0:00Breaking down a rest of season draft and a little talk about fictional or potential NFL traits.
0:00That's what we're talking about today on The Long View Podcast.
0:00I'm Ben Gretch. You can find the Stealing Signals newsletter at BenGretch.Substack.com.
0:00With me as always is Jacob Sanderson. You can find the Thinking About Thinking newsletter at Jacob Sanderson.Substack.com.
0:00And Jacob, last night we were fortunate enough to be asked to join Jacob Sanderson.
0:00Ryan Heath over at, I guess, Fantasy Football Today, Beyond the Box Score, an offshoot of one of the CBS podcasts to do a rest of season draft.
0:00Two really sharp guys. You podcast with Ryan over at Fantasy Points with your Dynasty Points podcast.
0:00And I think you guys do multiple podcasts over there.
0:00You have a Rookie Report, all these things. Jacob does incredible work over at CBS, writes their newsletter.
0:00Two sharp guys. We had a blast doing it with them.
0:00We went for over two hours. We did, uh, how many rounds did we end up getting through?
0:00Eight rounds? Eight rounds. Eight rounds. And we did a rest of season draft.
0:00And so definitely go listen to that whole thing where we talked through every pick for eight rounds.
0:00You and I are going to leverage that as our Long View topic today.
0:00To discuss a bunch of the, like, what we're always trying to do is, like, discuss player value in relation to other players.
0:00It's obviously, like, being able to get together with other sharp analysts and do an eight-round rest of season draft would be
0:00something that would be good content and good, um, a good challenge for us to relate player value amongst, you know, other players and debate those things.
0:00If we could do that every single week. We want to leverage it here.
0:00Um, not to, you know, step on the toes of that great content.
0:00Definitely view all that. There's plenty of room for both.
0:00We're going to be, um, talking about some key spots and some key players.
0:00And it's, it's a great opportunity for the Long View stuff.
0:00But one of the, the, the short view thing that you had floated to me or as a potential Long View topic
0:00this week was, Hey, the trade deadline's going up.
0:00Maybe we would do like a draft or go through all 32 teams and suggest a trade for all 32 teams.
0:00And I'm like, look, dude, I don't play Madden a lot.
0:00I don't think about like trade value a lot during the season.
0:00So I, I, I, I was the one who shot down this really fun idea, but I thought it was a great idea for the short view.
0:00So we decided to do that for the short view.
0:00You've compiled a couple potential trades here, like realistic landing spots, realistic deals that could happen.
0:00Pretty fun. Uh, or you wrote not necessarily. Well, they're realistic ish.
0:00They're like, they could happen. I don't think it's, I, some of them, I don't think are necessarily the most likely landing spot.
0:00I kind of just went with the ones that I would like to see the most.
0:00I love it. Yeah. And I think would be, um, you know, I didn't, I didn't make anything like completely nuts or
0:00like implausible, but I kind of, I went more in the direction of what I want to happen and less in the
0:00direction of like, if I was making a bet on where these players would be traded, that it would definitely be my number one pick.
0:00Uh, maybe I'll spin off the all 32 teams idea into an article.
0:00We'll see. I have, I have alternate paths of content creation.
0:00So, but let's, let's rip these. I'll, I'll give them to you.
0:00You let me know, I guess, like which team you think says no.
0:00Um, you know, if, if Ben Gretsch was the GM, um, of either of those respective teams, uh, so you've just been hired.
0:00We've been hired now by like eight teams. We're going to go through four deals.
0:00So congrats. And the best part about this, the biggest reason I, I was like, Oh, my mildly skeptical about your idea
0:00was, it's like, I haven't done any research on contracts or anything like that.
0:00So it's my, me being the GM, I'm a hired GM who also doesn't understand contracts.
0:00It's going to be great. Well, you're going to be like in, in draft day when Kevin Costner makes the trade for the number one pick.
0:00And then he walks into the room. He's like, Hey guys, we just moved up to number one.
0:00And then he like goes to, is it Jennifer Garner?
0:00Who's the capologist that he's also dating. And it's like, do we have the salary cap space for that?
0:00And she's like, yeah, we can make it work.
0:00It's like, good thing you asked that after you made the trade, Kevin Costner.
0:00I, uh, never watched that farce of a movie.
0:00You've never watched draft day. Yeah. Intentionally. Cause I care about myself.
0:00Yeah. I'm you, you have to be the only person that like works in football.
0:00I've met. I've not watched draft day. Really? People, people talk about it every year around the draft.
0:00They're like, Oh, it's time for the annual rewatch.
0:00Then I see other people are like, I tried to watch this finally.
0:00And it was terrible. It was so unrealistic. I had no idea, like no reason to have ever watched it.
0:00And I was like, Hey, that's why I never watched it.
0:00Because don't you find that like the topics that you're too close to, it's like hard to see a fictionalized version of it.
0:00And sometimes, I mean, it's the, it's one of the worst movies ever watched, but I've also watched it six times.
0:00Like I, I find that like, why? Because I find it hilarious how bad it is.
0:00And it's entertaining. So you and I are different in that way.
0:00I find things like that, not frustrating, but not entertaining.
0:00I want to turn them off. And I'm like, this is so terrible.
0:00And, but I get, I get pot committed. I'm like, throw it through it.
0:00You pancake eating mother effort. Like, come on. There's so many, uh, like TV shows that I've started watching and not really realized how bad they are.
0:00And I, I finished watching them. Cause I'm like, I want to know what happens, whatever.
0:00And then I get done and I think back on it.
0:00I'm like, man, that was such a waste of my time.
0:00Like we get our choice of things that we get entertainment, but I can go outside and touch grass.
0:00I can do, like, if I'm going to watch a movie, I want it to entertain me.
0:00I mean, it's, it's like specifically I watched draft day at like 11 PM the night before the draft.
0:00So there's a generational thing here too, because you're younger than me.
0:00It came out when you had, I think my kids were already born.
0:00I had less time by the time it came out where I was at in my life.
0:00It's like, I'm not going to make time for this.
0:00Like you watching it late at night is a different conversation.
0:00I probably would have watched it if I was in college when it came out.
0:00Let's put it that way. All right. Well, our short view topic is not going to be a rewatchables episode on draft day.
0:00Certainly not. Cause I haven't seen it. I would not be a good co-host for that.
0:00All right. Anyways. Okay. First one. I mean, Jonathan Taylor is the, I made these all skill player trades.
0:00I didn't want to like throw out, you know, defensive linemen and stuff at you.
0:00So they're all fantasy eligible. I mean, I think if we were doing the betting odds, the most likely Jonathan Taylor landing spot is the Minnesota Vikings.
0:00If he gets traded, which I'm still a little skeptical.
0:00That happens. There is actually betting odds out there.
0:00Somebody posted the Cal sheet. There's betting odds for everything these days.
0:00Right. Yeah. The odds on Cal sheet, which feels wrong to me.
0:00What are the Vikings as the favorites? Yes. Over the cold is right.
0:00No, no, no. Including the cold. Oh, well, that's incorrect.
0:00That's what I thought too. Staying with the Colts was only 33%.
0:00Going to the Vikings was up into the, like the forties.
0:00And then whoever else was next was lower than the Colts.
0:00And I was like, that's. Well, I'll agree that if he's traded, I think the most likely is the Vikings.
0:00I disagree that he's more likely to be a Viking than a cult.
0:00I mean, even if you think he's over 50% to get traded, like I think that the Colts have to still be the plurality.
0:00Like there's, he could get traded to not the Vikings, you know?
0:00Anyway. Yeah. And this is not, this is not prediction market betting advice, but that was my exact take as well.
0:00Why? I think it's not something that I think is that likely to happen, but I think it should happen.
0:00I want him to go to the New England Patriots and I've, I've as, as GM of the Patriots, I've offered my 27 second.
0:00And then they also have two six. So I've offered one of their six, their additional six they got in the MAPU trade.
0:00I'm tired of watching Travion Henderson. They're trying to make Corey Kiner happen.
0:00Ramondre Stevenson is like a good third down back who I think is being used in a role that's a little bit beyond his station.
0:00They tried to add explosive element with AJ Brown.
0:00I hope that he can get back to what they would have hoped him to be coming off the high ankle sprain.
0:00But to me, this is a team with one of the best quarterbacks in the league.
0:00It's a team that has a potentially like capable passing game with that.
0:00But I just don't think the teams are going to be afraid of their running game at all.
0:00I think that's going to be a big problem for them going into the playoffs.
0:00I think Jonathan Taylor would make a huge impact on that roster and would open up the deep passing game a lot more for Drake May.
0:00He was one of the best deep throwers in the league.
0:00That would be the team. If I could just choose one that I would love to see go all in on him.
0:01And that that's my, that's my proposed trade. But what do you think if you were in charge of the Patriots or
0:01in charge of the Colts, what you would do on this deal?
0:01I think your description of his impact to the Patriots offense with Drake May is a, you know, a very good deep
0:01passer to have a legitimate difference making runner a little bit like the Ken Walker thing.
0:01I mean, that's sort of the take with Taylor, wherever he could go, that he could have an impact like Ken Walker
0:01has with the chiefs, which opened up the deep passing when, you know, Patrick Mahomes had deep receivers that could throw to,
0:01which was namely mostly just Taequann Thornton, who's now injured.
0:01But having said that, my, my guess. So I think the 2027 two plus a six is a Colts fans compensation for what we're starting.
0:01That's a little late. That's a little light compared to like what the insiders are reporting is on the table.
0:01Really? It's on the table. Like, I mean, I've heard that they want to Jonathan Jones.
0:01Well, no, the reporting is that they want a one.
0:01I don't think they're going to get a one.
0:01Jonathan Jones is saying a second would be available if they're willing to trade him.
0:01Okay. And I think, I mean, I think that's fine, but I still think to answer your question, if I'm the Patriots
0:01GM, I'm saying no to this because they have already invested a first round pick a year ago in Travion Henderson.
0:01And I just think it's a lot to invest in the running back position the next, the next season.
0:01But I think he's worth it too. I do think he's worth it too.
0:01I just think for the Patriots, they have like, they're in a position where they have Ramondre Stevenson.
0:01I guess again, he's been paid, right? Stevenson's under contract.
0:01Stevenson's under contract. He's super cuttable after the year.
0:01I mean, I don't imagine they're going to cut him barring like a trade like this, but it's, they're not that committed to him.
0:01He's, I don't know that he's super cuttable after.
0:01Oh, oh, oh. I'm looking at the wrong year.
0:01He is. Yes. Sorry. I was looking at after 2026.
0:01No, or sorry. I was looking at 2026 off season.
0:01This is, yeah, I'm wrong. Anyway, he is cut.
0:01Yeah. He'd be, he'd be, yeah, he would have, it would be 3.5 dead cap, 6 million in savings.
0:01If they caught him after this year. Now, I mean, if they didn't post Jonathan Taylor or sign someone or whatever, like,
0:01I think they will keep him because he's a starting running back, but if they did it, theoretically, if they did this
0:01move, not be hard to get out of Stevenson.
0:01And if they, if they did it as a post June one, his base salary climbs every year of his contract.
0:01It continues to climb. They could do it as a post June one.
0:01They'd only lose 1.6 million. It'd save 8 million next year.
0:01I mean, they probably, they probably, they might do that.
0:01We're thinking at least when they signed him, they would, they would have Travion Henderson to a degree that they could, they would be getting out of this.
0:01I'm sure when they made the Henderson pick, that was what they envisioned.
0:01And the tweet I was referencing, by the way, is from Jonathan Jones is the insider for the athletic former CBS.
0:01He wrote Colts running back. Jonathan Taylor would net indeed the biggest return, which NFL folks believe would be a two plus
0:01Taylor would be the hardest for the team to part with a two plus.
0:01Sorry. Say that again. Our listeners heard it, but I was, he said, he said, um, I, I, I already, I already
0:01clicked away from it, but I'll read out the, no, I'll have it back.
0:01That's my fault. That's great radio. So Taylor Colts running back.
0:01Jonathan Taylor would net indeed the biggest return. This he tweeted basically right after the Buckner trade, um, said would not any,
0:01the biggest return, which NFL folks believe would be a two plus, but Taylor would be the hardest for the team to part with.
0:01Okay. Yeah. That's a little bit NFL folks. That's a little different than the way you framed it, which was, it would
0:01be available that, that to me sounds like, you know, he knows that there's a team that's already made the offer NFL folks.
0:01I would just be pretty surprised if the Colts couldn't, I mean, I don't know if it's me to pay.
0:01I would be surprised if the Vikings haven't offered a two for the, for Jonathan Taylor.
0:01Yeah. Perhaps they have. Um, anyway, I'm not, uh, yeah.
0:01And I think he's probably worth it to you.
0:01I'm fine with it, but, um, to, to the Patriots specifically who invested a first round pick in the running back position last year, it's, I don't know.
0:01I mean, maybe that's not the right way to think about it, but.
0:01Oh yeah. I guess a high second. I was thinking of.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. But is he in their plans? Like, do they, do you think?
0:01Probably not. It's sunk cost. Do you think that they still envision him as like a big part of their plans?
0:01Probably not. It's probably a sunk cost fallacy at this point.
0:01He's not worth that. They couldn't trade him for a two at this moment.
0:01You know, like those, those types of, um, no, there's a little bit of a logical fallacy here, but again, I'm not,
0:01um, I only play an actor on, I only play a GM on TV like Kevin Costner.
0:01I don't actually, uh, know what I'm doing, but I would dance to answer your, uh, framing of, of the short view.
0:01I would say that the Patriots would say no to this, but I don't think they are saying no.
0:01I agree. The Patriots are, I agree with that.
0:01I agree. The Patriots are saying no. I think that they made their move for AJ Brown.
0:01I think there, I think that was the other thing I was thinking.
0:01And then they, they traded booty for like, Oh, like less draft capital than I thought.
0:01Like their trade capital has been negative lately. Patriots fans on my, in my social feeds have been kind of annoyed about
0:01some of the ways they've navigated things. I think it would not look good.
0:01Well, people think booties something he's not. I know that's fair, but a two and a two and a six for a running back right now.
0:01It's not, it's not even to say that it's not right.
0:01Cause maybe I think it is right, but I do think it would make Patriots fans mad is basically what I'm getting at.
0:01Really? Interesting. I think it would be, I think Patriots fans are mad at watching their running backs.
0:01Okay. Maybe that's right. We'll see. I agree that they would say no, but I don't think they should say no.
0:01And I think they, I think they should be in on this.
0:01We'll get, we'll get back to a running back trade at the end.
0:01A wide receiver trade. We'll stay with the Colts for now.
0:01Josh Downs. I mean, this one is to me, the one that I think is actually pretty likely to happen.
0:01And that's Josh Downs to the Kansas city chiefs.
0:01Um, I think I put the compensation at 20, 27, fourth.
0:01I think Josh Downs, it might even be a fifth.
0:01He certainly did his best to reduce the compensation for a trade that was going to happen anyways, by demanding a trade
0:01that they were already going to give him. Um, and, uh, so that's going to hurt on the compensation side.
0:01I'll put a fourth, probably optimistic, but, uh, I, I think that the chiefs would make a ton of sense.
0:01You're you've just been hired by the Kansas city chiefs.
0:01Uh, you can't go back to the 2020 draft, uh, but you can choose to accept or not accept Josh Downs on your team for 20, 27, fourth.
0:01What do you do? Can't go back to the 2020 draft for, is it, was that a Jonathan Taylor?
0:01That's that's the Clyde Edwards. Okay. Yeah. Hilarious. Um, Clyde Edwards.
0:01No, if, if you're the, if you're the chiefs, you're accepting that.
0:01No question. Um, this is one where I'm like, I feel like the, there are other teams that should be willing to
0:01get in on this or potentially offer. Maybe not.
0:01I don't know. Getting up to a third is, is tricky, but, uh, yeah, I think you trade a fourth for downs for sure.
0:01I, I mean, I think he should be worth a third, but I just, the thing with downs is he, he won't
0:01be a fit for every team because like, like for instance, San Francisco, and I think the Rams, although there's been some
0:01reporting to the Rams might be interested. So, so I, I, I've kind of reversed my stance on that, but like San
0:01Francisco, especially is a team that typically they want their F wide receiver to be attached to the formation a lot.
0:01They want to play a bunch of condensed splits.
0:01They want blocking out of that position. Like that's why they loved dribbling for that F role.
0:01They previously had Jennings in that F role. Like, I don't, I don't know that there's a lot of those teams that
0:01like are the more condensed split offenses. Um, I don't know that they want like a five, 970 pound slot receiver.
0:01So I think that he is going to be a little bit team specific.
0:01And then so, but teams that have a need.
0:01Yeah. My issue with the chiefs is all of their dudes are too small and have been like, that's been their issue for years.
0:01They've needed to just get a, a decent size wide receiver.
0:01Like that goes back to size is their problem.
0:01I think it's like man coverage of beating is that their biggest issue.
0:01Yeah. And downs can do that. And none, and none of the rest of their guy, like they need a guy who
0:01on third and five, if a team comes out and plays man coverage can beat man coverage.
0:01And I mean, even in a reduced role last year, like that was, that was downs role on the team.
0:01Basically it was, he was like a third and five specialist.
0:01Um, and I mean, there was the hope he would extend beyond that this year.
0:01And obviously that didn't work out. Um, that would bring something to the chiefs that they still, that they don't have you.
0:01So you, I, I can see our show sheet here.
0:01You have another wide receiver trader we're going to get to, and it's to the Rams.
0:01And I, I talked about this on the CBS pod we did last night where I, the, the downs fit for me
0:01that I like is to the Rams. And if, I mean, the Rams have been willing to trade for veterans a ton.
0:01So I, I, it's like, when we go into the next one, it's intriguing to see what you're looking at there.
0:01But, um, the Rams giving up a fourth for downs makes a ton of sense to me too, to fill the Adams role, to be the man beater.
0:01And especially like in the red zone, um, not that Puka can't win against man and not that they don't have a
0:01lot of ways to incorporate the tight ends and stuff.
0:01And they've still been red zone efficient. I mean, they were last week, Davis Allen's catching all these TDs, but like a
0:01lot of the stuff that Devante Adams was doing.
0:01I mean, maybe they don't need to replace that.
0:01I don't know. And maybe I just said it like they, they already, they can go to 13 personnel and they can
0:01do the different things and they don't need Josh downs.
0:01But downs as a Devante Adams replacement makes sense in my head more even than because there's limitations to downs that, but
0:01maybe, maybe having downs alongside other limited players in like where she rice and Xavier worthy.
0:01When you go to 11 opens things up to some degree, maybe Xavier worthy can suddenly start catching some passes.
0:01The issue is Xavier worthy catching passes is when the balls hit him in the hand.
0:01He doesn't catch the football. So that's a challenging element of the wider receiver position.
0:01Yeah. I mean, the chiefs, like, I mean, I don't know if there is like, I don't have them on this list.
0:01So we can just talk about them. Like in a world where like Garrett Wilson or Nico Collins was available, like that
0:01would obviously solve everything for the chiefs, you know?
0:01And if those teams were willing to make them available, I think the chief should offer a lot, like to find a way to go make that happen.
0:01I don't even know how the cap would work, like whatever.
0:01Maybe that's impossible. But I think like that would be a complete game changer.
0:01In the world of guys who are more likely to be moved, you know, there are everybody has some level of limitation, I think.
0:01But I guess like to me, the number one problem the chiefs have is like, especially in a playoff scenario, especially on
0:01third downs, like they're all of their top three pass catchers share this like same crippling weakness that it just seems like
0:01the way to defend their passing game is pretty easy.
0:01Like you just get up there and you press the shit out of them and you play man in these third down situations.
0:01And what are they going to do about it?
0:01And I just think having one guy who can separate downs beat press.
0:01Well, he's never going to get pressed because you're going to have them in stacks.
0:01You're going to have them on the slot. Like, no, if he's like, he's not even your X receiver.
0:01No, but you can put them in the slot or you can put them in stacks and he can at least beat man.
0:01And then you can't press them. So you like you put out like whoever rice or whatever to eat the press.
0:01Why aren't they doing that with like Xavier worthy?
0:01But like, well, Xavier worthy. It's not just a press issue.
0:01Like Xavier worthy just struggles versus man coverage in general, like even off man coverage.
0:01Okay. And I mean, it's just I think just like, I mean, I'm not like the expert on this, but I at
0:01all, I just like the way that they use downs last year, the way that they've used him in years that he's
0:01been more productive in 2024 and 2025 seems like something.
0:01The chiefs would really need, which is like a guy that can run like those choice routes.
0:01Yeah. I mean, I know down. Downs is good.
0:01The way I think the downs is like you want him as a player alongside other like bigger receivers.
0:01So when you play against teams that do press a lot that have bigger, more physical corners, you can't just get bodied across the board.
0:01Like a lot of times there's like there's teams that can do this, not just like with one corner, but across the
0:01that's how they play across the way. Yeah. And it's like, so then when you had like downs working off Michael Pittman
0:01or whatever, it's like, okay, you have different different styles for different matchups.
0:01Or whatever. And anyway, to me, it's like when you're saying that the chiefs already have this issue of like getting bodied
0:01all over again, a five, nine, 175 pound wide receiver answering that problem.
0:01Like I want, I always wanted them to get T Higgins when he seemed available.
0:01It's like, yeah, go give me T Higgins. Like he'll go win.
0:01Like, you know, yeah, that would be better. That's what I talk about size.
0:01I was like, go get me George Pickens. Go get me somebody that can, you know.
0:01All right. So you'd swap these. Cause I mean, let's just say it's, I have Brian Thomas going to the Rams.
0:01You'd swap them. Do you want Brian Thomas on the chiefs?
0:01I think Brian Thomas to the chiefs is pretty sick.
0:01I hadn't thought of that side of it, but I think I, yeah, I liked downs to the Rams, but I don't know that.
0:01The reason I put it this way is because I don't think the Jaguars are going to trade Brian Thomas in the AFC.
0:01Cause they're trying to win a super bowl this year.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. The, uh, so Brian Thomas compensation you have as a 20, 28, three and a 20, 27, four.
0:01Again, this is like, it's interesting stuff. I have a 27, three.
0:01So that's why I did it that way. Yeah.
0:01This is interesting stuff. I love talking about it with you.
0:01I think it's, it's really fun. Hypotheticals. I'm not the kind of stuff that I have like really strong opinions on, but
0:01this to me is like, it feels light for Brian Thomas.
0:01I feel like that's why they haven't moved him yet is they want more than this.
0:01Are they going to settle for a 20, 28, three and a 20, 27, four, or do they just not move him at that point?
0:01Cause it seems like they still think they're getting like a one.
0:01I think like if they trade him, they're getting handed on shoulder.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think they get three and a four.
0:01I mean like in like the, in the like Fitzgerald Spielberger stuff or whatever, like I think a three and a four
0:01would equate to like a pretty early two. Okay.
0:01I wondered if it did. I didn't know it was an early two.
0:01Cause the, I know that the three and the five equates to a mid two, cause that's what the Colts just got for Nelson.
0:01So I haven't like punched in a three and a four, but I would think that would come out to an early
0:01two probably, or at least a mid two. And that's, I guess that, that does make sense.
0:01It seems right away to my brain, like an early two seems wrong because like, I mean, look at like the receivers
0:01that go in the top half of, of round two.
0:01And then go in round three, if you go back and look over the years, like round three guys often just don't even play.
0:01And like early round two guys end up a lot of times being like studs.
0:01That's fair to me. Early round two is like the same as late round one.
0:01You get like the top 20 is round one.
0:01And then the twenties in round one and the first 10 picks of round two was like a block in my mind
0:01of like still really good draft capital. But obviously, I mean, being a first round pick matters more and there's still a
0:01delineation there, but early round two picks are, are, are potentially still superstars.
0:01Top 40 picks. I mean, and then around three, but around three plus a four teams hit on these guys.
0:01And a lot of them become superstars too. So again, not, not something that I spend enough time with.
0:01I think it's a interesting conversation, but so I, the Rams don't have the compensation to do it too is why you did.
0:01Well, they could do it too. They had their two this year.
0:01I guess the reason why I would be surprised if they did the two this year is they don't have a one or a three.
0:01So then they would be down a one and a two and a three.
0:01I mean, that's not the Jaguars problem. They could, they'd say tough break for you guys.
0:01You know, we're on the next team. And that's more or less been the Rams MO for, for like years.
0:01They've done that before. And if you look at the Rams, they do look like a team.
0:01I mean, they're supposed to be all in, right?
0:01Like is Aaron Donald going to play in 2027 is, is Matt.
0:01I mean, how much longer is Matthew Stafford going to play?
0:01Like at a certain point, they probably want draft capital, but they already got criticized for using a first round pick on
0:01Ty Simpson and thinking about the next iteration of this team.
0:01And anyway, why not just go all in? Yeah.
0:01I think, I think BTJ would make sense. I mean, he makes sense for a lot of teams.
0:01He's like, I mean, he's an interesting player in that.
0:01Like compared to. Like Josh Downs to me, it's like very easy to think of like kind of what he would bring
0:01a team, how he could help, where he'd be a fit, where he wouldn't like BTJ.
0:01It's like so hard to know what he is, right?
0:02Like he, he looked like a superstar in year one.
0:02And he's been like, honestly, mostly a negative player for the last year and a half.
0:02So it's like, what are you getting? You know, it's more of like a.
0:02You go back to the prospect profile and he had the 17 touchdowns in the final season working off neighbors.
0:02He didn't have a huge target sprout run rate, which was part of my concern, but he had a really strong yards per target.
0:02And we saw some of that in year one part of why he hit so big late in year one is he
0:02got a lot more volume than I think. I mean, everyone got hurt, even like they still had Evan Ingram and he
0:02was hurt and Christian Kirk was hurt and every single other passing weapon that they wanted Gabe Davis to be a thing that year.
0:02And he got hurt. Every single player was hurt.
0:02And you got Brian Thomas getting like wide receiver screens from Mac Jones.
0:02And then he's got ball and hand ability. He does have per target efficiency.
0:02I think that's what you're getting is an outside wide receiver.
0:02Who's a good player of the ball in the air.
