The Long View Podcast artwork

Analyzing a Mid-Season Draft + Trade Deadline Moves we Want

STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this podcast and kept the full transcript here for context.

1 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Oct 29, 2026
Published
Thu, October 29, 2026
58
Player insights
36
Players mentioned
Topics
Brian Thomas Jr.Alec PierceDavante AdamsPuka NacuaJosh DownsParker WashingtonPatrick MahomesXavier WorthyA.J. BrownAnthony RichardsonBraelon AllenBreece HallBrenton StrangeBrock Bowers
Player analysis

Player insights

58

A.J. Brown

NegativeInjury3:20

The source mentions the Patriots added AJ Brown to their passing game and hopes he can return to form coming off a high ankle sprain. The source notes this was part of the team's effort to add an explosive element to complement Drake May's passing ability.

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Alec Pierce

NegativeProjection0:03

The source argues Alec Pierce is not as good as his contract suggests; his career high is 1,003 yards (just over 1,000), compared to Brian Thomas' 1,300-yard season; in a two-year sample (2022-2023), Pierce had 824 yards and 37 catches in one year and 1,003 yards in another, described as a 'Taequann Thornton role' but only 'massively upgraded' from Thornton's 19 catches (Pierce had 47 last year). The source notes injury has been a factor in Pierce's fantasy underperformance this year.

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PositiveRole0:03

Pierce is a deep-threat specialist with elite yards per target production; he led the league in yards per target in 2024 and has maintained strong deep efficiency over his last two seasons despite receiving 84 targets last year with a high average depth of target (ADOT). His production is driven by vertical route running and contested catch ability, making him a valuable scheme fit for teams needing deep-ball threats; the source characterizes him as 'one of the best in the league at what he does' and meaningfully better than Taequann Thornton at those specific deep-threat skills, though his role remains limited to vertical routes rather than intermediate/shallow range work.

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PositiveProjection0:03

Pierce's production is highly volatile and dependent on deep-ball catch rate variance; his yards per target leadership is driven by a small sample of 30+ air yard targets (estimated 40-50 balls from his 84 total targets), and his catch rate on those deep balls fluctuates significantly (ranging from 25% to 50%), which creates year-to-year inconsistency. In his first two seasons, his yards per target was very low despite running the same role, partly due to Anthony Richardson's quarterback play, raising questions about whether his recent elite efficiency is sustainable or scheme-dependent. The source notes this is 'the most highly volatile form of wide receiver production' and questions whether Pierce can expand beyond his deep-threat archetype to do what more well-rounded receivers like Tee Higgins accomplish in intermediate and shallow ranges.

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NegativeRole0:03

Alec Pierce's profile centers on contested-catch ability and big-body value on intermediate routes (15-yard comebacks, 15-yard digs) rather than pure separation creation; he has strong hands and can win 50-50 and 70-30 balls, particularly on deeper intermediate routes where he doesn't need separation. The source noted the Colts started using him more on deep dig routes last year and sometimes used him as an inbreaker at 15-17 yards. However, the source expressed uncertainty about whether Pierce can do enough in other areas to be more than a scheme-dependent player, and questioned how much his contested-catch ability would open up the offense differently than other deep threats.

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PositiveUsage0:04

In week one, Alec Pierce showed evolution in his role with Pittman gone; he had six targets, four catches, 61 yards on 29 routes run, with a targets-per-route rate of 24% and an ADOT of 16.7 (down from higher ranges but still high). The source noted Pierce looked like a key part of what the Colts wanted to do offensively and that losing him has hurt the team significantly, as he was one of the best deep threats in the league and the Colts now lack a deep threat entirely.

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PositiveValue1:20

Alec Pierce received significant contract money because of his ability to win on deep shots, a valuable asset in the modern NFL; the source cites Pierce as an example of the market's valuation of field-stretcher profiles that can win in double coverage deep and contested catches downfield.

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NegativeInjury2:55

Pierce is currently dealing with an injury that limits his immediate availability.

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Anthony Richardson

PositiveRole0:03

Richardson's quarterback play in Alec Pierce's first two seasons contributed to Pierce's low yards per target production during that period, suggesting quarterback quality impacts Pierce's deep-ball efficiency metrics.

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Braelon Allen

PositiveRole0:04

Braylon Allen has looked very good for the Jets, prompting the source's hypothetical trade proposal to move Breece Hall. The source noted Allen has been impressive enough that the Jets could afford to trade Hall, though the source expects Hall to still do more in the pass game when he returns while Allen becomes more of a run-game hammer (similar to Kyron Williams or Blake Horm). Allen's yards-per-route-run has been bad compared to Hall's massive rate, but the source suggests Allen may even outperform Horm in a run-focused role.

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Breece Hall

PositiveValue0:04

The source proposed a hypothetical trade where the Jets would send Breece Hall to the Bengals for a 2027 compensatory third-round pick, arguing Hall would be a valuable addition to a team that creates space for running backs. The source noted Hall is younger and better than Chase Brown, very good in space and the pass game, with massive yards-per-route-run metrics. Hall looked sluggish in the backfield early this season but remains dynamic once in space, with strong pass-game skills including a third-and-17 conversion where he juked three defenders. The source believes Hall would thrive in an offense like the Bengals, Cowboys, or Chiefs where he can find space around the line of scrimmage.

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Brenton Strange

NegativeRole5:00

The source mentions Brenton Strange as part of the Rams' tight end depth, indicating he is available for offensive snaps alongside other pass-catchers.

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Brian Thomas Jr.

NegativeRole0:02

Thomas's production has been limited by offensive scheme fit under Liam Cohen; Cohen's offense hyperfeds the middle of the field, which suits quarterback Lawrence but leaves outside wide receivers like Thomas in a role that doesn't maximize his skill set. Thomas's biggest issues have been play strength and catch-point execution, compounding the scheme mismatch.

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PositiveValue0:03

The source expresses desire to see Brian Thomas traded to the Chiefs to pair with Patrick Mahomes, framing it as an ideal fit given Mahomes' historical lack of a large vertical receiver; also notes Brian Thomas had a 1,300-yard season last year, significantly outproducing Alec Pierce's career high of 1,003 yards.

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PositiveProjection0:03

Brian Thomas's ADOT profile has evolved significantly; year one ADOT was inflated by force-fed wide receiver screens and lacked repeatable shallow routes, but last year his ADOT was 14.8 and this year it is 14.2, creating a profile more similar to T. Higgins and prime Courtland Sutton—better than Alec Pierce's higher ADOT. His targets per route run last year was 18.7, and the source views his current trajectory as a well-rounded receiver profile with targets at multiple depths rather than concentrated at one level.

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NegativeProjection1:00

Brian Thomas Jr. is a difficult player to evaluate because his profile is unclear: he looked like a superstar in year one (1,282 yards, 75 yards per game, third in NFL receiving yards) but has been mostly a negative player for the last year and a half; the source notes uncertainty about his caliber within his archetype—whether he is elite, inconsistent, or bad now—though his ball skills, yards-per-target efficiency, and deep-shot ability remain valuable assets.

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NegativeRole1:40

Brian Thomas Jr. is not a good fit for Trevor Lawrence because Lawrence needs to throw between the numbers and struggles throwing outside the numbers; Lawrence was awful throwing outside the numbers in the Denver game, and Thomas' strength as a perimeter downfield receiver outside the numbers is underutilized in Jacksonville's scheme, limiting his volume and efficiency despite his skill set.

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PositiveMatchup2:30

Brian Thomas Jr. would be an excellent fit for the Rams offense; the Rams used Devonta Adams heavily on air yards (over 1,500 air yards in 2025, nearly 100 per game, a top-10 number) but Adams failed to convert those plays vertically, finishing with under 800 total yards despite the volume. Thomas, who can win on deep shots and contested catches downfield, represents the field-stretcher profile the Rams wanted from Adams and would provide the vertical conversion they lacked.

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NegativeProjection3:20

Brian Thomas Jr. demonstrated elite production in his rookie year (1,282 yards, 75 yards per game, third in NFL receiving yards) and maintained 50 yards per game last year despite effort concerns and injuries; compared to Marvin Harrison (52 yards per game year one, 51 year two), Thomas has done more at the NFL level across 37 games, suggesting more legitimate upside than the comparison implies and lower bust risk than Harrison.

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PositiveProjection7:00

The source believes Brian Thomas Jr. has potential as a secondary receiver (not the focal point) with splash-play upside, particularly in an offense like the Rams that can concentrate targets. The source notes his year-one volume with Mac Jones was partly a mirage due to a dead season and small sample, but sees legitimate efficiency and splash-play potential when not the primary target.

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Brock Bowers

PositiveProjection0:05

Brock Bowers was selected 11th overall in the mid-season draft, immediately after Zay Flowers at 10. The source acknowledged Bowers was someone they were also looking at and figured these two players might go in this range, creating a tier of elite receivers and tight ends.

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Carnell Tate

PositiveValue1:20

Cardell Tate went top five in the draft despite some profile limitations; the source notes that while Tate has looked better than expected, top-five capital is significant for a profile with some ceiling issues, particularly for fantasy purposes due to offensive limitations, though the market valued his field-stretcher ability to win in double coverage deep.

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Chase Brown

NegativeRole0:04

Chase Brown, 26 years old, has not been great as a runner and has struggled to find rushing lanes despite the Bengals creating space for their running backs over multiple years. The source noted the Bengals' cap constraints (having paid Burrow, Chase, and Higgins heavily) make them unlikely to want a large running back contract, and that Brown's inability to capitalize on the space created for him is a concern. The source suggested the Bengals could pivot to younger, better options like Breece Hall.

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Clyde Edwards-Helaire

NegativeDepth Chart7:00

The source references Clyde Edwards-Helaire in the context of the 2020 draft, noting that the Chiefs drafted him in that year. This is mentioned as a historical reference point when discussing whether the Chiefs should accept Josh Downs in a hypothetical trade scenario.

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Cody Kessler

NegativeRole6:00

The source mentions that the Rams are starting to play Cody Kessler a little bit and that he has made some catches, suggesting he is getting offensive snaps and contributing to the pass-catching depth.

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Corey Kiner

NegativeRole3:00

The source mentions that the Patriots are trying to make Corey Kiner happen at the running back position, suggesting the team is attempting to develop him as part of their backfield rotation alongside Travion Henderson and Ramondre Stevenson.

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Davante Adams

NegativeRole0:02

The source notes that adding Stafford to the Rams offense creates a different element compared to McVay's scheme alone; McVay's offense is predisposed to slot players, and layering Lawrence (who prefers throwing to specific receivers) on top compounds the role constraints. The source expresses uncertainty about Adams's role in this context.

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PositiveUsage1:40

Adams has stepped up significantly in recent games without Cooper Kupp and Puka Nacua available, demonstrating his ability to handle an expanded role and maintain production when teammates are sidelined.

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NegativeDepth Chart3:00

The source indicates the Rams are unlikely to extend Adams at significant money and suggests he is the most likely player on their list to be traded mid-season. The source argues the team should cut losses and trade him for draft capital rather than keep a disgruntled player while trying to win a Super Bowl, citing locker room concerns and the team's prior decision to invest elsewhere (Jacoby Myers, Travis Hunter, Josh Cameron, Parker Washington, Brenton Strange).

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NegativeRole10:00

The source discusses Devante Adams' role with the Rams and proposes Josh Downs as a potential replacement for the functions Adams was performing. The source notes that while Downs has limitations, he could fill the man-coverage-beating role that Adams provided, though the Rams may not need a direct replacement given their other offensive weapons.

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Davis Allen

PositiveUsage10:00

The source notes that Davis Allen has been catching all the touchdowns for the Rams recently, indicating increased red zone usage and opportunity in the Rams' passing game.

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Garrett Wilson

PositiveValue12:00

The source mentions Garrett Wilson as one of the elite receivers who, if available, would be a complete game changer for the Chiefs and solve all their passing game problems. The source suggests the Chiefs should offer a lot of draft capital to acquire Wilson if the Jets made him available.

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James Cook

PositiveMatchup0:04

James Cook benefits massively from the Bills' passing game, which forces defenses to account for Josh Allen even without dynamic receivers; this opens rushing opportunities and space for Cook to operate. The source views Cook's rushing success as symbiotic with the offensive scheme and Josh Allen's threat level.

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Javonte Williams

PositiveUsage0:04

Javante Williams consistently finds space and creates opportunities through his footwork and field awareness; the source highlighted a play against the Eagles where Williams slammed on the brakes hard in the backfield, causing defenders (Zach Bond and Quinjon Mitchell) to become flat-footed and lose angle, allowing Williams to run through them for 40 yards. The source noted this was an irregular play but illustrative of how Williams operates—he finds space around the line of scrimmage and creates angles once in motion. The source also noted the Cowboys' passing game (CeeDee Lamb, George Pickens) forces defenses into deep areas, creating running lanes for Williams.

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Jonathan Taylor

PositiveValue3:00

The source proposes trading Jonathan Taylor to the New England Patriots for a 2027 second-round pick plus a sixth-round pick, arguing Taylor would make a huge impact on the Patriots roster and open up the deep passing game for Drake May, who is one of the best deep throwers in the league. The source notes Taylor could have an impact similar to Ken Walker with the Chiefs, legitimizing the deep passing attack. However, reporting from Jonathan Jones indicates the Colts believe Taylor would net the biggest return, with NFL folks believing compensation would be a second-round pick or better, though the source acknowledges the Patriots likely say no to this deal due to recent investment in Travion Henderson.

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Josh Cameron

PositiveBreakout5:00

The source describes Josh Cameron as a late-round hit for the Rams, indicating he has been a valuable draft pick or acquisition who is contributing to the receiver depth.

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Josh Downs

PositiveRole0:01

The source highlights Josh Downs' ability to run choice routes and separate against press coverage as a valuable skill set the Chiefs need; his usage in prior productive years (2024-2025) with the Colts—working alongside bigger receivers like Michael Pittman to provide different matchup options against physical corners—demonstrates a clear archetype fit for Kansas City's offensive scheme.

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PositiveValue7:00

The source proposes trading Josh Downs to the Kansas City Chiefs for a 2027 fourth-round pick, noting this is likely to happen and that Downs demanded a trade the Colts were already planning to give him, which reduced compensation. The source believes Downs should be worth a third-round pick but acknowledges he is team-specific due to his 5'9", 170-pound frame and slot receiver profile. For the Chiefs specifically, Downs would address a critical weakness: the ability to beat man coverage on third-and-five situations, which none of their current top three pass catchers can do. The source notes that even in a reduced role last year, Downs was a third-and-five specialist.

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Kareem Hunt

NegativeRole0:04

Kareem Hunt's success rate with the Chiefs last year was inflated by the lack of defenders in the box due to the passing game; once he hit a defender, his production became "three yards and a cloud of dust." The source used Hunt as a cautionary example of how offensive scheme can mask a running back's true ability, contrasting him with more dynamic backs who can create space once in motion.

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Marvin Harrison Jr.

NegativeProjection3:00

Marvin Harrison Jr. dropped from 885 yards and 8 touchdowns as a top-five pick in year one to 600 yards in year two; while he was banged up and his yards-per-game (52 year one, 51 year two) stayed above the 40 YPG rookie benchmark, the source expresses concern that Harrison might not be good enough and could be a bust, especially when compared to Brian Thomas' stronger NFL production trajectory.

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Matthew Stafford

PositiveRole1:30

Stafford is positioned as a quarterback who can make outside wide receivers work effectively, contrasting with Liam Cohen's scheme that typically hyperfeds the middle of the field. This makes Stafford a better fit for players like Brian Thomas Jr., as he will actively target that receiver type.

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Michael Wilson

NegativeProjection4:00

Michael Wilson is grouped with Marvin Harrison Jr. and Brian Thomas Jr. in discussions about receiver class evaluation and draft capital impact on trade value; the source does not provide specific performance or projection details for Wilson beyond this comparative context.

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Mike Evans

PositiveProjection1:00

Evans had a career-high yards per route run under Liam Cohen's offense, demonstrating elite catch-point ability and star-level talent that allows him to thrive even in an offense that hyperfeds the middle of the field—a scheme that typically limits outside wide receivers.

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Nico Collins

PositiveValue12:00

The source mentions Nico Collins as one of the elite receivers who, if available, would be a complete game changer for the Chiefs and solve all their passing game problems. The source suggests the Chiefs should offer a lot of draft capital to acquire Collins if the Texans made him available.

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Parker Washington

NegativeProjection4:00

Parker Washington is grouped with Marvin Harrison Jr. and Brian Thomas Jr. in discussions about receiver class evaluation and draft capital impact on trade value; the source does not provide specific performance or projection details for Washington beyond this comparative context.

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NegativeRole5:00

The source mentions Parker Washington as part of the Rams' tight end and receiver depth, suggesting he is available for offensive snaps and part of the team's pass-catching arsenal.

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Patrick Mahomes

NegativeRole0:03

The source notes that despite Mahomes' early-career success (second quarterback ever to record 5,050 passing yards in a season), he has historically lacked a large vertical receiver; his top receiver was Tyreek Hill, who is shorter than average, and Taequann Thornton is the closest he's had to a true downfield threat.

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NegativeRole10:00

The source notes that Patrick Mahomes was the second quarterback ever to achieve 5,050 passing yards in a season early in his career, and references a hypothetical scenario about getting him a large receiver, suggesting the Chiefs' receiver situation is a topic of fantasy interest.

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Puka Nacua

NegativeRole0:03

Mentioned as a concentrated receiver option for the Rams offense; part of a discussion about quarterback-receiver fit and vertical passing game opportunities.

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NegativeRole9:00

The source mentions Puka Nakua as the focal-point receiver in the Rams offense, contrasting him with Brian Thomas Jr., who would operate as a secondary receiver in that scheme.

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NegativeRole10:00

The source mentions Puka Nacua in the context of the Rams' receiving corps, noting that Nacua can win against man coverage and the Rams have multiple ways to incorporate tight ends and maintain red zone efficiency. The source suggests Josh Downs as a Devante Adams replacement makes sense for the Rams, though acknowledges Puka and the tight ends already provide options.

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Rhamondre Stevenson

NegativeRole3:20

The source describes Ramondre Stevenson as a good third-down back being used in a role beyond his station on the Patriots. The source notes Stevenson is under contract but would be cuttable after the 2025 season with 6 million in savings and only 3.5 million in dead cap, or could be cut as a post-June-1 move with 1.6 million dead cap and 8 million in savings for 2026.

