him in man coverage when the lights come on bright?
49:22That'll be the question. Two more questions. One, they have used Jamari Connor in the slot a lot over the last couple of years.
49:28I can understand that, but I also think that there are coverage deficiencies that eventually started to matter because of what his limitations look like.
49:35Do you see him playing more full-time safety this year based on how that room is constructed?
49:40And if that is the case, what does the slot corner spot look like over the course of the year?
49:45Yeah, you want to talk about the Chiefs beefing up a defensive line?
49:49They did the same thing as slot corner. And for the exact reasons you talked about, you know, they went out and
49:55got Cater Coe, who they have Chris Roland Wallace in-house, who got injured at the end of last year.
50:00It was kind of a safety and a corner safety nickel sort of hybrid.
50:04He's been taking most of the one snaps. And then they drafted Jayden Kennedy in the fourth round.
50:09So they have three different options there that they can go to to keep Shamari Connor in the back.
50:15What's so interesting is going out and practice and then hearing the words because we've seen Shamari Connor at safety almost every single play.
50:21And so then I asked Steve Spagnuolo, I said, what is the plan with Shamari Connor's chair?
50:26He goes, well, we still think we can rotate him and play him nickel.
50:30And it's like, OK, I know you don't want to get away trade secrets.
50:34I get it. But I'm here every day of practice.
50:36They want to move him to safety and come downhill, fit in the run game.
50:41Should be a much better fit on all ways for him to move back toward the back end and play more to
50:47his strengths than they did the last couple of years.
50:49Who has stood out in a surprise way on that side?
50:52As you've watched every single day of practice, maybe who's going to be more of a contributor, difference maker, a guy who
50:59lends to the way that this defense feels in a way that I don't appreciate right now as somebody who's not watching practice every day?
51:05Yeah, well, again, you know, but the big name players I'd start with, I would start with Peter Woods, just that it's hard.
51:12Andy Reid even said this. He said it back a few months ago, but you see the number 99 on his jersey.
51:18And he even kind of backed off the quote once he said it, because he knew I don't want to make headlines.
51:24Andy Reid never wants to make headlines. But he said, you see some Aaron Donald like qualities.
51:29You know, you see you squint hard enough. You go, I see the movement skills that made that guy a beast.
51:35And this guy has a little bit of that juice.
51:37Now, what's a little scary for the Chiefs is that last year, a year ago, they had Omar Norman Lott, their second round pick, had an ankle injury.
51:45He played through it. And then like a few weeks later towards ACL and was out the season this year.
51:51Peter Woods wasn't playing as well. Got an ankle injury.
51:53He's playing through it. It's like maybe you want to back off.
51:57I don't know. They're having him play through it.
51:59And we'll see if he gets that explosion back.
52:02I haven't seen that the last couple of days.
52:04But if so, if he shows what he flashed a couple of weeks ago, the Chiefs will be really happy with that first round pick.
52:11I would mention Chris Roland Wallace as well. I mean, he's going to be a starter in the slot unless something goes completely wrong.
52:18And so if he solves that issue for them and allows that chess piece to still move up back, those things that Steve Spagnuolo likes.
52:25What's so fascinating is the Chiefs taking Montsor to lane with number six, because there's always seems to be this type of
52:31player that Steve Spagnuolo falls in love with and plays a lot.
52:34And this year it's going to be Chris Roland Wallace.
52:37So he should be a guy at the nickel for the Chiefs who should contribute a lot of snaps and should be
52:43in there for a lot of plays that people might not know about just yet.
52:47Finding a workable nickel in the fourth round is a little bit different than when you want to play a little bit more.
52:54F*** you, man coverage. Those guys are a little bit harder to find in the fourth round.
52:58And so I think that might be the thought process behind taking a little bit of a bigger swing on Matt Sorrelane.
53:04Jesse Newell, always appreciate it, sir. Great to get your insight.
53:07We will do it again soon. All right. Appreciate it.
53:10Joining us now, it is our Packers writer here at the Athletic, Matt Schneidman.
53:14How are you doing, sir? I'm great. How are you?
53:17I'm doing well. This is my last one of these.
53:20Excellent. You got a quick drive back to Chicago after this?
53:23I'm not as quick as I'd like. Leaving about when I'm about to leave.
53:26Probably tacking on like 45 minutes more than I want.
53:29But it makes it easy. It's only getting back and forth from here to there.
53:33It barely counts as like a training camp stop.
53:36I could sleep in my own bed tonight. Well, welcome back to Green Bay.
53:40How did you enjoy the day? It was good.
53:42It was good. It was a beautiful day. It was great.
53:45I mean, it was gorgeous outside. I mean, that was a perfect day.
53:49Truly like a cloudless 75-degree day in Green Bay watching some football.
53:52It doesn't get any better than that. How are you feeling about this team right now?
53:57Yeah, I don't really know. I don't. What were you going to say?
54:00Well, we've had this conversation. We have this conversation every summer.
54:03And I feel like each year there's this, all right, there's this like smoldering level of young talent on this team.
54:09Can they kick the door down? And then when they didn't do it last year, I think it kind of reframes the conversation that you're having.
54:16But I don't know where it puts us. Like they're kind of confounding because it does feel a little bit different than
54:22the tenor of the discussions we've been having for the last couple of years of the Matla Fleur era.
54:28Sure. I think this is probably the first year where that youth and inexperience has turned into, okay, now you've got to perform.
54:34I think that was their last year after they made the Micah trade.
54:38It was like, okay, this is not an excuse anymore.
54:40And people inside the building have never really used it as an excuse.
54:44It's more of a justification. And we're playing with house money.
54:47They never said that, but that's just what I'm saying.
54:50Now it's, okay, now there's pressure. You just gave your head coach what I'm assuming is a massive extension.
54:55Official dollar signs haven't been made public. This is year two of the going all in per se after the Micah trade.
55:01But I just get the sense, and I like to think I have a pretty good pulse of the fan base, that
55:07there's just some apathy among the fan base because they've been a seven seed for three straight years.
55:12They've had these premature playoff exits. And after that 23 playoff quote unquote run where they go in and slaughter the Cowboys
55:18in Jordan Love's first year starting and then have a lead in the fourth quarter against the 49ers in the divisional round,
55:24it's kind of petered out after that. It feels like a long time ago.
55:28That felt like the height of the excitement, and it's been a while since then.
55:33Right, but I also think something that is very worthwhile to note is that entering week 15 last year, the Packers were 9-3-1.
55:39First place in the division coming off Keyshawn Nixon interception at the buzzer against the Bears on fourth down.
55:44Second in the NFC behind, I believe, the Seahawks at the time.
55:47They were in prime position to challenge for that one seed.
55:51Then they go to Denver, and Zach Bakubulele, who's not Zach Tom anymore, their best offensive lineman by far, suffers a partially
55:57torn patellar tendon and doesn't play again for the rest of the season.
56:00Keep in mind, Jordan Love was third in MVP odds entering week 15 behind Stafford and Drake May.
56:05They go into Denver. Jordan dices up the Broncos, one of the best defenses in the league in the first half.