0:02If you can throw it to the boundary and throw it downfield, I think he can clearly win on deep shots, which
0:02is a huge asset in the modern NFL. It's the reason Alec Pierce got so much money.
0:02It's the reason Cardinal Tate went top five, even though I mean, Cardinal Tate's going to be good.
0:02But like top five capital is a lot for a profile that, in my opinion, had some limitations.
0:02He's looked better than I thought he would. But I still think, you know, some some some ceiling issues potentially there for
0:02fantasy because of the offense and all that. But I think a lot of the capital on those guys was this element
0:02of like, hey, we need the field stretchers when defenses are rolling safeties over the top.
0:02The guys that can win, that can win in double coverage deep, that can win contested catches deep are so important to scheme.
0:02Brian Thomas should be able to be that. I think that's still very valuable.
0:02And I think he's still very valuable. The problem, he's not a very good fit for Trevor Lawrence because Trevor Lawrence needs to be throwing between the numbers.
0:02He can't throw outside the number like he literally is.
0:02He was awful in that Denver game outside the numbers.
0:02And I don't know what the issue is with Brian Thomas.
0:02That was the last game Thomas was really like involved and got like a lot of volume or at least as far as I can remember.
0:02He had a couple of plays at the catch point in that game.
0:02Yeah, he had a couple rough plays at the catch point, but he also had a couple plays where he won outside
0:02the numbers and Lawrence threw some bad balls. There was one that was a vertical route and he had room to fade toward the sideline.
0:02He was like just outside the numbers and it was Riley Moss running on the interior.
0:02And Lawrence's throw missed short and on the inside of Riley Moss when he had all this room to miss back toward
0:02the sideline to fade Thomas out of bounds. And Thomas goes and makes that play.
0:02Instead, he had to try to jump over top of Riley Moss.
0:02It's like get the ball to the perimeter. Like what are you doing here?
0:02Anyway, Trevor Lawrence is, you know, not under under the microscope here.
0:02But I do think a little bit of the fit stuff or a little bit of like us not knowing what Brian Thomas is, is the fit stuff.
0:02And the fact that like when he played with Jane Daniels in college, he was a stud on the perimeter downfield outside.
0:02I do think he's still a good wide receiver and provide something even if he is inefficient at times will provide something.
0:02And a lot of it's been effort with the Jags or at least that appears to be the case.
0:02You get him in the Rams. I think the Rams part of the reason I was out on Devonta Adams this year
0:02and I was wrong was that they gave him a ton of air yards last year and he had under 800 total yards.
0:02He had all the touchdowns. He was good in the red zone, but a lot of what they wanted to do with Adams last year was air yards.
0:02Think he had over 1500 air yards last year, which is like almost 100 air yards per game on average, which is a ton.
0:02It's a top 10 number. I don't have the exact details, but it was one of the biggest numbers in the league last year.
0:02Devonta Adams air yards. And he again, he had 800 fewer than 800 total receiving yards.
0:02He was not converting any of those plays vertically hilariously in the first month of this season.
0:02He's suddenly making all these downfield plays again. And I'm like, okay, Devonta Adams, turn the clock back.
0:02He's a superstar. Amazing. But that's, I think what they wanted from Adams 2025 and why they talked early in 2026 about trading him away.
0:02And publicly that became known because they had enough respect for Adams to tell him.
0:02And then obviously his agent knows and his agent leaks it to the reporters and everyone finds out that the Rams are shopping Devonta Adams.
0:02He's hurt now. If you want to replace Devonta Adams, I talked about replacing it in the red zone and with the man beating stuff.
0:02The other way to replace him would be that area and stuff.
0:02They never actually got out of him, which is what you're describing, which was what Brian Thomas would.
0:02I think it is a good fit from that perspective is what I'm getting at.
0:02I see what you're seeing. And when you're saying, I don't know what he is, I guess that's why I'm taking so long to explain this.
0:02I'm like, well, I think he's what they wanted Adams to be last year.
0:02Yeah. In a lot of ways. I know what he is archetype wise.
0:02And that's exactly what I was going for. It was like the way that they used Adams last year, that combination of
0:02red zone and downfield, getting some single coverage opportunities because of Puka, because of all the tight ends, the run game, all that stuff.
0:02Like, I think that the fit is really positive if he's able to play at a high level.
0:02Like, in terms of what, I don't know what he is.
0:02It's like, I don't know how, I just like, don't really know like the caliber of player he is within that archetype.
0:02Like, is he, is he elite? Is he like inconsistent?
0:02Is he like bad now? Like it's, it's hard to say with much certainty, but he's got to be better than scenario is like very tantalizing.
0:02And I think it would be a very, very good fit.
0:02So the, he's gets lumped with Marvin Harrison a lot.
0:02And obviously Michael Wilson and Parker Washington play into this.
0:02And there was a lot of those discussions. I, I had a lot of concerns about Marvin Harrison and obviously you and
0:02I talked about them some during some of our drafts and stuff.
0:02Marvin Harrison. I just think this is, is pretty relevant as a, as a rookie had 885 yards, eight touchdowns as a
0:02top five pick as a guy who's going to get volume and kind of got force fed volume.
0:02And then last year was down to 600 yards.
0:02And I don't know that that was as much effort stuff.
0:02Maybe it was, but like he was, he was banged up obviously too.
0:02Yeah. He missed a lot of games, yards per game, 52 in year one, 51 in year two.
0:02Those are decent numbers for like a young player.
0:02Like I always remember a benchmark from really early on in my career at Roto visit would get bandied about was like
0:0240 yards per game as a rookie. If you're under that, you're kind of done.
0:02If you're over that, you have the chance to grow.
0:02And so being over 50 yards per game, even though he was underwhelming was like, Hey, at least there's some production here.
0:02Brian Thomas's rookie year. He had 75 yards per game.
0:02That's like legit prime aged star stuff. He had 1,282 yards.
0:02I think he was third in the NFL in receiving yards.
0:02If I remember the stat correctly, he looked like he was going to be on a superstar trajectory for sure.
0:02So it's a, it's a dip. Like when we talk about like, we don't know what he is, it is, it is pretty.
0:02And I, um, you said that, but on the show, but I think that that sentiment is shared like across the space.
0:02And then, so last year, even as like he was banged up some, but also like, I think the effort stuff was
0:02a lot clearer with Brian Thomas last year than Harrison.
0:02And he was still at 50 yards per game.
0:02He was right at the same level. Harrison spent both years when Harrison was like arguably trying more in the first two
0:02years is the way that I'm thinking of it.
0:02At least I just think Thomas has done more at the NFL levels where I'm going with this comparison.
0:02I think they get lumped together, but I think there's a lot more reason.
0:02I think that Harrison might just not be good enough and might be a bust that I think there actually is for Thomas.
0:02When you look at, I mean, he's only played 33 games, but the first, or excuse me, 37 games, but the first
0:0217, that first season, he's a 75 yards per game guys at, you know, 1300 yards almost.
0:02And then even last year he was at, you know, 707 and 14 games.
0:02It's not great, but it's, you know, again, it's on par with both of Harrison seasons, but anyway, go ahead.
0:02I'm inclined to agree with you. I mean, my, my guess is that Brian Thomas gets traded for similar or worse compensation than Marvin Harrison was.
0:02But I think that that'll be a mistake. I think that the NFL is going, I don't think that the NFL typically like, I don't know.
0:02Maybe this will sound contradictory, but like my vibe of how kind of the NFL, first of all, I think that the
0:02NFL is actually crazy inefficient with how it handles trade value.
0:02Like overall, I think it's like, I think it's like who gets traded for what relative to their contract status or like position they play.
0:02Or like, I think it's like way out of whack.
0:02And I think it's actually very exploitable in a number of ways.
0:02But why do you think that is? This is a huge tangent, but it's like agents and stuff, right?
0:02Like it's like weird forces. I don't know. I think it's so bizarre.
0:02And I think that there's a reason why GMs like Howie Roseman are like really active on the trade market.
0:02Like it just seems like, like the way that even you hear about it, like if you listen to like Schefter or
0:02Rapsheet or like these different insiders who clearly spend their whole times like very much in this bubble of agent and GM speak all the time.
0:02Like the way that they talk about it is as though they're describing like a formula.
0:02And it's like, well, like if you're this age or you have this contract, you play this position, like the like market compensation is this.
0:02And it's like that like does seem to be an accurate description.
0:02So like I understand if you're Adam Schefter and your job is to communicate how things work to the public, he's probably doing it reasonably.
0:02But every time I listen to this, I'm like that's nuts.
0:02It shouldn't work that way. One of the things in that formula, it doesn't consider, and sometimes it considers like statistics, but
0:02like the actual on-field play doesn't seem to have a big impact.
0:02But draft capital always gets factored in still, even like years later.
0:02And you're like, if they redrafted this, this guy would not go anywhere near where he went.
0:02People would be very concerned about him at that level.
0:02Why are we still sticking that to him three years later?
0:02That's weird. That's why I was like, that's why for like Harrison versus Thomas, for instance, it's like I think that recent play gets factored in a lot.
0:02Like if Thomas was having an amazing season right now, he'd go for a ton.
0:02I mean, he probably wouldn't be traded. But theoretically, if he was in the middle of an amazing season, he got traded.
0:02He's probably going for a lot. But since that season is now like, you know, a year and a half in the
0:02rear view, I think that in the NFL like world, that Harrison's like latent draft capital will carry as much or more sway as Thomas' 1,200-yard season.
0:02I don't think that that's appropriate. I just think that that's what the market will dictate.
0:02It's not just inappropriate. It's fucking insane. A 1,300-yard season.
0:02But do you think that that's off base? No, I don't.
0:02But it's insane. I do think I agree with you.
0:02I agree with your whole perspective that there's these like weird forces or like formulas or things that are impacting the ways that guys get looked at.
0:02And I don't really understand it. And there are inefficiencies to it, in my opinion, what guys can actually give teams.
0:02And I don't understand it as much on the defensive side, but it definitely seems to be consistent on defense and stuff
0:02as well with some of these trades. Because people will talk about that.
0:02I mean, Jeffrey Simmons just got traded for two firsts.
0:02And I was like, I mean, that's like, I know he's awesome.
0:02But like, that's a ton. And I remember when the Seahawks traded for Jamal Adams for two firsts.
0:02And it was like, he's a box safety. He's like, why did he?
0:02But he was like a top 10 overall pick and all this stuff.
0:02But then it was like clear that the NFL was like moving away from his type of player.
0:02Like, why was? Anyway, there's. And Sauce Gardner last year got.
0:02You were not thrilled about that. The Colts gave up two firsts, right?
0:02I mean, I thought that it was like. I thought the Colts were in a position where taking a massive gamble was
0:02reasonable because they were on such a narrow path.
0:02But I thought that it was a pretty big overpay.
0:02Yeah. Yeah. But it's like they needed to make a gamble and they had to pay some market rate.
0:02So they had to they had to live with that.
0:02Right. But yeah, I remember you pointing out that like the NFL, the way that they're playing more as its own and
0:02stuff was kind of going away from like a clear like man.
0:02Right. Star cornerback. Like and so like to pay that much for a guy who's like skill set is being a little
0:02bit deprioritized by the scheme of the NFL and where it's the words moving.
0:02Yeah, it's obviously problems because we've had to then switch to the Superman heavy scheme and then we become like a weak link system.
0:02And then what's happening is like Sauce is doing his job.
0:02Well, he's hurt right now, but he's played very well when he's been on the field.
0:02But like it hasn't really helped the defense actually, because then they just throw in other guys who aren't good.
0:02And it's like unless you have three really good man corners, like it kind of doesn't work to play that system particularly well.
0:02So you have to do it on like unless you have a pass rush.
0:02You have to do it on like half the field, right?
0:02Like that's that's what I recall. The Rams used to do with there's creative ways to do this that are better than what the Colts have done.
0:02But it's they've like whatever values like sauces continue to play quite well in isolation.
0:02And I actually feel bad for sauce because like he didn't choose what he got traded for and people like land based
0:02him and they act like he totally stinks. And it's not true.
0:02He like doesn't stink. He is like often quite good, but it hasn't made the impact on the Colts defense that they obviously thought that it would.
0:02And the way that it hasn't has been somewhat predictable.
0:02Yeah. Anyway, the trade. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the sauce one.
0:02I got us on a huge tangent there, but I agree with the broad point about the trade capital sort of formula being odd.
0:02It does seem like certain teams want to play by their own rules and not follow that trend, which like the Eagles
0:02are like, we're only going to make trade. And we have and like I remember the Browns for a while under Sashi
0:02were doing creative things like they were taking on contracts and things to at least like shuffle things up.
0:02And it like made sense. What was the Brock Osweiler trade where they like got draft compensation to take on Osweiler's contract to help out the Texans?
0:02And then the other one I was going to say is the Jags have Gladstone now as their GM young dude, and
0:02maybe they're trying to do things differently. But I think they're like they're in this spot where they're I everyone talks about it.
0:02They're like they're going to learn that you can't just like devalue the player and still get good draft compensation, although the Cardinals sort of did.
0:02Anyway, I mean, none of it makes sense. The Cardinals got more than I thought they would get for Harrison.
0:02Yeah, I mean, I'm interested. I think if the Jaguars are in an interesting spot because like I would love to have
0:02the true serum on Liam Cohen to talk about this Brian Thomas thing, because and I would also just love to know
0:02what offers were there for Thomas last deadline, because I have to imagine it would have been more just because it would
0:02have been like his awesome season would have been much closer to the time versus now we're a year and a half away from that.
0:02Because it seemed apparent immediately last year like. You know, Cohen tried to use Thomas in the way that best fit his
0:02offense and Lawrence and then found out pretty quickly that that's not really what Thomas is great at, and then they've reverted
0:02to using him in a way that's like more to Thomas's skill set, but in a way that is just never going
0:02to have much production in the Cohen offense, which is like has consistently hyperfed the middle of the field, which is a
0:02great fit for Lawrence who wants to hyperfeed the middle of the field.
0:02But then if you're the outside wide receiver in that offense, like Mike Evans had a career high yards per hour run with Cohen.
0:02He did. He did. Yeah, but he's like, he just like catches footballs better.
0:02Like, like, he's just, he's a star. Right? Like I think that, I mean, Thomas's biggest issue has been like the, the
0:02play strength and like the catch point stuff has not been good.
0:02It's a quarterback thing too. If you have that, I mean, so anyway, that's, that's part of the trade of the Rams.
0:02And so appealing is like Matthew Stafford will make that type of guy work.
0:02Like Matthew Stafford is the quarterback that and Baker and Baker will throw to that guy.
0:02Yeah. Like it's a con, it's a combo. I think of both like, cause Cohen's offenses have been pretty sloth friend.
0:02Like you go back to Wandale in college, you go to Godwin that year with the box, obviously with Parker Washington, you
0:02know, he came from the Rams with Cooper cop.
0:02So there's like a lot of in breakers, but yeah, it's not like he, yeah, you're right.
0:02It's a great point about Evans. And, and obviously like Devante Adams last year had like, you know, he wasn't the featured
0:02guy, but he had a big role. And he's really stepped up, you know, without Cooper or without Pukinokua for a couple of games this year.
0:02But what's your point on, what's your point on Adams?
0:02Just that Stafford. Oh, just like, yeah. Like, even though that's, well, cause McVay, like there's a similarity, right?
0:02With the Cohen offense. Oh, with the offense. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
0:02Yeah. But I'm saying like, when you add Stafford into that, like, I think it gives, it gives you a different element.
0:02Whereas like, with the combination of Cohen, which I think is like predisposed to these slot players anyways.
0:03But then you layer on top of that Lawrence, who is like awesome.
0:03Cause that's the only guy I want to throw to.
0:03Yeah. It's like, like it gets a diaper drive where like Cohen's really good at scheming stuff up over the middle of the field.
0:03That's the only stuff that Lawrence wants to throw.
0:03Oh, and so I think everything just kind of compounds on itself.
0:03But I'm, so I don't know what, like, I don't know what Thomas's role is on the scene.
0:03And like, I guess like they're not going to extend him.
0:03Right. I mean, pretty clearly there. I don't think they're going to extend this guy at big money.
0:03So at some point you're going to let him walk.
0:03And to me, it's like, I think you'd rather just cut your losses.
0:03Even if the return is not great. Cause you have, he seems like he seems the most likely, maybe other than downs,
0:03but the most likely for the guys on your list to get traded.
0:03I feel like they have to deal him. Like it's sort of like you're trying to win a super bowl.
0:03Why do you want a disgruntled guy? Like just move on.
0:03Right. Move on. Yep. Yeah. Better for the locker room.
0:03Get your draft capital. Move on. You're not going to pay him later.
0:03Like do not. You, you just like, you've made your decision.
0:03You've made your bet at this point. Like you, you, you paid Jacoby Myers as well.
0:03Travis Hunter needs to be playing a little bit more on offense and he's doing good things.
0:03Josh Cameron looks like a late round hit. I mean, you're doing, and then you have Parker Washington and you have Brenton
0:03strange and you have some tight end depth that you can do some stuff with.
0:03Like they, they're starting to play cozy hole a little bit.
0:03Our dude, but has made some catches. Yeah. He's been doing some stuff.
0:03Like you've got enough receivers and tight ends and depth that you can, you can get the draft capital back, even if
0:03it's underwhelming and move on from this player. And you kind of need to from the locker room perspective and everything you're
0:03saying, obviously it's not a fit at this point.
0:03Cause it was the same issues last year. And, you know, there was reason to believe that maybe they would be a
0:03little bit better this year, but it went south really quickly in 2026 and he's not even playing.
0:03And it's like, this is, but so when we were just talking about Brian Thomas, the player and what it could be.
0:03I mean, I don't know that he's going to be like a stud volume earner.
0:03I do think there was a little bit of a mirage there in year one with Mac Jones, sort of just feeding him on a dead season, whatever.
0:03And it was a small sample where he was really getting a lot of targets and a lot of volume and hitting on a lot of efficiency.
0:03I do think there's the potential for that a lot of efficiency, a lot of splash plays as not the focal point
0:03of your past game, but that secondary player, which is part of why I love him in an offense that can concentrate
0:03like the Rams, but has Puka Nakua, right? Yeah.
0:03The Chiefs one is really interesting too, though, because it's mostly just like it's fanfic where it's like, can we just get Patrick Mahomes a large receiver?
0:03Like he, even when he was like breaking NFL records early on, or at least tying them, he was the second quarterback
0:03ever to get 5,050 in a season. His number one receiver was Tyree Kill, who was like shorter than me.
0:03Like, I mean, he's never had, he got Taequann Thornton is like the closest thing he's had to like a vertical Paul downfield winner.
0:03And suddenly Taequann Thornton's hitting on like big plays every week.
0:03Like go get him, Brian Thomas, and let him chuck some balls to a dude with a catch radius down the field.
0:03Right? Like, come on. I'd love him on the Chiefs.
0:03I just like, I, I, I really can't envision the Jags as an, like the Colts don't care.
0:03Like they're, they're not going to win anything. So why would they care which conference?
0:03But like the Jags could play the Chiefs in the AFC championship game this year.
0:03I, I can't imagine they want to help the Chiefs.
0:03And that's also probably why T Higgins never made his way over there.
0:03If the Bengals were ever willing to consider things.
0:03Cause I mean, the Bengals were in the Superbowl.
0:03They did win the AFC around that time when people were talking about Higgins or not.
0:03Obviously it was a little later than that, that people were talking about Higgins as a potential trade candidate.
0:03But yeah, anyway, that's a, maybe, maybe we'll get Alec Pierce healthy and rolling next year.
0:03We could trade him to the Chiefs next deadline.
0:03Trade Alec Pierce to the Chiefs. Yeah. Next deadline.
0:03It's going to be nice and healthy. You just want to get rid of his $30 million contract here?
0:03No, I, he's like, if you get him, if you get him healthy, if you get 20, 20, if you get 20,
0:0324, 20, 25 Alec Pierce, that's even helped the Chiefs a ton.
0:03Are you kidding me? Yeah, no, he would. I'm not saying he wouldn't for sure.
0:03He's just, I don't think he's as good as his contract suggests that he is.
0:03I mean, what about 2020? I think he's been a lot better than Brian Thomas on the field recently.
0:03What about 2021 and 2022, Alec Pierce, where he was in the same role, but not hitting on deep throw?
0:03I mean, it was basically just... Well, 2021 and 2022, Alec Pierce, who played for the Cincinnati Bearcats.
0:03I meant 2022 and 2023, but the deep efficiency basically just fluctuated across the two years.
0:03His target rate was the same. Brian Thomas had a 1,300-yard season.
0:03Last year, Alec Pierce's career high was 1,003 yards.
0:03He did get to four digits by three yards.
0:03The year prior, the other one in the two-year sample that you're talking about how good he was, he had 824 yards.
0:03He had 37 catches. I mean, it's a Taequann Thornton role for sure.
0:03It's a better... It's an upgraded Taequann Thornton. I'll give you that.
0:03Massively upgraded Taequann Thornton. I like how that had 19 catches.
0:03Massively? Yeah. Well, he had 38, 37. He had 47 last year.
0:03Yeah, no, massively. Massively. Like, I think you really underrate these receivers in real life.
0:03Which receivers? I'm just underrating Alec Pierce. Like Pierce, Watson, like this group of receivers.
0:03Like, I think from like a real-life utility perspective, I grant your argument about like I wasn't drafting Pierce in fantasy this year.
0:03I mean, a lot of that was injury-related too.
0:03But like I think that these receivers are... I think that this archetype of receiver is better than I think you give them credit for.
0:03Like, if you're comparing Pierce to like Taequann Thornton, he's like really good.
0:03Well, no, no, no. I think he's very good.
0:03I said he's an upgraded version of Thornton for sure.
0:03I think if you put Alec Pierce on the Cincinnati Bengals and you gave him full health, he could do 95% of what Tee Higgins could do.
0:03So, you're saying I'm downgrading the archetype of receiver.
0:03But I'm trying to understand what you're saying because I've consistently said that that's why they've gotten paid because they're so valuable on NFL fields.
0:03And I'm not really saying that about a whole archetype.
0:03But it's like there's specific players that... Like the fact that Alec Pierce doesn't have a 50-catch season and the last two
0:03years has been able to have strong seasons because of, again, deep efficiency, which he's a good contested catch player.
0:03But we know that to be the most highly volatile form of wide receiver production is like it's a small sample in a season.
0:03You get like... He got 84 targets last year.
0:03How many of those were like 30-plus air yards?
0:03I mean, he did have a really high ADOT.
0:03But it's like 40 or 50 balls. And the percentage of those that you're catching, whether that's...
0:03I don't even know what the catch rates are.
0:0340% or sometimes it's the 30% for some guys or it's 25%.
0:03They have a really bad year. Or maybe it's 50%.
0:03If you're up at 50%, then suddenly you lead the league in yards per reception like you did the last two seasons.
0:03And I obviously acknowledge it is... Yards per target.
0:03In 2024, he led the league, yes. Fantastic. But there's also an element of target rate.
0:03Like, his yards per out run or not, like, massively through the roof?
0:03Because he is running vertical routes. There's caveats to it.
0:03I think he's a very valuable player. I think he's a very good player.
0:03I think he adds a ton to his scheme.
0:03He's certainly better than Taequann Thornton. The question of whether to use the word of, like, a massive upgrade on a guy
0:03like Thornton to me is just, like, what... At those specific skills, I think he's meaningfully better.
0:03But, like, Thornton's still good. But my question is, like, what else has he proven that he can do?
0:03Like, so maybe that's what you're talking about with the archetype element of, like, my criticism.
0:03But, like, I'm not trying to be, like, overly critical.
0:03But I do think people forget that, like, in the first two seasons of his career, he was not that good.
0:03His yards per target was very low. And he had basically the same role.
0:03He just didn't catch as many of the deep throws.
0:03Some of that's because Anthony Richardson was his quarterback for some of that.
0:03And, I mean, I think he's one of the best in the league at what he does.
0:03But it's... And it's very good to scheme. But it's...
0:03To make, like, any pass scheme work. I think it would be great.
0:03But, like, to say that he could do 90 or 95% of what Tee Higgins does, I don't know if I buy that.
0:03Higgins does a lot more in the intermediate and shallow ranges.
0:03He's more of a well-rounded receiver to me. But they are similar archetypes.
0:03So then that's my question of, like, what is the archetype?
0:03You mean, like, deep threat-only types? Because I've said that same...
0:03Well, I guess it's... I guess, like, I think that the...
0:03Like, I don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you. But, like, we were talking about, like, get Tee Higgins to Chiefs, whatever.
0:03And I'd thrown out the Pierce example. And, I mean, I know he's literally hurt right now.
0:03So it's, like, beyond hypothetical. But, like, you know, you're talking about...
0:03You're like, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, he'd be an upgrade over the Taequan Thornton role.
0:03Like, I think Higgins is a better player than Pierce.
0:03But I think that the Chiefs... I think Pierce is, like, way closer to Higgins than he is to Thornton.
0:03Like, in terms of, like... Thornton, to me, is, like, a pure, like, situational deep threat.
0:03Like, he's, like, the upgraded, like, apex version of, like, a 2-2 Atwell or an MVS.
0:03Whereas, like, Pierce is, like, a true X receiver who can win on posts, go routes, contested cast situations.
0:03You can also throw hinge routes to him. Like, he can win on the boundary and box out a defender.
0:03Thornton can't do that. He can win on a dig route.
0:03Like, he was hitting on that in a rate in year four that, like, wasn't really part of his toolkit the first few years.
0:03Like, I think you can do a lot more things than just, like, you know, scheme up a go route every now and then.
0:03So, to that point, what... Just, I mean, this is a total tangent.
0:03But just for me to kind of defend what I see as different...
0:03I'm definitely not trying to overstate this stat. There's people that freak out about this stat.
0:03But targets per route run is an interesting one when you think about everything you just said about winning on a lot of different types of routes.
0:03Are you actually winning on enough different types of routes to earn a lot of targets per route?
0:03Or... And then the way that interacts with ADOT.
0:03Because Alec Pierce, the last two years by PFF's numbers, had an ADOT over 20, which is massive, massive.