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Tee Higgins

NegativeRole0:03

Higgins is characterized as a well-rounded receiver who operates in intermediate and shallow ranges in addition to deep routes, contrasting with pure deep-threat specialists like Alec Pierce. The source uses Higgins as a benchmark for receiver versatility, noting that while Pierce and Higgins share similar archetypes, Higgins does 'a lot more in the intermediate and shallow ranges' and is 'more of a well-rounded receiver.'

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Travis Hunter

PositiveRole5:00

The source notes that Travis Hunter needs to play more on offense and is doing good things, suggesting he is an emerging offensive contributor for the Rams with upside if given more playing time.

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Tyreek Hill

NegativeRole0:03

Identified as Patrick Mahomes' number one receiver during his early record-breaking seasons; characterized as shorter than average, illustrating Mahomes' historical lack of a large vertical receiver option.

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Xavier Worthy

NegativeRole0:01

Xavier Worthy struggles against man coverage in general, not just press coverage; this limitation constrains his usage flexibility and explains why the Chiefs cannot simply slot him in different alignments to avoid press situations the way they might with other receivers.

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NegativeRole11:00

The source criticizes Xavier Worthy's ability to catch the football, stating 'The issue is Xavier worthy catching passes is when the balls hit him in the hand. He doesn't catch the football. So that's a challenging element of the wider receiver position.' This is raised in the context of the Chiefs needing receivers who can beat man coverage and separate from press coverage, suggesting Worthy cannot reliably do either.

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Zay Flowers

NegativeProjection0:05

Zay Flowers was selected 10th overall in the mid-season draft after the source traded up from pick 12 to secure him; the source believes Flowers belongs in this range. The source noted Flowers has looked like maybe the best receiver in football and has looked insane, though expressed a concern about the overall volume of the Ravens offense. The source acknowledged that when Lamar Jackson returns, it could impact Flowers' volume.