56:11They're up nine in the third quarter. He throws a perfect deep ball to Christian Watson that might have put them up
56:17by 16, and that's pretty much game over. Patrick Sertan makes an incredible interception, lands awkwardly on Watson, and Christian Watson gets
56:23ambulanced off to the hospital because they're worried about dislocated ribs.
56:26Oh, and then a couple minutes after that, Micah Parsons tears his ACL.
56:30So that game in Denver was a physical and emotional blow to the Packers' hopes.
56:34They did not win again after that. They were 9-3-1 in prime position for a division championship.
56:39They lose their best offensive lineman, their best overall player.
56:41Watson ended up being fine, but that's like a blow.
56:44And then they just collapse that game. The next week in Chicago, Jordan Love gets concussed, and he doesn't play again for the rest of the regular season.
56:52And then we know what happened in the playoffs against the Bears.
56:55So Parsons is going to be back probably week six against the Cowboys.
56:59Arguably the best tight end in the NFL who missed the entire second half of last season with a torn ACL is back.
57:05He's playing week one, probably without a snap count.
57:08They're getting their best interior D lineman back in Devontae Wyatt, and they have their best offensive lineman back.
57:13So while there is some – I say all that to say, while there is some apathy, I also think we need
57:19to remember where the Packers were entering that Denver game last year.
57:22And the fact that they're almost at that level, if not better this time around.
57:27Because I think Kraft is your third most important player on this team behind Love and Parsons, and he's back to almost full strength.
57:33I don't disagree with any of that. And I think that's – it's a weird tension when you're talking and thinking about
57:39this team where I do think apathy – I'm not to the point of apathy, but I think that there is a little bit of like, eh.
57:47For sure. Like why would they be better? You know, like we've had this excitement about this team each of the last couple off seasons.
57:54They've fallen short of that. Why should I have the excitement again?
57:57But everything that you just said is right. And so where you fall between those two, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, right?
58:04But you look – let's take it individually. The quarterback I think is still underrated in how we talk and think about
58:10the quarterback and like how good he is in the pecking order and what you're capable of when he's the quarterback.
58:16But the rest of the – I think there are two places I would land when it comes to the maybe lack of excitement compared to last year.
58:24I think we've talked a lot about this show.
58:26Other people I think are more worried about it than me, but it has come up a lot is the quality of the offensive line.
58:33Like the offensive line is just not that good of a unit and will that hold them back from being a top
58:39five offense like they had each of the last couple years?
58:42Are they really worse than they were at the end of last season along the offensive line?
58:47You know, Rasheed Walker played a solid left tackle for them last year.
58:51I was shocked that he only got like a one-year $4 million deal from the Panthers.
58:55I just think there are a lot of question marks on the offensive line.
58:59They might be better, but Jordan Morgan, who is their 2024 first-round pick, he is – yeah, 2024 first-round pick.
59:04He's starting at left tackle. He's never played meaningful snaps there in the NFL.
59:08He was a college left tackle at Arizona. They've moved him around between left guard, right guard, right tackle, the bench.
59:14Now he's getting a chance to play his favorite position, and he's been doing so well so far.
59:19Left guard is Aaron Banks. They signed him to a four-year $77 million deal in last year's free agency from the 49ers.
59:25He's always hurt. He was healthy for a little bit at the end of last season and played well, but he's still
59:31kind of working his way back to full strength.
59:34So that's a big question. So is left tackle.
59:36Center, Sean Ryan. He took over after Elton Jenkins went down for the season last year.
59:41Played pretty well. They extended him three years, $33 million.
59:43So he's a solid center. Right guard, Anthony Belton was their second-round pick last year out of NC State.
59:49He's a tackle, but they played him at right guard.
59:51He started seven games there, took over that job from Jordan Morgan, started the second half of the season.
59:57He's been so bad in pass protection that he's no longer – I mean, Adam Stenevich says he's in the right guard competition still, but he's realistically not.
60:05He's their swing tackle. He's their swing tackle. He's their back-up right tackle.
60:08His pass protection has not been good. So in comes Jacob Monk, who was a fifth-round pick a couple years ago out of Duke.
60:15Missed a lot of the offseason because he tore his pec, I believe, in the playoff game.
60:19He hasn't played any meaningful snaps really for this team ever, but it's the right guard competition is between him and Jagger
60:26Burton, who's a rookie fifth-round pick out of Kentucky.
60:28So more unknown there. And then right tackle is the guy who doesn't look like his normal all-pro caliber self.
60:34Two years ago when Zach – call him ZBB.
60:36We'll call him ZBB. He received the third most all-pro votes among right tackles behind Panay Sewell and Lane Johnson.
60:42Then they signed him to a four-year, $88 million extension.
60:44He's the third best right tackle in football when he's healthy, but he hasn't looked quite back to his normal self.
60:50And there still is that question of are you getting that same guy coming off offseason surgery?
60:55So there's questions at pretty much four out of five spots on the offensive line.
60:59I think that's right. I think my devil's advocate point would be that's kind of how it was last year.
61:05And it wasn't great last year. But they were still a top-five offense, right?
61:09They were still capable of being really dynamic on offense.
61:11And so I guess that's like – and part of me thinks that LaFleur has done such a good job of scheming
61:17around that group when it hasn't been great. Can that happen again?
61:21But I just don't know where I land with it.
61:23Like I understand the arguments on either side of it.
61:26But I think they would – I think they believe they could get better left tackle point out of Jordan Morgan than
61:32they got from Rasheed Walker last year. Certainly. And I think a couple other important things just to put a bow on this offense talk.
61:39It's important to remember Christian Watson missed the first seven games of last year while recovering from a torn ACL.
61:45He is their number one receiver. He is a legitimate threat.
61:48Jaden Reed missed 10 weeks last year after breaking his collarbone in week two.
61:52So when Watson came back midseason, Reed was still out.
61:54And then Tucker Craft, who – when Tucker Craft went down last year in week nine, the week before on Sunday Night
62:01Football in a win over the Steelers, seven catches for 143 yards and two touchdowns.
62:05When he went down, he was first among all tight ends in yards after catch per reception, third among all tight ends
62:11in receiving yards, and tied for second in touchdown catches.
62:14He's a great blocker. He said, I thought I was the best tight end in the NFL when I went down.
62:19You're having those three – those three guys are never on the field at the same time.
62:24Now they're on the field at the same time.
62:27And you have year two of Matthew Gold in their first-round pick last year who's looked awesome in camp.
62:32He did last year too. And you don't have – you know, Romeo Dobbs and Dontavian Wicks were solid players for this team.
62:38Romeo Dobbs probably more than solid. But you know this.
62:41The story with this team is always they don't have a true number one.
62:45They just give the ball to whoever's open. And that probably stunted some of Matthew Golden's rookie expectations because they just give
62:51the ball four or five times a game to six different guys.
62:54Now it's a defined top three with Watson, Reed, and Golden.
62:57And then you have arguably the league's best tight end and a quarterback who's exceptional at avoiding sacks and navigating a dirty pocket.
63:04The run game's a huge question because you don't know if their feature back is going to get suspended for six games.
63:10That is still to be determined. And Marshawn Lloyd, who would then be the starter, has played one game in his first two years.
63:16And even though he's extremely explosive, you can't count on his health yet.
63:20So their passing game I think can be great.
63:23But their offensive line and their run game, a lot of questions.