0:03There's not been... I remember doing my off-season research.
0:03There had only been one other 1,000-yard season. It was Sammy Watkins in the last however many years with an ADOT over 17, even.
0:03Which is like... I mean, three yards less than 20 is a pretty significant gap, obviously.
0:03But Pierce had the 1,000 yards last year. And Sammy Watkins' season was like 1050.
0:03It was, I think, one of the years he was with the Rams.
0:03To have that high of an ADOT means that you're not actually doing a ton in the intermediate and earning volume.
0:03So, Higgins' career low in targets per route run in seven seasons is 18.7%.
0:03He had a 21.2% as a rookie. He's been over 20% four of the seven years, including this year in the smaller sample.
0:03His ADOT fluctuates between like 11 and 14 because he's getting stuff lower.
0:03And then that's why the targets per route run are higher.
0:03Alec Pierce's career high targets per route run last year was 17.4%, below Higgins' career low.
0:03So, meaningfully, a full percentage point and a half below Higgins' career low.
0:03Prior to that, that 2024 season that was also very good, 14.6%.
0:03That's quite low. And for people who don't deal with this stat a ton, if you get down to like 10%, you're basically never getting targeted.
0:03There's five eligible receivers on a route. And a lot of times, not all five of them are out in a route.
0:03So, just by being a receiver out in routes, 20% is sort of like the...
0:03Hopefully, you're getting that on at least some. There are routes where there's not even a targeted player.
0:03So, like, it's not five eligible receivers. They all get 20% because sacks, throwaways, different things.
0:03But like 20% to me is like sort of the benchmark.
0:03It's lower. The benchmark is lower for high ADOT players.
0:03You don't need to earn 25% targets per route when you're a 28-odd player.
0:03I'm not holding him to that standard. But like Alec Pierce's first rookie year was 15.9%, which is good.
0:03But then he went down to 10.4% in year two and he ran 600 routes that year.
0:03It's his highest route total. And then 14... But like some of that Anthony Richardson scheme, whatever.
0:03Mostly, that was mostly Minshew. Okay, Minshew. Okay, that's why it was.
0:03Yeah, it had to have been something because that's a weird outlier.
0:03When I look at these stats, I'm like, that's not even on Pierce.
0:03It's a quarterback. That makes perfect sense. But then 14.6% in 2024.
0:03And then last year was the spike season for him at 17.4%.
0:03Again, not the only number, but in terms of like being a legit X receiver, can you do everything I need you to do, et cetera, et cetera.
0:03That's nothing like what T. Higgins has done. I don't think he can do everything.
0:03I don't think he can do everything. I think he can do more things than Tyquan Thornton.
0:03For sure. But Tyquan, so I pulled up Tyquan Thornton.
0:03So far this year, he's at 15.3%. Last year with the Chiefs in 258 routes, he was at 14.0%.
0:03It's not quite at Alec Pierce. And I said Alec Pierce is upgraded.
0:03But when you're saying like massively upgraded, he also has the really high ADOT like Pierce.
0:03And so I think he's had really strong yards per target the last couple of years with the Chiefs.
0:03If you look at them like from this perspective of like the just the statistical perspective of and I understand there's a lot of ball numbers.
0:03Like if Matt Harmon was listening to this, he'd be like pounding his head on the ground on the table at the
0:03way that I'm talking about these players. So statically about these stats and he'd be right to do so.
0:03But this confluence of like ADOT, targets per outrun, yards per target efficiency, which Thornton has been very, very strong on.
0:03And essentially all those things in relation to each other and how the targets per outrun is going to come up as the ADOT comes down.
0:03Or it's coming up because you're getting more targets in the shallow area.
0:03Like Thornton and Pierce to me are these like not one note deep threats, but similar.
0:03And Pierce has been very efficient. They're really high yards per targets.
0:03But so has Thornton the last couple of years.
0:03So anyway, that's why in my mind they're kind of linked.
0:03I don't even know that I would put Christian Watson fully in that category because like even in the offseason when I
0:03talked about him a little, I was his ADOT the last year has been over 18.
0:03But early in his career, like even as a rookie, it was 14.3.
0:03He's had some years where it was lower. And I don't know.
0:03I guess I had less certainty that he was only a deep threat.
0:03And it also seemed like with Dobbs gone that he would likely have his ADOT come down, which it has.
0:03It has come down. It's more in the 15 range now.
0:03Well, I think also way better ball and hand player.
0:03Like he's a guy you can do some like, you know, that kind of like drag catch and run stuff where if
0:03you can get him moving laterally in space, like he's I think far more of a force with the ball in his hands.
0:03And that was I don't even know if they've done that.
0:03We've done that a bit this year. I feel like the year that they tapped into that most was his rookie year
0:03back with Aaron Rodgers where they used him on a lot of those like shallow crossers and stuff where he'd catch and just run up through the defense.
0:03I remember that a lot. That's right. Yeah. I don't know if it shows up in the stats, but that's the way I think of him.
0:03I remember that stuff. And so it's more just like having watched it.
0:03Similar bit how they use JMO sometimes where he can like be a deep threat, but sometimes he catches like an eight
0:03yard pass and then he turns it into a.
0:03And Higgins fits that for me. Totally. Higgins fits that for me.
0:03These these are these are deep players. They're explosive play guys, but they also do enough in the short and intermediate range
0:03that I'm not sure that out Pierce does specifically.
0:03Now, Brian Thomas is really interesting because you could get into this conversation with him and say, does he do enough?
0:03Because his a dots were very high in college.
0:03I mentioned how that rookie year is a dot was a lot lower.
0:03His targets per run was very high. He was at 24.7 percent targets per out with an 11.9 a dot.
0:03That's like legit number one stuff where you're getting enough short and intermediate and downfield.
0:03So like 11.9 is above average, but not way above average.
0:03When you get way above average, it's like it's because it's an average depth of target and you're not getting enough shallow stuff.
0:03You need actually shallow stuff to get enough targets.
0:03Overall, you can't have this massive a dot be the only thing that you bring to the table.
0:03It's an average. And so like a well-rounded receiver profile is getting targets at all depths.
0:03You can't really have massive target volume at one depth.
0:03I mean, some guys do a lot of stuff shallow, but even that you then you want those guys to get vertical targets.
0:03Like I wanted to see McKay Lemon, his a dot go up.
0:03We're going to talk about him probably a little bit today.
0:03I want to see that go up. We got to see it from Concepciona this week.
0:03His a dot was at 11. They threw downfield to him.
0:03He didn't catch either of the two deep targets that he got, but at least they were showing some intent to do that stuff.
0:03He wasn't quite doing with Lemon yet, but with Thomas that year one, a dot.
0:03I worry too much of it was like force fed wide receiver screens and not actually like shallow in breakers or like actual in, you know, repeatable routes.
0:03And then the very next year, last year, he was at a 14.8.
0:03So far this year was at 14.2. You're talking about similar to, you know, the Alec Pierce, like higher eight.
0:03And then his targets per out run has been lower 18.7 last year, but even that 18.7 at a 14.8, a dot
0:04looks more like, you know, the T Higgins seasons, right?
0:04It's a little bit Sutton. Yeah. Like it's better than Alec Pierce.
0:04Current court and Sutton, by the way, like who is kind of a corpse, but like prime court and Sutton.
0:04It's, it's better than like, I, I, the Pierce is the one where I'm just still like, I don't know if he
0:04can do enough of the other stuff to be more for a scheme than Thornton.
0:04Like if he went to the chiefs, he would be better than Thornton on all of the deep stuff, but Thornton's been very good on it.
0:04But like, he'd be even better. He'd be able to win through double coverages and stuff.
0:04Like he's a very good contested catch receiver. My question would be like, how much would he open up their whole offense
0:04differently than Thornton was already giving them as a deep threat?
0:04He would draw more coverage, I think, because he is like, I think he'd be more of a threat to defensive coordinators.
0:04I think it's the big body stuff with Pierce.
0:04Like there was like, um, they, they started to tap into it a little bit more last year.
0:04They didn't as much previously because Pittman was soaking a lot of that up, but just like, he's a big dude who has really strong hands.
0:04And so even on some of the routes where he doesn't create a ton of separation, you can just kind of like
0:04throw it like on those like 15 yard comeback routes, for instance, like Philip Rivers did this a couple of times where
0:04he just kind of like threw the like saddest ball you've ever seen on the Seahawks game was a great example of this.
0:04Where they came back, they got the field goal to go ahead and they ended up blowing the game, but it was
0:04like third and 10 and Rivers basically just like with ridiculous anticipation, because he knew the ball would take about 15 seconds
0:04to get to the target, just like flung this duck like out to the sideline and Pierce is just running about a 15 yard comeback.
0:04And he had like zero separation, but like he just is big and he just like kind of got the rebound.
0:04And like he can do some of that stuff where it's like he makes those 50-50 balls, 70-30 balls, and that's not only down the field.
0:04They started last year using it more on like deep dig routes too, like running dagger.
0:04And if they would sometimes use like Doolin randomly as the post guy, and then use Pierce as the inbreaker at like 15, 17 yards.
0:04It's like not like short area crossers, but that deeper intermediate area, the like 15 yard comebacks, 15 yard digs.
0:04I think he can do that stuff well. That's what the first...
0:04He has good catch point stuff in traffic, which that's the fear with Thomas.
0:04It's like just the hands, honestly. It's like can you make plays while being contacted consistently enough?
0:04Is it effort? Is it focus? Or is it like a kind of a deficiency?
0:04I'm not sure. Totally. That's fair. And I think Pierce is better in those exact ways that you said, even though I
0:04would still take Thomas overall for a lot of the other reasons we're talking about.
0:04But that's everything you just described. We were actually seeing in week one with Pierce.
0:04I watched... I remember watching... As you were talking through that, I was remembering watching week one and being like, oh, I was wrong on Pierce.
0:04Because I do think there's a possibility that his role could have evolved this year with Pittman gone.
0:04And it looked like he had six targets, four catches, 61 yards.
0:04It was a lower ADOT situation. His ADOT had...
0:04So far this year had come down to 16.7.
0:04Not way up in the 20 range. Still high.
0:04But his targets per run... He only ran 29 routes.
0:04But his targets per run were very high as well.
0:0424%. I mean, they were thrown in the ball.
0:04And he was making plays. He actually looked like a key part of what they wanted to do in week one.
0:04Not having him, arguably, a big part of what has been an issue for the Colts.
0:04It's hurt them a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And even if he hadn't grown into a massive part of the statistical production, it's just like...
0:04It hurts so much when you have... You lose one of the best deep threats in the league.
0:04And then you have no deep threat at all.
0:04They threw that downfield around to Keenan Allen a couple weeks ago.
0:04It was the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life.
0:04Oh, my God. Just the whole scheme. Their deep threat receiver now is Laquan Treadwell.
0:04So it's just beyond Joever. It's so bad. The whole scheme is such...
0:04It was so tied to his health. Yeah. Which gets back to why the GM no longer has a job, probably.
0:04The bilitated ankle. Yep. That is a lie. All right.
0:04I have one more trade. And then we'll get into the draft.
0:04This one, 1,000% fan fiction. It's not happening. But I really want it to happen.
0:04Okay? I'm the New York Jets. I've just called you up.
0:04You run the Bengals now. And I called you up.
0:04I said, hey, look. We think we have two top 15 running backs in the league.
0:04We are happy to keep both of them. But I've been so impressed with Braylon Allen that you can get your hands on Brees Hall.
0:04And I noticed you have two 27 thirds. You have an extra comp pick.
0:04I forget who you lost. But you lost someone.
0:04So you have a comp pick. I'm going to ask for your 2027 compensatory third round pick.
0:04You can get your hands on Brees Hall to come and give you a little jolt to your running game.
0:04Guy who's also really good in the passing game.
0:04What do you say? I think I say yes.
0:04Right? I mean, last year, I criticized the Chiefs quite a bit for not paying the third to get him.
0:04And he was on an expiring contract. They've re-signed him.
0:04He's now cost a lot of money. And yet, like, not...
0:04I mean, it's a running back contract. It's a high contract, but it's not like an insane contract.
0:04And the Bengals... I mean, I guess I don't know enough about the Bengals cap situation.
0:04I know they're going cheap at running back with a day three rookie...
0:04Excuse me. Rookie contract, right? I don't think they've extended Chase Brown.
0:04No, they have not. Cheap, you know, cheap veterans because they've paid Burrow, Chase, and Higgins a ton of money.
0:04And how much can you invest in your skill positions and not have a bad offensive line and a bad defense?
0:04And it's like part of the issue with the Bengals.
0:04It's like, this is a team that probably does not want a large running back contract.
0:04Just structurally. Because you need to allocate resources to offensive line and defense.
0:04Having said that, assuming that, you know, I'm Kevin Costner here and I can just ask Jennifer Gardner after the fact if it works under the cap.
0:04Yeah, she's going to figure it out. She's going to figure it out.
0:04So, yeah, man. I mean, Chase Brown's 26. Like, he's not been great as a runner.
0:04I think he's a very good player. But, like, Brie Saul's the younger player.
0:04And I think better. I think he looked a little bit sluggish earlier this year.
0:04And I do think it's a real concern that Braylon Allen has looked so good.
0:04But Brie Saul's really good in space. He was still very, very good in the pass game.
0:04His yards per hour run is, like, massive right now.
0:04And Braylon Allen's has been bad. I think when Hall comes back, what you're going to see is Hall still do more in the pass game at least.
0:04But Braylon Allen probably be, you know, a run game hammer.
0:04Which is, you know, whatever. Kyron Williams, Blake Horm.
0:04Like, if you get something like that from the Jets.
0:04Although, you're going to get into a much worse offense sort of a thing.
0:04But, like, Allen may even be more than Horm.
0:04Anyway, we'll see how that evolves. The reason I bring that up as far as Hall's fit on the Bengals is it
0:04gets back to this concept of Ken Walker having room to run when he goes to the Chiefs.
0:04Because defenses are going to be in these deep areas.
0:04They're going to defend the pass. Javante Williams is maybe the better example of having space to operate.
0:04And he consistently finds space. Even though he's, like...
0:04I mean, I joked about it in Ceiling Signals this week.
0:04But his big run to the outside late in that game against the Eagles, he completely slammed on the brakes.
0:04And then, like, a huge hole, like, opened up.
0:04Like, the Red Sea. And they called it a stutter step on the broadcast.
0:04I was like, that wasn't even a stutter step.
0:04I've seen stutter steps. Like, running backs chopped their feet.
0:04That was a slam on the brakes where you wind up getting tackled.
0:04Because the opportunity sort of passes. But it didn't pass.
0:04And it doesn't pass. Like, the Eagles run D was horrible.
0:04The Cowboys block it up. But also, like, the personnel that's on the field to stop the Cowboys has to account for
0:04CeeDee Lamb and George Pickens at all times. And so you get running lanes.
0:04You get space. You get opportunities like this. The way I wrote it up was that Javante Williams slammed on his feet
0:04on the brakes so hard that when the lane opened and he started running, both Zach Bond in the inside and Quinjon Mitchell on the outside were unblocked.
0:04And they kind of had their own run fit lanes, whatever.
0:04Like, you know, they had to be where they had to be.
0:04But they both got, like, flat-footed. Because they – and I wrote it as – in my opinion, my read on it
0:04was that they both, from, like, a field perspective, as soon as they saw the running back slam on the brakes that
0:04hard, were like, oh, he's bottled up. Like, they can't see how the angles, you know, through all the massive bodies.
0:04Like, oh, he's bottled up. And then he started running again really quickly through the lane.
0:04And they're like, oh, crap. And they both didn't have an angle.
0:04And it's like, you're both unblocked in the second level.
0:04And he runs right through you guys for, like, 40 yards.
0:04But again, I think it was all because it was just so irregular.
0:04Like, to the degree he just slammed on the brakes in the backfield.
0:04So, I'm saying all that just to say that, like, when these passing games have such dynamic – I was talking about the Chiefs.
0:04So, I'm hesitating to say dynamic receiving weapons because the Chiefs clearly don't.
0:04But Patrick Mahomes has always kind of been defended that way.
0:04It opens up run room. I think this benefits James Cook to a massive way because, like, you're just worried about stopping Josh Allen.
0:04Like, even though they don't have dynamic receivers. And so, James Cook is going to get rushing opportunities.
0:04He's going to find space. And I think it's benefited Ken Walker.
0:04Even though Ken Walker is obviously playing at a massive level too.
0:04I think these things are symbiotic. Like, Ken Walker's missed tackles force rate, massive.
0:04Part of how I would describe that is it's a lot easier to force a missed tackle when you're a 220-pound elite
0:04athlete on undersized defensive back players and second-level defenders than it is to force a missed tackle on, like, a huge defensive
0:04tackle grabbing you in the backfield before you've gotten into some space and you're moving.
0:04It's one of the things that, like, when you're not up to speed yet.
0:04When you're running in space, you can do your cutbacks.
0:04You can do your moves. It's a lot harder when you're getting hit in the backfield.
0:04So, like, once you find that first-level space, then you can create angles and different things.
0:04That's what these guys do. These are really good running backs.
0:04And I think it's had a big effect on Walker even though he's also shed defensive lineman tackles.
0:04Like, there's obviously caveats to the point that I'm making.
0:04But all of that being said, I do think the Bengals create that kind of space for their running backs.
0:04I think they've created it for Chase Brown for a couple of years, and it's kind of a bummer that he's struggled to find those lanes.
0:04The fact that they could pivot to Samaj P.
0:04Ryan and get some decent rushing out of 32-year-old Samaj P.
0:04Ryan is, I think, an evident point to this.
0:04Same way that the Chiefs last year, like, people wanted to be like, Kareem Hunt's actually playing pretty good.
0:04Look at his success rate. And I was like, dude, his success rate's good because there's nobody in the box.
0:04But as soon as he hits a defender, it's the definition of three yards at a cloud of dust, right?
0:04But all of that would fit very well for current Brees Hall, who did look a little sluggish in the backfield at times and getting into space.
0:04But once he's in space, it's still very dynamic.
0:04He looked really – he made some really nice plays in the pass game early this season.
0:04There was one that was like a third and 17 where he juked – he did a cutback that juked three defenders
0:04– I can't remember which game it was, but three guys over pursued.
0:04And he converted a third and long. Three open field tackles that were unblocked.
0:04Juked all of them because of his, like, whatever, dead leg, you know, juke step.
0:04He's good. Like, he's legitimately good at creating space.
0:04And he still has long speed. If you get him up to speed, he can run.
0:04But he just looked a little hesitant at times in the backfield and those things.
0:04But, yeah, get him on the Cowboys. Get him on the Bengals.
0:04Get him on – you know, the Chiefs last year was a big reason I wanted to get him on the Chiefs.
0:04Get him in a place where he can find space around the line of scrimmage.
0:04You're going to see that second-level dynamism, I think, from him.
0:04So he would be a really fun addition to the Bengals if – I'm taking that trade.
0:04I'm giving up a third-round pick for it. As long as Jennifer Garner, my wife and capologist, can fit it all under the cap.
0:04I don't think they're married. I think they're just living in sin in draft day.
0:04Beautiful. I believe. Even better. They have a really nice scene in the closet where they're kind of hanging out and they're
0:04trying to keep things, I think, on the down low.
0:04Anyway, it's a scintillating movie. It's a romance. It's a sports movie.
0:04It's got everything. It's a comedy. It's a drama.
0:04Yeah. Draft Day. Can't beat Draft Day. All right.
0:04That doesn't for the short piece. I would argue that you already admitted we could beat Draft Day by a lot.
0:04In terms of quality, it's hard not to beat it.
0:04Certainly in terms of football moves that make sense, there's never been – it's almost astonishing the degree to which the makers
0:04of Draft Day don't know anything about the NFL.
0:04It's almost like how bad the realism is. But that's part of the charm from a certain perspective.
0:04That was the short view, an hour of trade talk, but a lot of discussion of players moving around.
0:04I'm sure people – a lot of fantasy managers are curious what they should do with a lot of these players, what it could mean.
0:04Brian Thomas, those kinds of guys are available to pick up in some leagues.
0:04What do we think about those guys? What do we think about these teams?
0:04I think that was a fun conversation. For the long view, Jacob, this is our draft.
0:04For people who are watching on YouTube, I've pulled it up here on the screen.
0:04We went eight rounds. We didn't really set any stipulations about what you needed to do or when to pick guys.
0:04One of the things that happened is we started to kind of take some QBs later.
0:04I don't – I mean, I don't think I took a single QB.
0:04I was kind of – oh, no, I ended up taking Jane Daniels way too high.
0:04I was kind of just choosing not to pretend like quarterback – I don't know why.
0:04This is a late night, Wednesday night draft. After doing waivers all day Wednesday, the FFPC waiver deadline hit at 7 p.m.
0:04over here on the Pacific Coast. And we started recording like 15 minutes later.
0:04And I was like – personally, I don't know.
0:04I'm sure you felt somewhat similarly. I'd be curious.
0:04But I was like, you know what? I didn't do a whole lot of preparation.
0:04I'm just going to go in and fly by the seat of my pants a little bit.
0:04But I'm not going to stand by all the valuations that we hit on here.
0:04But – and probably I was saying it a little bit in those last couple rounds.
0:04Probably we should have had some more of the QBs in there in those last couple rounds.
0:04There's some tight ends that we kind of forgot about and stuff.
0:04But there's a lot of running back and receiver discussion and interrelated when guys went that was very, very interesting.
0:04So anyway, your thoughts? I mean, I thought it was a super fun night, first of all.
0:04I had a blast. I hope people go and listen to that show.
0:04I thought we were all in pretty fine form.
0:04And yeah, it was just – it was super fun getting together with a bunch of sharp dudes and kind of thinking through.
0:04I thought that – I thought that it was – that it went pretty in line.
0:04Like, yeah, I mean, I'm sure if I went back with a fine-tooth comb and I got my spreadsheets out, we'd probably move some things around.
0:04But I thought it – I thought it was a fun exercise to see, like, how much we've adjusted, you know, half
0:04of the season, preseason expectations versus what's happening. I thought it was a really fun window of time to do this because
0:04it's coming off of the last two weeks we've had, like, a bunch of rookie breakouts.
0:04And so just kind of seeing how they fell into the mix I thought was a super fun aspect of this and to see how excited people were.
0:04And then I thought it was fun to kind of figure out – like, I get a feel naturally for, like, where the tiers were.
0:04Like, you know, there were certain spots where I found myself feeling like, gosh, like, who am I going to pick?
0:04Like, you know, I can pick anybody. And other spots where I'm like, man, like, there's, like, one or two clear guys.
0:04And then it's really going to drop off at a certain spot.
0:04So a fun exercise, I think, you know, probably people aren't doing midseason drafts.
0:04But, you know, if you're looking at trades, et cetera, you know, listen back to that.
0:04Kind of think through that, like, tier-based system. And from a construction angle, I think it would be very valuable.
0:04So, yeah, where do you want to start? I'll note, too, if people are listening to this in audio form, we'll kind
0:04of walk through some of the picks between whatever ones you want to highlight.
0:04If you're watching this in video form, we have the draft board behind us.
0:04So you can see it. Yeah, it's going to be hard to, like, talk through all of it.
0:04I was thinking as we talked about some. Yeah, we're not going to talk about every pick at all.
0:04Yeah, there's eight rounds. But as we went about 100 picks.
0:04As we highlight some players, we'll talk about some of the players that went around them and those things.
0:04I want to start with Zay Flowers. You hilariously decided to put on your draft day pants and trade up into, I guess, from 12 to 10.
0:04Well, so what we did was there was four of us, and we each drafted three teams.
0:04So I was supposed to draft teams four, eight, and 12.
0:04You were which? Were you two? No, you were three.
0:04I was, yeah, I was three, seven, and 11.
0:04That's right. Right. But I traded. You traded up from 12 to 10.
0:04So you could get. We just ended up swapping teams.
0:04I ended up taking teams five, or ended up taking teams four, eight, and 10, because I really wanted to pick Zay Flowers.
0:05So then Ryan Heath was nice enough to oblige and draft team 12 and stuff.
0:05So, and I kind of gave you a little bit of, like, minor flack there, but I was laughing because the trade
0:05up thing is, you know, we're joking about trading up and, you know, giving away future assets and all of these things.
0:05But it's always an overconfidence thing with trade ups, and I thought it was fascinating because Zay Flowers at 10, to me, is a really interesting discussion point.
0:05I think he's an interesting discussion point from a couple of different standpoints.
0:05One, I think he belongs in this range, certainly.
0:05I'm not saying he, like, should go way later, but I made a comment on the show that basically, like, you traded
0:05up for a guy that maybe could have been available for you.
0:05The first nine picks were Gibbs, JSN, Ken Walker, Bijon, Jamar Chase, McCaffrey, Lamb, Puka Nakua, and Aminor St.
0:05Brown. So that's where we were. I, at 11, behind Flowers took Brock Bowers, who you acknowledged was somebody else that you
0:05were looking at and figured that these two guys might go, and then you wouldn't know who to take at 12.
0:05At 12, Ryan took Malik Neighbors, who I think also very much belongs in this range, even though J.J.
0:05McCarthy is J.J. McCarthy. Because Neighbors has looked really, really good, and I think it's only getting healthier and healthier.
0:05And so it's not like a negative Flowers point as much as I was like the trade up element.
0:05And I wanted to talk about it because you felt like there was kind of a teardrop after him.
0:05And I feel like Flowers has looked like maybe the best receiver in football.
0:05I mean, he's looked insane. But the comment I made to you, and we didn't really linger because we had eight rounds
0:05to do, was that I worry about the overall volume of the offense.
0:05You said a very fair point about when Lamar comes back.
0:05And as you made the pick, you noted he's only played four quarters with his quarterback this year.
0:05I mean, they've barely played together. And he's been great in those quarters.
0:05He looks like he could have 200-yard games every time Lamar's on the field.
0:05So probably I'm overthinking it. But I guess I'm still a little bit in terms of what his real ceiling is.
0:05Because I think he's in this group. And this is what I want to hear you talk through.