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Full transcript

Episode Transcript

2,683
0:00Breaking down a rest of season draft and a little talk about fictional or potential NFL traits.
0:00That's what we're talking about today on The Long View Podcast.
0:00I'm Ben Gretch. You can find the Stealing Signals newsletter at BenGretch.Substack.com.
0:00With me as always is Jacob Sanderson. You can find the Thinking About Thinking newsletter at Jacob Sanderson.Substack.com.
0:00And Jacob, last night we were fortunate enough to be asked to join Jacob Sanderson.
0:00Ryan Heath over at, I guess, Fantasy Football Today, Beyond the Box Score, an offshoot of one of the CBS podcasts to do a rest of season draft.
0:00Two really sharp guys. You podcast with Ryan over at Fantasy Points with your Dynasty Points podcast.
0:00And I think you guys do multiple podcasts over there.
0:00You have a Rookie Report, all these things. Jacob does incredible work over at CBS, writes their newsletter.
0:00Two sharp guys. We had a blast doing it with them.
0:00We went for over two hours. We did, uh, how many rounds did we end up getting through?
0:00Eight rounds? Eight rounds. Eight rounds. And we did a rest of season draft.
0:00And so definitely go listen to that whole thing where we talked through every pick for eight rounds.
0:00You and I are going to leverage that as our Long View topic today.
0:00To discuss a bunch of the, like, what we're always trying to do is, like, discuss player value in relation to other players.
0:00It's obviously, like, being able to get together with other sharp analysts and do an eight-round rest of season draft would be
0:00something that would be good content and good, um, a good challenge for us to relate player value amongst, you know, other players and debate those things.
0:00If we could do that every single week. We want to leverage it here.
0:00Um, not to, you know, step on the toes of that great content.
0:00Definitely view all that. There's plenty of room for both.
0:00We're going to be, um, talking about some key spots and some key players.
0:00And it's, it's a great opportunity for the Long View stuff.
0:00But one of the, the, the short view thing that you had floated to me or as a potential Long View topic
0:00this week was, Hey, the trade deadline's going up.
0:00Maybe we would do like a draft or go through all 32 teams and suggest a trade for all 32 teams.
0:00And I'm like, look, dude, I don't play Madden a lot.
0:00I don't think about like trade value a lot during the season.
0:00So I, I, I, I was the one who shot down this really fun idea, but I thought it was a great idea for the short view.
0:00So we decided to do that for the short view.
0:00You've compiled a couple potential trades here, like realistic landing spots, realistic deals that could happen.
0:00Pretty fun. Uh, or you wrote not necessarily. Well, they're realistic ish.
0:00They're like, they could happen. I don't think it's, I, some of them, I don't think are necessarily the most likely landing spot.
0:00I kind of just went with the ones that I would like to see the most.
0:00I love it. Yeah. And I think would be, um, you know, I didn't, I didn't make anything like completely nuts or
0:00like implausible, but I kind of, I went more in the direction of what I want to happen and less in the
0:00direction of like, if I was making a bet on where these players would be traded, that it would definitely be my number one pick.
0:00Uh, maybe I'll spin off the all 32 teams idea into an article.
0:00We'll see. I have, I have alternate paths of content creation.
0:00So, but let's, let's rip these. I'll, I'll give them to you.
0:00You let me know, I guess, like which team you think says no.
0:00Um, you know, if, if Ben Gretsch was the GM, um, of either of those respective teams, uh, so you've just been hired.
0:00We've been hired now by like eight teams. We're going to go through four deals.
0:00So congrats. And the best part about this, the biggest reason I, I was like, Oh, my mildly skeptical about your idea
0:00was, it's like, I haven't done any research on contracts or anything like that.
0:00So it's my, me being the GM, I'm a hired GM who also doesn't understand contracts.
0:00It's going to be great. Well, you're going to be like in, in draft day when Kevin Costner makes the trade for the number one pick.
0:00And then he walks into the room. He's like, Hey guys, we just moved up to number one.
0:00And then he like goes to, is it Jennifer Garner?
0:00Who's the capologist that he's also dating. And it's like, do we have the salary cap space for that?
0:00And she's like, yeah, we can make it work.
0:00It's like, good thing you asked that after you made the trade, Kevin Costner.
0:00I, uh, never watched that farce of a movie.
0:00You've never watched draft day. Yeah. Intentionally. Cause I care about myself.
0:00Yeah. I'm you, you have to be the only person that like works in football.
0:00I've met. I've not watched draft day. Really? People, people talk about it every year around the draft.
0:00They're like, Oh, it's time for the annual rewatch.
0:00Then I see other people are like, I tried to watch this finally.
0:00And it was terrible. It was so unrealistic. I had no idea, like no reason to have ever watched it.
0:00And I was like, Hey, that's why I never watched it.
0:00Because don't you find that like the topics that you're too close to, it's like hard to see a fictionalized version of it.
0:00And sometimes, I mean, it's the, it's one of the worst movies ever watched, but I've also watched it six times.
0:00Like I, I find that like, why? Because I find it hilarious how bad it is.
0:00And it's entertaining. So you and I are different in that way.
0:00I find things like that, not frustrating, but not entertaining.
0:00I want to turn them off. And I'm like, this is so terrible.
0:00And, but I get, I get pot committed. I'm like, throw it through it.
0:00You pancake eating mother effort. Like, come on. There's so many, uh, like TV shows that I've started watching and not really realized how bad they are.
0:00And I, I finished watching them. Cause I'm like, I want to know what happens, whatever.
0:00And then I get done and I think back on it.
0:00I'm like, man, that was such a waste of my time.
0:00Like we get our choice of things that we get entertainment, but I can go outside and touch grass.
0:00I can do, like, if I'm going to watch a movie, I want it to entertain me.
0:00I mean, it's, it's like specifically I watched draft day at like 11 PM the night before the draft.
0:00So there's a generational thing here too, because you're younger than me.
0:00It came out when you had, I think my kids were already born.
0:00I had less time by the time it came out where I was at in my life.
0:00It's like, I'm not going to make time for this.
0:00Like you watching it late at night is a different conversation.
0:00I probably would have watched it if I was in college when it came out.
0:00Let's put it that way. All right. Well, our short view topic is not going to be a rewatchables episode on draft day.
0:00Certainly not. Cause I haven't seen it. I would not be a good co-host for that.
0:00All right. Anyways. Okay. First one. I mean, Jonathan Taylor is the, I made these all skill player trades.
0:00I didn't want to like throw out, you know, defensive linemen and stuff at you.
0:00So they're all fantasy eligible. I mean, I think if we were doing the betting odds, the most likely Jonathan Taylor landing spot is the Minnesota Vikings.
0:00If he gets traded, which I'm still a little skeptical.
0:00That happens. There is actually betting odds out there.
0:00Somebody posted the Cal sheet. There's betting odds for everything these days.
0:00Right. Yeah. The odds on Cal sheet, which feels wrong to me.
0:00What are the Vikings as the favorites? Yes. Over the cold is right.
0:00No, no, no. Including the cold. Oh, well, that's incorrect.
0:00That's what I thought too. Staying with the Colts was only 33%.
0:00Going to the Vikings was up into the, like the forties.
0:00And then whoever else was next was lower than the Colts.
0:00And I was like, that's. Well, I'll agree that if he's traded, I think the most likely is the Vikings.
0:00I disagree that he's more likely to be a Viking than a cult.
0:00I mean, even if you think he's over 50% to get traded, like I think that the Colts have to still be the plurality.
0:00Like there's, he could get traded to not the Vikings, you know?
0:00Anyway. Yeah. And this is not, this is not prediction market betting advice, but that was my exact take as well.
0:00Why? I think it's not something that I think is that likely to happen, but I think it should happen.
0:00I want him to go to the New England Patriots and I've, I've as, as GM of the Patriots, I've offered my 27 second.
0:00And then they also have two six. So I've offered one of their six, their additional six they got in the MAPU trade.
0:00I'm tired of watching Travion Henderson. They're trying to make Corey Kiner happen.
0:00Ramondre Stevenson is like a good third down back who I think is being used in a role that's a little bit beyond his station.
0:00They tried to add explosive element with AJ Brown.
0:00I hope that he can get back to what they would have hoped him to be coming off the high ankle sprain.
0:00But to me, this is a team with one of the best quarterbacks in the league.
0:00It's a team that has a potentially like capable passing game with that.
0:00But I just don't think the teams are going to be afraid of their running game at all.
0:00I think that's going to be a big problem for them going into the playoffs.
0:00I think Jonathan Taylor would make a huge impact on that roster and would open up the deep passing game a lot more for Drake May.
0:00He was one of the best deep throwers in the league.
0:00That would be the team. If I could just choose one that I would love to see go all in on him.
0:01And that that's my, that's my proposed trade. But what do you think if you were in charge of the Patriots or
0:01in charge of the Colts, what you would do on this deal?
0:01I think your description of his impact to the Patriots offense with Drake May is a, you know, a very good deep
0:01passer to have a legitimate difference making runner a little bit like the Ken Walker thing.
0:01I mean, that's sort of the take with Taylor, wherever he could go, that he could have an impact like Ken Walker
0:01has with the chiefs, which opened up the deep passing when, you know, Patrick Mahomes had deep receivers that could throw to,
0:01which was namely mostly just Taequann Thornton, who's now injured.
0:01But having said that, my, my guess. So I think the 2027 two plus a six is a Colts fans compensation for what we're starting.
0:01That's a little late. That's a little light compared to like what the insiders are reporting is on the table.
0:01Really? It's on the table. Like, I mean, I've heard that they want to Jonathan Jones.
0:01Well, no, the reporting is that they want a one.
0:01I don't think they're going to get a one.
0:01Jonathan Jones is saying a second would be available if they're willing to trade him.
0:01Okay. And I think, I mean, I think that's fine, but I still think to answer your question, if I'm the Patriots
0:01GM, I'm saying no to this because they have already invested a first round pick a year ago in Travion Henderson.
0:01And I just think it's a lot to invest in the running back position the next, the next season.
0:01But I think he's worth it too. I do think he's worth it too.
0:01I just think for the Patriots, they have like, they're in a position where they have Ramondre Stevenson.
0:01I guess again, he's been paid, right? Stevenson's under contract.
0:01Stevenson's under contract. He's super cuttable after the year.
0:01I mean, I don't imagine they're going to cut him barring like a trade like this, but it's, they're not that committed to him.
0:01He's, I don't know that he's super cuttable after.
0:01Oh, oh, oh. I'm looking at the wrong year.
0:01He is. Yes. Sorry. I was looking at after 2026.
0:01No, or sorry. I was looking at 2026 off season.
0:01This is, yeah, I'm wrong. Anyway, he is cut.
0:01Yeah. He'd be, he'd be, yeah, he would have, it would be 3.5 dead cap, 6 million in savings.
0:01If they caught him after this year. Now, I mean, if they didn't post Jonathan Taylor or sign someone or whatever, like,
0:01I think they will keep him because he's a starting running back, but if they did it, theoretically, if they did this
0:01move, not be hard to get out of Stevenson.
0:01And if they, if they did it as a post June one, his base salary climbs every year of his contract.
0:01It continues to climb. They could do it as a post June one.
0:01They'd only lose 1.6 million. It'd save 8 million next year.
0:01I mean, they probably, they probably, they might do that.
0:01We're thinking at least when they signed him, they would, they would have Travion Henderson to a degree that they could, they would be getting out of this.
0:01I'm sure when they made the Henderson pick, that was what they envisioned.
0:01And the tweet I was referencing, by the way, is from Jonathan Jones is the insider for the athletic former CBS.
0:01He wrote Colts running back. Jonathan Taylor would net indeed the biggest return, which NFL folks believe would be a two plus
0:01Taylor would be the hardest for the team to part with a two plus.
0:01Sorry. Say that again. Our listeners heard it, but I was, he said, he said, um, I, I, I already, I already
0:01clicked away from it, but I'll read out the, no, I'll have it back.
0:01That's my fault. That's great radio. So Taylor Colts running back.
0:01Jonathan Taylor would net indeed the biggest return. This he tweeted basically right after the Buckner trade, um, said would not any,
0:01the biggest return, which NFL folks believe would be a two plus, but Taylor would be the hardest for the team to part with.
0:01Okay. Yeah. That's a little bit NFL folks. That's a little different than the way you framed it, which was, it would
0:01be available that, that to me sounds like, you know, he knows that there's a team that's already made the offer NFL folks.
0:01I would just be pretty surprised if the Colts couldn't, I mean, I don't know if it's me to pay.
0:01I would be surprised if the Vikings haven't offered a two for the, for Jonathan Taylor.
0:01Yeah. Perhaps they have. Um, anyway, I'm not, uh, yeah.
0:01And I think he's probably worth it to you.
0:01I'm fine with it, but, um, to, to the Patriots specifically who invested a first round pick in the running back position last year, it's, I don't know.
0:01I mean, maybe that's not the right way to think about it, but.
0:01Oh yeah. I guess a high second. I was thinking of.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. But is he in their plans? Like, do they, do you think?
0:01Probably not. It's sunk cost. Do you think that they still envision him as like a big part of their plans?
0:01Probably not. It's probably a sunk cost fallacy at this point.
0:01He's not worth that. They couldn't trade him for a two at this moment.
0:01You know, like those, those types of, um, no, there's a little bit of a logical fallacy here, but again, I'm not,
0:01um, I only play an actor on, I only play a GM on TV like Kevin Costner.
0:01I don't actually, uh, know what I'm doing, but I would dance to answer your, uh, framing of, of the short view.
0:01I would say that the Patriots would say no to this, but I don't think they are saying no.
0:01I agree. The Patriots are, I agree with that.
0:01I agree. The Patriots are saying no. I think that they made their move for AJ Brown.
0:01I think there, I think that was the other thing I was thinking.
0:01And then they, they traded booty for like, Oh, like less draft capital than I thought.
0:01Like their trade capital has been negative lately. Patriots fans on my, in my social feeds have been kind of annoyed about
0:01some of the ways they've navigated things. I think it would not look good.
0:01Well, people think booties something he's not. I know that's fair, but a two and a two and a six for a running back right now.
0:01It's not, it's not even to say that it's not right.
0:01Cause maybe I think it is right, but I do think it would make Patriots fans mad is basically what I'm getting at.
0:01Really? Interesting. I think it would be, I think Patriots fans are mad at watching their running backs.
0:01Okay. Maybe that's right. We'll see. I agree that they would say no, but I don't think they should say no.
0:01And I think they, I think they should be in on this.
0:01We'll get, we'll get back to a running back trade at the end.
0:01A wide receiver trade. We'll stay with the Colts for now.
0:01Josh Downs. I mean, this one is to me, the one that I think is actually pretty likely to happen.
0:01And that's Josh Downs to the Kansas city chiefs.
0:01Um, I think I put the compensation at 20, 27, fourth.
0:01I think Josh Downs, it might even be a fifth.
0:01He certainly did his best to reduce the compensation for a trade that was going to happen anyways, by demanding a trade
0:01that they were already going to give him. Um, and, uh, so that's going to hurt on the compensation side.
0:01I'll put a fourth, probably optimistic, but, uh, I, I think that the chiefs would make a ton of sense.
0:01You're you've just been hired by the Kansas city chiefs.
0:01Uh, you can't go back to the 2020 draft, uh, but you can choose to accept or not accept Josh Downs on your team for 20, 27, fourth.
0:01What do you do? Can't go back to the 2020 draft for, is it, was that a Jonathan Taylor?
0:01That's that's the Clyde Edwards. Okay. Yeah. Hilarious. Um, Clyde Edwards.
0:01No, if, if you're the, if you're the chiefs, you're accepting that.
0:01No question. Um, this is one where I'm like, I feel like the, there are other teams that should be willing to
0:01get in on this or potentially offer. Maybe not.
0:01I don't know. Getting up to a third is, is tricky, but, uh, yeah, I think you trade a fourth for downs for sure.
0:01I, I mean, I think he should be worth a third, but I just, the thing with downs is he, he won't
0:01be a fit for every team because like, like for instance, San Francisco, and I think the Rams, although there's been some
0:01reporting to the Rams might be interested. So, so I, I, I've kind of reversed my stance on that, but like San
0:01Francisco, especially is a team that typically they want their F wide receiver to be attached to the formation a lot.
0:01They want to play a bunch of condensed splits.
0:01They want blocking out of that position. Like that's why they loved dribbling for that F role.
0:01They previously had Jennings in that F role. Like, I don't, I don't know that there's a lot of those teams that
0:01like are the more condensed split offenses. Um, I don't know that they want like a five, 970 pound slot receiver.
0:01So I think that he is going to be a little bit team specific.
0:01And then so, but teams that have a need.
0:01Yeah. My issue with the chiefs is all of their dudes are too small and have been like, that's been their issue for years.
0:01They've needed to just get a, a decent size wide receiver.
0:01Like that goes back to size is their problem.
0:01I think it's like man coverage of beating is that their biggest issue.
0:01Yeah. And downs can do that. And none, and none of the rest of their guy, like they need a guy who
0:01on third and five, if a team comes out and plays man coverage can beat man coverage.
0:01And I mean, even in a reduced role last year, like that was, that was downs role on the team.
0:01Basically it was, he was like a third and five specialist.
0:01Um, and I mean, there was the hope he would extend beyond that this year.
0:01And obviously that didn't work out. Um, that would bring something to the chiefs that they still, that they don't have you.
0:01So you, I, I can see our show sheet here.
0:01You have another wide receiver trader we're going to get to, and it's to the Rams.
0:01And I, I talked about this on the CBS pod we did last night where I, the, the downs fit for me
0:01that I like is to the Rams. And if, I mean, the Rams have been willing to trade for veterans a ton.
0:01So I, I, it's like, when we go into the next one, it's intriguing to see what you're looking at there.
0:01But, um, the Rams giving up a fourth for downs makes a ton of sense to me too, to fill the Adams role, to be the man beater.
0:01And especially like in the red zone, um, not that Puka can't win against man and not that they don't have a
0:01lot of ways to incorporate the tight ends and stuff.
0:01And they've still been red zone efficient. I mean, they were last week, Davis Allen's catching all these TDs, but like a
0:01lot of the stuff that Devante Adams was doing.
0:01I mean, maybe they don't need to replace that.
0:01I don't know. And maybe I just said it like they, they already, they can go to 13 personnel and they can
0:01do the different things and they don't need Josh downs.
0:01But downs as a Devante Adams replacement makes sense in my head more even than because there's limitations to downs that, but
0:01maybe, maybe having downs alongside other limited players in like where she rice and Xavier worthy.
0:01When you go to 11 opens things up to some degree, maybe Xavier worthy can suddenly start catching some passes.
0:01The issue is Xavier worthy catching passes is when the balls hit him in the hand.
0:01He doesn't catch the football. So that's a challenging element of the wider receiver position.
0:01Yeah. I mean, the chiefs, like, I mean, I don't know if there is like, I don't have them on this list.
0:01So we can just talk about them. Like in a world where like Garrett Wilson or Nico Collins was available, like that
0:01would obviously solve everything for the chiefs, you know?
0:01And if those teams were willing to make them available, I think the chief should offer a lot, like to find a way to go make that happen.
0:01I don't even know how the cap would work, like whatever.
0:01Maybe that's impossible. But I think like that would be a complete game changer.
0:01In the world of guys who are more likely to be moved, you know, there are everybody has some level of limitation, I think.
0:01But I guess like to me, the number one problem the chiefs have is like, especially in a playoff scenario, especially on
0:01third downs, like they're all of their top three pass catchers share this like same crippling weakness that it just seems like
0:01the way to defend their passing game is pretty easy.
0:01Like you just get up there and you press the shit out of them and you play man in these third down situations.
0:01And what are they going to do about it?
0:01And I just think having one guy who can separate downs beat press.
0:01Well, he's never going to get pressed because you're going to have them in stacks.
0:01You're going to have them on the slot. Like, no, if he's like, he's not even your X receiver.
0:01No, but you can put them in the slot or you can put them in stacks and he can at least beat man.
0:01And then you can't press them. So you like you put out like whoever rice or whatever to eat the press.
0:01Why aren't they doing that with like Xavier worthy?
0:01But like, well, Xavier worthy. It's not just a press issue.
0:01Like Xavier worthy just struggles versus man coverage in general, like even off man coverage.
0:01Okay. And I mean, it's just I think just like, I mean, I'm not like the expert on this, but I at
0:01all, I just like the way that they use downs last year, the way that they've used him in years that he's
0:01been more productive in 2024 and 2025 seems like something.
0:01The chiefs would really need, which is like a guy that can run like those choice routes.
0:01Yeah. I mean, I know down. Downs is good.
0:01The way I think the downs is like you want him as a player alongside other like bigger receivers.
0:01So when you play against teams that do press a lot that have bigger, more physical corners, you can't just get bodied across the board.
0:01Like a lot of times there's like there's teams that can do this, not just like with one corner, but across the
0:01that's how they play across the way. Yeah. And it's like, so then when you had like downs working off Michael Pittman
0:01or whatever, it's like, okay, you have different different styles for different matchups.
0:01Or whatever. And anyway, to me, it's like when you're saying that the chiefs already have this issue of like getting bodied
0:01all over again, a five, nine, 175 pound wide receiver answering that problem.
0:01Like I want, I always wanted them to get T Higgins when he seemed available.
0:01It's like, yeah, go give me T Higgins. Like he'll go win.
0:01Like, you know, yeah, that would be better. That's what I talk about size.
0:01I was like, go get me George Pickens. Go get me somebody that can, you know.