63:26Where I land with it is that I think the offensive line most likely shakes out in the general range of what
63:32it was for most of last year. And if that happens and the pass game is healthier and more dynamic than it
63:38was last season, shouldn't this team be scary on that side of the ball?
63:42I think the answer is yes. Again, and I just don't think I maybe maybe I'm kind of on an island here.
63:48Maybe I shouldn't be putting this on other people.
63:51I'm just not sure that's the type of conversation that a lot of people are having about the Packers right now, in
63:57part because of that apathy that you're talking about.
63:59And that's fair. I understand that. But I do think this team, when healthy, is still a legitimate Super Bowl contender.
64:05The big question, I guess, to transition it to the defensive side of the ball.
64:09Let's go to the receivers just really quickly. Yeah.
64:12As you're thinking about you said that Christian Watson's the number one receiver on this team.
64:16When you think about the pecking order, the workload, who is the prominence of these guys and how it shakes out?
64:22You think it's Watson, Golden, Reed? Watson, Reed, Golden, I'd say.
64:25OK, really? Yeah. OK. And even with the type of training camp that Golden has had, you still think that Jaden Reed
64:31is the second most important receiver on the team?
64:33100%. Yeah. I think, you know, Jaden Reed's first two years with the Packers in 23 and 24, he, I believe, led
64:40the team in both catches and receiving yards or touchdown catches.
64:43He led in a couple of those categories. Then last year, he misses, you know, two and a half months with a couple of surgeries.
64:50And I think people kind of forgot how important he is.
64:53He's far more than just a gadget piece. And I fall.
64:56You get a crazy contested catch today over the middle of the field.
64:59This is my eighth year covering this team. I've fallen victim to falling in love with guys in camp.
65:04And I think Golden's going to be a great player with more opportunities.
65:08But I'm not ready to be like, oh, he's above.
65:11I look back when I was on McAfee last summer, I saw a clip yesterday of me saying that Golden was the team's best receiver.
65:18I was like, all right, I need to maybe slow my roll a little bit here.
65:22So I'd still go Watson Reed Golden. But not by much.
65:25It feels like a good place to be if he's not as good of a camp as he has.
65:31For sure. And this is one of those where trying to figure out, oh, why didn't he get more opportunities last year?
65:37If he had such a good camp or he's such a talented player.
65:40That's such an easy explanation for me. It's one young receivers have a hard time acclimating to this offense because of what
65:46is asked of them in the detail. And two, the skill set they needed when they drafted Matthew Golden was they needed
65:52somebody who could win against man coverage consistently when this team got to third down because they couldn't do it two years ago.
65:59Well, Romeo Dobbs became that player. Right. So the reason that they needed Matthew Golden became way less important because you had
66:05a guy that ended up making $18 million a year take up the mantle and fill that role within the offense that you drafted the guy.
66:12In the first round to fill. It's an easy explanation.
66:15A hundred percent. And I think like I was saying, this offense is predicated not on feeding one guy the ball like
66:21it was when Aaron Rodgers had Devontae Adams. That was get the ball to Devontae Adams at all costs.
66:26He would have 12, 14 targets in a game.
66:29You're rarely going to see a guy with double digit.
66:31I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but you're not going to see a guy with double digit targets.
66:38The most likely one is Tucker Kraft. He's their best and most dangerous pass catcher, I think.
66:42But to have three receivers who I think all can be, you know, legitimate number two guys on any team in the league.
66:49It's a good problem to have. I think it is.
66:51And the only question I have is about those like big boy one on one situations where Romeo Dobbs improves so much
66:58as a route runner and like the physicality and the size really shows up in those moments.
67:02Like Golden is a physical player in the sense that we saw make a lot of contested catches in college.
67:08He'll go up and get the ball. But that frame is just different.
67:11And Watson's a bigger player, but he played his play style is just different than.
67:16Yeah, I think he's his hands have really improved, though.
67:18Like early in his career, his drops were a major problem and his hands have gotten so much better.
67:24And his contested catch ability has gotten a lot better in recent years.
67:27But I definitely hear what you're saying that they don't have that A.J.
67:31Brown type build, for example. They're more lanky guys, but I don't think it's a massive issue.
67:35I don't think it's a massive issue. Just stylistically a little bit different than I had last year.
67:40But as a group, they just have so much juice.
67:43Like that's the difference is that this is the most like collective explosiveness they've had among that group in a long time.
67:49And so I think there are positives and negatives.
67:52Like that's a positive. That is a benefit and a version of this group that we just haven't seen here.
67:57Let's go to the defense where a lot of the bigger questions are.
68:01Let's start with to me, who's playing cornerback for this team on the outside in week?
68:05I don't know. If you had to guess. Brandon Cissé and Keyshawn Nixon.
68:09That's what it seems like. Yeah, because. This team, as you know, is a draft and develop team.
68:14They don't draft guys to play them right away.
68:16Rashawn Gary took like three years to become a guy who earned her $24 million contract before kind of petering out here.
68:23They took Jair Alexander in 18th overall back in 2018.
68:25Brian Gutekunst's first draft pick. He didn't start right away.
68:28Eric Stokes, who they took in the first round in 21.
68:31He didn't start right away. They didn't have a first round pick this year.
68:35They take Brandon Cissé, corner out of South Carolina in the second round.
68:39He's going to start right away. Keyshawn Nixon. And I've said this a million times before.
68:43He's not supposed to be this team's number one corner.
68:46Jair Alexander. He made two all pro teams here and then became the richest corner in NFL history, then had a bunch
68:52of health problems and his career fizzled out here.
68:54He's not even 30 years old yet. He's still supposed to be the number one corner here.
68:59But Keyshawn Nixon was thrust into that full-time role.
69:02He's gone from a two-time all pro first-team kick returner to a nickel corner to a part-time outside corner to the full-time number one outside corner.
69:09And fans hate him because he's not a number one corner, but that's what the Packers need him to be.
69:14And some of the things he says piss them off too.
69:17But I still think he's one of the two best corners on this team.
69:21It is interesting, though. I didn't watch practice today because I was working on a different story where I wasn't watching team drills.
69:28But in recent weeks, they've rotated a lot at corner.
69:30And Keyshawn Nixon was working with the second team a couple times.
69:34So we asked Bobby Babich, who is their defensive passing game coordinator, was the Bills' defensive coordinator.
69:38What's going on with Keyshawn taking reps with the second team?
69:41He said, we have a cornerback competition. And then as we see that play out, there's one guy on this team who's not repping with the second team.
69:49Only one corner is exclusively working with the first team, and it's the rookie.
69:53You have Nixon, you have Carrington Valentine, Benjamin St.
69:56Juice, who's played for the Commanders and the Chargers, who they signed this offseason.
69:59Those are the other three guys who are in the mix for playing time.
70:03But I could very well see it being a rotation.
70:06And the problem is, when you have a questionable cornerback group like that, as long as you have a pass rush, you're fine.
70:13But guess who's missing the first month and a half of the season?
70:16Her best pass rusher. So I don't really have much faith in this defense until Micah Parsons returns.
70:21Yeah, I think they're going to have to get really creative until Micah Parsons returns.
70:25I think, to me, it comes on two fronts.