0:05Because if you take a guy at 10, if you trade up to take a guy at 10, you're saying, I think
0:05he could be the wide receiver one overall. I mean, you're thinking he could be meaningfully better than a lot of the guys that go ahead of him.
0:05And I think that's fair based on what we've seen, certainly.
0:05You look at the yards per hour run stuff, all of that is very fair.
0:05Other than the part where I'm like, I'm still skeptical of, will there be enough pass volume?
0:05Will there be enough? And I mean, the offenses look great with Declan Doyle, as you pointed out on the show and everything.
0:05But I wanted to get more of your thoughts on the Flowers' pure ceiling with the offense.
0:05Because the per hour run stuff is so, so good.
0:05But then you get into the, like, I get into the projection mindset of if the total volume's not there, and it
0:05really has a tough time getting there because of some of the, like, real systemic things with the way Lamar plays quarterback,
0:05and he's going to scramble some, and all these things.
0:05Then you get into a question of, like, well, can the per hour run stuff continue to be as good as it is?
0:05Or is that destined to be very good, but not elite or out of this world?
0:05And I will counter myself before I kick it to you by saying, that's the reason people were low on JSN, and he has just done it again.
0:05You already stole what I was going to say.
0:05I was like, you sound like all the bros that were like, actually, I would rather have CeeDee Lamb and Amonra over
0:05JSN because he can't keep this up, and regression, and regression, and regression.
0:05But Seattle, so I thought that that's a fascinating one.
0:05But Seattle still had a pocket pass or quarterback, and they didn't play from behind much last year, and there was actually
0:05reason to believe that JSN could offset that. But anyway, JSN is on another level in my mind.
0:05But, I mean, essentially, I guess the question is, is Zay Flowers so good that, I mean, you didn't take him ahead
0:05of Chase and Lamb, but I think Neighbors has, like, a ceiling that's on par with those guys.
0:05But Chase and Lamb's teams are going to throw so much more.
0:05Is Zay Flowers so good that he's right there with JSN in terms of being able to transcend low pass volume by
0:05being that dynamic per route and just dominate his passing game to that level?
0:05I guess your answer is yes. I'm inclined to think yes.
0:05That's my answer. I mean, I've always been, I've always, I would say, been materially higher on Zay Flowers than the consensus,
0:05going back to him as a prospect. I never thought, like, until this moment, like this year, that he was, like, potentially
0:05one of the five best receivers in the league.
0:05So even as someone that's, like, like, what I'm trying to say by that is, like, you know, it's not like I'm victory lap.
0:05I mean, like, I was right all along because I was never saying, like, this is one of the five best receivers on earth.
0:05Like, even as I've continued to be ahead of the curve, I think, on Flowers, he has continued to surprise me with how much he's developed.
0:05And this year, I've been, like, you know, I like Zay Flowers a lot this year, but I didn't rank him at the 110 coming into the season.
0:05So I've obviously been surprised by the degree to which he's taken off.
0:05I do think, though, that he is a guy that has gotten a bit of a bad rap as being, like, a
0:05slot player or a gadget player when he's had the ability to win outside his entire career, even going back to Boston College.
0:05And then he had a breakout season last year in terms of what he could control.
0:05Like, whether you want to look at that through a yards per outrun lens, whether you want to look at that through,
0:05like, Matt Harmon's charting or other film people who have studied Zay Flowers.
0:05I was like, I felt like last year he had made the leap from, like, very good receiver to, like, potentially elite receiver.
0:05And we just didn't quite get the production to go along with that leap in talent because he had to play games
0:05with Cooper Rush and Tyler Huntley and then, like, a very diminished version of Lamar Jackson.
0:05And then this year we get the new OC.
0:05You know, we initially got Lamar healthy, although not for long.
0:05It looked like he was going to go berserk.
0:05And then what's most encouraging to me is that he's actually managed to stay pretty darn productive even with Tyler Huntley.
0:05Like, even with an offense in which Derek Henry's been easily neutralized the last couple of weeks, Tyler Huntley's been whatever.
0:05Like, the one thing in this offense that still consistently worked has been Zay Flowers because I think he's just been that
0:05good and the way that Declan Doyle's been able to, like, really, really intentionally scheme him into space has been very beneficial.
0:05And, like, it's a bit similar to what the Seahawks have done with JSN very intelligently over the last couple of years.
0:05And I don't mean that to discredit them at all.
0:05I think it's actually a massive credit to them that, like, there are players that are so good that they can win
0:05on their own, but also they're so good that their offensive coordinators are deciding, like, no, we're building this whole passing game
0:05around this guy and we're going to consistently cater to put them in the best spots possible to succeed because they earned
0:05that and they're going to be able to do...
0:05They're going to be able to take advantage of their chances more efficiently than anybody else.
0:05So, yeah, I mean, it's been a bit of a small sample in terms of him scoring at this level.
0:05I guess what I would say is I don't think it's necessarily quite as small of a sample of him showing the
0:05capability to do it at this level. And especially when you look at his 2025 season with the proper hindsight of how
0:05his 2026 season has gone so far, and then you see that really weighty contract that the Ravens gave him where I
0:05think they clearly anticipated this breakout coming. Like, it makes sense to me that he would have taken this big of a leap.
0:05And I think that if Lamar can come back and be Lamar, and that is a big if because we saw him
0:05play through injuries last year and it was not great.
0:05So maybe we see the same issues this year.
0:05But if he can come back and be Lamar, like, my confidence level in the offense to score efficiently is immense.
0:05And while I agree that obviously the volume is going to be an issue, I do think that they're going to put up a ton of points.
0:05And they've lost, you know, a couple games here without Lamar.
0:05So I think they're going to have to play aggressively.
0:05And I think that they're well calibrated too. So yeah, I mean, I think he has a chance in a similar way
0:05to JSN to be able to keep pace with the Amonras, the Pukas, the Lambs, and the Chases who are going to throw more.
0:05Because I do think he's that good. I think the offense is, or the passing game at least, is built entirely around him.
0:05And I think the scheme is really positive. The degree to which the passing game has been built around him is, it very much fits the JSN thing.
0:05Even so, I guess zooming out for a sec, I got some feedback in my Signals Gold Q&A this week about our
0:05Lam and Concepcion discussion last week that sort of appeared down on Concepcion.
0:05And then it was asking me to square that with the fact that I was very, you know, when I wrote about
0:05him, I was very optimistic about the prospect profile and thought he looked really, really good.
0:05And people drafted him, stealing signals, subscribers drafted him based on that.
0:05And they're like, wait, why are you acting like he's not good?
0:05And I mean, one of the things that, the reason I'm zooming out is like, one of the things when we talk
0:05about these things is like, Jacob and I are inclined to see things very similarly.
0:05Challenging each other's perceptions on how high we are on certain guys and things does not mean that like the other person is going to be down.
0:05I mean, we argued about Lemon versus Concepcion preseason on this show.
0:05So it's not actually, yeah. So it's like, even though we're probably both higher on both players than most people, it's been a distinction for a while.
0:05It is, it has. But like even last week's, my recollection of last week's conversation wasn't even me being like, you need to be Lemon over Concepcion.
0:05And I'll point out, Lemon had a very good week seven as well, obviously.
0:05He absolutely did. It was me challenging. I remember specific part of the conversation was you talking about Concepcion ahead of Lemon
0:05and me being like, how do you know that?
0:05Like me challenging your perception that Concepcion had already shown more than Lemon.
0:05And we broke that down a little bit where like Concepcion had like a 1.18 yards per out run through last week.
0:05And, and Lemon was way worse at like 0.65 or something.
0:05But I was basically like, they're both, they've both been like somewhat bad and we want them both to be meaningfully better.
0:05And like, I think those are within like error bars of each other.
0:05But anyway, that, that, that, that got perceived as me being down on Concepcion.
0:05I'm just sort of a little bit defensive of because I never intended to be down on Concepcion in a meaningful way.
0:05He's a guy that I love the profile of the prospect profile fits everything that I've always talked about.
0:05Liking a lot of production. You get the draft capital.
0:05He produces it at all the different ways before the catch point ball in hand, all of that stuff that you want
0:05to see, which Lemon does as well. And Lemon, I mean, I went back to their prospect profiles this week.
0:05I mean, lemons is just a little bit better.
0:05It's just the reality of it. His ball in hand is a little bit better.
0:05He did more at a higher a dot. What's fascinating is Concepcion has the higher a dot so far in his breakout
0:05last week, included some vertical stuff and Lemon still didn't.
0:05We still want to see Lemon actually get some intermediate opportunities in this offense.
0:05And hopefully he continues to anyway, though that's, that's a conversation that I, I wanted to circle back on.
0:05Cause I like them both. And I took Concepcion in this draft last night, Jacob ahead of Lemon, but I also ended up taking Lemon around later.
0:05I took Concepcion late six. I took Lemon late seven.
0:05Antonio Williams in between them. So we had, and I think he's almost in a row.
0:05Yeah. And I think he's a really interesting one in that group as well, for sure.
0:05I mean, he would be up there with me or with them for me, but some of the other rookies wouldn't be.
0:05I lemon lemon for me is, I thought was one of the steals of this draft at seven 11, which I mean, I took other guys before him.
0:05Part of the reason I took, like I took Jane Daniels in my pick before, cause we were doing his teams and
0:05I'd already taken four receivers through six rounds on that team.
0:05So I went, you know, a different direction. Um, but Concepcion was the last receiver that I drafted before taking.
0:05Lemon. I think Williams over lemon is justifiable, but I, I want to talk about lemon with you.
0:05Cause I want to get more of your thoughts on lemon because we were doing too much of playing them off each other.
0:05I think to really analyze them both, but similar thing here with flowers.
0:05I I've been very high on flowers as well.
0:05I write the field tippers, a per outrun article at the end of every season.
0:05He was one of the clearest, like highlighted players for me in January or February when I wrote this article where I
0:05was like, this is a guy who's per outrun profile has gotten better every year in each of the different elements.
0:05So he's, he's, he's added targets per outrun and he's added yards per target.
0:05He's continued to be more efficient per target while adding volume.
0:05And that's at, that's included this, this season now so far, like his targets per outrun is up over 30% now.
0:05And his yards per target is now up over like 11.
0:05Like it's absurd. He's been absolutely insane. And he's another one of these guys.
0:05It's really good before and after the catch point.
0:05I actually, we did a stealing bananas this weekend and I got a chance to talk with Siegel a little bit about
0:05Concepcion and he comped him as like a young version of flowers.
0:05These guys are all sort of in the same.
0:05That was a popular comp coming out too. And especially because Monken coached flowers in his rookie season and then inherits and then inherits conception.
0:05So, but part of his question was, can conception be what flowers has been down the field, especially have we seen enough of that yet?
0:05It's a fair, a fair question. But it's also, I mean, I mean, regardless, we're saying conception is a poor man version
0:05of what you just described over flowers is become one of the five best receivers in the league.
0:05He's a superstar. I'm a little bit bombed on flowers.
0:05Part of the reason I do come across a little pessimistic is I was optimistic about him all season.
0:05And when I talk about this, like offensive volume perspective, it was me.
0:05I did this a little bit with my rankings too.
0:05It was me getting a little bit too projections based in my thinking.
0:05And I got a little bit too high on some other guys that went in that range, notably Garrett Wilson.
0:05And a big part of that was just like, again, this projections based thinking where it's like Garrett Wilson's office is going to throw away more.
0:05He's got Gino Smith. And if you go look at his target rates, like Garrett Wilson's had a bunch of seasons with like 140, 150, 160 targets already.
0:05And Zay flowers career high before this year was like one 15.
0:05I mean, it's, that's a lot of targets. It's a big gap.
0:05We, we discussed this on our five K draft on ship chasing.
0:05Uh, me and Leonie were joined, uh, Pat and Pete, obviously you do ship chasing now and I don't, but that's a
0:05league that we, I've done with those guys for, for years.
0:05And, um, Pat wanted to take Zay flowers and, and me and Leonie were both kind of more on Garrett Wilson.
0:05We talked about it a little bit pre draft, but I mentioned those numbers during that draft.
0:05Zay flowers career high was 118 targets last year.
0:05And he played all 17 games and like the gap in targets, the gap in raw targets relative to these really exciting per route numbers.
0:05And I just remember Pat being like, yeah, that's a pretty, that's a lot of targets.
0:05That's a pretty big gap of targets. Like he had to kind of acknowledge that even as he was the one wanting us to take flowers.
0:05And we obviously should have taken flowers. Like I wish I'd taken flowers over Garrett Wilson everywhere.
0:05Right. But I do have some flowers. I had a lot of picks at the end of the first round and we
0:05have some teams where we took flowers and Garrett Wilson, Sean and I, his best team has was a, was a pick from the one 12.
0:05That was a, a Trey McBride, Ken Walker. And then the three, four turn was Garrett Wilson and Zay flower.
0:05So that's a fun, a fun team that we have.
0:05Anyway, I'm saying all that to say that I am very high on flowers and I agree with everything that you said.
0:05I'm kind of challenging you on it because I'm challenging my own miss and kind of understanding it and thinking through it.
0:05And I want to hear your perspective on it.
0:05And I'm just now describing my own thought process.
0:05I agree with everything you said. I think you're right.
0:05And I think, and I was, as you were talking through it and the degree to which you can concentrate the office,
0:05even as I kicked it to you, I said a lot because I was thinking through it.
0:05I'm sure a lot of listeners were like, why don't you let Jacob talk?
0:05But I was thinking through it out loud as well.
0:05But I think it's a fascinating one. Cause it's a guy that I've been very, very high on.
0:05And it's not that I, I even counted as a miss.
0:05I had him as a target. I'm almost certain.
0:05And I drafted him in a bunch of spots, but I wish I had him as like a, a priority target in
0:05every league from, and I could have gotten there with how much I face on, pay attention to the per out run
0:05stuff and was super high on him as early as, you know, my first off season work last year on this past off season.
0:05Anyway, enough recounting of all of that. The reason I wanted to lay all that out to say is I, I agree with everything you said.
0:05I don't have anything to add to it other than as you were talking through it and you were saying, yeah, I
0:05mean, very much like the JSN offense, uh, Seahawks offense, Zay flowers has 38% of his team's receiving yards this year.
0:05And he didn't play one of the games and he left another game.
0:05And he played any, and he played, he left one game at half.
0:05He didn't play one game. And then he played like 20 snaps in another game where he was being load managed in that personal game.
0:06It's crazy. 38% is massive. The stat I kept giving on JSN's last year was that at 43 or 44%, he was
0:06the highest rate of his team's per, uh, receiving yardage, uh, market share of receiving yardage since, uh, Josh Gordon season.
0:06And I believe that's just the games good. Josh Gordon played, or maybe it's not.
0:06I can't remember how absurd Josh Gordon season was, but, um, which was 2013, but what's that?
0:06I said, pretty absurd. His 2013, he only played like 14 games, but he's still like absolutely destroyed.
0:06He has 1600 yards or whatever. Anyway. Yeah. A lot, a lot of thoughts on, on flowers for me that are not saying a lot.
0:06And I'm, I'm just filibustering and wasting time. And I apologize to you and the listeners, but I think what you said about flowers is very fair.
0:06The fact that he has 38% of the, of the yardage, just raw yardage indicates that he's probably, I don't know how
0:06little receiving yards they had when Zay flowers, not on the field, but that the point is it, it emphasizes the point
0:06you were making, which is that when Zay flowers, not on the field, they don't have a passing game, even like they don't have other guys.
0:06And when he is on the field, he's getting all this production.
0:06I think if you had the splits of just plays, when he's on the field, his rate of, you know, his team's
0:06receiving yardage is probably tops in the league, even ahead of Jason, arguably.
0:06Um, cause Jason's right in that same range in the mid forties.
0:06I think flowers, just when you look at just when he's on the field, maybe over 50% of his team's receiving yardage, or maybe approaching that.
0:06Cause again, probably, I mean, probably is, I don't have that exact number, but, um, great take.
0:06I, where I wanted to ask you to go from this further is Almanro went above him.
0:06Yeah. Would you take him over Almanro? I want to go name by name.
0:06Yeah. Puka went two picks before him. Would you take him over Puka?
0:06So no, you took Puka and then you traded up to get flowers.
0:06I took lamb right before Puka. Would you take him over lamb?
0:06No. Okay. Cause I, I had lamb as my wide receiver too.
0:06And I think I stand by that. And I agree with you on Puka, but, uh, our buddy, Jacob Gibbs took chase
0:06as the wide receiver too at one Oh five.
0:06Would you take flowers over chase? Yes. Yeah. I think that's where, I think I might do it.
0:06I had it. I had it. Uh, so are my, my, I was at four and I took Bijon.
0:06So I didn't take a receiver, but I was thinking about receivers obviously.
0:06And I was like, I think if I take a receiver, it would be Puka.
0:06But I, the three that I was thinking about most were Puka, lamb, and flowers.
0:06And I think if I was to do it, if I was, I mean, if I was to tear them out, if
0:06I was doing rest of season rankings right now, I would be JSN one, he'd be in a tier of his own, I think.
0:06And then I would be Puka, lamb, flowers, St.
0:06Brown chase in that order. And all in the same tier.
0:06I would have chase over St. I don't know if I would put neighbors in that tier or not.
0:06You don't even know if you'd have neighbors in that tier.
0:06So that I agree. I think I would have neighbors heading off the next tier, but about top of the next tier.
0:06So I agree with basically everything you said. I would have chase ahead of St.
0:06Brown. I would have chase. Maybe I should too.
0:06Tricky with flowers. It would be tough for me.
0:06Maybe ahead of flowers too. Higgins has been awesome.
0:06Chase has been hurt too, a little bit and banged up and not always out.
0:06But Jamar Chase is so freaking good, dude. When he gets going, he's going to get going, I think in a big way.
0:06And then neighbors to me would be in that tier.
0:06I mean, my only logic on the chase thing would be like, I'm 98% sure that Jamar Chase is still excellent.
0:06I guess like if I'm just breaking ties between wide receivers, all of whom I think are all pro level talents, I
0:06guess I'm just going to take like the heuristic of like, I'll just take the ones who've been scoring the most points.
0:06Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great call.
0:06We talked about that recently with some of the, yeah, it's a year.
0:06It's your, it's, it's, yeah, it's very much something.
0:06I made a great, to me. Yeah. I made a great case that you should just take Joe Johnson based on the points that he's been scoring.
0:06And then look how, look how well that's. You curse that guy.
0:06Joe Johnson should be said to you like, I don't know, like hate mail or something.
0:06That's another one where, I mean, I've been watching what's been happening and I'm just like, God, I, I sound like an idiot and it's, it's fair.
0:06I do. And it's an L. I don't even know if this happened before or after we did our argument.
0:06I really don't, but their left tackle, Kelvin banks going down hurt him big time because I, it's made them even more
0:06reliant on like having to keep tight ends into block and stuff to help chip for them.
0:06But the other thing is the part of the point I was making was there was other context in addition to that,
0:06which is how run heavy they've gone because of Tyler shucks broken hand.
0:06And like, he's going to have some bad games while that happens.
0:06But then I was like, he may have some decent games going forward.
0:06One of the fascinating things late in this game is he got two targets in comeback mode, both batted down at the line of scrimmage, like very late.
0:06And I'm like, man, just catch some passes so I can have some fodder to talk to Jacob about next week.
0:06Both of them got batted down. And then the Steelers got the ball back and ran the entire game out.
0:06And like the saints committed a penalty on their field goal.
0:06And they didn't even get the last minute. And I'm like, that's when Juwan Johnson is going to be on the field
0:06and catching passes is in this final minute. He's going to catch all these underneath balls.
0:06He could have caught like five balls at the end of that game.
0:06They didn't get a last drive. And the drive before the two targets he got, that would have both been short catches,
0:06got batted at the line of scrimmage. So we're just going to pretend like he had five catches last week, all in garbage time.
0:06And it wasn't quite, man, I'm not happy about this.
0:06That's like, that's like nothing. I was stuck in a no win situation of having to argue against the guy that I
0:06put myself in, but I had to argue against the player that I drafted a lot of.
0:06And then now it's like, I get to win, but I'm like sitting here like Thanos, like looking over a world of dead basketball teams.
0:06What did it cost me? Everything. Another miss for me.
0:06Another L definite clear L that I will take.
0:06Flowers was an interesting one. Then, then I took Bowers at one 11.
0:06This is not like a tight end premium, but certainly, I mean, I think, so there's a good question.
0:06You took flowers over Bowers. Do you stand by that?
0:06I think Bowers arguably should have went like one Oh five.
0:06Even in non tight end premium, I mean, that's fair.
0:06I get, I think I, I think I have Bowers ranked exactly where he went.
0:06Interesting. So to, to give some context of like who took some of these early picks, I had the third pick.
0:06I took Ken Walker three. I thought it could have gone a lot of different ways at three, but I do still
0:06think Ken Walker's in a, in a really nice spot and kind of has to be their whole offense.
0:06Lamb would have been the other pick for me.
0:06And I ended up getting him at seven because B John chase McCaffrey went, who are all, I think very justifiable picks.
0:06I'm not down on any of them, but I think lamb and like the lamb chase conversation.
0:06I think chase is probably slightly better than lamb.
0:06I do think the situation is, is slightly better with the Cowboys than the bangles from a team perspective.
0:06And then also just most meaningfully T Higgins is doing the thing that Pickens did last year that these number twos do sometimes.
0:06And Pickens is not, he's not like super engaged right now with the offense or they're like taking him out on run blocking snaps.
0:06Cause he won't block. There's some things going on with Pickens.
0:06I ended up getting Pickens at four Oh two in this draft and I took him, but like, there's a reason Higgins
0:06went higher in this draft, you know, with this group of people.
0:06Um, but lamb, I think has a potential to more meaningfully dominate his, his pass game going forward.
0:06And he looks awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So anyway, I got lamb at seven, but I think I, yeah, I had, I had Walker three.
0:06I w I think I would take lamb four and I think Bowers could arguably be right there with B.
0:06John McCaffrey Puka would have been the other receiver for me as we just discussed, um, in like the top five conversation, not so much chase.
0:06I think powers is right there for me because he's playing wide receiver and he's a stud.
0:06I mean, what are the concerns? I guess the concerns Fernando Mendoza is maybe a concern.
0:06I mean, it's not, I don't really have any concerns with powers.
0:06I think it's more just like, I mean, you look at how the tight ends distributed throughout this draft and obviously, you
0:06know, you go into a, a different hypothetical draft.
0:06Maybe they don't fall this way, but like, I, I, it's, it's one thing to feel great about the running backs, the
0:06receivers going in like rounds four through 10 in August when you're full of hope and optimism, but like, then you get to mid season.
0:06And it's like a lot of the profiles that had upside that got hurt or didn't happen for them or like for various reasons, it's just not happening.
0:06And so pretty much all of the guys you actually want to put in your lineups right now are gone by like round four.
0:06Um, and with that in mind, I'm just like, kind of focus more on taking care of the running back and receiver.
0:06And so why I have Bowers in the elite tier, but I, I would put him at behind the elite.
0:06Cause I mean, I still think that all of the guys who went ahead of him are going to score more raw points than him.
0:06And I don't think it's a positional scarcity advantage is actually providing me that much.
0:06Okay. The second part of that, I disagree with the first part of it.
0:06I think is look at where Tyler Warren went in this draft.
0:06He's going to score more points than the receivers and running backs who are in that round.
0:06Bowers. I don't think it's going to score more points than flowers and St.
0:06Brown and Puka. So the, the first part of what you said that Bowers is going to outright score less than them,
0:06I think is, is interesting and arguably fair. He's averaging 19.5, uh, PPR points per game right now.
0:06McBride's at 18.6. Likely's at 15.8. I think we all have some concerns about likely he wound up going in the seventh round in this.
0:06Yeah. Uh, those guys, I think what's that. I said, he's going to, he's going to regress, but I think likely he's
0:06going to outscore a lot of the dudes who went around.
0:06He should have just been drafted earlier, but like, so setting aside, likely I'm going through the scoring distribution.
0:06Bowers at 19.5. Likely's at 15.8. Kittle's at 15.2.
0:06Warren's at 14.0. You'd probably argue he could score more.
0:06Laporta's 13.2. Now you're all the way down to 11.9 by the tight end eight, which is Mike is sicky, which is
0:06mostly touchdowns, but like there's some, there's some guys in there and they're like 12 to 15 range.
0:06Likely's at 15.8. Um, there's like the 10th tight end is at like 11 points per game.
0:06Like there's, and then a lot of these guys have missed time as well.
0:06Like tight ends missed time. I don't think it's as replaceable as it feels.
0:06I get like, even some of the guys that were hitting early, like Dalton Kincaid immediately stopped scoring.
0:06He's at 10.1 points per game. And I'm not saying that like Warren's not going to score more than some of the receivers are running backs around him.
0:06Like clearly, clearly. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's the way to think about it, I guess is the way that I would go with it.
0:06Cause I was just going to say like, so Bowers at 19.5.
0:06Jason's in an interior of his own. He's at 27.9.
0:06Naku is at 22.7. He's missed a couple of games to lamb at 21.9.
0:06Alman raw, 21.4. Zays at 20.4. And then you're at Christian Watson was at 18.5, but like Bowers is a point to
0:06two points behind Alman Ron Zay 2.4 behind lamb.
0:06He's a little bit behind these guys, certainly, but also these are the receivers that are like meaningfully hitting you.
0:06You can Jamar chase went in the first round.
0:06He's scoring 16.2. So like how much, like there's, there's a touchdown point here as well.
0:06Like Alman raw scored five, lamb scored six, Barris has scored three.
0:06Like, but Bowers in a bad offense. There's a lot of ways you could talk about this, et cetera, et cetera.
0:06The raw points point is interesting. And I think it's fair, but like Bijon's at 20.8.
0:06McCaffrey's at 20.9. Some of the running backs that went earlier, Ken Walker's all the way up at 24.6.
0:06It's part of the reason I took him. He's like, he's the guy scoring a lot of points, but this, this conversation
0:06of like, is he going to, are those guys going to meaningfully score more than Bowers?
0:06Just raw is an interesting conversation. Cause I do think there's going to be meaningful.