0:01All right. So you'd swap these. Cause I mean, let's just say it's, I have Brian Thomas going to the Rams.
0:01You'd swap them. Do you want Brian Thomas on the chiefs?
0:01I think Brian Thomas to the chiefs is pretty sick.
0:01I hadn't thought of that side of it, but I think I, yeah, I liked downs to the Rams, but I don't know that.
0:01The reason I put it this way is because I don't think the Jaguars are going to trade Brian Thomas in the AFC.
0:01Cause they're trying to win a super bowl this year.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. The, uh, so Brian Thomas compensation you have as a 20, 28, three and a 20, 27, four.
0:01Again, this is like, it's interesting stuff. I have a 27, three.
0:01So that's why I did it that way. Yeah.
0:01This is interesting stuff. I love talking about it with you.
0:01I think it's, it's really fun. Hypotheticals. I'm not the kind of stuff that I have like really strong opinions on, but
0:01this to me is like, it feels light for Brian Thomas.
0:01I feel like that's why they haven't moved him yet is they want more than this.
0:01Are they going to settle for a 20, 28, three and a 20, 27, four, or do they just not move him at that point?
0:01Cause it seems like they still think they're getting like a one.
0:01I think like if they trade him, they're getting handed on shoulder.
0:01Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think they get three and a four.
0:01I mean like in like the, in the like Fitzgerald Spielberger stuff or whatever, like I think a three and a four
0:01would equate to like a pretty early two. Okay.
0:01I wondered if it did. I didn't know it was an early two.
0:01Cause the, I know that the three and the five equates to a mid two, cause that's what the Colts just got for Nelson.
0:01So I haven't like punched in a three and a four, but I would think that would come out to an early
0:01two probably, or at least a mid two. And that's, I guess that, that does make sense.
0:01It seems right away to my brain, like an early two seems wrong because like, I mean, look at like the receivers
0:01that go in the top half of, of round two.
0:01And then go in round three, if you go back and look over the years, like round three guys often just don't even play.
0:01And like early round two guys end up a lot of times being like studs.
0:01That's fair to me. Early round two is like the same as late round one.
0:01You get like the top 20 is round one.
0:01And then the twenties in round one and the first 10 picks of round two was like a block in my mind
0:01of like still really good draft capital. But obviously, I mean, being a first round pick matters more and there's still a
0:01delineation there, but early round two picks are, are, are potentially still superstars.
0:01Top 40 picks. I mean, and then around three, but around three plus a four teams hit on these guys.
0:01And a lot of them become superstars too. So again, not, not something that I spend enough time with.
0:01I think it's a interesting conversation, but so I, the Rams don't have the compensation to do it too is why you did.
0:01Well, they could do it too. They had their two this year.
0:01I guess the reason why I would be surprised if they did the two this year is they don't have a one or a three.
0:01So then they would be down a one and a two and a three.
0:01I mean, that's not the Jaguars problem. They could, they'd say tough break for you guys.
0:01You know, we're on the next team. And that's more or less been the Rams MO for, for like years.
0:01They've done that before. And if you look at the Rams, they do look like a team.
0:01I mean, they're supposed to be all in, right?
0:01Like is Aaron Donald going to play in 2027 is, is Matt.
0:01I mean, how much longer is Matthew Stafford going to play?
0:01Like at a certain point, they probably want draft capital, but they already got criticized for using a first round pick on
0:01Ty Simpson and thinking about the next iteration of this team.
0:01And anyway, why not just go all in? Yeah.
0:01I think, I think BTJ would make sense. I mean, he makes sense for a lot of teams.
0:01He's like, I mean, he's an interesting player in that.
0:01Like compared to. Like Josh Downs to me, it's like very easy to think of like kind of what he would bring
0:01a team, how he could help, where he'd be a fit, where he wouldn't like BTJ.
0:01It's like so hard to know what he is, right?
0:02Like he, he looked like a superstar in year one.
0:02And he's been like, honestly, mostly a negative player for the last year and a half.
0:02So it's like, what are you getting? You know, it's more of like a.
0:02You go back to the prospect profile and he had the 17 touchdowns in the final season working off neighbors.
0:02He didn't have a huge target sprout run rate, which was part of my concern, but he had a really strong yards per target.
0:02And we saw some of that in year one part of why he hit so big late in year one is he
0:02got a lot more volume than I think. I mean, everyone got hurt, even like they still had Evan Ingram and he
0:02was hurt and Christian Kirk was hurt and every single other passing weapon that they wanted Gabe Davis to be a thing that year.
0:02And he got hurt. Every single player was hurt.
0:02And you got Brian Thomas getting like wide receiver screens from Mac Jones.
0:02And then he's got ball and hand ability. He does have per target efficiency.
0:02I think that's what you're getting is an outside wide receiver.
0:02Who's a good player of the ball in the air.
0:02If you can throw it to the boundary and throw it downfield, I think he can clearly win on deep shots, which
0:02is a huge asset in the modern NFL. It's the reason Alec Pierce got so much money.
0:02It's the reason Cardinal Tate went top five, even though I mean, Cardinal Tate's going to be good.
0:02But like top five capital is a lot for a profile that, in my opinion, had some limitations.
0:02He's looked better than I thought he would. But I still think, you know, some some some ceiling issues potentially there for
0:02fantasy because of the offense and all that. But I think a lot of the capital on those guys was this element
0:02of like, hey, we need the field stretchers when defenses are rolling safeties over the top.
0:02The guys that can win, that can win in double coverage deep, that can win contested catches deep are so important to scheme.
0:02Brian Thomas should be able to be that. I think that's still very valuable.
0:02And I think he's still very valuable. The problem, he's not a very good fit for Trevor Lawrence because Trevor Lawrence needs to be throwing between the numbers.
0:02He can't throw outside the number like he literally is.
0:02He was awful in that Denver game outside the numbers.
0:02And I don't know what the issue is with Brian Thomas.
0:02That was the last game Thomas was really like involved and got like a lot of volume or at least as far as I can remember.
0:02He had a couple of plays at the catch point in that game.
0:02Yeah, he had a couple rough plays at the catch point, but he also had a couple plays where he won outside
0:02the numbers and Lawrence threw some bad balls. There was one that was a vertical route and he had room to fade toward the sideline.
0:02He was like just outside the numbers and it was Riley Moss running on the interior.
0:02And Lawrence's throw missed short and on the inside of Riley Moss when he had all this room to miss back toward
0:02the sideline to fade Thomas out of bounds. And Thomas goes and makes that play.
0:02Instead, he had to try to jump over top of Riley Moss.
0:02It's like get the ball to the perimeter. Like what are you doing here?
0:02Anyway, Trevor Lawrence is, you know, not under under the microscope here.
0:02But I do think a little bit of the fit stuff or a little bit of like us not knowing what Brian Thomas is, is the fit stuff.
0:02And the fact that like when he played with Jane Daniels in college, he was a stud on the perimeter downfield outside.
0:02I do think he's still a good wide receiver and provide something even if he is inefficient at times will provide something.
0:02And a lot of it's been effort with the Jags or at least that appears to be the case.
0:02You get him in the Rams. I think the Rams part of the reason I was out on Devonta Adams this year
0:02and I was wrong was that they gave him a ton of air yards last year and he had under 800 total yards.
0:02He had all the touchdowns. He was good in the red zone, but a lot of what they wanted to do with Adams last year was air yards.
0:02Think he had over 1500 air yards last year, which is like almost 100 air yards per game on average, which is a ton.
0:02It's a top 10 number. I don't have the exact details, but it was one of the biggest numbers in the league last year.
0:02Devonta Adams air yards. And he again, he had 800 fewer than 800 total receiving yards.
0:02He was not converting any of those plays vertically hilariously in the first month of this season.
0:02He's suddenly making all these downfield plays again. And I'm like, okay, Devonta Adams, turn the clock back.
0:02He's a superstar. Amazing. But that's, I think what they wanted from Adams 2025 and why they talked early in 2026 about trading him away.
0:02And publicly that became known because they had enough respect for Adams to tell him.
0:02And then obviously his agent knows and his agent leaks it to the reporters and everyone finds out that the Rams are shopping Devonta Adams.
0:02He's hurt now. If you want to replace Devonta Adams, I talked about replacing it in the red zone and with the man beating stuff.
0:02The other way to replace him would be that area and stuff.
0:02They never actually got out of him, which is what you're describing, which was what Brian Thomas would.
0:02I think it is a good fit from that perspective is what I'm getting at.
0:02I see what you're seeing. And when you're saying, I don't know what he is, I guess that's why I'm taking so long to explain this.
0:02I'm like, well, I think he's what they wanted Adams to be last year.
0:02Yeah. In a lot of ways. I know what he is archetype wise.
0:02And that's exactly what I was going for. It was like the way that they used Adams last year, that combination of
0:02red zone and downfield, getting some single coverage opportunities because of Puka, because of all the tight ends, the run game, all that stuff.
0:02Like, I think that the fit is really positive if he's able to play at a high level.
0:02Like, in terms of what, I don't know what he is.
0:02It's like, I don't know how, I just like, don't really know like the caliber of player he is within that archetype.
0:02Like, is he, is he elite? Is he like inconsistent?
0:02Is he like bad now? Like it's, it's hard to say with much certainty, but he's got to be better than scenario is like very tantalizing.
0:02And I think it would be a very, very good fit.
0:02So the, he's gets lumped with Marvin Harrison a lot.
0:02And obviously Michael Wilson and Parker Washington play into this.
0:02And there was a lot of those discussions. I, I had a lot of concerns about Marvin Harrison and obviously you and
0:02I talked about them some during some of our drafts and stuff.
0:02Marvin Harrison. I just think this is, is pretty relevant as a, as a rookie had 885 yards, eight touchdowns as a
0:02top five pick as a guy who's going to get volume and kind of got force fed volume.
0:02And then last year was down to 600 yards.
0:02And I don't know that that was as much effort stuff.
0:02Maybe it was, but like he was, he was banged up obviously too.
0:02Yeah. He missed a lot of games, yards per game, 52 in year one, 51 in year two.
0:02Those are decent numbers for like a young player.
0:02Like I always remember a benchmark from really early on in my career at Roto visit would get bandied about was like
0:0240 yards per game as a rookie. If you're under that, you're kind of done.
0:02If you're over that, you have the chance to grow.
0:02And so being over 50 yards per game, even though he was underwhelming was like, Hey, at least there's some production here.
0:02Brian Thomas's rookie year. He had 75 yards per game.
0:02That's like legit prime aged star stuff. He had 1,282 yards.
0:02I think he was third in the NFL in receiving yards.
0:02If I remember the stat correctly, he looked like he was going to be on a superstar trajectory for sure.
0:02So it's a, it's a dip. Like when we talk about like, we don't know what he is, it is, it is pretty.
0:02And I, um, you said that, but on the show, but I think that that sentiment is shared like across the space.
0:02And then, so last year, even as like he was banged up some, but also like, I think the effort stuff was
0:02a lot clearer with Brian Thomas last year than Harrison.
0:02And he was still at 50 yards per game.
0:02He was right at the same level. Harrison spent both years when Harrison was like arguably trying more in the first two
0:02years is the way that I'm thinking of it.
0:02At least I just think Thomas has done more at the NFL levels where I'm going with this comparison.
0:02I think they get lumped together, but I think there's a lot more reason.
0:02I think that Harrison might just not be good enough and might be a bust that I think there actually is for Thomas.
0:02When you look at, I mean, he's only played 33 games, but the first, or excuse me, 37 games, but the first
0:0217, that first season, he's a 75 yards per game guys at, you know, 1300 yards almost.
0:02And then even last year he was at, you know, 707 and 14 games.
0:02It's not great, but it's, you know, again, it's on par with both of Harrison seasons, but anyway, go ahead.
0:02I'm inclined to agree with you. I mean, my, my guess is that Brian Thomas gets traded for similar or worse compensation than Marvin Harrison was.
0:02But I think that that'll be a mistake. I think that the NFL is going, I don't think that the NFL typically like, I don't know.
0:02Maybe this will sound contradictory, but like my vibe of how kind of the NFL, first of all, I think that the
0:02NFL is actually crazy inefficient with how it handles trade value.
0:02Like overall, I think it's like, I think it's like who gets traded for what relative to their contract status or like position they play.
0:02Or like, I think it's like way out of whack.
0:02And I think it's actually very exploitable in a number of ways.
0:02But why do you think that is? This is a huge tangent, but it's like agents and stuff, right?
0:02Like it's like weird forces. I don't know. I think it's so bizarre.
0:02And I think that there's a reason why GMs like Howie Roseman are like really active on the trade market.
0:02Like it just seems like, like the way that even you hear about it, like if you listen to like Schefter or
0:02Rapsheet or like these different insiders who clearly spend their whole times like very much in this bubble of agent and GM speak all the time.
0:02Like the way that they talk about it is as though they're describing like a formula.
0:02And it's like, well, like if you're this age or you have this contract, you play this position, like the like market compensation is this.
0:02And it's like that like does seem to be an accurate description.
0:02So like I understand if you're Adam Schefter and your job is to communicate how things work to the public, he's probably doing it reasonably.
0:02But every time I listen to this, I'm like that's nuts.
0:02It shouldn't work that way. One of the things in that formula, it doesn't consider, and sometimes it considers like statistics, but
0:02like the actual on-field play doesn't seem to have a big impact.
0:02But draft capital always gets factored in still, even like years later.
0:02And you're like, if they redrafted this, this guy would not go anywhere near where he went.
0:02People would be very concerned about him at that level.
0:02Why are we still sticking that to him three years later?
0:02That's weird. That's why I was like, that's why for like Harrison versus Thomas, for instance, it's like I think that recent play gets factored in a lot.
0:02Like if Thomas was having an amazing season right now, he'd go for a ton.
0:02I mean, he probably wouldn't be traded. But theoretically, if he was in the middle of an amazing season, he got traded.
0:02He's probably going for a lot. But since that season is now like, you know, a year and a half in the
0:02rear view, I think that in the NFL like world, that Harrison's like latent draft capital will carry as much or more sway as Thomas' 1,200-yard season.
0:02I don't think that that's appropriate. I just think that that's what the market will dictate.
0:02It's not just inappropriate. It's fucking insane. A 1,300-yard season.
0:02But do you think that that's off base? No, I don't.
0:02But it's insane. I do think I agree with you.
0:02I agree with your whole perspective that there's these like weird forces or like formulas or things that are impacting the ways that guys get looked at.
0:02And I don't really understand it. And there are inefficiencies to it, in my opinion, what guys can actually give teams.
0:02And I don't understand it as much on the defensive side, but it definitely seems to be consistent on defense and stuff
0:02as well with some of these trades. Because people will talk about that.
0:02I mean, Jeffrey Simmons just got traded for two firsts.
0:02And I was like, I mean, that's like, I know he's awesome.
0:02But like, that's a ton. And I remember when the Seahawks traded for Jamal Adams for two firsts.
0:02And it was like, he's a box safety. He's like, why did he?
0:02But he was like a top 10 overall pick and all this stuff.
0:02But then it was like clear that the NFL was like moving away from his type of player.
0:02Like, why was? Anyway, there's. And Sauce Gardner last year got.
0:02You were not thrilled about that. The Colts gave up two firsts, right?
0:02I mean, I thought that it was like. I thought the Colts were in a position where taking a massive gamble was
0:02reasonable because they were on such a narrow path.
0:02But I thought that it was a pretty big overpay.
0:02Yeah. Yeah. But it's like they needed to make a gamble and they had to pay some market rate.
0:02So they had to they had to live with that.
0:02Right. But yeah, I remember you pointing out that like the NFL, the way that they're playing more as its own and
0:02stuff was kind of going away from like a clear like man.
0:02Right. Star cornerback. Like and so like to pay that much for a guy who's like skill set is being a little
0:02bit deprioritized by the scheme of the NFL and where it's the words moving.
0:02Yeah, it's obviously problems because we've had to then switch to the Superman heavy scheme and then we become like a weak link system.
0:02And then what's happening is like Sauce is doing his job.
0:02Well, he's hurt right now, but he's played very well when he's been on the field.
0:02But like it hasn't really helped the defense actually, because then they just throw in other guys who aren't good.
0:02And it's like unless you have three really good man corners, like it kind of doesn't work to play that system particularly well.
0:02So you have to do it on like unless you have a pass rush.
0:02You have to do it on like half the field, right?
0:02Like that's that's what I recall. The Rams used to do with there's creative ways to do this that are better than what the Colts have done.
0:02But it's they've like whatever values like sauces continue to play quite well in isolation.
0:02And I actually feel bad for sauce because like he didn't choose what he got traded for and people like land based
0:02him and they act like he totally stinks. And it's not true.
0:02He like doesn't stink. He is like often quite good, but it hasn't made the impact on the Colts defense that they obviously thought that it would.
0:02And the way that it hasn't has been somewhat predictable.
0:02Yeah. Anyway, the trade. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the sauce one.
0:02I got us on a huge tangent there, but I agree with the broad point about the trade capital sort of formula being odd.
0:02It does seem like certain teams want to play by their own rules and not follow that trend, which like the Eagles
0:02are like, we're only going to make trade. And we have and like I remember the Browns for a while under Sashi
0:02were doing creative things like they were taking on contracts and things to at least like shuffle things up.
0:02And it like made sense. What was the Brock Osweiler trade where they like got draft compensation to take on Osweiler's contract to help out the Texans?
0:02And then the other one I was going to say is the Jags have Gladstone now as their GM young dude, and
0:02maybe they're trying to do things differently. But I think they're like they're in this spot where they're I everyone talks about it.
0:02They're like they're going to learn that you can't just like devalue the player and still get good draft compensation, although the Cardinals sort of did.
0:02Anyway, I mean, none of it makes sense. The Cardinals got more than I thought they would get for Harrison.
0:02Yeah, I mean, I'm interested. I think if the Jaguars are in an interesting spot because like I would love to have
0:02the true serum on Liam Cohen to talk about this Brian Thomas thing, because and I would also just love to know
0:02what offers were there for Thomas last deadline, because I have to imagine it would have been more just because it would
0:02have been like his awesome season would have been much closer to the time versus now we're a year and a half away from that.
0:02Because it seemed apparent immediately last year like. You know, Cohen tried to use Thomas in the way that best fit his
0:02offense and Lawrence and then found out pretty quickly that that's not really what Thomas is great at, and then they've reverted
0:02to using him in a way that's like more to Thomas's skill set, but in a way that is just never going
0:02to have much production in the Cohen offense, which is like has consistently hyperfed the middle of the field, which is a
0:02great fit for Lawrence who wants to hyperfeed the middle of the field.
0:02But then if you're the outside wide receiver in that offense, like Mike Evans had a career high yards per hour run with Cohen.
0:02He did. He did. Yeah, but he's like, he just like catches footballs better.
0:02Like, like, he's just, he's a star. Right? Like I think that, I mean, Thomas's biggest issue has been like the, the
0:02play strength and like the catch point stuff has not been good.
0:02It's a quarterback thing too. If you have that, I mean, so anyway, that's, that's part of the trade of the Rams.
0:02And so appealing is like Matthew Stafford will make that type of guy work.
0:02Like Matthew Stafford is the quarterback that and Baker and Baker will throw to that guy.
0:02Yeah. Like it's a con, it's a combo. I think of both like, cause Cohen's offenses have been pretty sloth friend.
0:02Like you go back to Wandale in college, you go to Godwin that year with the box, obviously with Parker Washington, you
0:02know, he came from the Rams with Cooper cop.
0:02So there's like a lot of in breakers, but yeah, it's not like he, yeah, you're right.
0:02It's a great point about Evans. And, and obviously like Devante Adams last year had like, you know, he wasn't the featured
0:02guy, but he had a big role. And he's really stepped up, you know, without Cooper or without Pukinokua for a couple of games this year.
0:02But what's your point on, what's your point on Adams?
0:02Just that Stafford. Oh, just like, yeah. Like, even though that's, well, cause McVay, like there's a similarity, right?
0:02With the Cohen offense. Oh, with the offense. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
0:02Yeah. But I'm saying like, when you add Stafford into that, like, I think it gives, it gives you a different element.
0:02Whereas like, with the combination of Cohen, which I think is like predisposed to these slot players anyways.
0:03But then you layer on top of that Lawrence, who is like awesome.
0:03Cause that's the only guy I want to throw to.
0:03Yeah. It's like, like it gets a diaper drive where like Cohen's really good at scheming stuff up over the middle of the field.
0:03That's the only stuff that Lawrence wants to throw.
0:03Oh, and so I think everything just kind of compounds on itself.
0:03But I'm, so I don't know what, like, I don't know what Thomas's role is on the scene.
0:03And like, I guess like they're not going to extend him.
0:03Right. I mean, pretty clearly there. I don't think they're going to extend this guy at big money.
0:03So at some point you're going to let him walk.
0:03And to me, it's like, I think you'd rather just cut your losses.
0:03Even if the return is not great. Cause you have, he seems like he seems the most likely, maybe other than downs,
0:03but the most likely for the guys on your list to get traded.
0:03I feel like they have to deal him. Like it's sort of like you're trying to win a super bowl.