70:28One, do they turn up the heat just consistently?
70:30I think they probably will. They'll probably have to.
70:33I mean, this is... And Jonathan Gannon's funny because when he was in Philly, it was very simple.
70:38It was like, we're bringing five. Because they had the guys to do that.
70:42They could be as simple as they wanted. And then in Arizona, whatever the opposite of simple is, is the Arizona Cardinals defense.
70:48Buda Baker just going all over the place. But I think that's a lot of Nick Rollis.
70:53I think Jonathan Gannon... I always describe it as there was a very healthy, creative friction between those two guys.
70:58I think Jonathan Gannon really trusted Nick Rollis to be like, all right, this is your vision.
71:03I'm going to let you see this through. Even if maybe this isn't how I would do it in a vacuum.
71:09But our personnel lends to us playing this way.
71:11So I think it'll be more complex and more aggressive than it was in Philly, but not nearly as wonky as it
71:17was in Arizona, in part because they don't have the horses and they have to be.
71:22I remember Jeff Halfley's first year here in 2024.
71:24We later learned that when he got to Green Bay, he thought he was just going to be able to rush for
71:30and generate pressure that way with Rashawn Gary, Van Ness, the inside guys of Carl Brooks, Devontae Wyatt, Colby Wooden.
71:36I thought that too, by the way, because I thought that defensive line looked really good by the end of the 23 season.
71:42And then it never happened. But they weren't able to.
71:45So what Halfley ended up doing is a bunch of these simulated pressures where they'd crowd seven guys up at the line of scrimmage.
71:52And then they would drop a defensive end and Quay Walker, but send Edgerton Cooper and Xavier McKinney.
71:57And they just have to get crazy with all these looks and replacement fire zones, whatever they wanted to call them, because
72:03they couldn't just rush with a standard four. When you have Micah Parsons, you can because those guys who couldn't win their
72:09one-on-ones or couldn't win their double teams before were Sean Gary, you know, Devontae Wyatt, whoever else maybe wasn't getting home as much as the Packers would like.
72:17They have one-on-ones all the time because you have two, three guys on Micah Parsons.
72:21We've seen so many exotic looks and pressures this camp.
72:24And we talked to Micah a couple of weeks ago.
72:26He was like, yeah, we're not going to see much of that come the regular season because we're just going to pare it down so much.
72:34But I think back to 2024 with Jeff Halfley, and I was talking to Jordan Rodrigue about this when she was here
72:40recently, you're probably going to see two completely different pass rushes.
72:43First five games and then beyond, because you're going to see corners in the backfield.
72:47You're going to see Evan Williams coming through the slot.
72:50You're going to see, you know, Xavier McKinney in the backfield because you don't have Micah Parsons on the field.
72:55Unless Lucas Van Ness has had an incredible camp.
72:58Unless he becomes a true number one guy, then I think you have to get more creative.
73:02I think the other part that I'm really interested in is I think the most talented player on the defense, the front
73:08seven, the most talented player on the front seven that is not Micah Parsons.
73:12It's Edron Cooper. It's Edron Cooper. A hundred percent.
73:15And so how do you weaponize Edron Cooper as a pass rusher in a world where Micah Parsons is not on the field?
73:21To me becomes the most important question about the front seven before Micah gets back.
73:25A hundred percent. He's an all pro caliber player.
73:28I think he's in his third year now. He's gotten, I think, one all pro vote the last couple of years.
73:34I might be wrong about that, but he's an incredible player.
73:37He's still, I think, 24, 25 years old. He's going to be one of the best linebackers in this league.
73:42And then you pair him with a guy who I went to college with, Zaire Franklin.
73:47And 10 years after I covered him when he was a captain at Syracuse and I was a student reporter for the
73:53newspaper, he's, my guess, is about to be a captain for the Packers.
73:56And just the edge and the life he's kind of injected into this defense.
74:00He was an all pro two years ago. Not great last year, but if he can be even close to an all
74:06pro this year, like the linebacking core with Cooper and Zaire Franklin easily is the unit of those three levels of defense.
74:12I'm most confident in right now. Yeah, I think that's fair.
74:15And I think the, the, what's interesting to me is the part of the reason you can make this out your Franklin
74:22trade is I think they felt good about their interior defensive line depth and the guys that they could roll through there.
74:28That was something that came up today where like they, we really like the depth of that interior defensive line position.
74:33Not a lot of like big name guys, but I think they're, they feel like there's a lot of guys in that
74:40room they can lean on, even if there aren't a lot of household names as a part of it.
74:45Yeah. And we've seen six or seven different interior.
74:47It was impossible to keep track today. There were so many guys.
74:51We're writing down all the numbers on our notebook of all the guys who are starting.
74:55And it's like six or seven different guys. And I think part of that is just trying to keep guys fresh, but
75:01it's also like they don't really have Devante. Why it's their best one, but you have Javon Hargrave who played for Gannon
75:07in Philly, had 11 sacks for him a couple of years ago.
75:11Not the same player now, obviously, but I think he can still give you something.
75:15Carl Brooks, who's been a role player for this team the last couple of years.
75:19Warren Brinson, a second year guy out of Georgia, who's had a fantastic camp, just got injured, didn't practice today.
75:24I don't know how long he'll be out, but he's been having a great camp.
75:29Jonathan Ford, who was a seventh round pick of these guys in 22, went to the Bears last year.
75:34Then they picked him up and they brought him back here.
75:37He's six, five, three 38. He just gets in the way of people and he's been getting starters reps.
75:42And then a guy that none of your listeners will know or care about.
75:46There's a guy named Anthony Campbell, who's a second year player out of university of Miami.
75:50And he had one tackle last year in Miami while playing eight games.
75:54He was a bench player for the Miami hurricanes.
75:57There was one stretch earlier in camp where he had four pass breakups, batting stuff down at the line in three practices.
76:03And that's not all he does. He makes plays against the run.
76:06He made, he had a vicious sack in the game the other night.
76:10He's getting reps with the starters. So you get, you, this group could go six, seven deep just on the interior.
76:15And if it's just some of those guys can generate some pass rush while staying fresh because of that rotation, maybe they can tread water without Micah.
76:23The last thing I'll ask you, we do this for every team in the division previews.
76:27We're starting the division previews tomorrow. So it's on my mind.
76:30I'm very curious about your answer to this. What is success for the 2026 green Bay Packers?
76:35NFC championship game at minimum. I think if, if you have everyone healthy last year, they had the quote unquote excuse of
76:41having like four of their seven best players hurt and out for the year.
76:45If you have everyone healthy craft, Wyatt ZBB loves healthy.
76:48You got to get to the NFC chain. It's put up or shut up time for Matt LaFleur.
76:53I'm not saying that he's going to get fired if, if they Peter out again and get the seven seed, but one
76:59of my buddies, Bill Huber, another beat writer, he has this saying, it's not called NFC North title town.
77:04It's called title town because they're talking about Superbowl titles.
77:07Yeah. This team hasn't even won the division since 2021.
77:10Like you have to win the division. You got to win multiple playoff games.
77:14And I'm going to sound like a fan saying this, but I think this is how the fan base feels.
77:19This is the green Bay Packers. This isn't some rinky dink operation that accepts the seven seed in an early exit every year.