0:06Like, I mean, when I was on the clock back at eight, if people want to watch the show, I had said
0:06like, I was like, I think I'm in a shitty spot here because I have four guys that I think are a tier ahead of 12.
0:06And I was like, I don't think any of them are going to come back to me.
0:06And that's why I ended up doing the kind of comical trade-off.
0:06And Bowers was one of those four. Like I felt like he, like, so when I was on the clock and I
0:06picked Puka there, but I felt like any of Puka, St.
0:06Brown, Flowers, or Bowers would have been completely defensible picks at eight.
0:06I felt like that was a clear four. So like, I think Bowers belongs with these guys.
0:06I'm just like kind of similar how, you know, we just talked about the ranking wide receivers and like, I ended up
0:06putting chase at the end, but like, obviously it wouldn't surprise me if chase outscored any of the receivers that I just ranked ahead of him.
0:06They wouldn't know. It wouldn't surprise me if Bowers outscored multiple of these guys, but like, if I'm, if I'm just taking my best guess.
0:06Yeah. I think it's a fair point. Rank him where I think he's going to score in raw points.
0:06And so the other guys are like, guys, I think we'll score more than him.
0:06I'm obviously not sure. That's the question I want to get at.
0:06Cause that that's where I was. The reason I'm listing all these points is not to refute your take that the guys
0:06ahead of him could score more raw points. Cause I think that's a very fair take.
0:06What I want to get at is the tight end replaceability aspect of this that you're talking about.
0:06Cause to me, if you tell me I can get a guy that's scoring similar to all those guys, but I can
0:06put them in my tight end slot. That makes him more valuable.
0:06The way that you just described it to me was that like, that's almost makes him less valuable.
0:06Cause you were like, I want to fill running back receiver.
0:06My, my argument is, and it kind of has been like, I think you should, I think you should draft tight ends
0:06on the basis of, of their raw points. And I think that this aligns with a lot of the war stuff.
0:06Like the, like, I mean, look at this draft.
0:06This is obviously a sample of one random draft and one retort could be, we all drafted tight ends and efficiently, but
0:06like you look at level it on the port on round five, craft and likely in round seven, can Kate and war around eight.
0:06I would wager that the tight ends that we took in each of those, uh, rounds five through eight will be competing
0:06to be the highest scoring players in their round.
0:06Like if I was to just rank out median projection, rest of season, all the players that went around five, round seven,
0:06around eight, I didn't get the tight ends. Like I haven't done it off the top of my head, but I think
0:06the tight ends would rank at or near the top in each of those rounds.
0:06So I don't think that there is a massive opportunity cost in terms of points where like, I'm going to have to,
0:06I'm going to have to take some tight end who scores less than a receiver or running back later.
0:06If I pass on Bowers, I think I'm actually getting a median projection advantage later in the draft by investing in tight
0:06end to the point that like one of my teams, I took McBride here at the two Oh three.
0:06And then I got back up in the eight and I was like, man, like I don't, I don't even want any
0:06of these running backs receivers, but Tyler was still there.
0:06I'm just going to flex them. Well, I think we, I started the show by saying, I think we were collectively as
0:06analysts, maybe undervaluing the onesies a little bit. That's a different take, but whatever.
0:06I, the other thing I would say is at least in my perception, when it comes to actually managing rosters, like the,
0:06the places where I took Bowers in non tight end premium in like the second round, it's so much easier to manage
0:06those rosters than my teams where I'm trying to navigate.
0:06Like I have a team in non tight end premium where I have like Dalton Kinkade and I had Dalton Schultz for
0:06a while and I'm, I'm waiting on Ken and Sadiq.
0:06And I think I added Terrence Ferguson and I've been like rotating those things.
0:06I think I picked up TJ Hawkinson and trying to figure out.
0:06So that the point about like the projection thing or like playing the tight ends, all those tight ends I just named,
0:06I've started them at the wrong times and taken some really low floors.
0:06Meanwhile, on my Bowers teams, like I have a lot of like Michael Wilson at flex.
0:06I have a lot of like guys, like wide receivers that I really want to play.
0:06So like, I guess at this point where some of the receivers that we were like right on went a lot higher
0:06in this draft, it doesn't really play that way from a peer perception, a projection point.
0:06So I understand that. But like when it comes to actually like building my teams, when I've hit on a Bowers scoring
0:06at the level he is on some of my builds, and then I have like a golden or a Michael Wilson as a round eight wide receiver.
0:06Those teams are so easy for me to manage in my actual, I have these teams.
0:06That's why it's hard for me. It's like, it's the actual like experience.
0:06I think it's a different discussion talking about it from a preseason perspective versus the mid season perspective, because I think preseason.
0:06Well, you said you should draft the tight ends based on their scoring level.
0:06And I think that's an interesting thought. Well, I mean, that's, that's what like a lot of the aggregate data would tell you.
0:07And I've, I think in like best ball and stuff that that's the right way to play it.
0:07I've already, I mean, I didn't redraft that you should be a little bit more.
0:07Yeah. You mentioned the war thing. I just want to cut it and say, I personally as an analyst and I've written
0:07about it before, think the war stuff is wrong.
0:07And, and like, I'm just not a fan. I don't believe in it.
0:07I think it's looking at end of season points in a lot of the ways that I just talked about with like the different tight ends.
0:07Like it's going to give Kincaid some value of some scoring level and not account for the weekly variants inherent in like,
0:07Oh, then you started him and then he ended up not scoring.
0:07And it's, it's not the way that I think that, that fantasy is actually played on a weekly level throughout a season.
0:07And then I think it's, it's too, it's descriptive painted as predictive.
0:07And I, I, I've personally never liked it. I could get into a really long conversation with someone about that, but that's,
0:07I, my mind is misapplying the air to the specific.
0:07I've written about that concept before. That would be my counter to that.
0:07Cause you mentioned it twice. I just wanted to say, no, that's totally fair.
0:07I mean, I, I feel like the, like from a best ball perspective.
0:07Also, I think that that's probably the right way to do it is more or less to just play it.
0:07I can't know wide receiver. Or, and I think actually the best ball community has gone too far where they're actually drafting
0:07tight ends that are like, like much later than they project, like where tight ends are just out projecting guys.
0:07From a redraft perspective, the way that I've typically framed my argument around early tight ends is like, if you want to
0:07draft them ahead of where you're projecting to score as a median, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a confidence play.
0:07Like, I think you're kind of saying like, I think I'm going to, at least admit, I'm curious to see if you
0:07agree or disagree with this framing, but the way that I've put it is, I think if you take a Bowers or
0:07McBride or whoever, the tight, early tight end is that year, you're, I think betting on yourself that you are going to
0:07out hit the market in the middle rounds at running back and at wide receiver or on the waiver wire.
0:07Because I think that if you can create enough hits when there's a lot of uncertainty preseason, then the scenario that you're
0:07painting about how, okay, well, I have Matthew golden who was this round eight pick, whatever he's sitting on my bench.
0:07So he's going to be an every week starter for me.
0:07Then that adding that elite tight end, which is something that you really can't find elsewhere, gives you a chance to build that super team.
0:07But like on the aggregate, you know, there's a lot of round four and five and six and seven and eight running
0:07backs, wide receivers who are virtually unsartable. I mean, you could have drafted a bunch of crappy ones that have basically nobody to start.
0:07Or, I mean, you talked about scenarios where you're, you have teams without Bowers and you're like, I'm starting Pat Firemuth this week.
0:07And then he scores four. The next week he's on my bench scoring 20 and TJ Hawkinson's in my last quarter.
0:07I mean, you can kind of say the same thing where it's like, well, you know, the week that I started Jameson
0:07Williams, he scored four, but then I put him on my bench and he scored 20.
0:07And I put, I don't know, whoever, Michael Wilson.
0:07And he've got eight, like this, this stuff can happen to the other positions too.
0:07So I tend to be like willing to bet on myself on the preseason where I, I tend to draft Bowers out of consensus.
0:07I mean, this is where he's going here at the one, two turn is even higher than he was going.
0:07It's even higher than I ranked. Which is way higher than his ADP preseason.
0:07I think that's warranted. He's had a really great season, but I do think from a mid season perspective, especially where there's
0:07probably less edge to be found because we have so much more information that the, that your ability to draft, like, let's look at this Bowers team, right?
0:07Like your ability to draft that super team with Bowers in round one, like your ability to draft a super team period
0:07is strength is frankly way diminished for drafting in week seven, because we know so much more information.
0:07Like, you know, that like, look at your, looking at your team here.
0:07I mean, it looks like a totally, totally solid team.
0:07And you have Pickens, you have Metcalf, nice floor pick.
0:07And then you've added two rookie bets in lemon in Boston.
0:07But like, you know, what you don't have is like Matthew golden in round eight, who is now a guy that we took in round three.
0:07Right. Well, lemon could be that it's a pop.
0:07And he could be that he could be that.
0:07He could be that. I think it's, that's why I dropped that team that way now than when you're drafting guys before
0:07week one, but he could be that. And I think it's a great.
0:07In fairness, that scenario, the, for people who are just listening to an audio, I took Bowers.
0:07I took James cook at two Oh two, which I don't really necessarily love.
0:07I kind of talked about that a little later.
0:07People can listen to the CBS show. I took Jalen Warren in the third, I took scataboo in the fifth.
0:07So I took three running backs in the first five rounds and Bowers.
0:07So it's like a flex running back team that, um, has Pickens, Metcalf, lemon Boston, even, even with everything you're saying about, we know more now.
0:07I mean, even this is a start three wide receiver team, which I think we were all kind of playing it that way.
0:07I'm flexing those. I'm, this is like a hyper fragile running back build.
0:07Like I'm, I'm playing three stud running backs every week in this, but I think this team would be really good with, with Pickens and Metcalf.
0:07It like for a mid season draft with Pickens and Metcalf and two of the receiver slots, lemon in Boston.
0:07And then obviously I would continue to take a lot of wide receiver swings.
0:07Like Jacoby lane didn't get drafted in this. I would take him on this team if I could, or, you know, additional
0:07other, and there's other wide receivers that are like a dunes.
0:07They ended up going later than this, but there's other guys that are running routes that could be more startable.
0:07if anyone's hearing this team and is concerned about like the floor element of it, like Xavier worthy didn't get picked.
0:07Like I could take safety worthy on this team.
0:07And at least, I mean, I've had to play him on other teams.
0:07Like I would, I'd start him. He's if he's my weakest starting lineup spot, it's not the other world, but, but my
0:07point that much better starting Xavier worthy, like as a flex, then you do starting insert waiver tight end as a flex or as a tight end.
0:07That's, that's the question. And that's, and so this isn't even a, really a conversation of like Bowers or, and, and the
0:07point you made about like the different wide receivers can be highly volatile.
0:07That's kind of why I brought up worthy as well.
0:07Cause they can be, and I agree with that point.
0:07I just, I think it's a very interesting philosophical discussion about filling that tight end spot with this type of player.
0:07You mentioned when you, when you talked about Bowers, you know, he went higher than where you had him ranked preseason.
0:07You think that's fair. He's been scoring. It's not just that he's been scoring.
0:07I said, he's been used basically as a wide receiver.
0:07And when you get that type of involvement from a talent like his and a tight end, like designation for fantasy purposes.
0:07And I think this goes for McBride too. I think McBride deserves to go in this range too, even though he's not
0:07playing wide receiver, but the type of involvement for him is also massive.
0:07I just, I think it's worth more that you get to fill it at tight end than just drafting them at the point level.
0:07But that I, I wanted to get your take on that.
0:07I was genuinely asking it. I didn't have like a strong opinion on it.
0:07Oh, well, I guess I do have a strong opinion on it, but I, I, I thought it was interesting that that was your take.
0:07And I, yeah, I think it's a fair, a fair take as well.
0:07I, I mean, I'll probably consider that heuristic going forward that I'd never really probably considered that we should just draft tight
0:07ends at the level that they score points. I think there's a fair point to that, but I, I think for me,
0:07it's still, it's still a positional advantage. I think I do think it's the point you made about insert waiver tight end is an interesting one.
0:07It's also interesting from the perspective of like where the league is going with the more multi-tight end sets and stuff.
0:07And there's just been better waiver tight ends available in a lot of these leagues.
0:07I do have leagues where I've been, I talked about that team where I have Kincaid and Schultz.
0:07I ended up cutting Schultz and I added Terrence Ferguson and I've added Sadiq.
0:07And I'm like, I've been shuffling tight end. I think I added Hawkinson.
0:07If I'm remembering the team, right. And it's like, shouldn't be able to do all that.
0:07You can add Chico Conquo right now. And some of these things I was going to bring up.
0:07Yeah. I think that now there's ways this goes wrong because obviously, you know, whenever we're talking about somewhat marginal talents, even,
0:07you know, best laid plans sometimes don't come to pass.
0:07Like I remember, you know, there was a week where Dalton Schultz was supposed to smash against the Colts and he had like two catches.
0:07Right. So it's like, it's not like it's not like everything is completely predictable, but I do think that there is some
0:07thing to the idea of like, you can stream a workable tight end.
0:07And now you can do this in receiver running back too.
0:07Like, obviously you can, but like, I do think you can do this thing in tight end where it's not even just one guy.
0:07It can be in waves, right. It could be like, you know, Juwan and Schultz were guys early in the season that were really hitting.
0:07And then Hawkinson had that, like, there was a point where Jefferson was out.
0:07And then I think, you know, right now it's like, you could have a tight end room of like, you could have gotten like Higby off of waivers.
0:07And he had a little run there. And I think shake is probably the guy right now who's going to be a guy.
0:07His run ended quickly. And Hawkinson's run ended quickly.
0:07And you can say the same thing about Jeremy Bernard.
0:07And I mean, Ollie Gordon, like when they happen at the other positions, they become more sustainable parts of the offense.
0:07It feels like to me, tight ends a tough one to like pick up a guy and have him be a full season hit.
0:07That's I super tough. Yeah. Unless you get like the breakout, like the fan and you know, last.
0:07Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, he was like drafted in a lot of, I mean, at least in my leagues, I was
0:07rostering him from the beginning of the season. And most of them, he wasn't really a pickup for me.
0:07I had a ton of him, but it was mostly off waivers.
0:07Like, I mean, excuse me off late round draft picks.
0:07Anyway, I very interesting conversation in home leagues, I think was like really tiny.
0:07I think it was like, he was drafted in Ben Gretz's home leagues.
0:07Yeah. I did draft him in my home. And I was like, this is awesome.
0:07He was in FFPC stuff. He was like a hundred percent drafted for sure.
0:07Yeah. Yeah. But FFPC stuff. It'd be tight end premium.
0:07And I would take Brock Bowers. Oh, yeah. He'd be super high.
0:07Three, three. Cause he's still, cause you're talking about scoring.
0:07Love at that point. He's scoring. Yeah. Even if you apply the exact same heuristic that I did, well, his, he gets an extra 0.5.
0:07So he scores more. I, I, I guess part of three, right.
0:07In FFPC. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.
0:07Yeah. Probably three. He'd be top three. Yeah. He'd be, he'd be top three.
0:07And yeah, maybe two was what I was getting.
0:07That's why I made a little bit of a face there.
0:07It was like, I, yeah. Be like, no, I think you have to take JSN over him still, but man, yeah, it'd
0:07be hard to figure out part of, part of it for me is I think, I guess I think Bowers is going
0:07to like, not just continue scoring, but, but score more.
0:07And maybe that's too optimistic as well, but he's been, he's been good, but he's also been a little bit quiet since that first game back.
0:07And it's like, nothing's changed. He's still running all the routes.
0:07He's still like the clear centerpiece of the past game.
0:07I think they're getting Trey Tucker going in a way that like only unleashes Brock Bowers more, you know?
0:07Like, so the last two weeks he's done 11 and 13.3 PPR points, which are like four games.
0:07He's had 70 yards in his floor games. Like that's what, yeah, that's what like JSN was doing last year.
0:07JSN's floor games were more like 90 yards, but it's like, that's, it's weird that when he's not even like having a
0:07good game, he's still getting you 70 yards. There's really good receivers have down games like Almond, Ron Puka and these guys.
0:07Like he's not, he's in the world. Yeah. And then the, the, the good games have been, you know, 110 yards in a TD.
0:07Maybe it's an element of like, he doesn't have the same ability to have the 30, 40 yard plays.
0:07And then you get the one 50 yard games and the 200 yard games.
0:07Cause he had a 10 catch, 116 yard game.
0:07He had an eight catch 110. Zay flowers is like, yeah, I can take six catches for 250 yards.
0:07So I'll just go do that. Right. He probably can't have two.
0:07He, I mean, he can, but he, he would be less likely to have a 200 yard game, but I mean, Almond
0:07Ross, not that likely to have a 200 yard game.
0:07So, but even he, like his aid out was a little higher last week.
0:07He can still get going a little bit more vertically, probably the Bowers.
0:07Maybe that, that is part of where the scoring anyway, fascinating conversation.
0:07I appreciate your perspective on it. I was genuinely asking, I want to, I want to know about Jacobs.
0:07We've got to talk about Josh Jacobs. He ends up going 401 here.
0:07Uh, Ryan, he took him there and I can't remember exactly how it went.
0:07I feel like I kind of had a negative sentiment on it.
0:07I think Ryan was saying that maybe he could have gone quite a bit higher.
0:07And I thought it was fair, but as we talked through it, like, I don't know.
0:07I mean, Jacobs played a lot. He scored 13 and 15 touchdowns with the, with this Packers in his two seasons with them.
0:07He didn't have a TD in this first game rushing.
0:07That's sorry. Rushing TDs. He didn't have a TD rushing in this first game, but he's probably going to get inside carries.
0:07He did play. They still threw the ball a lot and he did play a lot in the passing game and he
0:07caught a touchdown and he looked pretty solid on it.
0:07He had five catches for 55 yards in a TD.
0:07So we had a strong first game. And then you go look at, yeah, 28 rushing TDs the last couple of years.
0:07You know, I was talking about the high value touches, the receptions and the, and the goal line work.
0:07Like you're talking about a lot of that probably for Josh Jacobs.
0:07Yeah. If what we saw and the fact that like, they still threw the ball to me, isn't actually a problem.
0:07I think it's a better version of the offense for Jacobs.
0:07If they're throwing a ton, cause he'll catch some of the short stuff.
0:07Yeah. He's, he's never gotten that many rushing yards because he's not that efficient.
0:07It's like his, right. His like, he, he accumulates a rushing volume floor, but his ceiling is primarily come through touchdowns.
0:07And so like, to me, it's like it, whether he rushes for 60 yards a game or 40 yards, a game is mostly immaterial.
0:07As long as he has the goal line rushing role.
0:07And if you can add some receptions in exchange for rushing yards, that's a win.
0:07So he went for a one. I took Jalen Warren three 11.
0:07You took chase Brown three 10 and Bucky Irving three Oh eight.
0:07I would still take Warren over him. Cause Warren's been really good, but maybe that's wrong.
0:07I just, I do have some concerns about Jacobs health.
0:07I was going to ask you about Warren. And then I was going to say on, cause I'm sure you would still take your guys ahead of him.
0:07But I would take, I maybe Jacobs over Bucky Brown ahead of them.
0:07I'm not sure. I I'm definitely taking Bucky over chase over.
0:07You love Bucky. You talk about Bucky. Like he's so much more than he is.
0:07He's another one that, and I mean, so much more than he is.
0:07Like, what are you, what do you mean? I know what is this?
0:07It's, he's been great. You think we're still, what, what's, what are we, what are we upset about?
0:07We're going to end up doing the same thing where we're going to end up doing the same thing where I'm going
0:07to wind up sounding very negative about a guy that, I mean, Bucky was the, like, what's to be negative about?
0:07So his rookie season was, uh, I, I had more Bucky than anybody and I love this dude.
0:07And we know that we've talked about him. What, what's to be negative about is the, um, the productivity of the other.
0:07So it's, it's the fact that he's, he's a non elite talent.
0:07He's insanely good at evasion and he's been very good at evasion and he's an efficient runner.
0:07He's not explosive. He got into space in one of those runs in that Cowboys game and showed that the long speed
0:07is just like, you're not going to get a long touchdown, but then he ended up scoring on the very next play.
0:07Cause he does find space very well. But other than that game against the Cowboys, where he had a 31.5 point PPR
0:07game, which I'm not saying you don't count. You count that all of the relevant games like around there, he had 7.8, 6.1, 6.9.
0:07They reflect this concern of like, when circumstances aren't great, he has a lower floor than what I feel like I hear
0:07when, when I hear you talk about him. Now he went, had a 24 point game again last week, but the receiving isn't phenomenal.
0:07It's seven catches week one at four week two.
0:07He's only had seven and five games since the rushing efficiency, is, is astronomical when it's high and he's awesome.
0:07And he's been getting the goal line work, which is awesome.
0:07It's four touchdowns in the last three weeks. I guess I don't think he's going to sustain really, really high touchdown rates,
0:07both because I don't think the offense is that good.
0:07And because of like usage and, well, I mean, I don't know if usage is fair because Tucker's now banged up, but,
0:07and like, I think Bucky's uniquely good at, he should have been getting more goal line work.
0:07Well, I mean, they still use Tucker in the goal line, like in the red zone.
0:07He gets last week, one touch a game, but he gets goal.
0:07Like they use them in short yardage. They literally did that like last week.
0:07If it's at the one, he will sometimes mix in, in a short yard situation, but not all the time.
0:07And, and, and I mean, not even most of the time, if we like zoom out to inside the five or inside
0:08the 10, like he, he has the potential to, but like we took, we took tootin at the 210, which I think
0:08is totally fair, but like Chris Rodriguez is like just as likely to take a random touchdown as, um, yeah, but as
0:08Sean Tucker is probably that, that, that's a really good comp.
0:08The, the, um, common on guys, way more likely than Swift.
0:08I know they have a bigger pie, but the, so I took tootin at 210.
0:08The way I would defend that is facial tootin already has multiple receiving TDs.
0:08I talked about this on the show last night, so I'm just repeating it for you.
0:08But two years ago under Liam Cohen, Rashad white had six receiving TDs tied for the league lead with Devon H and
0:08last year under Liam Cohen, Travis ETN had six receiving TDs.
0:08It was one off the league lead for running backs.
0:08Uh, Christian McAfee had seven last year, but like six receiving tees for running back is meaningful.
0:08Tootin had two very recently, uh, in that London, one of those London games, he almost had a third.
0:08He's going to have like six receiving TDs this year.
0:08Liam Cohen is way better in like dialing up the past game and that stuff.
0:08Then, um, well, like Bucky Irving, the gap in their receiving volume.
0:08And then the other part of it is the explosive run rate or like tootin's long speed is there.
0:08Like tootin's ability. I think Bucky Irving is a Bucky Irving is a better peer rusher.
0:08He's going to be better at like reading holes.
0:08Probably he's going to be more shifting the backfield and stuff.
0:08But when tootin actually gets a blocked up play and breaks it, he's going to be able to house it.
0:08And Bucky's not, Bucky has to be sustainably efficient.
0:08On a lot of runs. And that's why you do see some of the games where he's so low.
0:08Cause he's not an elite athlete. He didn't run a super fast 40 time.
0:08All the reasons everybody was out on him as a rookie.
0:08And I was like, these are overlooking that he's actually a really good player and had a lot of him.
0:08I felt like the market then massively overcorrected. We talked about Bucky on these terms before, and I know you disagree with
0:08them a little bit, but I don't think he's, I think he's an insanely good player, but I think there's limitations to how high he can score.
0:08And so in terms of, can you, can he score like as a top five running back?
0:08I don't know, but I don't think that any of, I mean, like where would you draw the line of guys who
0:08I think have a strong chance of scoring as a top five running back rest of the season?
0:08Like it's what, when we were just talking about Josh Jacobs, the ways that he could score the way, the ways that
0:08he could compile a lot of touchdowns, like 13 to 15 rushing TDs.
0:08Those last couple of years, plus some receiving work.
0:08And then Bucky's offense is way worse than Tuten's as the other.
0:08So like Tuten, you have more explosive playability, I think that's going to be fine.
0:08Like one, one thing that you haven't mentioned with Bucky yet is he played three games with a UDFA rookie at quarterback
0:08who has no interest in checking down. I mean, Bucky had, he averaged five targets per game with Baker.
0:08He had two this week, but they had 11 dropbacks.
0:08So I don't think that this week was like concerning from a target volume perspective.
0:08Very fair point. Very fair point. Bucky's always been like Baker's been good for running back receiving.
0:08That's fair. So like he, he was, and he had a really good receiving profile.
0:08He's always had a good receiving profile to me.
0:08He's averaged 15.7 points per game so far this year.
0:08I would wager. He beats that the rest of the season because he came into the season where they were, you know,
0:08there's concerns about this timeshare with Kenny Gainwell. Those concerns have lessened over time.
0:08Like two weeks ago, they played, what was the game?
0:08It was, who did, who did they play two weeks ago?
0:08It's like, Oh, I have it. I have it.
0:08They played Pittsburgh. But I think it was a close game.
0:08Yeah, it was, it was a close game. It was the overtime game.
0:08Yeah. And Irving played 61 of 73 snaps. He had like completely iced Gainwell from the rotation entirely.
0:08I think Tucker was out that game, but he's only been playing a few snaps.
0:08And then this week, Irving comes out, he gets 10 carries on the very first drive.
0:08And he has 17 carries and two targets by halftime.
0:08Like you're not going to give Irving. So he looks so good on that drive, but he only finished with 110 total
0:08yards in a game where they, they were the run heaviest.
0:08I think of any team since, but they gave him 24 carries.
0:08So like the split is like, well, he's not going to get 35 carries, but that's my point on the efficiency is
0:08you're talking about on the first drive. He had, I can't remember.
0:08I had it in signals. He ran for like 40 or 50 yards.
0:08And I was like, Oh man, this is how good buck he is.
0:08And I'm wrong on him. And then for him to finish where he finished actually, after that first drive in a game
0:08where they had an 18% pass rate, like you're talking about how dominant he is in the backfield, but barely played in the second half.
0:08I mean, they were up by like a million points.
0:08Yeah, but like other running backs do more. I mean, like even in games where their teams put people out way.