0:03Why do you want a disgruntled guy? Like just move on.
0:03Right. Move on. Yep. Yeah. Better for the locker room.
0:03Get your draft capital. Move on. You're not going to pay him later.
0:03Like do not. You, you just like, you've made your decision.
0:03You've made your bet at this point. Like you, you, you paid Jacoby Myers as well.
0:03Travis Hunter needs to be playing a little bit more on offense and he's doing good things.
0:03Josh Cameron looks like a late round hit. I mean, you're doing, and then you have Parker Washington and you have Brenton
0:03strange and you have some tight end depth that you can do some stuff with.
0:03Like they, they're starting to play cozy hole a little bit.
0:03Our dude, but has made some catches. Yeah. He's been doing some stuff.
0:03Like you've got enough receivers and tight ends and depth that you can, you can get the draft capital back, even if
0:03it's underwhelming and move on from this player. And you kind of need to from the locker room perspective and everything you're
0:03saying, obviously it's not a fit at this point.
0:03Cause it was the same issues last year. And, you know, there was reason to believe that maybe they would be a
0:03little bit better this year, but it went south really quickly in 2026 and he's not even playing.
0:03And it's like, this is, but so when we were just talking about Brian Thomas, the player and what it could be.
0:03I mean, I don't know that he's going to be like a stud volume earner.
0:03I do think there was a little bit of a mirage there in year one with Mac Jones, sort of just feeding him on a dead season, whatever.
0:03And it was a small sample where he was really getting a lot of targets and a lot of volume and hitting on a lot of efficiency.
0:03I do think there's the potential for that a lot of efficiency, a lot of splash plays as not the focal point
0:03of your past game, but that secondary player, which is part of why I love him in an offense that can concentrate
0:03like the Rams, but has Puka Nakua, right? Yeah.
0:03The Chiefs one is really interesting too, though, because it's mostly just like it's fanfic where it's like, can we just get Patrick Mahomes a large receiver?
0:03Like he, even when he was like breaking NFL records early on, or at least tying them, he was the second quarterback
0:03ever to get 5,050 in a season. His number one receiver was Tyree Kill, who was like shorter than me.
0:03Like, I mean, he's never had, he got Taequann Thornton is like the closest thing he's had to like a vertical Paul downfield winner.
0:03And suddenly Taequann Thornton's hitting on like big plays every week.
0:03Like go get him, Brian Thomas, and let him chuck some balls to a dude with a catch radius down the field.
0:03Right? Like, come on. I'd love him on the Chiefs.
0:03I just like, I, I, I really can't envision the Jags as an, like the Colts don't care.
0:03Like they're, they're not going to win anything. So why would they care which conference?
0:03But like the Jags could play the Chiefs in the AFC championship game this year.
0:03I, I can't imagine they want to help the Chiefs.
0:03And that's also probably why T Higgins never made his way over there.
0:03If the Bengals were ever willing to consider things.
0:03Cause I mean, the Bengals were in the Superbowl.
0:03They did win the AFC around that time when people were talking about Higgins or not.
0:03Obviously it was a little later than that, that people were talking about Higgins as a potential trade candidate.
0:03But yeah, anyway, that's a, maybe, maybe we'll get Alec Pierce healthy and rolling next year.
0:03We could trade him to the Chiefs next deadline.
0:03Trade Alec Pierce to the Chiefs. Yeah. Next deadline.
0:03It's going to be nice and healthy. You just want to get rid of his $30 million contract here?
0:03No, I, he's like, if you get him, if you get him healthy, if you get 20, 20, if you get 20,
0:0324, 20, 25 Alec Pierce, that's even helped the Chiefs a ton.
0:03Are you kidding me? Yeah, no, he would. I'm not saying he wouldn't for sure.
0:03He's just, I don't think he's as good as his contract suggests that he is.
0:03I mean, what about 2020? I think he's been a lot better than Brian Thomas on the field recently.
0:03What about 2021 and 2022, Alec Pierce, where he was in the same role, but not hitting on deep throw?
0:03I mean, it was basically just... Well, 2021 and 2022, Alec Pierce, who played for the Cincinnati Bearcats.
0:03I meant 2022 and 2023, but the deep efficiency basically just fluctuated across the two years.
0:03His target rate was the same. Brian Thomas had a 1,300-yard season.
0:03Last year, Alec Pierce's career high was 1,003 yards.
0:03He did get to four digits by three yards.
0:03The year prior, the other one in the two-year sample that you're talking about how good he was, he had 824 yards.
0:03He had 37 catches. I mean, it's a Taequann Thornton role for sure.
0:03It's a better... It's an upgraded Taequann Thornton. I'll give you that.
0:03Massively upgraded Taequann Thornton. I like how that had 19 catches.
0:03Massively? Yeah. Well, he had 38, 37. He had 47 last year.
0:03Yeah, no, massively. Massively. Like, I think you really underrate these receivers in real life.
0:03Which receivers? I'm just underrating Alec Pierce. Like Pierce, Watson, like this group of receivers.
0:03Like, I think from like a real-life utility perspective, I grant your argument about like I wasn't drafting Pierce in fantasy this year.
0:03I mean, a lot of that was injury-related too.
0:03But like I think that these receivers are... I think that this archetype of receiver is better than I think you give them credit for.
0:03Like, if you're comparing Pierce to like Taequann Thornton, he's like really good.
0:03Well, no, no, no. I think he's very good.
0:03I said he's an upgraded version of Thornton for sure.
0:03I think if you put Alec Pierce on the Cincinnati Bengals and you gave him full health, he could do 95% of what Tee Higgins could do.
0:03So, you're saying I'm downgrading the archetype of receiver.
0:03But I'm trying to understand what you're saying because I've consistently said that that's why they've gotten paid because they're so valuable on NFL fields.
0:03And I'm not really saying that about a whole archetype.
0:03But it's like there's specific players that... Like the fact that Alec Pierce doesn't have a 50-catch season and the last two
0:03years has been able to have strong seasons because of, again, deep efficiency, which he's a good contested catch player.
0:03But we know that to be the most highly volatile form of wide receiver production is like it's a small sample in a season.
0:03You get like... He got 84 targets last year.
0:03How many of those were like 30-plus air yards?
0:03I mean, he did have a really high ADOT.
0:03But it's like 40 or 50 balls. And the percentage of those that you're catching, whether that's...
0:03I don't even know what the catch rates are.
0:0340% or sometimes it's the 30% for some guys or it's 25%.
0:03They have a really bad year. Or maybe it's 50%.
0:03If you're up at 50%, then suddenly you lead the league in yards per reception like you did the last two seasons.
0:03And I obviously acknowledge it is... Yards per target.
0:03In 2024, he led the league, yes. Fantastic. But there's also an element of target rate.
0:03Like, his yards per out run or not, like, massively through the roof?
0:03Because he is running vertical routes. There's caveats to it.
0:03I think he's a very valuable player. I think he's a very good player.
0:03I think he adds a ton to his scheme.
0:03He's certainly better than Taequann Thornton. The question of whether to use the word of, like, a massive upgrade on a guy
0:03like Thornton to me is just, like, what... At those specific skills, I think he's meaningfully better.
0:03But, like, Thornton's still good. But my question is, like, what else has he proven that he can do?
0:03Like, so maybe that's what you're talking about with the archetype element of, like, my criticism.
0:03But, like, I'm not trying to be, like, overly critical.
0:03But I do think people forget that, like, in the first two seasons of his career, he was not that good.
0:03His yards per target was very low. And he had basically the same role.
0:03He just didn't catch as many of the deep throws.
0:03Some of that's because Anthony Richardson was his quarterback for some of that.
0:03And, I mean, I think he's one of the best in the league at what he does.
0:03But it's... And it's very good to scheme. But it's...
0:03To make, like, any pass scheme work. I think it would be great.
0:03But, like, to say that he could do 90 or 95% of what Tee Higgins does, I don't know if I buy that.
0:03Higgins does a lot more in the intermediate and shallow ranges.
0:03He's more of a well-rounded receiver to me. But they are similar archetypes.
0:03So then that's my question of, like, what is the archetype?
0:03You mean, like, deep threat-only types? Because I've said that same...
0:03Well, I guess it's... I guess, like, I think that the...
0:03Like, I don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you. But, like, we were talking about, like, get Tee Higgins to Chiefs, whatever.
0:03And I'd thrown out the Pierce example. And, I mean, I know he's literally hurt right now.
0:03So it's, like, beyond hypothetical. But, like, you know, you're talking about...
0:03You're like, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, he'd be an upgrade over the Taequan Thornton role.
0:03Like, I think Higgins is a better player than Pierce.
0:03But I think that the Chiefs... I think Pierce is, like, way closer to Higgins than he is to Thornton.
0:03Like, in terms of, like... Thornton, to me, is, like, a pure, like, situational deep threat.
0:03Like, he's, like, the upgraded, like, apex version of, like, a 2-2 Atwell or an MVS.
0:03Whereas, like, Pierce is, like, a true X receiver who can win on posts, go routes, contested cast situations.
0:03You can also throw hinge routes to him. Like, he can win on the boundary and box out a defender.
0:03Thornton can't do that. He can win on a dig route.
0:03Like, he was hitting on that in a rate in year four that, like, wasn't really part of his toolkit the first few years.
0:03Like, I think you can do a lot more things than just, like, you know, scheme up a go route every now and then.
0:03So, to that point, what... Just, I mean, this is a total tangent.
0:03But just for me to kind of defend what I see as different...
0:03I'm definitely not trying to overstate this stat. There's people that freak out about this stat.
0:03But targets per route run is an interesting one when you think about everything you just said about winning on a lot of different types of routes.
0:03Are you actually winning on enough different types of routes to earn a lot of targets per route?
0:03Or... And then the way that interacts with ADOT.
0:03Because Alec Pierce, the last two years by PFF's numbers, had an ADOT over 20, which is massive, massive.
0:03There's not been... I remember doing my off-season research.
0:03There had only been one other 1,000-yard season. It was Sammy Watkins in the last however many years with an ADOT over 17, even.
0:03Which is like... I mean, three yards less than 20 is a pretty significant gap, obviously.
0:03But Pierce had the 1,000 yards last year. And Sammy Watkins' season was like 1050.
0:03It was, I think, one of the years he was with the Rams.
0:03To have that high of an ADOT means that you're not actually doing a ton in the intermediate and earning volume.
0:03So, Higgins' career low in targets per route run in seven seasons is 18.7%.
0:03He had a 21.2% as a rookie. He's been over 20% four of the seven years, including this year in the smaller sample.
0:03His ADOT fluctuates between like 11 and 14 because he's getting stuff lower.
0:03And then that's why the targets per route run are higher.
0:03Alec Pierce's career high targets per route run last year was 17.4%, below Higgins' career low.
0:03So, meaningfully, a full percentage point and a half below Higgins' career low.
0:03Prior to that, that 2024 season that was also very good, 14.6%.
0:03That's quite low. And for people who don't deal with this stat a ton, if you get down to like 10%, you're basically never getting targeted.
0:03There's five eligible receivers on a route. And a lot of times, not all five of them are out in a route.
0:03So, just by being a receiver out in routes, 20% is sort of like the...
0:03Hopefully, you're getting that on at least some. There are routes where there's not even a targeted player.
0:03So, like, it's not five eligible receivers. They all get 20% because sacks, throwaways, different things.
0:03But like 20% to me is like sort of the benchmark.
0:03It's lower. The benchmark is lower for high ADOT players.
0:03You don't need to earn 25% targets per route when you're a 28-odd player.
0:03I'm not holding him to that standard. But like Alec Pierce's first rookie year was 15.9%, which is good.
0:03But then he went down to 10.4% in year two and he ran 600 routes that year.
0:03It's his highest route total. And then 14... But like some of that Anthony Richardson scheme, whatever.
0:03Mostly, that was mostly Minshew. Okay, Minshew. Okay, that's why it was.
0:03Yeah, it had to have been something because that's a weird outlier.
0:03When I look at these stats, I'm like, that's not even on Pierce.
0:03It's a quarterback. That makes perfect sense. But then 14.6% in 2024.
0:03And then last year was the spike season for him at 17.4%.
0:03Again, not the only number, but in terms of like being a legit X receiver, can you do everything I need you to do, et cetera, et cetera.
0:03That's nothing like what T. Higgins has done. I don't think he can do everything.
0:03I don't think he can do everything. I think he can do more things than Tyquan Thornton.
0:03For sure. But Tyquan, so I pulled up Tyquan Thornton.
0:03So far this year, he's at 15.3%. Last year with the Chiefs in 258 routes, he was at 14.0%.
0:03It's not quite at Alec Pierce. And I said Alec Pierce is upgraded.
0:03But when you're saying like massively upgraded, he also has the really high ADOT like Pierce.
0:03And so I think he's had really strong yards per target the last couple of years with the Chiefs.
0:03If you look at them like from this perspective of like the just the statistical perspective of and I understand there's a lot of ball numbers.
0:03Like if Matt Harmon was listening to this, he'd be like pounding his head on the ground on the table at the
0:03way that I'm talking about these players. So statically about these stats and he'd be right to do so.
0:03But this confluence of like ADOT, targets per outrun, yards per target efficiency, which Thornton has been very, very strong on.
0:03And essentially all those things in relation to each other and how the targets per outrun is going to come up as the ADOT comes down.
0:03Or it's coming up because you're getting more targets in the shallow area.
0:03Like Thornton and Pierce to me are these like not one note deep threats, but similar.
0:03And Pierce has been very efficient. They're really high yards per targets.
0:03But so has Thornton the last couple of years.
0:03So anyway, that's why in my mind they're kind of linked.
0:03I don't even know that I would put Christian Watson fully in that category because like even in the offseason when I
0:03talked about him a little, I was his ADOT the last year has been over 18.
0:03But early in his career, like even as a rookie, it was 14.3.
0:03He's had some years where it was lower. And I don't know.
0:03I guess I had less certainty that he was only a deep threat.
0:03And it also seemed like with Dobbs gone that he would likely have his ADOT come down, which it has.
0:03It has come down. It's more in the 15 range now.
0:03Well, I think also way better ball and hand player.
0:03Like he's a guy you can do some like, you know, that kind of like drag catch and run stuff where if
0:03you can get him moving laterally in space, like he's I think far more of a force with the ball in his hands.
0:03And that was I don't even know if they've done that.
0:03We've done that a bit this year. I feel like the year that they tapped into that most was his rookie year
0:03back with Aaron Rodgers where they used him on a lot of those like shallow crossers and stuff where he'd catch and just run up through the defense.
0:03I remember that a lot. That's right. Yeah. I don't know if it shows up in the stats, but that's the way I think of him.
0:03I remember that stuff. And so it's more just like having watched it.
0:03Similar bit how they use JMO sometimes where he can like be a deep threat, but sometimes he catches like an eight
0:03yard pass and then he turns it into a.
0:03And Higgins fits that for me. Totally. Higgins fits that for me.
0:03These these are these are deep players. They're explosive play guys, but they also do enough in the short and intermediate range
0:03that I'm not sure that out Pierce does specifically.
0:03Now, Brian Thomas is really interesting because you could get into this conversation with him and say, does he do enough?
0:03Because his a dots were very high in college.
0:03I mentioned how that rookie year is a dot was a lot lower.
0:03His targets per run was very high. He was at 24.7 percent targets per out with an 11.9 a dot.
0:03That's like legit number one stuff where you're getting enough short and intermediate and downfield.
0:03So like 11.9 is above average, but not way above average.
0:03When you get way above average, it's like it's because it's an average depth of target and you're not getting enough shallow stuff.
0:03You need actually shallow stuff to get enough targets.
0:03Overall, you can't have this massive a dot be the only thing that you bring to the table.
0:03It's an average. And so like a well-rounded receiver profile is getting targets at all depths.
0:03You can't really have massive target volume at one depth.
0:03I mean, some guys do a lot of stuff shallow, but even that you then you want those guys to get vertical targets.
0:03Like I wanted to see McKay Lemon, his a dot go up.
0:03We're going to talk about him probably a little bit today.
0:03I want to see that go up. We got to see it from Concepciona this week.
0:03His a dot was at 11. They threw downfield to him.
0:03He didn't catch either of the two deep targets that he got, but at least they were showing some intent to do that stuff.
0:03He wasn't quite doing with Lemon yet, but with Thomas that year one, a dot.
0:03I worry too much of it was like force fed wide receiver screens and not actually like shallow in breakers or like actual in, you know, repeatable routes.
0:03And then the very next year, last year, he was at a 14.8.
0:03So far this year was at 14.2. You're talking about similar to, you know, the Alec Pierce, like higher eight.
0:03And then his targets per out run has been lower 18.7 last year, but even that 18.7 at a 14.8, a dot
0:04looks more like, you know, the T Higgins seasons, right?
0:04It's a little bit Sutton. Yeah. Like it's better than Alec Pierce.
0:04Current court and Sutton, by the way, like who is kind of a corpse, but like prime court and Sutton.
0:04It's, it's better than like, I, I, the Pierce is the one where I'm just still like, I don't know if he
0:04can do enough of the other stuff to be more for a scheme than Thornton.
0:04Like if he went to the chiefs, he would be better than Thornton on all of the deep stuff, but Thornton's been very good on it.
0:04But like, he'd be even better. He'd be able to win through double coverages and stuff.
0:04Like he's a very good contested catch receiver. My question would be like, how much would he open up their whole offense
0:04differently than Thornton was already giving them as a deep threat?
0:04He would draw more coverage, I think, because he is like, I think he'd be more of a threat to defensive coordinators.
0:04I think it's the big body stuff with Pierce.
0:04Like there was like, um, they, they started to tap into it a little bit more last year.
0:04They didn't as much previously because Pittman was soaking a lot of that up, but just like, he's a big dude who has really strong hands.
0:04And so even on some of the routes where he doesn't create a ton of separation, you can just kind of like
0:04throw it like on those like 15 yard comeback routes, for instance, like Philip Rivers did this a couple of times where
0:04he just kind of like threw the like saddest ball you've ever seen on the Seahawks game was a great example of this.
0:04Where they came back, they got the field goal to go ahead and they ended up blowing the game, but it was
0:04like third and 10 and Rivers basically just like with ridiculous anticipation, because he knew the ball would take about 15 seconds
0:04to get to the target, just like flung this duck like out to the sideline and Pierce is just running about a 15 yard comeback.
0:04And he had like zero separation, but like he just is big and he just like kind of got the rebound.
0:04And like he can do some of that stuff where it's like he makes those 50-50 balls, 70-30 balls, and that's not only down the field.
0:04They started last year using it more on like deep dig routes too, like running dagger.
0:04And if they would sometimes use like Doolin randomly as the post guy, and then use Pierce as the inbreaker at like 15, 17 yards.
0:04It's like not like short area crossers, but that deeper intermediate area, the like 15 yard comebacks, 15 yard digs.
0:04I think he can do that stuff well. That's what the first...
0:04He has good catch point stuff in traffic, which that's the fear with Thomas.
0:04It's like just the hands, honestly. It's like can you make plays while being contacted consistently enough?
0:04Is it effort? Is it focus? Or is it like a kind of a deficiency?
0:04I'm not sure. Totally. That's fair. And I think Pierce is better in those exact ways that you said, even though I
0:04would still take Thomas overall for a lot of the other reasons we're talking about.
0:04But that's everything you just described. We were actually seeing in week one with Pierce.
0:04I watched... I remember watching... As you were talking through that, I was remembering watching week one and being like, oh, I was wrong on Pierce.
0:04Because I do think there's a possibility that his role could have evolved this year with Pittman gone.
0:04And it looked like he had six targets, four catches, 61 yards.
0:04It was a lower ADOT situation. His ADOT had...
0:04So far this year had come down to 16.7.
0:04Not way up in the 20 range. Still high.
0:04But his targets per run... He only ran 29 routes.
0:04But his targets per run were very high as well.
0:0424%. I mean, they were thrown in the ball.
0:04And he was making plays. He actually looked like a key part of what they wanted to do in week one.
0:04Not having him, arguably, a big part of what has been an issue for the Colts.
0:04It's hurt them a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And even if he hadn't grown into a massive part of the statistical production, it's just like...
0:04It hurts so much when you have... You lose one of the best deep threats in the league.
0:04And then you have no deep threat at all.
0:04They threw that downfield around to Keenan Allen a couple weeks ago.
0:04It was the funniest thing I've ever seen in my life.
0:04Oh, my God. Just the whole scheme. Their deep threat receiver now is Laquan Treadwell.
0:04So it's just beyond Joever. It's so bad. The whole scheme is such...
0:04It was so tied to his health. Yeah. Which gets back to why the GM no longer has a job, probably.
0:04The bilitated ankle. Yep. That is a lie. All right.
0:04I have one more trade. And then we'll get into the draft.
0:04This one, 1,000% fan fiction. It's not happening. But I really want it to happen.
0:04Okay? I'm the New York Jets. I've just called you up.
0:04You run the Bengals now. And I called you up.
0:04I said, hey, look. We think we have two top 15 running backs in the league.
0:04We are happy to keep both of them. But I've been so impressed with Braylon Allen that you can get your hands on Brees Hall.
0:04And I noticed you have two 27 thirds. You have an extra comp pick.
0:04I forget who you lost. But you lost someone.
0:04So you have a comp pick. I'm going to ask for your 2027 compensatory third round pick.
0:04You can get your hands on Brees Hall to come and give you a little jolt to your running game.
0:04Guy who's also really good in the passing game.
0:04What do you say? I think I say yes.
0:04Right? I mean, last year, I criticized the Chiefs quite a bit for not paying the third to get him.
0:04And he was on an expiring contract. They've re-signed him.
0:04He's now cost a lot of money. And yet, like, not...
0:04I mean, it's a running back contract. It's a high contract, but it's not like an insane contract.