77:25You're not this young team with all these inexperienced players anymore.
77:29You just gave your head coach a boatload of money to extend them when a lot of people thought you shouldn't.
77:34You have all the core pieces you need to be a Superbowl team.
77:38It's put up or shut up time. So I think at minimum NFC championship game for a successful season.
77:43Well, you can make a, I think very real argument for any single team in the NFC North pretty easily.
77:49And so I could easily make one for the Packers.
77:51So the good news is I can make a pretty easy argument for why the Packers win the NFC North.
77:57The bad news is I could make a very similar argument for why they won't other teams in the NFC North.
78:03And I will say, um, I don't know when this airs, but I know five days from now, five days from now.
78:09Okay. So Jonathan Gannon will have already had his joint practice against the team that just fired him.
78:14And week one is Jonathan Gannon versus Kyler Murray Packers Vikings.
78:17So I'm very interested to see if Gannon kind of knows which buttons to press to make Kyler Murray uncomfortable in Minnesota.
78:23I realized that today in, in talking to people here and, uh, yes, it adds another little layer of intrigue to what
78:29that week one matchup is going to look like as if it didn't have enough.
78:33Match night, man. Always great to see you, sir.
78:36Always appreciate the time. We'll do it again soon.
78:38Absolutely. Joining us now, it is one of our esteemed bears writers here at the athletic.
78:43It's Kevin Fishbane. How you doing, man? I'm good.
78:45We've got a lot of bears writers. Always have a strong athletic tradition at the lakefront.
78:50We talk about this every single year, but the bears media contingent is always ridiculous.
78:54I mean, just the sheer number of people covering that team every single day.
78:58And it's a bears town. There's never any denying that when you see how many people are tasked full time with breathlessly covering every moment of this team.
79:05Do you want to do 25 minutes about a preseason incompletion?
79:08Do you want to start there? I did. I did a very dumb thing, um, in that I engaged on a social media app.
79:15That's name changed in recent years because, you know, Dan Weir and I wrote about what I liked to tongue in cheek Lee call the incompletion.
79:22Because I do think that it was a really great, uh, opening to understanding the quarterback coach dynamic, but, um, people, people
79:28were very angry about other takes on the incomplete pass.
79:31So we don't, we don't have to get into it.
79:34I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting. And I, and I completely understand how you guys were framing it.
79:40And I think it's very silly that people got all up in arms about it, knowing you and knowing your personality.
79:45I know you were making a joke about calling it that I, it's funny that this is one of those moments where
79:51I kind of side with Caleb Williams. Like I think in that situation, I like to see him be aggressive.
79:57There are times where I feel like he doesn't let the, like pull the trigger on those sorts of throws.
80:03And so I get where Ben Johnson's coming from.
80:05For those of you guys who don't know, there was an incompletion that he threw to Colson level in the preseason game
80:11that became a whole thing because Ben afterwards was like, I think I'd go somewhere else with the ball.
80:16And so it just led to just a certain level of discourse and it was an inaccurate pass.
80:21So that's also part of it. I also think the inaccuracy is partially driven by the fact that it's a really tough
80:27ball, because if he tries to layer that over the linebacker, it gets, it brings the safety into play.
80:33And so the trajectory he threw that with, I think it's completely fine.
80:36And if I'm first and 20, take a chance, take a chance.
80:40It's a preseason game. Let's figure out where the limits are.
80:43And so overall, I actually liked him making that choice in the moment, even if I think it's led to some consternation
80:49from a couple of different parties here. Yeah. Not to mention, I think seven out of 10 times Colson Loveland catches that
80:55pass, but again, not the best ball, but like, that's what Colson Loveland can do is make kind of impressive catches.
81:01The other part of it, which the interesting thing I thought was it showed you how analytical Ben Johnson can be.
81:06Yeah. That it was the down and distance that bothered him.
81:10It was, that it was first and 20. And it's like, okay, we don't want our aggressiveness to be here when it's
81:16first and 20, maybe first and 10, but you can see a little bit into his mind of like, it's first and 20.
81:22I don't need you. I don't need you doing that.
81:25Um, but yeah, like I think like if you're Caleb Williams, like if you're watching that, you want him to take that shot at a guy like Loveland.
81:33Um, it is, I thought it was really an interesting look into their dynamic.
81:36And I got a chance to talk to press Taylor, um, this week.
81:40And I love that he, one of the things he said was essentially, we are coaching Caleb really hard and he wants it.
81:46He's welcoming it. And like, that's a whole thing this summer is that like, they are being so particular with things, especially
81:52when it comes to ball placement and, and, and where the read is and all that stuff, because they trust that he wants that.
81:59And, you know, you're ideally you see the fruits of that labor.
82:02So let's talk about that because obviously last year, the installment of the offense and just, there was so much written and
82:09so much talked about the fact that those guys were just trying to keep their heads above water with everything they were throwing at them in the summer.
82:16And you saw a process that I think could have been pretty predictable knowing that context on like August 25th, the offense
82:22looked very uneven for the first four games. They get to the buy.
82:26And I think things really start to settle down over the final two thirds of the season as you've watched them this summer.
82:32And they've obviously talked about this pretty openly, just the fact that there's an increased level of, I think Ben Johnson specifically
82:38said he didn't want to use the word comfort because he doesn't like the idea that guys would be comfortable, but there's a familiarity right there.
82:46There is an understanding of we have the baseline level stuff down.
82:49What does step two of this look like? What does step two and version two of this Ben Johnson, Caleb Williams, Bears
82:55offense look like so far to you? It's just cleaner.
82:58It's just more concise. It's sharper. Like, you know, every year since I've been covering the team, I walk into training camp
83:04and I say, okay, can the quarterback sustain a drive for crying out loud?
83:08Like, can the quarterback just move the sticks? Like in a move the ball drill, can they actually move the ball?
83:14And last training camp, you were there. I mean, it was, it was bad.
83:18And then you saw that, as you said, in the first few weeks, the Cowboys game opened things up.
83:23They start really hammering the run game after Vegas.
83:25And we, we see what happens. And this year in camp, it's just been more methodical.
83:30And you're seeing like, he's staying in the pocket.
83:32He's just making just easy throws to Loveland, to Burden, to DeAndre Swift, you know, out in the flat, to Cole Komet.
83:38Like he's just, it's Roma Doonesy. I think he's had a really solid camp.
83:42Like he's just trusting his guys and taking his completions.
83:45And you're just seeing the offense just look smooth.
83:47And it's not like, it doesn't mean it's been this explosive thing that the defense can't stop.
83:52It doesn't mean they look like the 2013 Broncos, but it just, it just looks like an NFL offense should look this time.
83:59When you're, when you automatically have an advantage in a training camp setting, you should be able to complete passes at a pretty high rate.
84:05There are two different places. I think you can land with this.
84:09I think you can land in the good players go Burr part of this, where this thing is just going to go
84:15through the moon, where there's so much underlying young, explosive talent on this team, the quarterback, the tight end Luther burden in
84:21year two, what the run game looked like. I think there's the other side of it where we still need to see it.
84:27The fact that the offensive line feels a lot more unsettled last year without Dolman.
84:31And now you're, you're replacing the center. We still have a left tackle battle that we'll get into.