0:08That's, I think that's crazy. I think that's like bonkers to me.
0:08Like what other running backs do other running backs do.
0:08What do you mean? Other running backs do more.
0:08Like I, like other running backs, like just convert more long runs.
0:08You mean, or like get more carries. Like he, he got a ton of work.
0:08In a game where a team goes that run heavy and, and, and dominates and puts a team away.
0:08What I'm saying is they compile more while they put the team away.
0:08I can't use that argument of like, they put the team away.
0:08Um, and it was a massive blowout when like he's the running, like, and it was a, a total run heavy scheme and everything.
0:08He scored 24 PPR points with two touchdowns. He had, I mean, he had 110 yards.
0:08I'm saying that like the elite running backs, he took him at three Oh eight.
0:08I'm not saying he has to be compared to like Christian McCaffrey and B John and Ken Walker and those guys.
0:08But like when they hit the, what's relevant is three of the last five games.
0:08He's been under eight PPR points. This is one of the hits.
0:08The 31.5 for Dallas is, is, is a different conversation.
0:08And, and so now I'm kind of parsing in, in weird ways.
0:08But when I say other running backs do, do more, I'm saying like, when they hit, they go for 30, they go
0:08for 35, like in this type of game where you put a team away, where you're running backs, like if you're going
0:08to make the caveat that he didn't play in the second half because they dominated, I think other running backs do more
0:08in those types of game scripts and those types of game flows.
0:08They're just like more dominant in putting a team away in a run heavy game.
0:08Their 18% pass rate was the lowest since that, um, Bill's game Patriots, Bill's game where the Patriots threw three passes.
0:08It's absurd. I just like, it was a running back centric game and they used a lot of Kenny gain.
0:08Well, they used a lot of Kenny gain. because of the total volume, like they came out with the first drive.
0:08They gave Bucky 10 carries. They gave him 17 carries, two targets, the first half.
0:08I don't, I don't view this as like they were planning to split it.
0:08I think it was like, look at the raw number of touches that they were giving Bucky Irving.
0:08There's only so many raw touches you can give someone.
0:08So naturally gain. Well, I was going to play more in that spot than I think he otherwise would have.
0:08Like, that's why I brought up the previous week where it was like at 85, 15 split.
0:08And then this week they're running so much. I mean, we see this all the time where if teams have like an
0:08outlier number of rush attempts, the percentage of rush attempts is going to be allocated more evenly.
0:08And then, you know, eventually they got to the point where, okay, well, we can just put in Sean Tucker in the
0:08fourth quarter and we can move on from both these guys.
0:08Cause this game's in the bag. I, I don't know.
0:08I'm not, I'm not upset by a 24 care.
0:08He was the second highest scoring running back this week.
0:08Yeah. I mean, I, it's a weird point. That's why I'm kind of tiptoeing around it.
0:08But I mean, Josh Jacobs came back. He didn't play that many snaps.
0:08He rushed 11 times for 36 yards and he had 20.1 PPR points.
0:08Like, and I'm not saying Josh Jacobs is even the standard, but there's a reason like the high value touch stuff matters.
0:08And it does, it does impact scoring. Like Jameer Gibbs is a completely different conversation, but he's averaging 29 points per game.
0:08His good games are like 35 plus. The fact that he was the second highest running back score this week is just
0:08evident of the fact that the scoring was down this week, but.
0:08Okay. That's fine. I guess, I think you're holding two things against him.
0:08You're saying, you're saying, okay, on one hand, he should have scored more because it was run heavy game plan.
0:08Then you're saying, well, he doesn't get enough high value touches.
0:08Well, one of the reasons he doesn't get enough high value touches is because they dropped back 11 times in the game.
0:08So how many targets are you going to get as a running back?
0:08Like, yeah, you had two targets, which stinks, but like how many targets are you going to get out of 11 dropbacks?
0:08Like, I don't think they're going to drop. Okay.
0:08Like most weeks. A comparable was, I mean, so, I mean, I'm going to, cause I know like your counter is going
0:08to be like, these are the really best players, but when you take a running back in the third round, you like
0:08me, I would argue you now it's different in mid season drafts.
0:08Cause like, who's even really like fully available to you, but you want a guy who could score with the best players.
0:08And, and a comparable for me would be the first couple of games that Michael Penix was back.
0:08The, the Falcons dominated and they had really, really low passwords.
0:08They were the lowest pass rates, two weeks running the through week four and signals.
0:08I was writing that the two lowest pass rates for any team in any game all season were the Falcons, two games with Michael Penix.
0:08It was the week three and week four wins against the Packers and the saints.
0:08And they dominated both. And in that week four game, Brian Robinson had three rushing touchdowns.
0:08Cause like he, he came in and did everything.
0:08Bichon still had 28 points in that game, which is not that much different than the 24, but the game prior, the
0:08Packers game, he had 35, like, and he had 194 rushing yards and 145 rushing yards.
0:08He didn't finish with one Oh four in a run heavy game plan where his team blew a team out.
0:08Like he was the whole offense. He dominated. And that's what Bucky looked like on the first drive.
0:08That's what I was saying. Like in my notes, I was like, all right, I was wrong about Bucky.
0:08He can do this thing. He can take over a whole game.
0:08And then I go back and look at it at the end.
0:08And I'm like, that's all he finished with 104 yards.
0:08I mean, I, I hear your point. I do think there's a, like it's, it's nuanced, but I do think there's validity to mine too.
0:08It's not really one that I would meaningfully back off of.
0:08I, I don't think you're like way too high on him.
0:08I think he should be valued in this range.
0:08So it's kind of a weird point to be making, but like you were like podium picking him at three Oh eight.
0:08And like, Oh, I'm so happy. And like, I just, it's like, all right.
0:08Yeah. He's fine. He goes in this range. So like Chuba, Chuba Hubbard goes two picks before Bucky Irving.
0:08And like, he had, you know, recent game against Philly, like run heavy game plan.
0:08Right. He gets 19.10. He has 28 rushes for 120 as two targets, one catch.
0:08Like, I don't know. Like, is that, is that a meaningfully better pick?
0:08Like his, his, like his high this year is 25.9, which like is obviously a great game, but like his scoring distribution seems pretty reasonably similar.
0:08It is. And he's not a meaningfully better pick.
0:08And I would have them in the same tier.
0:08I didn't, I didn't take Chuba there. I think he's a good pick.
0:08I think the Jacob ceiling thing, we, we both forgot about Jeremiah love who ended up going in the fourth round.
0:08Yeah. Maybe you would say that love should go ahead of him.
0:08Cause we were thinking about like, like non-injured players.
0:08We're doing this kind of quickly. I think love is one of the guys that can score so dynamically that he could be way ahead of Irving.
0:08Yeah. Uh, I figured I'm saying, yeah, like I figured you would agree with that.
0:08I'm not trying to like, be like, Oh, what about love?
0:08So it's like some of it is like, okay, where was this guy taken?
0:08Where was that guy taken? It's going to be a little bit like different tier type stuff.
0:08And I'm not even saying that like Jacob should be a tier higher than Irving.
0:08But again, it was just this like the, the enthusiasm you had to take everything in the third round.
0:08It's like, to me, it's just like, that's where he goes.
0:08And he's a fine pick there. He's like in this tier with these guys.
0:08I'm not saying he's a bad pick, but I do think there is like a reason.
0:08I mean, there's probably a couple of receivers that I would have, would have preferred to take over him there.
0:08Um, I took Warren a couple of picks later.
0:08I think that's an interesting one. He's probably in the same tier as Irving.
0:08I think you could do the same thing as, um, you just did with Chuba where like, like Warren's top game is,
0:08it was higher scoring that game against the Colts.
0:08He had massive numbers and he only has the two TDs all year.
0:08And so I would probably argue you look at the yardage stuff.
0:08He's, I don't think he has like a meaningfully worse TD equity profile than Irving, but Irving has been hitting on some
0:08more touchdowns, but that probably Warren scoring profiles. He's better with some TDs that he hasn't been getting on more touchdowns.
0:08And so that's a positive regression point from Warren's favors.
0:08He has a fewer touchdowns, but I guess I would also say like Warren had a run where everything broke really well
0:08for him where he got to play without Rico Dowell for several weeks.
0:08And Bucky had to play with a backup quarterback for several weeks.
0:08I like, I don't know. I think you can kind of look at, look at that either way.
0:08I'm, I'm saying they're comparable for sure. I think I would, I would maybe lean Warren, but like I took Warren a few picks later.
0:08My point is like, Chase Brown was still on the board.
0:08You took Chase Brown later. Like all of these guys are similar to Bucky.
0:08And I guess I was just trying to get your feel.
0:08And it sounds like you just really liked Bucky.
0:08You, you described him as one of your favorite players.
0:08I don't think Bucky is in a different tier than these guys.
0:08Yeah. I mean, I think he was like, I definitely prefer him than the running backs that I took him ahead of,
0:08but I know I don't think he was like, I got, when I took him, I wasn't like, Oh, this guy should
0:08have gone in round two or whatever. It's more just like, I was just excited that, um, that one of my favorite
0:08players in the league was my top ranked player.
0:08And that I got the chance to pick him.
0:08Yeah. He's super fun. I love watching him play.
0:08I, and I think he belongs in this range and he deserves to be in this tier.
0:08And he's like, not even that. I didn't, I mean, it wasn't somebody that I thought we'd get into a huge discussion about.
0:08It wasn't like that notable to me. I just like when we start talking about Jacobs, I was curious, but you said
0:08you would definitely take Irving over Jacobs. And so that kind of sparked the conversation.
0:08I guess I would, I would take Irving over Jacobs, but I agree they're in the same tier.
0:08I would definitely have them in the same tier.
0:08Um, and I don't think Eric Jacobs is like, obviously is not more explosive.
0:08The reason I would take Jacobs more is I think he could potentially have all the touchdowns and, and even also potentially
0:08a better receiving profile, though you make a fair point about my Mayfield.
0:08And it's probably more, it's probably closer on the receiving side with those two.
0:08But I think there's a potential for Jacobs to catch a lot of balls if they keep throwing and they throw so
0:08vertically, like he was getting easy volume in the past game there.
0:08And they've been thrown to like Lloyd a lot.
0:08They were thrown to peer strong a little bit.
0:08And like those guys, I couldn't even catch. And like Jacobs is actually skilled in the past game.
0:08He's good at like, he's fluid at catching the ball and getting up field.
0:08He had a really nice play on the TD where he like broke, shook a tackle on the sideline and then got
0:08up the sideline for a walk-in TD. It's like, he's not super athletic.
0:08It's a little, I compared it to Alvin Kamara who I've been, you know, readers of stealing signals.
0:08No, I've been basically being like, this guy can't play anymore, but Alvin Kamara has contact balance and he's been able to
0:08catch balls in space and like make that work a little bit.
0:08But what I said was that like Jacobs still has more in the tank than Kamara, but it's the same thing of
0:08like, these are players that have always had really good contact balance and it works really well at shedding like a slot
0:08DB who's coming down to try to like tackle you in the flat.
0:08Cause that's what the coverage was. Like he'll catch the ball and he'll just shed that guy.
0:08And then he'll get like more yardage, even though he's like going to do it very slowly.
0:08He's not going to do it fast, but anyway, Bucky will probably make that guy miss too.
0:08But I think Jacobs is going to get a lot of receiving is where I was going with that because he doesn't
0:08have, like, it's probably going to get meaningfully more high value touches and nerfing between the combination of the receiving and the goal line work.
0:08Cause their offense is better too. Like, I just think he's going to potentially, I think that's quite fair.
0:08I think that's quite fair. I mean, I think, yeah, I think Jacobs clearly belongs in this group.
0:08I think there's some risk factors to him. Like, I mean, there's definitely potential risk factor of like additional discipline.
0:08There's, there's like, I think that the, I think injury is a big concern for a guy that missed that much time
0:08and like, wasn't even able to practice with the team.
0:08Um, but I, I definitely think Jacobs has, I mean, Jacobs and love are probably the highest Jacobs and love probably have
0:08a higher true ceiling than I think any of the backs after like Gen D tootin.
0:08I don't even know if I've put tootin, but yeah, like, like, yeah, we're looking pure ceiling, probably, probably a higher ceiling
0:09on Jacobs and love than Hubbard Irving Brown Warren, I think.
0:09Yeah. I think that's right. Tootin is, is interesting as well.
0:09Cause I think I, I, I hear what you just did there.
0:09Like, I don't even know if I'd put tootin, like you could make the case toon should be in a tier with
0:09those guys too, that were kind of, that I mean, that's how, that's how he's played so far, right?
0:09Like if we're looking at score, I should say how he scored so far, right?
0:09Like if we're looking at scoring, you know, right now, Swift 17.5, um, Hubbard is all the way up at 18.
0:09So he's probably ran a little hot, but, um, he's at 18.
0:09Warren 17.1, Irving 15.7, Tootin 14.7. Um, so he's like, was certainly like quote unquote overdrafted relative to his scoring output so far.
0:09But like, I think he was a completely justifiable pick.
0:09I agree. There's good reasons to think he will be exceeding his scoring output so far over the second half of the season for sure.
0:09Yeah. Anyway, I think that was, that was a good discussion.
0:09Um, what? So I also wanted to talk a little bit about Concepcion and lemon.
0:09I already kind of gave some of those takes.
0:09I was trying to think of like, well, I wanted to ask you, I mean, I was going to ask if you
0:09wanted to have that conversation or chime in or your thoughts, but then if you had other takes from this draft, I
0:09mean, again, people who want to listen to all the picks should go listen to all the picks.
0:09Uh, but who are some of the guys that you thought were interesting or worth discussion?
0:09Do you have any in mind? Um, that's a good question.
0:09I mean, I definitely want to talk about, um, lemon and Concepcion.
0:09I'd be happy to, I think, well, give your take, give your, give your take on those guys.
0:09I'll try to think of another guy while we talk.
0:09Well, one, one we should talk about is Brees and Braylon who went in the same round.
0:09Brees ended up going 601 and Braylon Allen went 606.
0:09That would be a fun one. Yeah, but I want to hear your take on Concepcion running back range, right?
0:09With Allen and hall, but then also guys like Coleman and Coram, but yeah, we can, we can talk about the rookie receivers if you want.
0:09Let's do that for sure. I want to hear your thoughts on, I kind of gave my thoughts.
0:09I thought lemon looked really good. His a dot was super low, but he made some really physical catches and we got
0:09a little bit of, you got the most yards after the catch that he's had yet.
0:09And that was a big skillset for him coming in.
0:09And so seeing a little bit after the catch, seeing the, uh, toughness and the physicality at the catch point, even on
0:09a low a dot, I thought was really promising, even though it was a good situation.
0:09All the other guys are out. You're playing the Cowboys to actually have a good game in that situation is a really, really promising outcome.
0:09And then you just, you, you hope that there's more role evolution.
0:09And there was some here. He was at least running like, it's weird that his a dot was actually lower than a
0:09season average, but he's gotten some like downfield stuff a little bit.
0:09Um, and he didn't in this game, but there was more like actual routes that were like five yard routes, as opposed
0:09to like just swing passes behind the line of scrimmage, which he's been getting a lot of in the first six weeks.
0:09So I thought his role was interesting. And then concepts young just looked awesome.
0:09He had eight catches for 129 yards in the first half.
0:09His yak was even more dominant than, um, than lemons.
0:09The second half, he dropped the downfield throw. It was a bullet.
0:09That was tough. It could have been a TD.
0:09It was a bullet. It was a tough play, but you'd like to see him make the play.
0:09And there was another deep throw that was a little overthrown.
0:09So both of his downfield plays went incomplete. There's still, I kind of said earlier jury out on the downfield volume, but his eight out was 11.
0:09At least there was the intent to throw downfield.
0:09And that's something we're not seeing with lemon as much.
0:09And so it's good, obviously, but the whole game plan was built around getting concepci on the ball.
0:09He touched the ball on every one of their six first half drives.
0:09And then in the second half, he got a little bit, uh, underused at, uh, at times on the second half, but
0:09he got, uh, uh, and then the round late and he fought through contact.
0:09And had like a 19 yard carry down to the nine, if I'm remembering it right, or 18 yard carry down to
0:09the nine, which set up a really key touchdown for them in the fourth quarter.
0:09So I thought everything that you've talked about with him was, was present the before the catch, after the catch operating at
0:09different depths, all the things that I always talk about, about, you know, wanting the very production so that you have an
0:09insulated profile to how you're used in that stuff.
0:09If you can get numbers in all those ways before and after the catch pointed all different depths in a lot of
0:09different areas of the field from different alignments, whatever you, however you want to think about it, that insulates you.
0:09That's awesome. That's the Zay flowers thing, right? Like he's been doing that ball in hand or vertical or regardless, like he's getting open downfield.
0:09He's taking the ball near the line of scrimmage and he's creating yards like Concepcion, other than not really catching a ton
0:09of balls downfield, he showed that profile and he was efficient in all the other ways, catching some short stuff, catching some outs and some, um, underneath stuff.
0:09So he looked great. I thought lemon looked great.
0:09We didn't get to see the intent to throw out a lemon downfield, but I was, I was really optimistic about both.
0:09I wanted to get your thoughts cause I took Concepcion and I took lemon and, and talked about him a little bit on our show last night.
0:09I didn't get to hear your thoughts on him.
0:09yeah, I, I mean, I'll talk mostly about lemon because I felt like I talked really bullishly about Concepcion last week.
0:09Um, and then, you know, it was a really bullish game and I would agree with all the thoughts that you laid out.
0:09Um, I wouldn't say, I, I hope that it's kind of similar to what you said about Concepcion.
0:09I hope that what I said about lemon last week, is it interpreted as like me burying him or anything?
0:09Cause I don't think that that was my intent, but, um, I talked less enthusiastically about lemon last week and then super enthusiastic game.
0:09I think on Monday. Yeah. I mean, you laid it out.
0:09Like it was obviously like the game was kind of there for him on a red carpet, no Smith, no Wicks Cowboys,
0:09but like it was a game that felt like, I mean, I think I said it on the podcast last week.
0:09I was like, this kind of feels like a now or never spot for him.
0:09And it was now. So that's like way, way, way, way, way better than never.
0:09Um, you know, he had a great opportunity and he made the place.
0:09I think what was most encouraging to me is that I've just felt like for a lot of this season.
0:09And I don't know exactly if it was the offensive coaching staff or lemon himself or Jalen hurts, but I felt like
0:09it's looked like they haven't frequently known like who it was that they drafted.
0:09Um, and they haven't used him in a way that I just envisioned him being used coming out of college.
0:09And then Monday night, he was used kind of exactly like the core of what I felt like he'd be used out
0:09of college, which is like separating versus man in the short and intermediate areas, finding holes in zone, having strong hands at
0:09the catch point where he's able to make those plays in traffic.
0:09I love the touchdown catch. We ran like a, um, it's like not even really a slant.
0:09Cause it's such a, uh, such like a one step slant basically.
0:09But then he gets hit by two guys sandwich.
0:09He's able to hold onto the ball, spin into the end zone, get the, um, not really after the catch, but like
0:09make the strong play through contact, get the touchdown.
0:09Like that's kind of like the core of lemons game to me.
0:09Um, and then the questions on lemon were like, and not really in the stats, the stats profile would suggest that these
0:09aren't questions, but some of the trait based questions, I think coming out for some people was, does he have the NFL
0:09level athleticism, like the juice to be able to add more of the downfield stuff, um, beyond sort of being this reliable
0:09chain mover type, you know, is this a guy who can be like, I don't know.
0:09Is, is he going to be on the Ross St.
0:09Brown or is he gonna be Jacoby Myers? Right.
0:09Um, and I think the jury is still somewhat out on the deep and intermediate stuff, but like at the very least
0:09we got proof of concept on what I feel like is the like core of lemons game.
0:09And then now we can start to think about, okay, how do we build out and see what more you can do.
0:09But at least like, I feel like we can all kind of take a deep breath and be like, okay, we've got something here.
0:09And from the Eagles perspective, I don't know how much Smith's going to play the rest of the year.
0:09I don't know how much Barkley is going to play the rest of the year.
0:09It's a lost season. They have their own pick.
0:09Like they've been a pretty forward thinking organization in the past, but it comes to not optimizing for wins that they don't need.
0:09I guess like whatever you want to set the line at for games played by Devonta Smith and Saquon Barkley this year, guessing I would take the under.
0:09So what do they have to do for the rest of this season without their quarterback, potentially without two of their veteran stars?
0:09One of the best things they can do is evaluate Mikhail Lemon, right?
0:09And so it's super encouraging at this kind of crucial hinge point of the season that he's put a really positive game out in their eyes.
0:09He's come through. And I feel like as you kind of laid out as a big time possibility last week, like if
0:09he could get that positive momentum going, there's no reason for it to stop.
0:09Like they should continue to try to make him a featured piece.
0:09You know, there's a push pull to that. Obviously now there's tape on him.
0:09People might treat him as the number one on defense and how does he respond to that tougher coverage?
0:09We'll find out. But I think he's a really exciting piece.
0:09Like, I mean, he got dropped in a couple of leagues, like high stakes leagues last week.
0:09And like, if you were able to pick him up or if you held him and I held him in a bunch
0:09of leagues, like now I'm really pumped. This might be a guy we get to start for the rest of the year.
0:09So yeah, a ton of optimism. Yeah. I think the, where you like got at the end, there is what I was going to emphasize.
0:09Cause you were saying kind of the proof of concept thing.
0:09And I was going to just, I agree with everything you're saying.
0:09And then I think you want to be aggressive on him right now in home leagues.
0:09If he's still out there or whatever, you want to make sure you're making moves on the Kyle lemon.
0:09There's a, there's a brief lull sometimes when a guy has, I mean, people will be like, well, he only had 67
0:09yards and it was just against the Cowboys and Devonta Smith and Dante Vinwix were out and all of these things.
0:09What we had seen so far, the concern was the Eagles.
0:09You said this, I think last night on our show, didn't know what they had for like what they drafted.
0:09Like they didn't know how to use this player.
0:09We actually got that little bit of proof of concept as you were talking about that proof of concept is enough.
0:09Along with the prospect profile, which was fantastic. Like I said, it was better.
0:09I said at the top of the show is better than concept C owns like meaningfully better in like yards per out
0:09run and yards per target type metrics over multiple years, better in terms of ball in hand.
0:09They were similar, I think in like yak per reception, but like lemons was, I think a little bit better and had
0:09a little bit more, um, a little bit more miss tackles force per reception, which is notable because his eight odd was higher.
0:09And so you get like, he's actually generating similar yak perception at a higher eight odd bite, but making more guys miss
0:09conception is doing more of it with short passes, ball in hand around the line of scrimmage where you're just going to have more space to run.
0:09And the yak tends to be higher. And so there's actually like, I think arguably when you dig into that, you parse
0:09the a dot adjusted yak and, and the miss tackles for stuff and all of that.
0:09Some of the miss tackles for stuff can be misleading.
0:09Cause you could say on lemon, he didn't test particularly well.
0:09Maybe he has to force tackles to get the yak that concepts.
0:09Young could just create through his explosiveness. You could make that case.
0:09I think if you parse it, it's pretty clear that lemons numbers ball in hand stuff was, uh, was better in college.
0:09And then again, the overall efficiency, the yards per target was better as well.
0:09The, the yards per run was better over multiple years.
0:09Then both of lemon basically had two high volume years.
0:09Both of his years were over three yards per run.
0:09I think conception's career high was below three. It was, it was below both of lemons main years.
0:09So I'm not like, I'm not trying to directly compare them.
0:09I'm just trying to defend my stance that like lemons profile, like from a production standpoint was better.
0:09I think it was lemons profile statistically is head and shoulders better than conception.
0:09I think conception's traits are a little bit more intriguing.
0:09And I just think he's a more dynamic player.
0:09And so I felt like the one concern I had about lemon was like, will the, will the statistical profile from college
0:09translate to the NFL based on like what I see as some limitations athletically, but, but my answer to that was not.
0:09No, it's just like that. That would, that would, I would say be like, if conception ends up being a better NFL
0:09player, I could see that as being the reason why, but statistically I don't think it's that close.
0:09Lemon's profile was, was clearly better. And so there was concerns with lemon though, that you just mentioned, if he could translate
0:09and, and these things, what we saw this week was again, as you said, proof of concept, when you get the proof
0:09of concept with a player who has as good of a production profile as he has, I do think you want to
0:09be aggressive on him now in, in different places.
0:09I'm trying to trade for him in some spots.
0:09I'm trying, like I sent out a dynasty offers for him because I think there are people that are like worried that
0:09he's not what they hoped he was. And if you're like able to then buy him for a first or something, like
0:09I think lemon's going to get a lot. I, you said like potentially startable the rest of the way.
0:09It seems like that, right? Like it seems like, I'm not going to say for sure every single week, but I want
0:09to play lemon in my leagues this week. I'm trying to get him into lineups wherever I can.
0:09Like I'm pretty confident that he has six plus targets, four straight games.
0:09The production hasn't been there. Concepcion on an important team where I'm facing by weeks.
0:09I'm playing lemon this week. Most likely you're playing them over Concepcion.
0:09Interesting. I mean, I'll make that final call Sunday morning, but that's where I'm leaning.
0:09Well, cause I only, I, it's probably fair. Cause the Browns have so many more options of like health.
0:09I'm healthy right now, but this is assuming Smith is out.
0:09Obviously I, yeah. Smith comes back plays. Then I would definitely, the only reason I own, but only reason I said that
0:09is I know you're really high on Concepcion and he had even a better week seven, right?
0:09Like he was really quite good in week seven.
0:09And so you could make the case to play Concepcion on the, on the, that ground, but you totally could.
0:09I think they're both good plays. I have a lemon versus Antonio Williams league that I was looking at this morning and
0:09I was like, yeah, I want to get them both in leagues.
0:09How do I get them both in the lineup?
0:09Like who am I benching? Like it's going to be tough.
0:09Yeah. I mean, cause Antonio Williams coming out of the by, like Dan Quinn's talking about using him more and you took him in between Concepcion and lemon.