0:04And the Bengals... I mean, I guess I don't know enough about the Bengals cap situation.
0:04I know they're going cheap at running back with a day three rookie...
0:04Excuse me. Rookie contract, right? I don't think they've extended Chase Brown.
0:04No, they have not. Cheap, you know, cheap veterans because they've paid Burrow, Chase, and Higgins a ton of money.
0:04And how much can you invest in your skill positions and not have a bad offensive line and a bad defense?
0:04And it's like part of the issue with the Bengals.
0:04It's like, this is a team that probably does not want a large running back contract.
0:04Just structurally. Because you need to allocate resources to offensive line and defense.
0:04Having said that, assuming that, you know, I'm Kevin Costner here and I can just ask Jennifer Gardner after the fact if it works under the cap.
0:04Yeah, she's going to figure it out. She's going to figure it out.
0:04So, yeah, man. I mean, Chase Brown's 26. Like, he's not been great as a runner.
0:04I think he's a very good player. But, like, Brie Saul's the younger player.
0:04And I think better. I think he looked a little bit sluggish earlier this year.
0:04And I do think it's a real concern that Braylon Allen has looked so good.
0:04But Brie Saul's really good in space. He was still very, very good in the pass game.
0:04His yards per hour run is, like, massive right now.
0:04And Braylon Allen's has been bad. I think when Hall comes back, what you're going to see is Hall still do more in the pass game at least.
0:04But Braylon Allen probably be, you know, a run game hammer.
0:04Which is, you know, whatever. Kyron Williams, Blake Horm.
0:04Like, if you get something like that from the Jets.
0:04Although, you're going to get into a much worse offense sort of a thing.
0:04But, like, Allen may even be more than Horm.
0:04Anyway, we'll see how that evolves. The reason I bring that up as far as Hall's fit on the Bengals is it
0:04gets back to this concept of Ken Walker having room to run when he goes to the Chiefs.
0:04Because defenses are going to be in these deep areas.
0:04They're going to defend the pass. Javante Williams is maybe the better example of having space to operate.
0:04And he consistently finds space. Even though he's, like...
0:04I mean, I joked about it in Ceiling Signals this week.
0:04But his big run to the outside late in that game against the Eagles, he completely slammed on the brakes.
0:04And then, like, a huge hole, like, opened up.
0:04Like, the Red Sea. And they called it a stutter step on the broadcast.
0:04I was like, that wasn't even a stutter step.
0:04I've seen stutter steps. Like, running backs chopped their feet.
0:04That was a slam on the brakes where you wind up getting tackled.
0:04Because the opportunity sort of passes. But it didn't pass.
0:04And it doesn't pass. Like, the Eagles run D was horrible.
0:04The Cowboys block it up. But also, like, the personnel that's on the field to stop the Cowboys has to account for
0:04CeeDee Lamb and George Pickens at all times. And so you get running lanes.
0:04You get space. You get opportunities like this. The way I wrote it up was that Javante Williams slammed on his feet
0:04on the brakes so hard that when the lane opened and he started running, both Zach Bond in the inside and Quinjon Mitchell on the outside were unblocked.
0:04And they kind of had their own run fit lanes, whatever.
0:04Like, you know, they had to be where they had to be.
0:04But they both got, like, flat-footed. Because they – and I wrote it as – in my opinion, my read on it
0:04was that they both, from, like, a field perspective, as soon as they saw the running back slam on the brakes that
0:04hard, were like, oh, he's bottled up. Like, they can't see how the angles, you know, through all the massive bodies.
0:04Like, oh, he's bottled up. And then he started running again really quickly through the lane.
0:04And they're like, oh, crap. And they both didn't have an angle.
0:04And it's like, you're both unblocked in the second level.
0:04And he runs right through you guys for, like, 40 yards.
0:04But again, I think it was all because it was just so irregular.
0:04Like, to the degree he just slammed on the brakes in the backfield.
0:04So, I'm saying all that just to say that, like, when these passing games have such dynamic – I was talking about the Chiefs.
0:04So, I'm hesitating to say dynamic receiving weapons because the Chiefs clearly don't.
0:04But Patrick Mahomes has always kind of been defended that way.
0:04It opens up run room. I think this benefits James Cook to a massive way because, like, you're just worried about stopping Josh Allen.
0:04Like, even though they don't have dynamic receivers. And so, James Cook is going to get rushing opportunities.
0:04He's going to find space. And I think it's benefited Ken Walker.
0:04Even though Ken Walker is obviously playing at a massive level too.
0:04I think these things are symbiotic. Like, Ken Walker's missed tackles force rate, massive.
0:04Part of how I would describe that is it's a lot easier to force a missed tackle when you're a 220-pound elite
0:04athlete on undersized defensive back players and second-level defenders than it is to force a missed tackle on, like, a huge defensive
0:04tackle grabbing you in the backfield before you've gotten into some space and you're moving.
0:04It's one of the things that, like, when you're not up to speed yet.
0:04When you're running in space, you can do your cutbacks.
0:04You can do your moves. It's a lot harder when you're getting hit in the backfield.
0:04So, like, once you find that first-level space, then you can create angles and different things.
0:04That's what these guys do. These are really good running backs.
0:04And I think it's had a big effect on Walker even though he's also shed defensive lineman tackles.
0:04Like, there's obviously caveats to the point that I'm making.
0:04But all of that being said, I do think the Bengals create that kind of space for their running backs.
0:04I think they've created it for Chase Brown for a couple of years, and it's kind of a bummer that he's struggled to find those lanes.
0:04The fact that they could pivot to Samaj P.
0:04Ryan and get some decent rushing out of 32-year-old Samaj P.
0:04Ryan is, I think, an evident point to this.
0:04Same way that the Chiefs last year, like, people wanted to be like, Kareem Hunt's actually playing pretty good.
0:04Look at his success rate. And I was like, dude, his success rate's good because there's nobody in the box.
0:04But as soon as he hits a defender, it's the definition of three yards at a cloud of dust, right?
0:04But all of that would fit very well for current Brees Hall, who did look a little sluggish in the backfield at times and getting into space.
0:04But once he's in space, it's still very dynamic.
0:04He looked really – he made some really nice plays in the pass game early this season.
0:04There was one that was like a third and 17 where he juked – he did a cutback that juked three defenders
0:04– I can't remember which game it was, but three guys over pursued.
0:04And he converted a third and long. Three open field tackles that were unblocked.
0:04Juked all of them because of his, like, whatever, dead leg, you know, juke step.
0:04He's good. Like, he's legitimately good at creating space.
0:04And he still has long speed. If you get him up to speed, he can run.
0:04But he just looked a little hesitant at times in the backfield and those things.
0:04But, yeah, get him on the Cowboys. Get him on the Bengals.
0:04Get him on – you know, the Chiefs last year was a big reason I wanted to get him on the Chiefs.
0:04Get him in a place where he can find space around the line of scrimmage.
0:04You're going to see that second-level dynamism, I think, from him.
0:04So he would be a really fun addition to the Bengals if – I'm taking that trade.
0:04I'm giving up a third-round pick for it. As long as Jennifer Garner, my wife and capologist, can fit it all under the cap.
0:04I don't think they're married. I think they're just living in sin in draft day.
0:04Beautiful. I believe. Even better. They have a really nice scene in the closet where they're kind of hanging out and they're
0:04trying to keep things, I think, on the down low.
0:04Anyway, it's a scintillating movie. It's a romance. It's a sports movie.
0:04It's got everything. It's a comedy. It's a drama.
0:04Yeah. Draft Day. Can't beat Draft Day. All right.
0:04That doesn't for the short piece. I would argue that you already admitted we could beat Draft Day by a lot.
0:04In terms of quality, it's hard not to beat it.
0:04Certainly in terms of football moves that make sense, there's never been – it's almost astonishing the degree to which the makers
0:04of Draft Day don't know anything about the NFL.
0:04It's almost like how bad the realism is. But that's part of the charm from a certain perspective.
0:04That was the short view, an hour of trade talk, but a lot of discussion of players moving around.
0:04I'm sure people – a lot of fantasy managers are curious what they should do with a lot of these players, what it could mean.
0:04Brian Thomas, those kinds of guys are available to pick up in some leagues.
0:04What do we think about those guys? What do we think about these teams?
0:04I think that was a fun conversation. For the long view, Jacob, this is our draft.
0:04For people who are watching on YouTube, I've pulled it up here on the screen.
0:04We went eight rounds. We didn't really set any stipulations about what you needed to do or when to pick guys.
0:04One of the things that happened is we started to kind of take some QBs later.
0:04I don't – I mean, I don't think I took a single QB.
0:04I was kind of – oh, no, I ended up taking Jane Daniels way too high.
0:04I was kind of just choosing not to pretend like quarterback – I don't know why.
0:04This is a late night, Wednesday night draft. After doing waivers all day Wednesday, the FFPC waiver deadline hit at 7 p.m.
0:04over here on the Pacific Coast. And we started recording like 15 minutes later.
0:04And I was like – personally, I don't know.
0:04I'm sure you felt somewhat similarly. I'd be curious.
0:04But I was like, you know what? I didn't do a whole lot of preparation.
0:04I'm just going to go in and fly by the seat of my pants a little bit.
0:04But I'm not going to stand by all the valuations that we hit on here.
0:04But – and probably I was saying it a little bit in those last couple rounds.
0:04Probably we should have had some more of the QBs in there in those last couple rounds.
0:04There's some tight ends that we kind of forgot about and stuff.
0:04But there's a lot of running back and receiver discussion and interrelated when guys went that was very, very interesting.
0:04So anyway, your thoughts? I mean, I thought it was a super fun night, first of all.
0:04I had a blast. I hope people go and listen to that show.
0:04I thought we were all in pretty fine form.
0:04And yeah, it was just – it was super fun getting together with a bunch of sharp dudes and kind of thinking through.
0:04I thought that – I thought that it was – that it went pretty in line.
0:04Like, yeah, I mean, I'm sure if I went back with a fine-tooth comb and I got my spreadsheets out, we'd probably move some things around.
0:04But I thought it – I thought it was a fun exercise to see, like, how much we've adjusted, you know, half
0:04of the season, preseason expectations versus what's happening. I thought it was a really fun window of time to do this because
0:04it's coming off of the last two weeks we've had, like, a bunch of rookie breakouts.
0:04And so just kind of seeing how they fell into the mix I thought was a super fun aspect of this and to see how excited people were.
0:04And then I thought it was fun to kind of figure out – like, I get a feel naturally for, like, where the tiers were.
0:04Like, you know, there were certain spots where I found myself feeling like, gosh, like, who am I going to pick?
0:04Like, you know, I can pick anybody. And other spots where I'm like, man, like, there's, like, one or two clear guys.
0:04And then it's really going to drop off at a certain spot.
0:04So a fun exercise, I think, you know, probably people aren't doing midseason drafts.
0:04But, you know, if you're looking at trades, et cetera, you know, listen back to that.
0:04Kind of think through that, like, tier-based system. And from a construction angle, I think it would be very valuable.
0:04So, yeah, where do you want to start? I'll note, too, if people are listening to this in audio form, we'll kind
0:04of walk through some of the picks between whatever ones you want to highlight.
0:04If you're watching this in video form, we have the draft board behind us.
0:04So you can see it. Yeah, it's going to be hard to, like, talk through all of it.
0:04I was thinking as we talked about some. Yeah, we're not going to talk about every pick at all.
0:04Yeah, there's eight rounds. But as we went about 100 picks.
0:04As we highlight some players, we'll talk about some of the players that went around them and those things.
0:04I want to start with Zay Flowers. You hilariously decided to put on your draft day pants and trade up into, I guess, from 12 to 10.
0:04Well, so what we did was there was four of us, and we each drafted three teams.
0:04So I was supposed to draft teams four, eight, and 12.
0:04You were which? Were you two? No, you were three.
0:04I was, yeah, I was three, seven, and 11.
0:04That's right. Right. But I traded. You traded up from 12 to 10.
0:04So you could get. We just ended up swapping teams.
0:04I ended up taking teams five, or ended up taking teams four, eight, and 10, because I really wanted to pick Zay Flowers.
0:05So then Ryan Heath was nice enough to oblige and draft team 12 and stuff.
0:05So, and I kind of gave you a little bit of, like, minor flack there, but I was laughing because the trade
0:05up thing is, you know, we're joking about trading up and, you know, giving away future assets and all of these things.
0:05But it's always an overconfidence thing with trade ups, and I thought it was fascinating because Zay Flowers at 10, to me, is a really interesting discussion point.
0:05I think he's an interesting discussion point from a couple of different standpoints.
0:05One, I think he belongs in this range, certainly.
0:05I'm not saying he, like, should go way later, but I made a comment on the show that basically, like, you traded
0:05up for a guy that maybe could have been available for you.
0:05The first nine picks were Gibbs, JSN, Ken Walker, Bijon, Jamar Chase, McCaffrey, Lamb, Puka Nakua, and Aminor St.
0:05Brown. So that's where we were. I, at 11, behind Flowers took Brock Bowers, who you acknowledged was somebody else that you
0:05were looking at and figured that these two guys might go, and then you wouldn't know who to take at 12.
0:05At 12, Ryan took Malik Neighbors, who I think also very much belongs in this range, even though J.J.
0:05McCarthy is J.J. McCarthy. Because Neighbors has looked really, really good, and I think it's only getting healthier and healthier.
0:05And so it's not like a negative Flowers point as much as I was like the trade up element.
0:05And I wanted to talk about it because you felt like there was kind of a teardrop after him.
0:05And I feel like Flowers has looked like maybe the best receiver in football.
0:05I mean, he's looked insane. But the comment I made to you, and we didn't really linger because we had eight rounds
0:05to do, was that I worry about the overall volume of the offense.
0:05You said a very fair point about when Lamar comes back.
0:05And as you made the pick, you noted he's only played four quarters with his quarterback this year.
0:05I mean, they've barely played together. And he's been great in those quarters.
0:05He looks like he could have 200-yard games every time Lamar's on the field.
0:05So probably I'm overthinking it. But I guess I'm still a little bit in terms of what his real ceiling is.
0:05Because I think he's in this group. And this is what I want to hear you talk through.
0:05Because if you take a guy at 10, if you trade up to take a guy at 10, you're saying, I think
0:05he could be the wide receiver one overall. I mean, you're thinking he could be meaningfully better than a lot of the guys that go ahead of him.
0:05And I think that's fair based on what we've seen, certainly.
0:05You look at the yards per hour run stuff, all of that is very fair.
0:05Other than the part where I'm like, I'm still skeptical of, will there be enough pass volume?
0:05Will there be enough? And I mean, the offenses look great with Declan Doyle, as you pointed out on the show and everything.
0:05But I wanted to get more of your thoughts on the Flowers' pure ceiling with the offense.
0:05Because the per hour run stuff is so, so good.
0:05But then you get into the, like, I get into the projection mindset of if the total volume's not there, and it
0:05really has a tough time getting there because of some of the, like, real systemic things with the way Lamar plays quarterback,
0:05and he's going to scramble some, and all these things.
0:05Then you get into a question of, like, well, can the per hour run stuff continue to be as good as it is?
0:05Or is that destined to be very good, but not elite or out of this world?
0:05And I will counter myself before I kick it to you by saying, that's the reason people were low on JSN, and he has just done it again.
0:05You already stole what I was going to say.
0:05I was like, you sound like all the bros that were like, actually, I would rather have CeeDee Lamb and Amonra over
0:05JSN because he can't keep this up, and regression, and regression, and regression.
0:05But Seattle, so I thought that that's a fascinating one.
0:05But Seattle still had a pocket pass or quarterback, and they didn't play from behind much last year, and there was actually
0:05reason to believe that JSN could offset that. But anyway, JSN is on another level in my mind.
0:05But, I mean, essentially, I guess the question is, is Zay Flowers so good that, I mean, you didn't take him ahead
0:05of Chase and Lamb, but I think Neighbors has, like, a ceiling that's on par with those guys.
0:05But Chase and Lamb's teams are going to throw so much more.
0:05Is Zay Flowers so good that he's right there with JSN in terms of being able to transcend low pass volume by
0:05being that dynamic per route and just dominate his passing game to that level?
0:05I guess your answer is yes. I'm inclined to think yes.
0:05That's my answer. I mean, I've always been, I've always, I would say, been materially higher on Zay Flowers than the consensus,
0:05going back to him as a prospect. I never thought, like, until this moment, like this year, that he was, like, potentially
0:05one of the five best receivers in the league.
0:05So even as someone that's, like, like, what I'm trying to say by that is, like, you know, it's not like I'm victory lap.
0:05I mean, like, I was right all along because I was never saying, like, this is one of the five best receivers on earth.
0:05Like, even as I've continued to be ahead of the curve, I think, on Flowers, he has continued to surprise me with how much he's developed.
0:05And this year, I've been, like, you know, I like Zay Flowers a lot this year, but I didn't rank him at the 110 coming into the season.
0:05So I've obviously been surprised by the degree to which he's taken off.
0:05I do think, though, that he is a guy that has gotten a bit of a bad rap as being, like, a
0:05slot player or a gadget player when he's had the ability to win outside his entire career, even going back to Boston College.
0:05And then he had a breakout season last year in terms of what he could control.
0:05Like, whether you want to look at that through a yards per outrun lens, whether you want to look at that through,
0:05like, Matt Harmon's charting or other film people who have studied Zay Flowers.
0:05I was like, I felt like last year he had made the leap from, like, very good receiver to, like, potentially elite receiver.
0:05And we just didn't quite get the production to go along with that leap in talent because he had to play games
0:05with Cooper Rush and Tyler Huntley and then, like, a very diminished version of Lamar Jackson.
0:05And then this year we get the new OC.
0:05You know, we initially got Lamar healthy, although not for long.
0:05It looked like he was going to go berserk.
0:05And then what's most encouraging to me is that he's actually managed to stay pretty darn productive even with Tyler Huntley.
0:05Like, even with an offense in which Derek Henry's been easily neutralized the last couple of weeks, Tyler Huntley's been whatever.
0:05Like, the one thing in this offense that still consistently worked has been Zay Flowers because I think he's just been that
0:05good and the way that Declan Doyle's been able to, like, really, really intentionally scheme him into space has been very beneficial.
0:05And, like, it's a bit similar to what the Seahawks have done with JSN very intelligently over the last couple of years.
0:05And I don't mean that to discredit them at all.
0:05I think it's actually a massive credit to them that, like, there are players that are so good that they can win
0:05on their own, but also they're so good that their offensive coordinators are deciding, like, no, we're building this whole passing game
0:05around this guy and we're going to consistently cater to put them in the best spots possible to succeed because they earned
0:05that and they're going to be able to do...
0:05They're going to be able to take advantage of their chances more efficiently than anybody else.
0:05So, yeah, I mean, it's been a bit of a small sample in terms of him scoring at this level.
0:05I guess what I would say is I don't think it's necessarily quite as small of a sample of him showing the
0:05capability to do it at this level. And especially when you look at his 2025 season with the proper hindsight of how
0:05his 2026 season has gone so far, and then you see that really weighty contract that the Ravens gave him where I
0:05think they clearly anticipated this breakout coming. Like, it makes sense to me that he would have taken this big of a leap.
0:05And I think that if Lamar can come back and be Lamar, and that is a big if because we saw him
0:05play through injuries last year and it was not great.
0:05So maybe we see the same issues this year.
0:05But if he can come back and be Lamar, like, my confidence level in the offense to score efficiently is immense.
0:05And while I agree that obviously the volume is going to be an issue, I do think that they're going to put up a ton of points.
0:05And they've lost, you know, a couple games here without Lamar.
0:05So I think they're going to have to play aggressively.
0:05And I think that they're well calibrated too. So yeah, I mean, I think he has a chance in a similar way
0:05to JSN to be able to keep pace with the Amonras, the Pukas, the Lambs, and the Chases who are going to throw more.
0:05Because I do think he's that good. I think the offense is, or the passing game at least, is built entirely around him.
0:05And I think the scheme is really positive. The degree to which the passing game has been built around him is, it very much fits the JSN thing.
0:05Even so, I guess zooming out for a sec, I got some feedback in my Signals Gold Q&A this week about our
0:05Lam and Concepcion discussion last week that sort of appeared down on Concepcion.
0:05And then it was asking me to square that with the fact that I was very, you know, when I wrote about
0:05him, I was very optimistic about the prospect profile and thought he looked really, really good.
0:05And people drafted him, stealing signals, subscribers drafted him based on that.
0:05And they're like, wait, why are you acting like he's not good?
0:05And I mean, one of the things that, the reason I'm zooming out is like, one of the things when we talk
0:05about these things is like, Jacob and I are inclined to see things very similarly.
0:05Challenging each other's perceptions on how high we are on certain guys and things does not mean that like the other person is going to be down.
0:05I mean, we argued about Lemon versus Concepcion preseason on this show.
0:05So it's not actually, yeah. So it's like, even though we're probably both higher on both players than most people, it's been a distinction for a while.
0:05It is, it has. But like even last week's, my recollection of last week's conversation wasn't even me being like, you need to be Lemon over Concepcion.
0:05And I'll point out, Lemon had a very good week seven as well, obviously.
0:05He absolutely did. It was me challenging. I remember specific part of the conversation was you talking about Concepcion ahead of Lemon
0:05and me being like, how do you know that?