84:36The quarterback still needs to be more consistent. We can project him potentially doing that, but if he doesn't, this offense can't hit its ceiling.
84:43And so I want you to give me the case for this team becoming the sort of offense that Ben Johnson thinks they can be.
84:50And I want to get, I want to know what is still holding you back potentially in the case against that offense coming to fruition this year.
84:58I think Luther burden Colson level, or maybe the two best players on the team in training camp, like until Luther burden got hurt.
85:04Like, I mean, he's back by the way, we're recording this on the 27th.
85:08He's back practicing. So people can bring it easy on that.
85:11Right. He was an individual drills on Wednesday. So I think he's on track.
85:15Um, and it's not taking anything away from a dunes day who I think is also looked really good, but like you
85:21have these two guys and, and Robert, like how many times do we have the conversation of the year to jump?
85:27Like, that's just like, Oh, wide receiver, rookie year, full off season, strength and conditioning.
85:31He knows the offense. He's going to take this leap.
85:34So we do that with burden and Loveland. Cause we saw what they did the last seven weeks of the season, but they actually looked the part.
85:42So I think that the fact that those two guys looked so at, at times uncoverable, um, you can see what that can do for the offense.
85:49Um, and again, like, cause it's, you're in the spring, you're projecting, then you watch it in the summer.
85:54You're like, okay, like these guys, this thing could, could work.
85:57Yeah. On the flip side of that, you know, you, you mentioned, you mentioned offensive line.
86:02And I think that like when the games start in Cincinnati, the joint practice wasn't, it was really herky jerky.
86:07It was a little bit more like training camp last year.
86:10And Dexter Lawrence kind of blew up a lot of things that the bears wanted to do.
86:15And you just don't know when they face these live defense.
86:18Look, they get Brian floors in week two. And, and he's very familiar with Caleb Williams and the things that he's going
86:24to want Caleb to do and want to force him to do.
86:28And I just don't, I, as you said, there's still this unknown.
86:31This is year three. Like they're Ryan Polson said it himself last year.
86:34Like they still want to see what this thing can look like.
86:38We all know the potential of everything, but it just, you just want to see it against a live defense.
86:43Considering the offensive line situation, considering all these coaches around the league are going to do everything in their power.
86:49Not to let Caleb extend plays and try to take that magician hat away from him.
86:53So there, there is still, there is still an unknown.
86:56I do kind of like, I'd be curious your take.
86:59Like this whole idea of, well, the bears can't win games the way they did last year.
87:04It's like, well, sure. Like, of course, they also lost like four games in the final seconds that were coin flip games that they probably could have won.
87:11Also, you can, you can just say, I just think you can take that so many ways.
87:16Like nobody's sitting here thinking that they're going to come back in the final minute eight times again.
87:21Um, that's just life. I don't think that's like a big surprise.
87:24Um, but I do get that. Like this team has to start faster and we got to see it.
87:30I'm a big, you'll see him believe it. Like what, what does it seem to look like in the first quarter?
87:35Cause that was a huge problem last year. Yeah.
87:38I think that I agree with the idea that they can't win games the way that they did last year.
87:43Cause I think it's coming from two different spots.
87:46One, it's the late game comeback stuff, which just isn't going to happen again.
87:50It's just not, even if the overall record in one score games, wasn't in ridiculous the way it was for a team
87:56like the Broncos, there was still enough late game luck and late game fortunate bounces that are not going to happen again.
88:02To me, the bigger thing is just the turnover differential that that's offensively and defensively.
88:06Like this team just didn't turn the ball over very often in the regular season.
88:10And they took the ball away at just a ridiculous, absurd rate.
88:14And so I just think that you have to just be more consistent offensively where last year it was really driven by
88:20a lack of negative plays overall sacks, interceptions and explosiveness.
88:22Can you just be a little bit more consistent offensively?
88:25And if you can be, does that offset some of those concerns about the turnover differential falling back to earth a little
88:31bit, you not having those fortunate moments late in games.
88:34Like I absolutely think they could be as good of a team as they were last year and maybe with a slightly,
88:40slightly worse record, but we would feel so much better just about the down to down consistency on both sides of the ball.
88:47The offense, I think it's easy to make that case.
88:49Everyone's settling in. We can talk about the left tackle situation, even if it's a slight, if it's a downgrade from Dolman
88:55to Bradbury, they've been pretty effusive about how much they've liked, what they've seen from Garrett Bradbury over the course of this off season.
89:02I feel like that's a situation where even if you're taking a step back, the offense can still function the way that
89:08you want it to, because the three pillars on the offensive line are still so good.
89:13We can talk about offensive line. Health is another overarching concern.
89:16Like they, those guys were healthy last year in a way that Jonah Jackson specifically just hasn't been.
89:21That's something to keep in mind, but if we can just assume average health for those four and they can piece together
89:27the left tackle spot and help that guy over the course of games, the same way they did last year.
89:32And you build an incremental improvement from the quarterback and all the young skill position talent.
89:37I'm fine getting to a place where this could be a top five offense.
89:41Like I probably picked them to be a top five offense.
89:44The defense is where I just think it's so much harder to start building that case because the entire case started with,
89:50okay, the secondary is going to be healthier than it was a year ago.
89:54So it's not where it's August 27th and it's already not like we're wondering who the second safety is going to be
90:00after that's the position you spent the most money on and the most resources on collectively in the entire off season.
90:06And then Kyler Gordon, like what's going to happen at the entire, I think optimistic argument for why the defense would be
90:12better was the idea that you'd have Kyler Gordon the entire season.
90:15You have real jail and Johnson. And now you have two new safeties with range and speed.
90:20Well, how many bricks out of that wall have already even pulled out before we even get to Labor Day weekend?
90:25Too many for me to sleep well. Yeah. You know, I think back to a 49ers game last year and you kind
90:32of wonder like how many bears games this year are going to be like that where the offense was able to score just at will.
90:38I mean, that 49ers defense is obviously decimated, but they couldn't stop Brock Purdy.
90:42And then it just came down to like team, you know, whoever gets the ball last wins.
90:47And they didn't have as many games like that as you would have thought, considering the difference between the two sides of the football.
90:54But now this year, like, well, maybe that's going to be how they have to win.
90:58Yeah. I think two things can be true when you look at the defense this summer, where it's really good that people
91:04are excited, including the bears about their sixth round defensive tackle.
91:07But you'd like to hear about other guys on defense who are, you know, taking jumps and making leaps and taking the ball away at a high rate.
91:15I do think he's battled that injury last week.
91:18I think Tyreek Stevenson has had a really good camp.
91:20He's had a bunch of takeaways contract year for him.
91:23You were kind of hoping that Jervon Dexter was going to have that kind of summer.
91:28Also a contract year. I mean, again, Grady Jarrett's been healthy.
91:31You just, you can't be, how much can you bank on him?
91:34The bears, Ben Johnson's been very effusive in his praise for Montez sweat.
91:37Jalen Johnson's been solid, but you're right. I mean, like the Kobe Bryant injury is just brutal.
91:42It's brutal. There's no way around it. It's, it's brutal.
91:45And he, like, you could just get this sense of how much they loved everything about him, the way he worked, the
91:51way he practiced, the way he talked, the fact that he was on a Superbowl champion team.