0:09And we, we were, we were feeling like he's in the, yeah, we, we feel like he's in this range too.
0:09I mean, he's looked really good. The notes on Williams for me, uh, when I was doing some of the signals writing
0:09and digging into him, the numbers aren't perfect. The numbers were way worse when Jane Daniels wasn't in, you go back to
0:09week one, he caught all three of his targets from Daniels.
0:09You go back to the last couple of weeks, he's caught everything from Daniels.
0:09He, I think he's caught like, I had the number in San Sanos.
0:09It's like 11 of 12 targets from Daniels. So target rate hasn't been massive, but I think that's going to correct itself.
0:09He's caught his, and yards per target is like through the roof on, on Jane Daniels targets.
0:09And then with Cal Lake Manus, he had eight targets for like 29 yards in that, in that game.
0:09Um, that was his worst game. A seven yard touchdown call and an 87 yard touchdown, uh, call back by penalty.
0:09But, um, yeah. So there could have been even more production there efficiency there, but that's where, like, if you look at
0:09his like yards per target, you look at his yards per out run.
0:09It's very, um, quarterback. The splits are, are, are profound by quarterback, which should be a reason to be very enthusiastic about Antonio Daniels.
0:09What was my argument there? I agree with the enthusiasm and I would add, um, again, I'm not, I'm not going to,
0:09uh, profess to be some wide receiver film expert at all.
0:09So like, I'm kind of like combining a little bit of my experience, watching the game and then just like other cutups and commentary I've seen.
0:09But my inclination is that this will be, now this is, I think it, is this a Blair Andrews research topic, um,
0:09about the talks about how early season yards per target efficiency can create increased volume in the second half of season for rookies.
0:09Blair Andrews take, right? I, I know that he was the first one I saw to do that in terms of a year over year.
0:09And then I think he's applied to the early season leads to late season, but the efficiency leads to volume.
0:09Take was a really profound piece because for years and years we looked at like expected fantasy points and then efficiency.
0:09And we talked about how efficiency is going to regress.
0:09Right. And he did a, he, he showed this a few years back where it's like when these young players are really
0:09efficient and don't have a ton of volume, it just means the volume comes up to meet the scoring level.
0:09You just, you should just look at the actual fantasy point scoring level and don't parse it by expected points, points over
0:09expected because part of the reason the efficiency is not stable when we just look at the efficiency stat, is these guys do get more volume.
0:10They start getting force fed more targets that are less efficient targets, but it's, it's creating a similar scoring profile that, that
0:10overall point profile that is different in its makeup where it's just more volume and the efficiency maybe comes down, but they do tend to stay.
0:10If I remember Blair's original research on this correctly, the efficiency regresses, but it still tends to stay positive to good players tend to be good.
0:10Right. But this goes back to, I remember, man, when you say that, I remember this was, I think before Blair's work,
0:10but after AJ Brown's rookie year, he's a great example of it.
0:10They were such a low volume pass offense and they were not going to throw enough.
0:10And in year two, he was so efficient and the efficiency was going to have to regress and they weren't going to throw enough.
0:10And it's going to be a problem. I was at CBS at the time.
0:10I remember talking to my good buddy, Heath Cummings about a lot of that, a lot about it that year.
0:10And just this concept of efficiency in young players, meaning the player's good.
0:10Like, don't, don't just regress out the signal that the player's good.
0:10And Blair, it was around that time or right after that time showed that the data actually like shows that if you
0:10look at like the fantasy points over expected and Rotovis has the EP and FPOE stat, he used FPOE to show that
0:10EP rises when FPOE is particularly high. And anyway, that's what you were like.
0:10Williams has been efficient, right? He's been super efficient.
0:10And yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's something that might've happened anyways, but like this to me is like the
0:10most potentially is classic of an example of this phenomenon as possible where you get not just a rookie, but around three
0:10rookie who, when he was drafted, they were probably not looking at Antonio Williams being like, our plan is for you to
0:10be our number one receiver for most of this season.
0:10Like it was probably, yeah, like maybe you'll start and like, hopefully we'll get you some, some touches, but like it's, it's
0:10not, you're not going to be like a massive part of what we're doing.
0:10And he actually had like a really quiet camp in terms of what was reported.
0:10It was obviously more impressive than what was reported on because he was already playing as the wide receiver for and getting
0:10in routes in week one, but he pops a ton from an efficiency basis.
0:10Those first couple of weeks, and there were, you know, probably was like to some degree a surprise to the team of
0:10like, Oh, like we got this young player. He's performing above expectations.
0:10We're going to find a way to get them on the field more.
0:10And you still have these veterans in the corn and in digs.
0:10And then, you know, now McClorn's out for the season.
0:10They go on a bi-week. They've been shuffling between three different quarterbacks and it's been receivers in receivers out.
0:10And now you're in a spot where like, they finally have a bi-week.
0:10They understand what their offense is going to be for the foreseeable future, which is they don't have a run game really at all.
0:10They like JCM was not good and now he's hurt.
0:10So there are B one is for shot white.
0:10Have fun. Um, and they're all at stakes. So like really all they, all they have going for them is like, we
0:10got to play Jaden Daniels, spread it out, throw the ball to our backs for the ball to our receivers.
0:10Terry McClorn's hurt. Stefan digs has been pretty effective in the slot role.
0:10I think that's his role. Dan Quinn said that's his role.
0:10It's not going to grow much. So what are we going to find as our point of emphasis on the bi?
0:10I mean, Dan Quinn literally came out and said it's Antonio Williams.
0:10And of course it's got to be Antonio Williams because they're kind of out of other options.
0:10They have this opportunity to figure out, okay, where are we going to find production?
0:10And luckily they have this rookie who's been really efficient and really effective.
0:10You also look at, you know, a lot of the people that are diving more into the film and they've pointed out,
0:10Hey, Antonio Williams is running open a lot and not getting thrown to, you know, a lot of the times that he's open.
0:10And, you know, that probably speaks to maybe some mistakes from, from quarterback play, but also probably that he just was not
0:10the number one or the number two in the progression all that often earlier in the season.
0:10But if he's winning his routes, anyways, coaches are going to have that tape.
0:10They're going to be spending over the bi-week and going, Hey, like this guy's getting open a lot.
0:10Like we're going to make him the first read a lot more often than he was early in the season when we're
0:10trying to funnel our offense more towards the veterans.
0:10So I think there's a ton of potential for him.
0:10I took him ahead of lemon in this draft.
0:10I don't know if that was the right decision.
0:10Maybe, maybe not. I guess I did that mostly because I'm just probably more optimistic about the Washington passing offense.
0:10Uh, then I am about the Eagles passing off heads.
0:10I think it's justifiable. Totally argue that the other way.
0:10Um, like it's, I've, I think I've been more impressed with Williams overall this year and I've feel better about betting on
0:10Jaden Daniels than like Tanner McKee slash maybe Joe Milton or something, but then lemon has a far better prospect profile.
0:10So I think you could argue that either way, but I, I, I definitely feel good about where I got Williams overall.
0:10It was a fascinating run here because you took Concepcion and then Diggs went Williams teammate.
0:10And then I took Williams and then you took lemon and then Ryan, he took Jeremy Bernard.
0:10And then you took Denzel Boston. So we had five rookie wide receivers out of six receivers.
0:10There was a bunch of tight ends and running backs and quarterbacks in between them, but, um, five rookie receivers almost in a row.
0:10Oh, and before it could step steel and went Omar Cooper.
0:10So it was really six out of seven rookie receivers with Diggs.
0:10Diggs being the lone exception, kind of a fascinating way that this all worked out where everybody, everybody was grabbing the rookie receivers.
0:10We were kind of all waiting for someone to break the ice on rookies.
0:10You broke the ice with Jordan Tyson really aggressively at five, 10, which was pretty funny.
0:10That's like, I didn't really mean it. That was like more of like doing a, like a bit, do it a bit.
0:10Yeah, it was, I mean, what I mean is that I think Jordan Tyson is going to have a great second half.
0:10Um, I don't recommend valuing up that highly in your leagues, but the, the next make a point, but no, it was fair.
0:10Cause we were getting really thin at receiver. The next round we started going really, I mean, I, I, it wasn't fully fair and you are acknowledging it.
0:10It was a little, it was a little enthusiastic, but all the rookies started coming because we were kind of in that
0:10range where, um, they needed to, they needed to start getting picked Williams.
0:10Williams. Um, I wanted to know what I pull up the stats from, uh, my field tippers in season check-in last week.
0:10I pulled up the Jane Daniels stat. Williams has caught 10 of 11 balls.
0:10Daniels has thrown his way this year for 145 yards.
0:10That's a 13.2 yards per target. It's only 11 balls, but like he's been insanely efficient with, with, um, Jane Daniels.
0:10Oh, uh, overall, uh, PFF has them at an 8.5 yards per target, which takes out the, uncatchable passes.
0:10I think, uh, pro football reference has him at like 7.8 or something, which whatever, uh, his catch rate is 69% though.
0:10Like it's very high. It's 7.9 yards per target, which is like good.
0:10And the point about 7.9 yards per target that I was going to say is even if you want to look at
0:10the downside, then you wait it to the fact that he lost an 87 yard explosive play.
0:10And all, all that efficiency has mostly come with Jane Daniels and all the inefficiency has come with Calic Manus where he
0:10had, uh, uh, whatever it was, 29 yards on, on eight targets, 21 yards on eight targets, which like, that's an insanely
0:10low yards per target working with a different quarterback.
0:10That's a UDFA or whatever round seven pick or whatever he was.
0:10They got jammed into a game where Marcus Mariota got hurt.
0:10Anyway, you could split up. It's all small samples.
0:10That's why I'm saying it fast and like low.
0:10It's like, this is, I'm not like a really, really hard take, but you can split up the Williams stuff to be
0:10like, there's really a lot more optimism here than people are talking about.
0:10And he's the bet even more than not just, but Concepcion and Cooper, like he could be the number one for Jane Daniels.
0:10And he's looked really good. And he is around three pick.
0:10He is a little bit lower draft capital and profile wise, but there's no reason.
0:10Like Terry McLaurin was one, you know, once upon a time, not the greatest, you know, overall prospect profile, there's no reason
0:10he couldn't be the top scoring rookie wide receiver going forward.
0:10If Daniels continues to play really well, because Stefan Diggs looks limited at this point.
0:10And there's, I mean, chicken conk, what we talked about could be an interesting tight end, but there's not a ton else in this passing game.
0:10They need Williams to step up. He can handle it.
0:10The question is, can he earn enough targets and will the targets brought run just rise because of like first read targets, which would be awesome.
0:10Cause he's only been targeted on 17.6% around so far.
0:10That's gotta be like 24% to do anything. Like what I'm talking about, it's gotta jump a bunch, but if it does,
0:10he's, you know, it doesn't have to be 24%, but it does to, to hit the ceiling of what I'm talking about.
0:10But then at that point, he's going to have enough efficiency that he's going to be a, a top, whatever 20 receiver.
0:10Like he's going to be a legit, like stud, like really good wide receiver at that point.
0:10That's the best rookie of all of them. And I think it's very plausible.
0:10I think your, your selection was very justifiable to me, Williams and lemon.
0:10Then, then you said Ryan took Bernard and I took Boston right after that Bernard and Boston, a little bit less interesting to me.
0:10I think there's a little bit of a tear break where I get, I do get really excited about Cooper, who I think Ryan took as well.
0:10Concepcion, Williams and lemon and Tyson, you, you know, you took higher when he comes back.
0:10Those are the rookies that are the really enthusiastic ones for me, but yeah, in some ways I, at this moment, if
0:10you made me pick one in some ways, it is actually Williams.
0:10That's like the biggest swing that, that seems really, really fun.
0:10I agree. He's the biggest swing. Like, because he doesn't have what he doesn't have that Concepcion and lemon do.
0:10It's like a, a very, very strong analytical prospect profile that I can lean on and have like a high degree of confidence in the talent, right?
0:10Like Williams. Williams. I liked Williams, the prospect. I thought he was an underrated prospect, but there's no comparison between Williams and Concepcion and lemon.
0:10Those guys were first round picks. They had far better production profiles, you know, early to clear players versus Williams, but I've liked what I've seen.
0:10I've seen even in limited samples and yeah, the opportunity to be Jaden Daniels, number one receiver, I think is like really, really exciting.
0:10So, you know, we've been like the dynasty ranks update this week.
0:10He's not in the same tier as lemon and Concepcion, but rest of season.
0:10He's right with those guys for me. Yeah. The, the, um, the Jaden Daniels thing, we've been waiting for Daniels to have like a legit, exciting, explosive player.
0:10Like Terry McLaurin is a fantastic player. And I'm not going to say he's like limited or something.
0:10And, but like when he was the healthiest, he was two years ago, Daniels was playing at another level.
0:10Cause he had a really good wide receiver. And then at other times, McLaurin hasn't been healthy or Daniels hasn't been healthy.
0:10The, what if of like, what if, Antonio Williams is not just like, it's, it's, it, it isn't a superstar.
0:10What I guess the point I'm making is like, it's not what if Antonio Williams is a superstar.
0:10It's what if Antonio Williams is meaningfully better than anyone else other than Terry McLaurin in 2024, the Jaden Daniels has gotten
0:10to throw to, which is not a hard. What if like, it's not, it's not really a high bar.
0:10It's like, yeah, it's like late career. Terry McLaurin, completely cooked Debo Samuel, borderline cook, Stefan Diggs, Zach Ertz, Zach Ertz, Jake
0:10a cock while like, yeah, it's tough. It's been rough.
0:10Jaden, good luck out there, champ. Go get him tiger.
0:10We're never going to give you a running back.
0:10Your receivers are like a mix of mid round rookies and dusty vets.
0:10Like go make it happen though. And also make sure you never checked out.
0:10Make sure you're, you're make sure you're right in the progression with your dog crap off.
0:10Yeah. Yeah. Trust, trust Traylon Burks to hit his marks on his 10 yard.
0:10We don't know what down it is on the field.
0:10You know, it might be third down, it might be fourth down.
0:10Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, God, there's one other thing I wanted to get your take on.
0:10I don't know if you have any other top things to list before we get out of here.
0:10We were going to do hall Allen. We should do, but go, Good one.
0:10Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Mine is of a similar vein because it's, it's also two running backs on the same team.
0:10Um, I took Coleman in round seven and then you took Harvey around later in round eight.
0:10Um, and I wanted to get your take on what you see from this backfield rest of the season.
0:10First of all, I'm curious if you, cause you obviously took Harvey after I took Coleman, would you have taken Harvey ahead
0:10of Coleman or were, do you just like Harvey independently after?
0:10Uh, it's maybe my first question. And then second would just be like, what do you, what do you view that backfield
0:10looking like after a pretty encouraging re debut for her, for Coleman off the IR.
0:10It's interesting. When I took Daniels, I said, I didn't want to make a decision on the running backs.
0:10And I later said on that show that it was, you know, included the Broncos backs.
0:10But I think that was just sort of the gut feel where I've been higher on Harvey than probably I should be.
0:10After you took Coleman, I mean, I didn't rush to the podium to take Harvey with any, either of my next couple of picks.
0:10I felt like Coleman was right. And I, and I feel like at this moment talking to you, that Coleman was right.
0:10Um, and I think it was a good pick by you.
0:10Cause I think he, we, we've talked about it.
0:10Like the, the concern is that the Broncos offense continues to like be gross and they win, keep winning ugly, which they've been able to do.
0:10They're five and two, even though their offenses looked really bad.
0:10I know. And if she said the Broncos play each other this week, I'm like, this could be the AFC championship game.
0:10And I'm definitely going to be less entertaining than the Titans Browns game last week.
0:10Um, and if they continue to be kind of gross and they're, you know, the rushing usage is, is still including JK Dobbins in the mix.
0:10I mean, Jonah Coleman could just be like, not that interesting at that point.
0:10Right. The Harvey thing is like, it's just such a different conversation.
0:10So he's playing a different role. He had 25% routes this week.
0:10It was his first game under 40%. My argument would be, and has been, and was on stealing bananas and was on our podcast last night.
0:10And I'm not going to like go all the way into it.
0:10Cause I've made the case multiple podcasts this week.
0:10You can listen to it elsewhere, but it would be that.
0:10I think that that was the nadir of his season.
0:10He had the explosive play for the TD at another explosive called back or near explosive.
0:10It was a 19 yard gain. Um, and I think Sean Payton, like, I think there's a real, and we've actually talked
0:10about it on this podcast as well. There's a real value in the offense to the short passing game and the way
0:10that it brings players down towards the line of scrimmage and creates the downfield passing lanes.
0:10The same way the running game does. It's why people call it a run game extension.
0:10These short passes, not just on running backs, but I compared it on stealing bananas to that Jane Daniels offense in 2024,
0:10where they were doing a lot of wide receiver screens, throwing the ball to the perimeter quickly to your wide receivers accomplishes the same thing.
0:10It stretches the defense near the line of scrimmage.
0:10It forces them to bring more players down. Cause they got a guard sideline to sideline near the line of scrimmage.
0:10You can run up the middle. You can run to the edge with the outside zone stuff, but you can also throw
0:10to the edge near the line of scrimmage. To me, all of that accomplishes the same thing in the modern scheme, which
0:10is less about run versus pass and more about, can you be efficient on those success rate plays that occur near the
0:10line of scrimmage enough to bring players down into the box to then throw vertically?
0:10Cause if you can't do that, if all you're doing is running up the middle to Kareem hunt and throwing wide receiver
0:10screens to Xavier worthy, he goes down. As soon as the cornerback blows too heavily on him, like the, uh, you know,
0:10the three little pigs and he's blowing his house down.
0:10Then, you know, you have cream honey, Isaiah Pacheco running for three yards in a cloud dust up the middle.
0:10Then the defense can just guard all the vertical routes downfield.
0:10And you have a problem with the way that your offense can functionally work.
0:10You have to then take the check downs every time you drop back.
0:10And that's why Patrick Mahomes, eight was like so low.
0:10And it's, it's all about this thing of how do you space the defense?
0:10How do you create opportunities for other things to work in, you know, in a scheme?
0:10Part of the reason JJ McCarthy was so good.
0:10I'm looking at my stealing signals page. Cause I was pulling something up to look at some of those stats.
0:10And I have JJ McCarthy as the cover boy for part one of stealing signals.
0:10Part of the reason he was so good is they went very run heavy and they ran the ball so effectively.
0:10And then you're thrown to the perimeter. You're like in his arm strength.
0:10One of the things that I gave him a lot of credit for was being able to throw to the boundaries and, you know, outs really well.
0:10And he threw that, that flag route to my neighbors very well.
0:10We still have issues with him throwing over the middle, which is somewhat of a problem.
0:10But if you can throw to both sidelines, they have to defend a lot of grass.
0:10And they also have to defend in the box.
0:10If you know, if you're running well at the same time, all of this is just like basic football, can you do these different things?
0:10The issue with the Broncos right now, and what John Payton tried to do as soon as he took over was run
0:10the ball more with Dobbins to open up the downfield passing.
0:10He was talking about that. And it's not opening it up because Dobbins is, is basically Kareem hunt at this point.
0:10And what you were doing, what I argued to you on the long view recently was you were actually doing effective things
0:10with RJ Harvey in the past game. They want to go away from that for some reason.
0:11I think Sean Payton is like forgetting these principles of football because he's so fixated on the individual players.
0:11They're not forgetting them, but he's like, he's so fixated on something about Harvey right now and about Dobbins and about usage
0:11and who he wants to emphasize that he's not recognizing that Harvey was actually creating positive stuff for his scheme because they
0:11were bringing guys down in the box to try to stop these Harvey plays because he was creating plays after the catch and he was doing stuff.
0:11And then last week they, they cut the routes for him.
0:11They barely give him the ball at all. And that's the week where he breaks off a 50 yard touchdown.
0:11And it's like, I mean, case in point right here, but regardless my argument.
0:11So like you could argue that Harvey is being phased out and these issues are very valid.
0:11And, and Jonah Coleman's going to be the running back because he's going to be able to do the things that Sean
0:11Payton wants the, the one of JK Dobbins to do in the run game to open up the past game.
0:11And Coleman's then a more effective version of that player.
0:11And so I think, and that's what it looked like this week.
0:11He had 50% snaps. Like he played a ton.
0:11I kind of think, so he played a lot late and kind of salting the game out and it was his first game back.
0:11I kind of think you're going to see like a little bit of a veteran bounce for Dobbins this week.
0:11I think his snapshot probably comes back up, which is going to be gross.
0:11I'm shaking my head, but not because I disagree just because I'm exasperated.
0:11Yeah. It's exhausting, but also like Harvey's got to like come back.
0:11Like, I kind of feel like Coleman's going to go from 50% this week down to like 30%.
0:11And it's going to be annoying, but maybe I'm going to be wrong on that.
0:11I hope I'm wrong on that. Cause it'd be better for the offense and be better for Coleman.
0:11Who's like, I think Coleman looks awesome. Like he, and he, he like, he's like, like some of the, some of the
0:11rush, like he looks awesome relative to JK Dobbins.
0:11Some of the rushing, I don't think looks like amazing.
0:11I think Harvey looks like clearly the best ball in hand player.
0:11Not, not, not. Yeah. You're going to say not clearly.
0:11I was, I was, no, I was gearing up to get angry because I thought you were going to say he looks
0:11clearly like the best back, but then when you changed it to ball in hand player, then I, I immediately retreated.
0:11Okay. Okay. That's what I wanted to know what you were retreating on.
0:11That's fair. He is clearly the best ball in hand player.
0:11I agree. I think he's been looking good in space.
0:11I think what Coleman gives you honestly, well, he gives you what Dobbins gave them last year.
0:11Plus I think, because he like, cool. I was really impressed with Coleman's vision.
0:11I shared a couple of runs on social, um, just of him, like kind of breaking tackles and doing like what I
0:11feel like he did really well at Washington at times where it's like, he gets into space and you're never really that
0:11impressed with the athleticism, but he's kind of shrugging guys off and he's staying alive.
0:11And all of a sudden, I compare him to Josh Jacobs.
0:11I compare him to Josh Jacobs early on when people were asking me like, who's this guy from Washington?
0:11Cause I obviously watch all the Washington games. I was like, he's very like Josh Jacobs.
0:11It didn't surprise me that he didn't want to test at the combine.
0:11I didn't think he would have tested very, very well.
0:11Similar to Josh Jacobs. He doesn't have a super high play speed at the same time.
0:11Similar to Josh Jacobs. The yardage efficiency is actually strong and he actually had a decent breakaway run rate and stuff because
0:11he does just like get downhill and get yards and shrug off tackles.
0:11Like you said, he goes in finds green grass and gets to it.
0:11And it's like, and he can, he can catch, he can pass block to your point.
0:11He's well-rounded. He's a better back. I would agree.
0:11He's a better back. The guy I've comped him to is Ramondre Stevenson.
0:11But with the notable exception that because Coleman's so much shorter, he's actually way better in short yardage than Stevenson.
0:11Cause you can't get underneath him the same way that you can, where Stevenson's so upright.
0:11But I think that they have like a similar style where they're kind of like shaken and bacon and they can get into space.
0:11I think Coleman's got a little bit more early burst, but there was another run that I didn't even share.
0:11It wasn't that big of a game. It was like six yards, but it was the one that impressed me the most
0:11where he didn't have a ton of room. It was like a, like in between the tackle and the guard was kind of the aiming point.
0:11And he like made a pretty like proactive problem solving, or maybe just got lucky, but I think he did where he
0:11like saw that a gap was going to open up inside, but it hadn't opened up yet.
0:11And he kind of came to like almost a stop, waited for the gap to open up and then snuck in between
0:11the guard and the center, got up in there and he got like seven yards out of it.
0:11And it was like a run that I think most backs would get like two.
0:11And for a rookie to like see where the play is developing, not even like just, Oh, there's a cutback lane.
0:11I'm going to go to it, but I can read the flow.
0:11I can see that a cutback lane is going to develop.
0:11I'm going to slow myself up so that I'm in position to cut back up and through maximize this run.
0:11I'm like, man, this is just like a professional running back kind of coming into the league.
0:11And that's the kind of play that like Dobbins absolutely has the vision to make.
0:11He doesn't have the athleticism to do much of anything anymore, but it's a play that like Harvey, I don't think makes very often.
0:11And that's where, that's where Coleman, I think is going to give Peyton a lot of what he valued out of Dobbins
0:11last year, what he values out of Dobbins theoretically, but he also brings you the Dobbins never does is Coleman is adept
0:11in the passing game and he's a strong and past protection.
0:11And that's never been strengths of Dobbins. So like, he's not, he's by no means like the dynamic receiving weapon that Harvey
0:11is, but he gives you a guy who can like contribute in all phases.
0:11He doesn't limit your offense, like similar to a Josh Jacobs, you had mentioned, um, or Ramond Ray Stevenson, who I brought
0:11up, like he's, he's a bigger back who is completely acceptable in like passing situations.
0:11I mean, it's, it's almost obvious where this team should go, right?
0:11It's like, they should be using Coleman a lot between the tackles that on third and longs, and then they should be
0:11using Harvey in like a bunch, um, in their spread formation game as a specific weapon, um, mixing in on series on
0:11early downs, obviously getting the two minute drill. Like to me, it should be like a split between these two guys.
0:11And I don't think that Dobbins brings anything that the other guys don't like.
0:11What's, what's his voice in this? It's just the frustrating thing is, I don't know that they will have the courage to phase him out.
0:11Like it's like, we all know what their 2077 backfield is going to be.
0:11We all know what it should be, but will they, will they confront reality in the face or will they give Dobbins enough carries to be annoying?
0:11Because I, I a hundred percent agree with you that Harvey's not getting phased out.
0:11Harvey brings you an element that no one else in this backfield does.
0:11You don't phase that out. So he, he's got, they're limiting it.
0:11They're limiting it enough that it's concerning. So I was, so I took him in round eight.
0:11I was going to ask you how, how you, where, where you would have taken Harvey essentially if that I take him
0:11to, I, I wondered if I took him too high as we kind of thought through some of the other backs, like
0:11a little later, Rashad white ends up going. I took him over Pollard.