0:05Like me challenging your perception that Concepcion had already shown more than Lemon.
0:05And we broke that down a little bit where like Concepcion had like a 1.18 yards per out run through last week.
0:05And, and Lemon was way worse at like 0.65 or something.
0:05But I was basically like, they're both, they've both been like somewhat bad and we want them both to be meaningfully better.
0:05And like, I think those are within like error bars of each other.
0:05But anyway, that, that, that, that got perceived as me being down on Concepcion.
0:05I'm just sort of a little bit defensive of because I never intended to be down on Concepcion in a meaningful way.
0:05He's a guy that I love the profile of the prospect profile fits everything that I've always talked about.
0:05Liking a lot of production. You get the draft capital.
0:05He produces it at all the different ways before the catch point ball in hand, all of that stuff that you want
0:05to see, which Lemon does as well. And Lemon, I mean, I went back to their prospect profiles this week.
0:05I mean, lemons is just a little bit better.
0:05It's just the reality of it. His ball in hand is a little bit better.
0:05He did more at a higher a dot. What's fascinating is Concepcion has the higher a dot so far in his breakout
0:05last week, included some vertical stuff and Lemon still didn't.
0:05We still want to see Lemon actually get some intermediate opportunities in this offense.
0:05And hopefully he continues to anyway, though that's, that's a conversation that I, I wanted to circle back on.
0:05Cause I like them both. And I took Concepcion in this draft last night, Jacob ahead of Lemon, but I also ended up taking Lemon around later.
0:05I took Concepcion late six. I took Lemon late seven.
0:05Antonio Williams in between them. So we had, and I think he's almost in a row.
0:05Yeah. And I think he's a really interesting one in that group as well, for sure.
0:05I mean, he would be up there with me or with them for me, but some of the other rookies wouldn't be.
0:05I lemon lemon for me is, I thought was one of the steals of this draft at seven 11, which I mean, I took other guys before him.
0:05Part of the reason I took, like I took Jane Daniels in my pick before, cause we were doing his teams and
0:05I'd already taken four receivers through six rounds on that team.
0:05So I went, you know, a different direction. Um, but Concepcion was the last receiver that I drafted before taking.
0:05Lemon. I think Williams over lemon is justifiable, but I, I want to talk about lemon with you.
0:05Cause I want to get more of your thoughts on lemon because we were doing too much of playing them off each other.
0:05I think to really analyze them both, but similar thing here with flowers.
0:05I I've been very high on flowers as well.
0:05I write the field tippers, a per outrun article at the end of every season.
0:05He was one of the clearest, like highlighted players for me in January or February when I wrote this article where I
0:05was like, this is a guy who's per outrun profile has gotten better every year in each of the different elements.
0:05So he's, he's, he's added targets per outrun and he's added yards per target.
0:05He's continued to be more efficient per target while adding volume.
0:05And that's at, that's included this, this season now so far, like his targets per outrun is up over 30% now.
0:05And his yards per target is now up over like 11.
0:05Like it's absurd. He's been absolutely insane. And he's another one of these guys.
0:05It's really good before and after the catch point.
0:05I actually, we did a stealing bananas this weekend and I got a chance to talk with Siegel a little bit about
0:05Concepcion and he comped him as like a young version of flowers.
0:05These guys are all sort of in the same.
0:05That was a popular comp coming out too. And especially because Monken coached flowers in his rookie season and then inherits and then inherits conception.
0:05So, but part of his question was, can conception be what flowers has been down the field, especially have we seen enough of that yet?
0:05It's a fair, a fair question. But it's also, I mean, I mean, regardless, we're saying conception is a poor man version
0:05of what you just described over flowers is become one of the five best receivers in the league.
0:05He's a superstar. I'm a little bit bombed on flowers.
0:05Part of the reason I do come across a little pessimistic is I was optimistic about him all season.
0:05And when I talk about this, like offensive volume perspective, it was me.
0:05I did this a little bit with my rankings too.
0:05It was me getting a little bit too projections based in my thinking.
0:05And I got a little bit too high on some other guys that went in that range, notably Garrett Wilson.
0:05And a big part of that was just like, again, this projections based thinking where it's like Garrett Wilson's office is going to throw away more.
0:05He's got Gino Smith. And if you go look at his target rates, like Garrett Wilson's had a bunch of seasons with like 140, 150, 160 targets already.
0:05And Zay flowers career high before this year was like one 15.
0:05I mean, it's, that's a lot of targets. It's a big gap.
0:05We, we discussed this on our five K draft on ship chasing.
0:05Uh, me and Leonie were joined, uh, Pat and Pete, obviously you do ship chasing now and I don't, but that's a
0:05league that we, I've done with those guys for, for years.
0:05And, um, Pat wanted to take Zay flowers and, and me and Leonie were both kind of more on Garrett Wilson.
0:05We talked about it a little bit pre draft, but I mentioned those numbers during that draft.
0:05Zay flowers career high was 118 targets last year.
0:05And he played all 17 games and like the gap in targets, the gap in raw targets relative to these really exciting per route numbers.
0:05And I just remember Pat being like, yeah, that's a pretty, that's a lot of targets.
0:05That's a pretty big gap of targets. Like he had to kind of acknowledge that even as he was the one wanting us to take flowers.
0:05And we obviously should have taken flowers. Like I wish I'd taken flowers over Garrett Wilson everywhere.
0:05Right. But I do have some flowers. I had a lot of picks at the end of the first round and we
0:05have some teams where we took flowers and Garrett Wilson, Sean and I, his best team has was a, was a pick from the one 12.
0:05That was a, a Trey McBride, Ken Walker. And then the three, four turn was Garrett Wilson and Zay flower.
0:05So that's a fun, a fun team that we have.
0:05Anyway, I'm saying all that to say that I am very high on flowers and I agree with everything that you said.
0:05I'm kind of challenging you on it because I'm challenging my own miss and kind of understanding it and thinking through it.
0:05And I want to hear your perspective on it.
0:05And I'm just now describing my own thought process.
0:05I agree with everything you said. I think you're right.
0:05And I think, and I was, as you were talking through it and the degree to which you can concentrate the office,
0:05even as I kicked it to you, I said a lot because I was thinking through it.
0:05I'm sure a lot of listeners were like, why don't you let Jacob talk?
0:05But I was thinking through it out loud as well.
0:05But I think it's a fascinating one. Cause it's a guy that I've been very, very high on.
0:05And it's not that I, I even counted as a miss.
0:05I had him as a target. I'm almost certain.
0:05And I drafted him in a bunch of spots, but I wish I had him as like a, a priority target in
0:05every league from, and I could have gotten there with how much I face on, pay attention to the per out run
0:05stuff and was super high on him as early as, you know, my first off season work last year on this past off season.
0:05Anyway, enough recounting of all of that. The reason I wanted to lay all that out to say is I, I agree with everything you said.
0:05I don't have anything to add to it other than as you were talking through it and you were saying, yeah, I
0:05mean, very much like the JSN offense, uh, Seahawks offense, Zay flowers has 38% of his team's receiving yards this year.
0:05And he didn't play one of the games and he left another game.
0:05And he played any, and he played, he left one game at half.
0:05He didn't play one game. And then he played like 20 snaps in another game where he was being load managed in that personal game.
0:06It's crazy. 38% is massive. The stat I kept giving on JSN's last year was that at 43 or 44%, he was
0:06the highest rate of his team's per, uh, receiving yardage, uh, market share of receiving yardage since, uh, Josh Gordon season.
0:06And I believe that's just the games good. Josh Gordon played, or maybe it's not.
0:06I can't remember how absurd Josh Gordon season was, but, um, which was 2013, but what's that?
0:06I said, pretty absurd. His 2013, he only played like 14 games, but he's still like absolutely destroyed.
0:06He has 1600 yards or whatever. Anyway. Yeah. A lot, a lot of thoughts on, on flowers for me that are not saying a lot.
0:06And I'm, I'm just filibustering and wasting time. And I apologize to you and the listeners, but I think what you said about flowers is very fair.
0:06The fact that he has 38% of the, of the yardage, just raw yardage indicates that he's probably, I don't know how
0:06little receiving yards they had when Zay flowers, not on the field, but that the point is it, it emphasizes the point
0:06you were making, which is that when Zay flowers, not on the field, they don't have a passing game, even like they don't have other guys.
0:06And when he is on the field, he's getting all this production.
0:06I think if you had the splits of just plays, when he's on the field, his rate of, you know, his team's
0:06receiving yardage is probably tops in the league, even ahead of Jason, arguably.
0:06Um, cause Jason's right in that same range in the mid forties.
0:06I think flowers, just when you look at just when he's on the field, maybe over 50% of his team's receiving yardage, or maybe approaching that.
0:06Cause again, probably, I mean, probably is, I don't have that exact number, but, um, great take.
0:06I, where I wanted to ask you to go from this further is Almanro went above him.
0:06Yeah. Would you take him over Almanro? I want to go name by name.
0:06Yeah. Puka went two picks before him. Would you take him over Puka?
0:06So no, you took Puka and then you traded up to get flowers.
0:06I took lamb right before Puka. Would you take him over lamb?
0:06No. Okay. Cause I, I had lamb as my wide receiver too.
0:06And I think I stand by that. And I agree with you on Puka, but, uh, our buddy, Jacob Gibbs took chase
0:06as the wide receiver too at one Oh five.
0:06Would you take flowers over chase? Yes. Yeah. I think that's where, I think I might do it.
0:06I had it. I had it. Uh, so are my, my, I was at four and I took Bijon.
0:06So I didn't take a receiver, but I was thinking about receivers obviously.
0:06And I was like, I think if I take a receiver, it would be Puka.
0:06But I, the three that I was thinking about most were Puka, lamb, and flowers.
0:06And I think if I was to do it, if I was, I mean, if I was to tear them out, if
0:06I was doing rest of season rankings right now, I would be JSN one, he'd be in a tier of his own, I think.
0:06And then I would be Puka, lamb, flowers, St.
0:06Brown chase in that order. And all in the same tier.
0:06I would have chase over St. I don't know if I would put neighbors in that tier or not.
0:06You don't even know if you'd have neighbors in that tier.
0:06So that I agree. I think I would have neighbors heading off the next tier, but about top of the next tier.
0:06So I agree with basically everything you said. I would have chase ahead of St.
0:06Brown. I would have chase. Maybe I should too.
0:06Tricky with flowers. It would be tough for me.
0:06Maybe ahead of flowers too. Higgins has been awesome.
0:06Chase has been hurt too, a little bit and banged up and not always out.
0:06But Jamar Chase is so freaking good, dude. When he gets going, he's going to get going, I think in a big way.
0:06And then neighbors to me would be in that tier.
0:06I mean, my only logic on the chase thing would be like, I'm 98% sure that Jamar Chase is still excellent.
0:06I guess like if I'm just breaking ties between wide receivers, all of whom I think are all pro level talents, I
0:06guess I'm just going to take like the heuristic of like, I'll just take the ones who've been scoring the most points.
0:06Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great call.
0:06We talked about that recently with some of the, yeah, it's a year.
0:06It's your, it's, it's, yeah, it's very much something.
0:06I made a great, to me. Yeah. I made a great case that you should just take Joe Johnson based on the points that he's been scoring.
0:06And then look how, look how well that's. You curse that guy.
0:06Joe Johnson should be said to you like, I don't know, like hate mail or something.
0:06That's another one where, I mean, I've been watching what's been happening and I'm just like, God, I, I sound like an idiot and it's, it's fair.
0:06I do. And it's an L. I don't even know if this happened before or after we did our argument.
0:06I really don't, but their left tackle, Kelvin banks going down hurt him big time because I, it's made them even more
0:06reliant on like having to keep tight ends into block and stuff to help chip for them.
0:06But the other thing is the part of the point I was making was there was other context in addition to that,
0:06which is how run heavy they've gone because of Tyler shucks broken hand.
0:06And like, he's going to have some bad games while that happens.
0:06But then I was like, he may have some decent games going forward.
0:06One of the fascinating things late in this game is he got two targets in comeback mode, both batted down at the line of scrimmage, like very late.
0:06And I'm like, man, just catch some passes so I can have some fodder to talk to Jacob about next week.
0:06Both of them got batted down. And then the Steelers got the ball back and ran the entire game out.
0:06And like the saints committed a penalty on their field goal.
0:06And they didn't even get the last minute. And I'm like, that's when Juwan Johnson is going to be on the field
0:06and catching passes is in this final minute. He's going to catch all these underneath balls.
0:06He could have caught like five balls at the end of that game.
0:06They didn't get a last drive. And the drive before the two targets he got, that would have both been short catches,
0:06got batted at the line of scrimmage. So we're just going to pretend like he had five catches last week, all in garbage time.
0:06And it wasn't quite, man, I'm not happy about this.
0:06That's like, that's like nothing. I was stuck in a no win situation of having to argue against the guy that I
0:06put myself in, but I had to argue against the player that I drafted a lot of.
0:06And then now it's like, I get to win, but I'm like sitting here like Thanos, like looking over a world of dead basketball teams.
0:06What did it cost me? Everything. Another miss for me.
0:06Another L definite clear L that I will take.
0:06Flowers was an interesting one. Then, then I took Bowers at one 11.
0:06This is not like a tight end premium, but certainly, I mean, I think, so there's a good question.
0:06You took flowers over Bowers. Do you stand by that?
0:06I think Bowers arguably should have went like one Oh five.
0:06Even in non tight end premium, I mean, that's fair.
0:06I get, I think I, I think I have Bowers ranked exactly where he went.
0:06Interesting. So to, to give some context of like who took some of these early picks, I had the third pick.
0:06I took Ken Walker three. I thought it could have gone a lot of different ways at three, but I do still
0:06think Ken Walker's in a, in a really nice spot and kind of has to be their whole offense.
0:06Lamb would have been the other pick for me.
0:06And I ended up getting him at seven because B John chase McCaffrey went, who are all, I think very justifiable picks.
0:06I'm not down on any of them, but I think lamb and like the lamb chase conversation.
0:06I think chase is probably slightly better than lamb.
0:06I do think the situation is, is slightly better with the Cowboys than the bangles from a team perspective.
0:06And then also just most meaningfully T Higgins is doing the thing that Pickens did last year that these number twos do sometimes.
0:06And Pickens is not, he's not like super engaged right now with the offense or they're like taking him out on run blocking snaps.
0:06Cause he won't block. There's some things going on with Pickens.
0:06I ended up getting Pickens at four Oh two in this draft and I took him, but like, there's a reason Higgins
0:06went higher in this draft, you know, with this group of people.
0:06Um, but lamb, I think has a potential to more meaningfully dominate his, his pass game going forward.
0:06And he looks awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So anyway, I got lamb at seven, but I think I, yeah, I had, I had Walker three.
0:06I w I think I would take lamb four and I think Bowers could arguably be right there with B.
0:06John McCaffrey Puka would have been the other receiver for me as we just discussed, um, in like the top five conversation, not so much chase.
0:06I think powers is right there for me because he's playing wide receiver and he's a stud.
0:06I mean, what are the concerns? I guess the concerns Fernando Mendoza is maybe a concern.
0:06I mean, it's not, I don't really have any concerns with powers.
0:06I think it's more just like, I mean, you look at how the tight ends distributed throughout this draft and obviously, you
0:06know, you go into a, a different hypothetical draft.
0:06Maybe they don't fall this way, but like, I, I, it's, it's one thing to feel great about the running backs, the
0:06receivers going in like rounds four through 10 in August when you're full of hope and optimism, but like, then you get to mid season.
0:06And it's like a lot of the profiles that had upside that got hurt or didn't happen for them or like for various reasons, it's just not happening.
0:06And so pretty much all of the guys you actually want to put in your lineups right now are gone by like round four.
0:06Um, and with that in mind, I'm just like, kind of focus more on taking care of the running back and receiver.
0:06And so why I have Bowers in the elite tier, but I, I would put him at behind the elite.
0:06Cause I mean, I still think that all of the guys who went ahead of him are going to score more raw points than him.
0:06And I don't think it's a positional scarcity advantage is actually providing me that much.
0:06Okay. The second part of that, I disagree with the first part of it.
0:06I think is look at where Tyler Warren went in this draft.
0:06He's going to score more points than the receivers and running backs who are in that round.
0:06Bowers. I don't think it's going to score more points than flowers and St.
0:06Brown and Puka. So the, the first part of what you said that Bowers is going to outright score less than them,
0:06I think is, is interesting and arguably fair. He's averaging 19.5, uh, PPR points per game right now.
0:06McBride's at 18.6. Likely's at 15.8. I think we all have some concerns about likely he wound up going in the seventh round in this.
0:06Yeah. Uh, those guys, I think what's that. I said, he's going to, he's going to regress, but I think likely he's
0:06going to outscore a lot of the dudes who went around.
0:06He should have just been drafted earlier, but like, so setting aside, likely I'm going through the scoring distribution.
0:06Bowers at 19.5. Likely's at 15.8. Kittle's at 15.2.
0:06Warren's at 14.0. You'd probably argue he could score more.
0:06Laporta's 13.2. Now you're all the way down to 11.9 by the tight end eight, which is Mike is sicky, which is
0:06mostly touchdowns, but like there's some, there's some guys in there and they're like 12 to 15 range.
0:06Likely's at 15.8. Um, there's like the 10th tight end is at like 11 points per game.
0:06Like there's, and then a lot of these guys have missed time as well.
0:06Like tight ends missed time. I don't think it's as replaceable as it feels.
0:06I get like, even some of the guys that were hitting early, like Dalton Kincaid immediately stopped scoring.
0:06He's at 10.1 points per game. And I'm not saying that like Warren's not going to score more than some of the receivers are running backs around him.
0:06Like clearly, clearly. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's the way to think about it, I guess is the way that I would go with it.
0:06Cause I was just going to say like, so Bowers at 19.5.
0:06Jason's in an interior of his own. He's at 27.9.
0:06Naku is at 22.7. He's missed a couple of games to lamb at 21.9.
0:06Alman raw, 21.4. Zays at 20.4. And then you're at Christian Watson was at 18.5, but like Bowers is a point to
0:06two points behind Alman Ron Zay 2.4 behind lamb.
0:06He's a little bit behind these guys, certainly, but also these are the receivers that are like meaningfully hitting you.
0:06You can Jamar chase went in the first round.
0:06He's scoring 16.2. So like how much, like there's, there's a touchdown point here as well.
0:06Like Alman raw scored five, lamb scored six, Barris has scored three.
0:06Like, but Bowers in a bad offense. There's a lot of ways you could talk about this, et cetera, et cetera.
0:06The raw points point is interesting. And I think it's fair, but like Bijon's at 20.8.
0:06McCaffrey's at 20.9. Some of the running backs that went earlier, Ken Walker's all the way up at 24.6.
0:06It's part of the reason I took him. He's like, he's the guy scoring a lot of points, but this, this conversation
0:06of like, is he going to, are those guys going to meaningfully score more than Bowers?
0:06Just raw is an interesting conversation. Cause I do think there's going to be meaningful.
0:06Like, I mean, when I was on the clock back at eight, if people want to watch the show, I had said
0:06like, I was like, I think I'm in a shitty spot here because I have four guys that I think are a tier ahead of 12.
0:06And I was like, I don't think any of them are going to come back to me.
0:06And that's why I ended up doing the kind of comical trade-off.
0:06And Bowers was one of those four. Like I felt like he, like, so when I was on the clock and I
0:06picked Puka there, but I felt like any of Puka, St.
0:06Brown, Flowers, or Bowers would have been completely defensible picks at eight.
0:06I felt like that was a clear four. So like, I think Bowers belongs with these guys.
0:06I'm just like kind of similar how, you know, we just talked about the ranking wide receivers and like, I ended up
0:06putting chase at the end, but like, obviously it wouldn't surprise me if chase outscored any of the receivers that I just ranked ahead of him.
0:06They wouldn't know. It wouldn't surprise me if Bowers outscored multiple of these guys, but like, if I'm, if I'm just taking my best guess.
0:06Yeah. I think it's a fair point. Rank him where I think he's going to score in raw points.
0:06And so the other guys are like, guys, I think we'll score more than him.
0:06I'm obviously not sure. That's the question I want to get at.
0:06Cause that that's where I was. The reason I'm listing all these points is not to refute your take that the guys
0:06ahead of him could score more raw points. Cause I think that's a very fair take.
0:06What I want to get at is the tight end replaceability aspect of this that you're talking about.
0:06Cause to me, if you tell me I can get a guy that's scoring similar to all those guys, but I can
0:06put them in my tight end slot. That makes him more valuable.
0:06The way that you just described it to me was that like, that's almost makes him less valuable.
0:06Cause you were like, I want to fill running back receiver.
0:06My, my argument is, and it kind of has been like, I think you should, I think you should draft tight ends
0:06on the basis of, of their raw points. And I think that this aligns with a lot of the war stuff.
0:06Like the, like, I mean, look at this draft.
0:06This is obviously a sample of one random draft and one retort could be, we all drafted tight ends and efficiently, but
0:06like you look at level it on the port on round five, craft and likely in round seven, can Kate and war around eight.
0:06I would wager that the tight ends that we took in each of those, uh, rounds five through eight will be competing
0:06to be the highest scoring players in their round.
0:06Like if I was to just rank out median projection, rest of season, all the players that went around five, round seven,
0:06around eight, I didn't get the tight ends. Like I haven't done it off the top of my head, but I think