91:56We were seeing him make plays in practice before the injury happened.
91:59So it's, yeah, I, and, and also he was supposed to be helping along your first round pick.
92:04And now you have a, now your first round pick is going to be your best safety.
92:09And you still, that's, that's a lot to rely on.
92:12So, yeah, I mean, the defense does not have any more answers other than Jordan Vanderbilt looks good.
92:17Uh, I think the front is just more equipped than it was last year at any point.
92:21And I think that's the argument that you could make is that Booker and Dio never played together the entire season last
92:27year before Booker, Booker was when Booker got back, Oh, dang, Bo was already hurt.
92:32And so your edge room now with those three guys just has more options than it did before.
92:36If you want to play Dio inside a little bit and you have Booker now as that third piece, like your edge room is better.
92:43And I think you can make a serious argument that if Vanderberg is a real player, it's just a contributor.
92:49Immediately your interior group is better too. And so the front should be better than it was last year.
92:54But what's the ceiling, even if that group is deeper and does that ceiling chase you off of the current concerns you
93:00have about the state of the secondary? I think that's a different conversation.
93:04Right. Like in June, you could have sat there and said, Hey, if the defensive line is average, look what we have
93:10with Jalen Johnson, Tyron Stevens, and Kyle Gordon, Kobe Bryant, Dylan Thienemann.
93:13You could, you could have had that now it's Dylan Thienemann, Cam Lewis, and maybe a fourth round rookie starting at slot
93:19and Malik Muhammad, who's listen, a lot of talent, like really intriguing skillset, but a rookie at slot who didn't play there
93:26in college, you're, you know, you're, you're taking a little bit of a leap there.
93:30That's the other part of this is that the Xavier Woods injury quietly becoming like really important because the whole point was,
93:36if you wanted to stick him at safety, you could put Cam Lewis at nickel and now you can't even do that.
93:42Right. Right. That's the thing where I'm, I'm almost wondering if like, if almost like the bears want someone else to win
93:48the safety job so that they could put Cam Lewis at nickel, which is where he was playing before Kobe Bryant got hurt.
93:54And yeah, so now it's like, okay, now we need the defensive line to start to be above average to help this,
94:00you know, this downtrodden secondary and you're in your, and now you need Jalen Johnson to play like an all pro.
94:06You need Tyreek Stevenson to play like somebody who wants to really cash in on this contract here.
94:11Like you need Dylan Thienemann to play like he did at Oregon as a rookie.
94:15And that's just, you're asking a lot of, a lot of, a lot of what ifs, a lot of, like a lot
94:21of very thin outcomes that you're banking on here on that side of the ball.
94:26And look, TJ Edwards had never been hurt before in his career until last year, but he got hurt twice last year.
94:32He started camp late because of another injury. Like he still hasn't been full go and you're kind of thin at that position.
94:38Now that's a position you can be thin at.
94:41It's not like, you know, it's okay. Um, but you know, I'll say this, I'll give you a positive for the defense.
94:47I have been impressed by Devin Bush. I didn't know what to expect from the guy.
94:51And I do think that having number 12 is difficult.
94:54I think, I think he, he would, I think he would look better if his number was like 57, um, just because of his size.
95:01Um, but he, the speed is real, but you watch him track down running backs and tight ends.
95:06I see why Dennis Allen really wanted him as part of this thing.
95:09I also thought DeMarco Jackson played well last year.
95:12If they have to rely on DeMarco Jackson, I don't think that's the thing that's going to make or break this.
95:18I'm much more worried about you digging into your secondary depth so much already.
95:22Again, before we're even into Labor Day weekend, if Cam Lewis, his entire selling point is that he can be somebody that
95:28can plug a hole for you in a pinch.
95:30If you need him to at points over the season, it's not week one.
95:34He is a load bearing player within the defense, which is exactly the situation the bears are walking into.
95:39I guess it's worth asking, do we have any, I'm not even going to ask for clarity.
95:44I'm not going to use that word. Do you have any sense of whether Kyle or Gordon is going to play football at any point this season?
95:51No, no idea. I mean, I like to think it's good that he's there, like he traveled to Cincinnati for the joint practice.
95:58I got to think that's like a positive. Cause you're really, I can't believe that's what we're doing.
96:03Those are the breadcrumbs we're having to pick up at this point.
96:06Yeah. Like you looked on the side, like, Oh, Kyler Gordon's here.
96:09He was healthy enough to get on an airplane.
96:12That's a good thing. But I, I always tell like bears fans or like, you know, radio hosts who asked me about it.
96:18Like, I'm like, if you guys want to speculate that he's not going to play this year there, he's given you no reason not to.
96:25Like, it just like you, you can just let your mind wander because like we just have no idea.
96:31And, and it's unfortunate that we can't get like a, Hey, this is what's going on.
96:35And this is why it's taking a while. It's just terse.
96:38Like, no, no, no update, no information. He's out here.
96:41I think it just speaks to a disconnect between what's going on with him and what's going on with the organization.
96:47And I think no one wants to make it worse.
96:49Right. I think that's really all that's happening. Yeah.
96:52And it's, it's, I mean, it's what's extra unfortunate about it is the last time the blaze bears played a football game.
96:58Kyler Gordon was probably played like the second or third best guy on that defense that night.
97:03You go back and watch the Rams game. He was everywhere.
97:06And you saw how Dennis Allen could use him.
97:08And it's like, Oh yeah. That's why Ryan Poles gave him that contract when he's healthy, put his hair on fire and he's a blitzer.
97:15He's a one defender. He, yeah, you can really use him well.
97:18And, and, and yeah. And like, you just, you have no idea what, what that's going to look like.
97:24Let's go back to the offense. Cause I'm just curious how you think about the left tackle rotating cast of characters right now and what it looks like.
97:31Here's, I'll ask you two things. What do you think it looks like in week one?
97:36And what do you think it looks like in week four?
97:39It could be the exact same thing that happened last year.
97:42It could be Braxton Jones in week one. And then for whatever, you know, like last year and he's talked about it,
97:48he was not playing as well in second halves of games.
97:51And then you've got Theo Benedict who the coaches like a lot for his run blocking.
97:56You bring him in. And then when Ozzy Trapilo is ready to go, then it's Ozzy.
98:00Like it could be a very similar track to last year.
98:03The only difference is this time Ozzy is coming off an injury as opposed to last year.
98:08You were just waiting until he gave the coaches confidence that they could put him in there.
98:12So it could be like a realistic timeline for him to play.
98:16Gosh. I mean, it wasn't realistic for him to practice all summer.
98:19So I don't know. Like, I feel like he's changed the paradigm of any kind of timeline you're talking about because he's already practicing and in pads.
98:27Now he hasn't done any teamwork, you know, as of August 27th.
98:30You know, maybe that changes in a couple hours at joint practice.
98:33I don't know. But I mean, because this has been such a ridiculous recovery, could he be ready in the first month, second month?
98:40Like, I mean, I can't say no. I got this.
98:43I mean, I remember Patella attendant. That's a year.
98:45Usually a year plus used to be into the second season that you start regaining like actual quality of play.
98:51And I guess that's the question. Like, just because he's out there, it doesn't mean that he's their best, their best option.