0:11I took Omar and Hampton after him in, at the very end of this draft, which I mean, I don't know where
0:11Omar and Hampton should go, but I think there's at least an argument that, that there's a change to change the offense over the pie.
0:11I mean, what I, what did I call them?
0:11And I said, it was now and never week last week.
0:11This is like a now or now. I mean, maybe it is scoring wise, because if they're going against the Rams, they're
0:11probably gonna get their doors blown off, but like, at least from a role perspective, it's kind of a now or never
0:11week where like, is the plan this week? We're going to run Omar and Hampton a lot or not?
0:11Because if it is, then we got something. And if it's not, then see you in 2027.
0:11And that's why I took him at eight, 10.
0:11It's like, if they come out with a, like a slightly different run scheme and they're using a lot of Hampton, he's in 60% plus.
0:11We're like, man, he should be going in like round five.
0:11If they do anything like what they've been doing, it's like, nah, I overdrafted him.
0:11But like, you know, that's, that's what an eighth round pick is in fantasy.
0:11You're like, yeah, it's high upside swing. But so I took Harvey.
0:11We could definitely view him the same way. We view like Judkins and Scadaboo after this week.
0:11You could very well. Could the Harvey, uh, pick for me was if it does continue to be a boring offense where
0:11they rotate too much, they include Dobbins too much.
0:11Harvey's the one that probably scores the most points.
0:11The rest of the way, he doesn't probably lead the team in touchdowns, but especially in PPR, I think he catches the most passes.
0:11And then he has like more yards per touch.
0:11Cause he's getting into space with his touches. Coleman probably gets some yardage and has a good, like a good little season.
0:11But Dobbins is like stealing enough from him on the rushing side that like, it's not great.
0:11So it was like Harvey, a little bit more high floor scoring profile.
0:11I think Coleman should go ahead because it's a little bit more of like a swing.
0:11This was a team where I had just taken Braylon Allen a couple rounds earlier.
0:11And we're going to talk about those guys, but I think Allen is a swing kind of like Coleman where it's like, how big does the role stay?
0:11Maybe Brees all gets traded. You did the whole fanfic thing or whatever happens, you know, maybe a hall doesn't get healthy.
0:11And then like Braylon Allen is then like a smash or maybe Brees all returns to a 65% snap share this week, which is potentially possible.
0:11In which case maybe on this particular team that I just had a mid season draft on that we're not playing out,
0:11but maybe I'm starting Harvey at some point because he's a higher floor PPR play.
0:11and Allen's like value isn't going to zero, but it's a little bit too like trap profile or whatever.
0:11He's got TD equity, but it's like too much, just pure rushing or something on a bad offense.
0:11Um, anyway, I think Harvey's an inch. So I think they give you different things for builds was my point.
0:11Coleman and Harvey, but I think Harvey's interesting. Where would you take him?
0:11Is this like a reasonable spot? It's the right range.
0:11It's the right range. I don't think I would have taken him over any of the backs that went before him.
0:11And trying to think like, no, I think, I think it's the exact right pick probably.
0:11Like, I think I'd rather bet on him than Hampton.
0:11I, I mean, it's like, what do you need?
0:11Right? Like if you, if you really need to put a running back in your lineup this week, I'd rather have Rashad
0:11White or Tony Pollard, you know, um, like I would rather play them this week in RB two, but like if we're,
0:11if as an RB three or like someone who's the first or second guy off your bench, probably rather bet on Harvey.
0:11Another backfield that was split was the Seahawks price.
0:11So the back before Harvey was Charbonnet, uh, Ryan took him 801.
0:11He also took price. I think at six Oh nine, and I liked that price.
0:11You took price. I liked that price pick. Like I felt like that was good value at that point.
0:11Six Oh nine. He went right after Stevenson, Braylon Allen, Corum, Brees hall.
0:11I had kind of forgotten about him. I think I would take him ahead of some of those backs.
0:11I took Braylon Allen ahead of him. For example, I think I would take price over Braylon Allen, even though Braylon has been scoring a ton.
0:11And you're like, you're in the role and you're scoring a ton.
0:11But I, I was pretty optimistic about what we saw about price early on.
0:11A lot of people seem more pessimistic. Everyone shared on the show.
0:11What's that? I'm on a, everyone's pessimistic. We're on price Island over here.
0:11You're with me. Nice. Yeah. Jacob shared that he's pretty concerned about the like green zone work and interior work, which I,
0:11I mean, I think is a fair concern because most of what he looked good at was like towards the perimeter.
0:11I guess I don't think that's like a set in stone thing.
0:11It's obviously something Charlotte does very well when you think about how these guys are going to coexist.
0:11But one of the things that I think is low key good for price is that Emmanuel Wilson was not good.
0:11He ends up hitting on a, like a 21 yard touchdown run.
0:11I think it was in the Sunday nighter to, in the game, but it was like a pretty well blocked play.
0:11And, um, otherwise I thought he didn't have that great of a game, even though he found, he wound up with a
0:11hundred yards rushing on his 24 carries, but like a 21 yard run late is going to help you.
0:11It's a Bucky, it's a Bucky Irving ask line.
0:11He stinks. Bucky Irving looked a lot more impressive than Emmanuel Wilson.
0:11I'll give it, I'll give you that. I saw it right there.
0:11I saw this like low hanging fruit on the branch.
0:11I just wanted to have a bite. Yeah. But my argument was that Wilson has mostly looked pretty bad.
0:11He's been very, very low in rush yards. Over expected, very negative.
0:11Um, George, Alani has struggled as the guy working off of him.
0:11It's had some fumbles issues. They've played some V-less Jones.
0:11Uh, I think V-less Jones, that says enough about how you feel about your running back room.
0:11And he's looked half decent, but you're not going to play a lot of a converted wide receiver ultimately.
0:11And the fact that they didn't play a lot of him when those guys were the backs tells you that they're not
0:11going to play a lot of them. If they can get healthy price and sharps, where I'm going with this is, and
0:11I don't think anyone really is debating this, but once sharps and price are able to, they're going to be the one to punch.
0:11Everyone seems to think it's going to be. So I, I think that part of it is clear because the other backs have not been good.
0:11And then as long as price and sharps can be healthy, that they'll be the guys.
0:11And then it's like a question about the split.
0:11And then people are very confident that sharps going to get all the high value touch stuff.
0:11He's going to be the one on pass downs and he's going to be the one at the goal line.
0:11And I think that's likely, but I think it's less likely than the market seems to believe.
0:11They seem to believe that price has like no shot at high value touches.
0:11I think he's going to catch them early down passes.
0:11They were thrown to him a decent amount. They're thrown to him with air yards in some situations.
0:11I think he's going to catch a decent amount of passes.
0:11And I also think he has a shot at some goal line work as well, especially if sharp.
0:11We don't know how sharp is going to look if he doesn't look like he has some great burst.
0:11But the biggest thing on Charbonnet for me is the fact that he didn't play last week.
0:11I said this on the show last night and I said it in signals is a real signal that the Seahawks are
0:11probably not going to push him early because they could have pushed him out there and they maybe needed to, to go
0:11beat an undefeated team in the chiefs. They ended up winning anyway, but he practiced in limited three times and they said,
0:11we're not going to make you active because we don't think you're ready.
0:11That says that like this, all this optimism that we've been hearing since August, that like Charbonnet might not even go on PUP might play in week two.
0:11Well, now we're going into week eight. He has not played yet, but even after week six, when he was practicing and
0:11they had opened up his window and everything, they did not activate him.
0:11That tells you something. There was some real signal in that.
0:11I don't think Sharps is going to be like a workhorse when he comes back.
0:11And I don't think he's going to get a lot of, well, anyway, I, I don't want to surmise too much about
0:11what he's actually going to look like or anything like that.
0:11But I, I mean, there's a potential for him to be kind of just an ancillary back to price is, is sort
0:11of what I'm thinking, but I don't know if that's accurate.
0:11Yeah. I think that, I think that's like the modal outcome, which could be completely wrong, but I mean, you listen to,
0:11they put a lot of primetime games lately. And, you know, I think the, what the announcers say is often very influenced
0:11by like some of the production meeting stuff. And without saying it, like the sense that you get from listening to.
0:11Collinsworth, who was doing the game, especially on Sunday night, is that the Seahawks are kind of acknowledging that they, that one
0:11of the reasons that their offense is not working as well as it did last year is that they're missing the explosiveness on the outside zone scheme.
0:11And that that's not setting up their play action the way that they want it to.
0:11And that they can't really generate that with Emmanuel Wilson and George Lonnie.
0:11And I don't think they're going to be able to generate that with Zach Charbonnet.
0:11He was not that explosive previously. He's going to be less explosive, probably off of the ACL.
0:11They drafted price and the first round with the obvious intention of him being the key point in their offense of generating
0:11that explosive rushing opportunity that opens everything else up for them.
0:11They then go invest in a hall of fame generational interior offensive lineman who is going to make a massive impact in
0:11terms of opening up holes for generic price and for explosive runs.
0:11He's been the key impact blocker for so many of Jonathan Taylor's home runs over the years.
0:11Like that is all about sort of opening up that potential for price.
0:11Yeah. I think that there's going to be concerns about high value touches, you know, past game stuff for sure.
0:11Um, goal line stuff. I think there's, it's fair to have concerns about, but I'm glad that we took price ahead of Charbonnet in this draft.
0:11I don't know if that's the popular sentiment that like, that's the back you'd rather have.
0:11Um, I think Charbonnet was a totally reasonable pick by the way where he went.
0:11Like it's an ambiguous spot, obviously. And, and maybe Charbonnet is just the guy, but I would bet on price.
0:11And I think that, I think what people are though, like maybe I'm just like totally straw manning, but what I sense
0:12the prevailing view is, is that Charbonnet is locked into all the high value touches.
0:12And the only question is how many of the low value touches price takes away.
0:12I view it like as nobody's locked into anything, but to the extent anyone's locked into anything, I feel more confident about
0:12price getting the bulk of the, between the twenties carries.
0:12And then the question is how much of the high value touches does Charbonnet cap?
0:12That's like how I'm viewing it. Um, so I think you said that perfectly optimistic with price.
0:12I think you said both my perception of the way that a lot of people are viewing it and the way that
0:12I would view it, the way that, the way that you view it is the way that I correct way to view it.
0:12Um, I think he said that perfectly. That's what I was kind of trying to say, but not saying it as eloquently.
0:12I think he said that really, really well. Uh, the, the hall Allen one, like what are your thoughts there?
0:12I think, I mean, the, the big thing for me with this one is just that I think on this one, I
0:12think hall's going to play more in the past game.
0:12He, his yards per hour run is legitimately really, really good this year.
0:12And he's made some really nice plays. And then, um, Allen has, has a low yards per hour run and has been
0:12like, he's been able to catch the ball out of the backfield, but he's not like an efficient receiving back.
0:12Really? He's kind of like a big back space that just catches the ball.
0:12Brees halls made some really nice plays in the passing game this year.
0:12There's, there's one like third long where he, did I already talk about that on this show?
0:12God, we're three hours in, but he cut back on like three receivers in space.
0:12It looked awesome. Three defenders in space. He made like three guys.
0:12I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point because when they were both healthy this season, um, Allen was randomly playing
0:12all the long down and distance stuff. Like hall was still getting more past work.
0:12Cause you know, it's actually the more valuable passing work is usually on early downs for running backs, not on third and 10.
0:12But interestingly, Allen was playing the bulk of the passing situations.
0:12And then he's played in all situations. Obviously while hall's been out, I'm curious to see how they arrange things.
0:12If I had to guess, I think they're just going to like go drive by drive the first game and see how
0:12it goes and then kind of play the hot hand, but we'll see.
0:12So, and I think Allen's going to maybe look better as a runner.
0:12Cause hall has looked a little bit slow at times in the backfield, but like once you get him in space, he's actually good in space.
0:12We did talk, we talked about this. I think, I think what you described is the most efficient use of them, which
0:12would be like Allen getting like maybe, maybe even a slight majority of the carries, but then utilizing hall on some tosses,
0:12some outside stuff and more in the passing. I mean, almost like kind of the split that I was talking about for
0:12Coleman and Harvey would maybe make sense. But when I, when I did my in-season field tipper check in last week, so
0:12this doesn't include whatever Allen did receiving wise in week seven.
0:12I talk about the targets per outrun stuff with running backs to talk about intent because like they're playing in the same
0:12offense, but like some running backs just end up with a lot more targets per out.
0:12Now, some of this is the role base with the long down and distance, but hall had a 23.3% targets per route on his 43 routes.
0:12It's not a lot. Allen had a 12.9% on his 93 routes up to this point.
0:12So like hall's basically doubling him, but then also the yards per target side of it.
0:12Like, what are you doing with your targets? Hall was over 10 and 10.2 because he's been generating a ton of yak perception.
0:12He's made a bunch of big plays. Braylon Allen was at 3.8, which is extremely low, but even just like look at
0:12last year, Allen was at 5.7 as a rookie.
0:12He was at 5.7 yards per target, which is slightly below the average for running backs, which is typically about 6.0 hall.
0:12Every year of his career has been 6.4 higher has been above that average last year.
0:12He was at 8.8 back as a rookie. He was at 7.3 as multiple really strong seasons in terms of yards per target.
0:12And then the years where he's had really good targets per run as yards per out run has been awesome.
0:12He was as a rookie was a 2.0 yards per run in the next season.
0:121.76. The down year is about 1.26 1.37 this year so far 2.37 only 43 routes, but 2.37 yards per run for a running back.
0:12Allen 0.48. So when I talk about there being a gap, we're talking about a gap.
0:12We're talking about a 5x gap in terms of yards per route.
0:12Very meaningful. And then Allen's other seasons 0.85, 1.10.
0:12So again, his career high below Brees Hall's career low.
0:12This is an element of this backfield that does matter and will matter.
0:12And Brees Hall, I think, has got to be viewed more favorably and was in this draft.
0:12I think it was a good pick by Ryan to take him where he did.
0:12And then I took Allen about a half round later.
0:12Because I do think you can also make that bet on Allen similar to the way you were talking about.
0:12I think Price, which is like, you know, things could work.
0:12I think Allen's going to have a rushing role.
0:12I do feel pretty good about that. But maybe I'll be wrong on that.
0:12Maybe they'll just go all Hall. I don't know.
0:12But I feel like Allen's going to have. It would not be the first time that a team has an injury to a starter.
0:12Their backup looks really good. Everybody in the fantasy football community thinks that the backup has earned a bigger role.
0:12And then the team just says, nope, we're going right back to what we played a week one.
0:12It would not be the first time. It's not what I expect.
0:12It happened last year with Chuba Hubbard and Rico Dowdle.
0:12But then Chuba continued to struggle. And then they went back to Dowdle.
0:12And they were like, all right, we're actually going to go back to Dowdle.
0:12But yeah, that does. You're right. That does happen more often than we think.
0:12Any other final thoughts, takes? Blake Corum went between Hall and Allen.
0:12That was you. Yeah. Great pick, I thought. But he's gotten a lot more valuable as the Rams have gotten.
0:12I should have taken Ramondre there. That one, I forgot about Ramondre.
0:12But the Rams? I like the Corum pick too.
0:12Super 13 personnel heavy last week. And I think both.
0:12I took Kyron in round two. So I think Kyron still has a lot of value.
0:12But I think both backs are going to be quite valuable.
0:12As they kind of become a run. Like an RB based offense.
0:12And then Puka. And then tight ends. That's what it seems like they're going to be.
0:12Yeah, it's the strength of the team. I mean, they've both played.
0:12Kyron's having the best season of his career as a.
0:12He might actually be having one as a fantasy player too.
0:12Maybe he hasn't beat out 2023. But from a real life perspective.
0:12I used to be like kind of a Kyron hater.
0:12And I've been more impressed by him as a real life running back than I've ever been this season.
0:12I think he's been phenomenal. And that's to take nothing away from.
0:12Like Horum. Who I think is a fantastic rusher.
0:12And I hope he gets his own backfield one day.
0:12Because I think he's really, really, really good. So I think that they're right to be leaning into these two backs.
0:12They have two really, really good backs. And their wide receiver two currently is not a mum field.
0:12Any other final thoughts? No, I'm good. Good show.
0:12Long show. Not our longest show. But good show.
0:12And yeah, I had a ton of fun doing this draft.
0:12I know that we've analyzed some of the picks.
0:12But I would strongly encourage anyone, if you enjoyed listening to this show, I believe that the episode, well, by the time
0:12that this is posted, the episode will certainly be up if it's not already.
0:12And go give that a watch or a listen.
0:12Because you'll hear, of course, way more picks than this.
0:12You'll get Ryan's great perspective. You'll get Jacob Sanderson's great perspective.
0:12So yeah, it's a fun episode. It was. My kind of last thought as you were saying that was maybe we could
0:12pick out a few interesting guys that we really like that were interesting where they went.
0:12Like I saw Jameson Williams. I took Jameson Williams.
0:12The listeners will be glad to know at 410.
0:12So he kind of went similar to where he's been, where he was going in the preseason.
0:12He went right behind. You took DJ Moore right before him at 409.
0:12Right behind DJ Moore, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, Garrett Wilson, Michael Wilson.
0:12Yeah, Michael Wilson went in there at 405. Luther Byrne, George Pickens were earlier in the round.
0:12Matthew Golden, you took at 304. One of the guys that we were in on in the preseason was fun to see how high you took him.
0:12Parker Washington to 12 was an interesting one. Your guy.
0:12Yeah, I thought it was a great pick. Your guy, Jalen Waddell, you refused to take and we were all waiting for you to take him.
0:12He goes 604 to, I believe, Gibbs. Yeah. Yeah.
0:12Yeah. And I'm sure he felt great about that.
0:12I think where he went is completely fine. I mean, like he's like he is still getting the like usage.
0:12It's just this offense is so broken that like, yeah, like I don't think he where he went is completely fine.
0:12But obviously, it's going to fall way, way, way, way short of my preseason expectations.
0:12That's for sure. You took Travis HN in at the 508.
0:12And then Judkins, I believe that was Gibbs at 509.
0:12Scadaboo at 511. To me, that was an interesting little range.
0:12I thought your HN pick was really interesting. They have, as you noted on the show, have had some real issues with the other Saints backs there.
0:12And so when he's healthy, he's probably like you said that their plan coming in clearly was to do a little bit of a committee.
0:12But when he's healthy, it's like more likely that he could be just the guy going forward.
0:12Yeah. I think this is like they were dating.
0:12They were dating two people, one of them went on a trip.
0:12And then they had to spend all their time with the one person they were dating.
0:12And they were like, I don't want to date this person anymore.
0:12This sucks. Like, I'm going to go exclusive with this other person as soon as they come back from their vacation.
0:12Does that metaphor work on you or no? No.
0:12Gen Z is weird to me. You guys are weird.
0:12Dating multiple people thing. It's just weird, man. For the record.
0:12I could keep it straight if it was me.
0:12Non-exclusive dating. I'm not advocating for cheating. I've been very monogamous at all times.
0:12I don't know how to do the navigating multiple.
0:12You guys are weird. What other one stuck out to you as you look at this board before we go?
0:12Jeremiah Love 404 was a steal. We both think he should.
0:12Jeremiah Love 404 is a potential steal. I'm fascinated to see what the market thinks.
0:12I just got off. Right before we record this, I do the DFS show each week with Davis.
0:12And he was trying to tell me that Jeremiah Love is not going to be owned in DFS this week against Dallas.
0:12And he's already practicing. He's going to play. I was like, really?
0:12And he's cheap too. And I was like, well, if he's not going to be owned, I'm going to play more DFS lineups than I've ever played.
0:12Because I want to be ahead of this. And I don't know.
0:12Maybe Davis is going to be wrong. Maybe he is going to be super owned.
0:12This is not a DFS podcast. But anyways. No, I love the take because Tyler Algier stumbling and like them not getting what they wanted out of him.
0:12So they had to play more Bam Knight. I just keep writing in the ceiling signals every week.
0:12It's good for Jeremiah Love. Like it has to be right.
0:12Yeah. So I'm so excited for Jeremiah Love this week.
0:12Come on, man. This one is not a now or never because it's never now or never when we're talking about the third overall pick.
0:12But I prefer now. He wasn't even that hurt.
0:12They wanted to get him fully healthy. They've done it.
0:12But every time they've put him in, they've overused him.
0:12Like I don't think they're going to ease him back in.
0:12They're going to. And they've thrown to him when they've used him limited ways.
0:12They've like made it a point to use him in the past game.
0:12He's going to catch like five balls and he's going to get like 12 carries against the Cowboys defense.
0:12Yeah. The broadcasters were saying things like I've been impressed with Damian Pierce tonight.
0:12And I was like, I'm not. I'm not. But I understand that it's easy to average four yards to carry against the Cowboys.
0:12I mean, I was just running in sludge. When we had the Bucky Irving conversation, I was basically just throwing out that
0:12game because I was like, you know, I mean, he wasn't playing against a real NFL defense that week.
0:12So it doesn't count. Barkley could barely. He was like one hopping his way around the field like Tigger.
0:12And he was averaging seven yards per carry. Tigger.
0:12Yeah. He had seven carries for 60 something yards.
0:12It was absurd. And he couldn't move. He was like, he was like actively limping and like running off the field in pain.
0:12And he was getting seven yards carry. Like, it was.
0:12It's. Yeah. So I think love. You can do what you want with your lineups listeners.
0:12But where I have Jeremiah Love, assuming he is active and gets in his full practice, whatever else, he will be in
0:12all my lineups wherever I've got him. I'm excited to welcome him back to my squads.
0:12You can ride with me or not. But I, to me, the like panic about Jeremiah Love, I understand frustration about his injuries.
0:12That's like obviously natural. And I'm frustrated too, because he clearly has not scored up to the level that you paid for him in drafts.
0:12But the panic over like his outlook for his career, whether he'll ever be startable at any point this season, to me is bananas.
0:12And I'm really, really excited for him to be back.
0:12Mike Evans, another one that's banged up. They're going on by hope is that he'll be able to return.
0:12He went 407 here. I liked that. He's been really, really good per route.
0:12That's a risky pick. But if he if he has like should have been in round two upside, if he's just healthy off the buy and stays healthy.
0:12Yeah, he's been good. He's up there. Swift at 211.
0:12You mentioned that before. Did you have a take on that?
0:12I think that was a good pick. What was that?
0:12I think it's fine. I think he's more with the Howard, Bucky, Brown, Warren, Jacobs guys.
0:12But I think he's like it would be very fair to put him at the front of that tier.
0:12Josh Allen, 301. And you were Ryan that was upset about that.
0:12Ryan because he wanted to take him. Ryan was upset about that.
0:12Yeah, you. I mean, I guess I think that's probably a little high.
0:12I think it was a little early. Yeah, really.
0:12Lamar when it's all right. Lamar. Lamar. I mean, Jalen Waddle was off the board.
0:12You took Lamar at 605. I was apparently refusing to take quarterback.
0:12So that's my bad. But yeah, Lamar. That gap between 301 to 605, Josh Allen to Lamar is probably too wide.
0:12Right? Yeah. I think so. I mean, who knows with Lamar if he'll even be healthy this week.
0:12Maybe he'll decide not to play again. Who knows?
0:12No. He's playing this week. He's playing this week.
0:12I need this. I need to see him and Flowers in the shootout against the Bills.
0:12I want that. They finally put a good game during the ship cast.
0:12We're not just watching Dolphins, Jets, and Browns, Titans.
0:12You'll finally get a fun game to write about in part one of Stealing Signals.
0:12Let's go. Come on. Let's just have. Let's come on, NFL.
0:12Give us a 38-35 Ravens Bills back and forth.
0:12Part one of Stealing Signals. The East divisions that play in that time slot are terrible.
0:12It's the best noon slate we've had in a long time.
0:12We're getting Ravens Bills. We're getting Cardinals Cowboys. Why did you call it a noon slate?
0:12It's one Eastern. Because I grew up in Winnipeg.
0:12I grew up in Winnipeg. Because I know your Pacific Coast time.
0:12I'm like, it's one Eastern, and it's 10 a.m.
0:12for you like it is for me. So where did you get noon?
0:12You're about to be 11 next week for me.
0:12I'm in this weird spot. BC has gone away from daylight savings times.
0:12So we're not going to be in the same time zone anymore next week.
0:12What? It's going to be so confusing. We live like three hours apart.
0:12We're going to be in different time zones. That's stupid.
0:12But I also want it to be 11. So I would prefer that.
0:12No, but it's not going to be for you.
0:12It's still going to be 10 for you. I know.
0:12That's what I'm saying. I prefer that we have the same laws as you.
0:12Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Oh, Lad McConkie, 503. Daylight savings time.
0:12I think that's. Oh, Lad McConkie. We should go.
0:12That's a good. Lad McConkie, 503. Right after Carnell Tate.
0:12Jalen Coker. I think Coker was a good pick at 501.
0:12I argued at the time when Jacob took him, Jacob Gibbs, that maybe he should have been closer to where I took Ted Rowe and McMillan at 307.
0:12I mean, I know there shouldn't be a round and a half gap between those two guys.
0:12I think they're both studs and it's a two man.
0:12They're correlated. Like if McMillan's hitting at 307, I'm right there.
0:12Then he's probably hitting on Coker at 501. But McConkie, 503, I think they got to do something.
0:12We've talked about this. They got to do something.
0:12It's going to be funny when they're just as bad this week.
0:12It's going to be. Yep. Well, that'll do it.
0:12On that note. Any final thoughts? We love you guys.
0:12Love you guys. We never talked about a Patreon episode.
0:12So I guess we're probably not doing one this week.
0:12Probably not this week. Maybe let's soft target next week.
0:12We were soft targeting this week. We failed to get on top of it.
0:12We did an extra pod with the CBS guys together.
0:12Yes. Next week. Next week we are. Okay. I'll say not just soft, but like.
0:12Okay, we're committing. No, not hard, but like medium targeting.
0:12We're medium targeting. Okay. I'm good with medium target.
0:12It's growing more likely. Medium target. Appreciate you guys.
0:12Thanks for sticking around with us. We will talk to you next week.
0:12Later.