98:57Like, is he going to be ready to play at a certain, at a level that makes you comfortable about putting him out there?
99:03Even if he's back practicing, that's an impossible question to answer.
99:06I just, I wonder if how much they see him as like the actual firm answer to the position at some point this year.
99:13Yeah. And I mean, I think that like he played well last year, but he was still the fifth best offensive lineman.
99:19You and I had this exact conversation last summer, which I've referred to a lot, which is it's okay to be the fifth best.
99:26Like, you know, that's why this isn't like the Jamarcus Webb days of Chicago bears, where you're so concerned about left tackle,
99:32because you don't have a whole lot of other great answers along the offensive line.
99:36So it heightens the left tackle problem. Now that guy is playing next to Joe Tooney and you do, you do have Cole commit.
99:43Who's a very solid veteran to, to help out.
99:45You got Loveland. So you have other answers. I just, the only curiosity I have is like, I was a little surprised.
99:51The bears never put Theo Bennett at left tackle until like a week ago.
99:55When they were like, realized like, Oh, we have to, because these other guys just aren't doing it for us.
100:01I mean, that's probably the reason, right? Is it that they were really banking on the fact that some combination of Braxton
100:07or Jed Wills would get them there. And maybe they were feeling a little bit less confident about that after seeing it for a month.
100:14Right. And I, so yeah, so I do get it.
100:17And then they put Theo there and it's, it's not, it's fine.
100:20But like, I just, and here, here's the, here's the dream scenario for the bears.
100:24Braxton Jones starts 17 games for you and is solid.
100:27And just, just, just what Braxton Jones was in 2022, 2023, where he's, I like to call him a Charles Leno light.
100:33Like you just, you know what you're getting from him.
100:36Yeah. He's not going to be an all pro, but he's fine.
100:39And then he goes and gets a big contract somewhere.
100:42You got a cop pick and Ozzy Trapilo is ready to go at the start of next season.
100:47Like that to me would be the ideal situation.
100:49But I think Braxton's little, whatever that injury was, set him back a week.
100:53And I'm, I'm very curious to see how he looks in this final week, because if he can gain that confidence back,
100:59maybe everybody feels better about him being out there for week one.
101:03But if Ozzy's just sitting there ready to go, you know, that's, that's somebody that this, obviously this coaching staff really likes him.
101:09I don't know more granular level. I see this being a team that plays probably more 12 personnel than any team in
101:15the league, just based on who their best 11 are and the ways that you can use level.
101:20And I assume we're going to see a decent amount of Roush because that to me feels like a more dangerous group
101:26than even your 11 is going to be. If Khalif Raymond or even today Walker is that third receiver.
101:31So like that stuff to me, like I think already kind of tracks.
101:35Like I just assume that's how they're going to play.
101:38Is there anything about that that you think is wrong or a misguided assumption?
101:42No, no. I mean, we, we got the, like the brief glimpse of Roush and Cincinnati at a really nice catch and run.
101:48I mean, the like smart as all get out can block.
101:51Like this is what Ben Johnson wants to do.
101:54He, he's like the, you saw what the Rams did to the best defense in football, the Superbowl champion, Seattle Seahawks.
101:59And, and you're, you're going to start seeing this now.
102:02It's just one trend. We'll see what the next trend is in five years.
102:06So this is what Ben Johnson's always wanted to do.
102:09He was a tight ends coach. So I liked it.
102:12And also, I know this wasn't a part of your question, but I do want to throw a shout out or a mention of Deandre Swift.
102:19It is very hard to evaluate running backs in most training camps.
102:22Ben Johnson's training camp makes it a little bit easier because of how physical it is.
102:26Swift just looks really good. He has had some really impressive runs that make you think, you know, you almost forget he's
102:33in a contract year because of his position. You don't think about like, Oh, what are they going to, what are they gonna do about Deandre Swift?
102:40Like, well, it's a running back. It doesn't matter, but he's looked very strong this summer.
102:44And then Manongai, what's the timeline on that? Do you have any sense?
102:48Yeah, that was a, that came out as kind of week to week.
102:52So, you know, my guess would be, he'd be ready for the start of the regular season is ideally.
102:57And there's a drop off there too. Like you need him to be your number two.
103:01Absolutely. They don't have a number three. I mean, who would it even be at this point?
103:06I mean, it's, it's year four of Roshan Johnson.
103:09I think everybody in, and they've, listen, Roshan's gotten more carries his preseason than anything he's ever gotten.
103:14He's finally staying healthy. He, Savan Ahmed has, has had the better runs in, in camp and in the preseason, but Roshan Johnson's your dynamite special teams guy.
103:21And Ahmed hasn't really done that very much in his career.
103:24So, you know, do they keep four? Cause Manongai, if Manongai is not fully healthy, I don't know.
103:29But yeah, I mean, this is Swift and Manongai are your two running backs.
103:33Like there's, there shouldn't necessarily be a third guy, ideally taking too many carries.
103:37Anything else we should know from somebody who's been there every day?
103:40That the Swift thing is a great example. Anything else that just like, all right, this is going to be one of
103:47the lasting images I have of 2026 Bears trading camp that a national audience should know more about.
103:52Have I not mentioned Jordan Vandenberg? I think we, we kind of alluded to that, but I think that's probably it.
103:57Right. I mean, he's yeah. I mean, like someone complained to me about writing about him, like he's earned it.
104:03He's, he is legitimately flashed. I'll, I'll note one more thing about, you know, every Bears practice ends with a specific situation.
104:09You know, they'll throw something on the clock, you know, a minute, 12 seconds, balls at the 32, you've got one time out.
104:15And those were just a nightmare last year, last summer.
104:18Like it was for the offense for the most part.
104:21And seeing the different ways, these guys, and, and, you know, it pays to have the experience last year and all those fourth quarter games.
104:28And I do think, you know, to back to the start of our conversation about the quarterback, like you're seeing him operate
104:34those at a much higher clip they did last summer.
104:37And I'm sure again, it probably helps that he did it in the regular season and won games that way.
104:42But yeah, like that's like a specific part of practice where I think the Bears have looked a lot better than they have in past years.
104:49We could do this for three hours. I could, I could ask you about every single player on the roster.
104:55Cause I probably have questions about every single one.
104:57We won't do that. Kevin Fishbane. Always appreciate the time, sir.
105:00Feels fitting that we wrapped up this entire series with the Chicago Bears.
105:04Cause that's what I'll probably be thinking most about over the two weeks between now and the start of the regular season.
105:10We'll talk to you soon, bud. All right. Take care.
105:13All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Nick.
105:17Thank you to Jesse. Thank you to Matt. Thank you to Kevin.
105:20Love doing these every single year, 20 overall beat writer conversations with people that are there every single day, watching practice that
105:26combined with the division previews that we're doing. Feel like I've got a lot of just deep dives on every single one of these teams.
105:33So appreciate you guys listening to these. We always get good feedback about them.
105:37And I do think that here at the athletic, it is something we are in uniquely positioned to do.
105:42So one of my favorite things we get to do every single summer, we will do these as long as they let
105:48me keep traveling to training camps every year. So appreciate everyone who tuned into these over the last month or so.
105:54That's all we got. We will talk to you on Monday.