0:06the tight ends would rank at or near the top in each of those rounds.
0:06So I don't think that there is a massive opportunity cost in terms of points where like, I'm going to have to,
0:06I'm going to have to take some tight end who scores less than a receiver or running back later.
0:06If I pass on Bowers, I think I'm actually getting a median projection advantage later in the draft by investing in tight
0:06end to the point that like one of my teams, I took McBride here at the two Oh three.
0:06And then I got back up in the eight and I was like, man, like I don't, I don't even want any
0:06of these running backs receivers, but Tyler was still there.
0:06I'm just going to flex them. Well, I think we, I started the show by saying, I think we were collectively as
0:06analysts, maybe undervaluing the onesies a little bit. That's a different take, but whatever.
0:06I, the other thing I would say is at least in my perception, when it comes to actually managing rosters, like the,
0:06the places where I took Bowers in non tight end premium in like the second round, it's so much easier to manage
0:06those rosters than my teams where I'm trying to navigate.
0:06Like I have a team in non tight end premium where I have like Dalton Kinkade and I had Dalton Schultz for
0:06a while and I'm, I'm waiting on Ken and Sadiq.
0:06And I think I added Terrence Ferguson and I've been like rotating those things.
0:06I think I picked up TJ Hawkinson and trying to figure out.
0:06So that the point about like the projection thing or like playing the tight ends, all those tight ends I just named,
0:06I've started them at the wrong times and taken some really low floors.
0:06Meanwhile, on my Bowers teams, like I have a lot of like Michael Wilson at flex.
0:06I have a lot of like guys, like wide receivers that I really want to play.
0:06So like, I guess at this point where some of the receivers that we were like right on went a lot higher
0:06in this draft, it doesn't really play that way from a peer perception, a projection point.
0:06So I understand that. But like when it comes to actually like building my teams, when I've hit on a Bowers scoring
0:06at the level he is on some of my builds, and then I have like a golden or a Michael Wilson as a round eight wide receiver.
0:06Those teams are so easy for me to manage in my actual, I have these teams.
0:06That's why it's hard for me. It's like, it's the actual like experience.
0:06I think it's a different discussion talking about it from a preseason perspective versus the mid season perspective, because I think preseason.
0:06Well, you said you should draft the tight ends based on their scoring level.
0:06And I think that's an interesting thought. Well, I mean, that's, that's what like a lot of the aggregate data would tell you.
0:07And I've, I think in like best ball and stuff that that's the right way to play it.
0:07I've already, I mean, I didn't redraft that you should be a little bit more.
0:07Yeah. You mentioned the war thing. I just want to cut it and say, I personally as an analyst and I've written
0:07about it before, think the war stuff is wrong.
0:07And, and like, I'm just not a fan. I don't believe in it.
0:07I think it's looking at end of season points in a lot of the ways that I just talked about with like the different tight ends.
0:07Like it's going to give Kincaid some value of some scoring level and not account for the weekly variants inherent in like,
0:07Oh, then you started him and then he ended up not scoring.
0:07And it's, it's not the way that I think that, that fantasy is actually played on a weekly level throughout a season.
0:07And then I think it's, it's too, it's descriptive painted as predictive.
0:07And I, I, I've personally never liked it. I could get into a really long conversation with someone about that, but that's,
0:07I, my mind is misapplying the air to the specific.
0:07I've written about that concept before. That would be my counter to that.
0:07Cause you mentioned it twice. I just wanted to say, no, that's totally fair.
0:07I mean, I, I feel like the, like from a best ball perspective.
0:07Also, I think that that's probably the right way to do it is more or less to just play it.
0:07I can't know wide receiver. Or, and I think actually the best ball community has gone too far where they're actually drafting
0:07tight ends that are like, like much later than they project, like where tight ends are just out projecting guys.
0:07From a redraft perspective, the way that I've typically framed my argument around early tight ends is like, if you want to
0:07draft them ahead of where you're projecting to score as a median, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a confidence play.
0:07Like, I think you're kind of saying like, I think I'm going to, at least admit, I'm curious to see if you
0:07agree or disagree with this framing, but the way that I've put it is, I think if you take a Bowers or
0:07McBride or whoever, the tight, early tight end is that year, you're, I think betting on yourself that you are going to
0:07out hit the market in the middle rounds at running back and at wide receiver or on the waiver wire.
0:07Because I think that if you can create enough hits when there's a lot of uncertainty preseason, then the scenario that you're
0:07painting about how, okay, well, I have Matthew golden who was this round eight pick, whatever he's sitting on my bench.
0:07So he's going to be an every week starter for me.
0:07Then that adding that elite tight end, which is something that you really can't find elsewhere, gives you a chance to build that super team.
0:07But like on the aggregate, you know, there's a lot of round four and five and six and seven and eight running
0:07backs, wide receivers who are virtually unsartable. I mean, you could have drafted a bunch of crappy ones that have basically nobody to start.
0:07Or, I mean, you talked about scenarios where you're, you have teams without Bowers and you're like, I'm starting Pat Firemuth this week.
0:07And then he scores four. The next week he's on my bench scoring 20 and TJ Hawkinson's in my last quarter.
0:07I mean, you can kind of say the same thing where it's like, well, you know, the week that I started Jameson
0:07Williams, he scored four, but then I put him on my bench and he scored 20.
0:07And I put, I don't know, whoever, Michael Wilson.
0:07And he've got eight, like this, this stuff can happen to the other positions too.
0:07So I tend to be like willing to bet on myself on the preseason where I, I tend to draft Bowers out of consensus.
0:07I mean, this is where he's going here at the one, two turn is even higher than he was going.
0:07It's even higher than I ranked. Which is way higher than his ADP preseason.
0:07I think that's warranted. He's had a really great season, but I do think from a mid season perspective, especially where there's
0:07probably less edge to be found because we have so much more information that the, that your ability to draft, like, let's look at this Bowers team, right?
0:07Like your ability to draft that super team with Bowers in round one, like your ability to draft a super team period
0:07is strength is frankly way diminished for drafting in week seven, because we know so much more information.
0:07Like, you know, that like, look at your, looking at your team here.
0:07I mean, it looks like a totally, totally solid team.
0:07And you have Pickens, you have Metcalf, nice floor pick.
0:07And then you've added two rookie bets in lemon in Boston.
0:07But like, you know, what you don't have is like Matthew golden in round eight, who is now a guy that we took in round three.
0:07Right. Well, lemon could be that it's a pop.
0:07And he could be that he could be that.
0:07He could be that. I think it's, that's why I dropped that team that way now than when you're drafting guys before
0:07week one, but he could be that. And I think it's a great.
0:07In fairness, that scenario, the, for people who are just listening to an audio, I took Bowers.
0:07I took James cook at two Oh two, which I don't really necessarily love.
0:07I kind of talked about that a little later.
0:07People can listen to the CBS show. I took Jalen Warren in the third, I took scataboo in the fifth.
0:07So I took three running backs in the first five rounds and Bowers.
0:07So it's like a flex running back team that, um, has Pickens, Metcalf, lemon Boston, even, even with everything you're saying about, we know more now.
0:07I mean, even this is a start three wide receiver team, which I think we were all kind of playing it that way.
0:07I'm flexing those. I'm, this is like a hyper fragile running back build.
0:07Like I'm, I'm playing three stud running backs every week in this, but I think this team would be really good with, with Pickens and Metcalf.
0:07It like for a mid season draft with Pickens and Metcalf and two of the receiver slots, lemon in Boston.
0:07And then obviously I would continue to take a lot of wide receiver swings.
0:07Like Jacoby lane didn't get drafted in this. I would take him on this team if I could, or, you know, additional
0:07other, and there's other wide receivers that are like a dunes.
0:07They ended up going later than this, but there's other guys that are running routes that could be more startable.
0:07if anyone's hearing this team and is concerned about like the floor element of it, like Xavier worthy didn't get picked.
0:07Like I could take safety worthy on this team.
0:07And at least, I mean, I've had to play him on other teams.
0:07Like I would, I'd start him. He's if he's my weakest starting lineup spot, it's not the other world, but, but my
0:07point that much better starting Xavier worthy, like as a flex, then you do starting insert waiver tight end as a flex or as a tight end.
0:07That's, that's the question. And that's, and so this isn't even a, really a conversation of like Bowers or, and, and the
0:07point you made about like the different wide receivers can be highly volatile.
0:07That's kind of why I brought up worthy as well.
0:07Cause they can be, and I agree with that point.
0:07I just, I think it's a very interesting philosophical discussion about filling that tight end spot with this type of player.
0:07You mentioned when you, when you talked about Bowers, you know, he went higher than where you had him ranked preseason.
0:07You think that's fair. He's been scoring. It's not just that he's been scoring.
0:07I said, he's been used basically as a wide receiver.
0:07And when you get that type of involvement from a talent like his and a tight end, like designation for fantasy purposes.
0:07And I think this goes for McBride too. I think McBride deserves to go in this range too, even though he's not
0:07playing wide receiver, but the type of involvement for him is also massive.
0:07I just, I think it's worth more that you get to fill it at tight end than just drafting them at the point level.
0:07But that I, I wanted to get your take on that.
0:07I was genuinely asking it. I didn't have like a strong opinion on it.
0:07Oh, well, I guess I do have a strong opinion on it, but I, I, I thought it was interesting that that was your take.
0:07And I, yeah, I think it's a fair, a fair take as well.
0:07I, I mean, I'll probably consider that heuristic going forward that I'd never really probably considered that we should just draft tight
0:07ends at the level that they score points. I think there's a fair point to that, but I, I think for me,
0:07it's still, it's still a positional advantage. I think I do think it's the point you made about insert waiver tight end is an interesting one.
0:07It's also interesting from the perspective of like where the league is going with the more multi-tight end sets and stuff.
0:07And there's just been better waiver tight ends available in a lot of these leagues.
0:07I do have leagues where I've been, I talked about that team where I have Kincaid and Schultz.
0:07I ended up cutting Schultz and I added Terrence Ferguson and I've added Sadiq.
0:07And I'm like, I've been shuffling tight end. I think I added Hawkinson.
0:07If I'm remembering the team, right. And it's like, shouldn't be able to do all that.
0:07You can add Chico Conquo right now. And some of these things I was going to bring up.
0:07Yeah. I think that now there's ways this goes wrong because obviously, you know, whenever we're talking about somewhat marginal talents, even,
0:07you know, best laid plans sometimes don't come to pass.
0:07Like I remember, you know, there was a week where Dalton Schultz was supposed to smash against the Colts and he had like two catches.
0:07Right. So it's like, it's not like it's not like everything is completely predictable, but I do think that there is some
0:07thing to the idea of like, you can stream a workable tight end.
0:07And now you can do this in receiver running back too.
0:07Like, obviously you can, but like, I do think you can do this thing in tight end where it's not even just one guy.
0:07It can be in waves, right. It could be like, you know, Juwan and Schultz were guys early in the season that were really hitting.
0:07And then Hawkinson had that, like, there was a point where Jefferson was out.
0:07And then I think, you know, right now it's like, you could have a tight end room of like, you could have gotten like Higby off of waivers.
0:07And he had a little run there. And I think shake is probably the guy right now who's going to be a guy.
0:07His run ended quickly. And Hawkinson's run ended quickly.
0:07And you can say the same thing about Jeremy Bernard.
0:07And I mean, Ollie Gordon, like when they happen at the other positions, they become more sustainable parts of the offense.
0:07It feels like to me, tight ends a tough one to like pick up a guy and have him be a full season hit.
0:07That's I super tough. Yeah. Unless you get like the breakout, like the fan and you know, last.
0:07Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, he was like drafted in a lot of, I mean, at least in my leagues, I was
0:07rostering him from the beginning of the season. And most of them, he wasn't really a pickup for me.
0:07I had a ton of him, but it was mostly off waivers.
0:07Like, I mean, excuse me off late round draft picks.
0:07Anyway, I very interesting conversation in home leagues, I think was like really tiny.
0:07I think it was like, he was drafted in Ben Gretz's home leagues.
0:07Yeah. I did draft him in my home. And I was like, this is awesome.
0:07He was in FFPC stuff. He was like a hundred percent drafted for sure.
0:07Yeah. Yeah. But FFPC stuff. It'd be tight end premium.
0:07And I would take Brock Bowers. Oh, yeah. He'd be super high.
0:07Three, three. Cause he's still, cause you're talking about scoring.
0:07Love at that point. He's scoring. Yeah. Even if you apply the exact same heuristic that I did, well, his, he gets an extra 0.5.
0:07So he scores more. I, I, I guess part of three, right.
0:07In FFPC. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I don't know.
0:07Yeah. Probably three. He'd be top three. Yeah. He'd be, he'd be top three.
0:07And yeah, maybe two was what I was getting.
0:07That's why I made a little bit of a face there.
0:07It was like, I, yeah. Be like, no, I think you have to take JSN over him still, but man, yeah, it'd
0:07be hard to figure out part of, part of it for me is I think, I guess I think Bowers is going
0:07to like, not just continue scoring, but, but score more.
0:07And maybe that's too optimistic as well, but he's been, he's been good, but he's also been a little bit quiet since that first game back.
0:07And it's like, nothing's changed. He's still running all the routes.
0:07He's still like the clear centerpiece of the past game.
0:07I think they're getting Trey Tucker going in a way that like only unleashes Brock Bowers more, you know?
0:07Like, so the last two weeks he's done 11 and 13.3 PPR points, which are like four games.
0:07He's had 70 yards in his floor games. Like that's what, yeah, that's what like JSN was doing last year.
0:07JSN's floor games were more like 90 yards, but it's like, that's, it's weird that when he's not even like having a
0:07good game, he's still getting you 70 yards. There's really good receivers have down games like Almond, Ron Puka and these guys.
0:07Like he's not, he's in the world. Yeah. And then the, the, the good games have been, you know, 110 yards in a TD.
0:07Maybe it's an element of like, he doesn't have the same ability to have the 30, 40 yard plays.
0:07And then you get the one 50 yard games and the 200 yard games.
0:07Cause he had a 10 catch, 116 yard game.
0:07He had an eight catch 110. Zay flowers is like, yeah, I can take six catches for 250 yards.
0:07So I'll just go do that. Right. He probably can't have two.
0:07He, I mean, he can, but he, he would be less likely to have a 200 yard game, but I mean, Almond
0:07Ross, not that likely to have a 200 yard game.
0:07So, but even he, like his aid out was a little higher last week.
0:07He can still get going a little bit more vertically, probably the Bowers.
0:07Maybe that, that is part of where the scoring anyway, fascinating conversation.
0:07I appreciate your perspective on it. I was genuinely asking, I want to, I want to know about Jacobs.
0:07We've got to talk about Josh Jacobs. He ends up going 401 here.
0:07Uh, Ryan, he took him there and I can't remember exactly how it went.
0:07I feel like I kind of had a negative sentiment on it.
0:07I think Ryan was saying that maybe he could have gone quite a bit higher.
0:07And I thought it was fair, but as we talked through it, like, I don't know.
0:07I mean, Jacobs played a lot. He scored 13 and 15 touchdowns with the, with this Packers in his two seasons with them.
0:07He didn't have a TD in this first game rushing.
0:07That's sorry. Rushing TDs. He didn't have a TD rushing in this first game, but he's probably going to get inside carries.
0:07He did play. They still threw the ball a lot and he did play a lot in the passing game and he
0:07caught a touchdown and he looked pretty solid on it.
0:07He had five catches for 55 yards in a TD.
0:07So we had a strong first game. And then you go look at, yeah, 28 rushing TDs the last couple of years.
0:07You know, I was talking about the high value touches, the receptions and the, and the goal line work.
0:07Like you're talking about a lot of that probably for Josh Jacobs.
0:07Yeah. If what we saw and the fact that like, they still threw the ball to me, isn't actually a problem.
0:07I think it's a better version of the offense for Jacobs.
0:07If they're throwing a ton, cause he'll catch some of the short stuff.
0:07Yeah. He's, he's never gotten that many rushing yards because he's not that efficient.
0:07It's like his, right. His like, he, he accumulates a rushing volume floor, but his ceiling is primarily come through touchdowns.
0:07And so like, to me, it's like it, whether he rushes for 60 yards a game or 40 yards, a game is mostly immaterial.
0:07As long as he has the goal line rushing role.
0:07And if you can add some receptions in exchange for rushing yards, that's a win.
0:07So he went for a one. I took Jalen Warren three 11.
0:07You took chase Brown three 10 and Bucky Irving three Oh eight.
0:07I would still take Warren over him. Cause Warren's been really good, but maybe that's wrong.
0:07I just, I do have some concerns about Jacobs health.
0:07I was going to ask you about Warren. And then I was going to say on, cause I'm sure you would still take your guys ahead of him.
0:07But I would take, I maybe Jacobs over Bucky Brown ahead of them.
0:07I'm not sure. I I'm definitely taking Bucky over chase over.
0:07You love Bucky. You talk about Bucky. Like he's so much more than he is.
0:07He's another one that, and I mean, so much more than he is.
0:07Like, what are you, what do you mean? I know what is this?
0:07It's, he's been great. You think we're still, what, what's, what are we, what are we upset about?
0:07We're going to end up doing the same thing where we're going to end up doing the same thing where I'm going
0:07to wind up sounding very negative about a guy that, I mean, Bucky was the, like, what's to be negative about?
0:07So his rookie season was, uh, I, I had more Bucky than anybody and I love this dude.
0:07And we know that we've talked about him. What, what's to be negative about is the, um, the productivity of the other.
0:07So it's, it's the fact that he's, he's a non elite talent.
0:07He's insanely good at evasion and he's been very good at evasion and he's an efficient runner.
0:07He's not explosive. He got into space in one of those runs in that Cowboys game and showed that the long speed
0:07is just like, you're not going to get a long touchdown, but then he ended up scoring on the very next play.
0:07Cause he does find space very well. But other than that game against the Cowboys, where he had a 31.5 point PPR
0:07game, which I'm not saying you don't count. You count that all of the relevant games like around there, he had 7.8, 6.1, 6.9.
0:07They reflect this concern of like, when circumstances aren't great, he has a lower floor than what I feel like I hear
0:07when, when I hear you talk about him. Now he went, had a 24 point game again last week, but the receiving isn't phenomenal.
0:07It's seven catches week one at four week two.
0:07He's only had seven and five games since the rushing efficiency, is, is astronomical when it's high and he's awesome.
0:07And he's been getting the goal line work, which is awesome.
0:07It's four touchdowns in the last three weeks. I guess I don't think he's going to sustain really, really high touchdown rates,
0:07both because I don't think the offense is that good.
0:07And because of like usage and, well, I mean, I don't know if usage is fair because Tucker's now banged up, but,
0:07and like, I think Bucky's uniquely good at, he should have been getting more goal line work.
0:07Well, I mean, they still use Tucker in the goal line, like in the red zone.
0:07He gets last week, one touch a game, but he gets goal.
0:07Like they use them in short yardage. They literally did that like last week.
0:07If it's at the one, he will sometimes mix in, in a short yard situation, but not all the time.
0:07And, and, and I mean, not even most of the time, if we like zoom out to inside the five or inside
0:08the 10, like he, he has the potential to, but like we took, we took tootin at the 210, which I think
0:08is totally fair, but like Chris Rodriguez is like just as likely to take a random touchdown as, um, yeah, but as
0:08Sean Tucker is probably that, that, that's a really good comp.
0:08The, the, um, common on guys, way more likely than Swift.
0:08I know they have a bigger pie, but the, so I took tootin at 210.
0:08The way I would defend that is facial tootin already has multiple receiving TDs.
0:08I talked about this on the show last night, so I'm just repeating it for you.
0:08But two years ago under Liam Cohen, Rashad white had six receiving TDs tied for the league lead with Devon H and
0:08last year under Liam Cohen, Travis ETN had six receiving TDs.
0:08It was one off the league lead for running backs.
0:08Uh, Christian McAfee had seven last year, but like six receiving tees for running back is meaningful.
0:08Tootin had two very recently, uh, in that London, one of those London games, he almost had a third.
0:08He's going to have like six receiving TDs this year.
0:08Liam Cohen is way better in like dialing up the past game and that stuff.
0:08Then, um, well, like Bucky Irving, the gap in their receiving volume.
0:08And then the other part of it is the explosive run rate or like tootin's long speed is there.
0:08Like tootin's ability. I think Bucky Irving is a Bucky Irving is a better peer rusher.
0:08He's going to be better at like reading holes.
0:08Probably he's going to be more shifting the backfield and stuff.
0:08But when tootin actually gets a blocked up play and breaks it, he's going to be able to house it.
0:08And Bucky's not, Bucky has to be sustainably efficient.
0:08On a lot of runs. And that's why you do see some of the games where he's so low.
0:08Cause he's not an elite athlete. He didn't run a super fast 40 time.
0:08All the reasons everybody was out on him as a rookie.
0:08And I was like, these are overlooking that he's actually a really good player and had a lot of him.
0:08I felt like the market then massively overcorrected. We talked about Bucky on these terms before, and I know you disagree with
0:08them a little bit, but I don't think he's, I think he's an insanely good player, but I think there's limitations to how high he can score.
0:08And so in terms of, can you, can he score like as a top five running back?
0:08I don't know, but I don't think that any of, I mean, like where would you draw the line of guys who
0:08I think have a strong chance of scoring as a top five running back rest of the season?
0:08Like it's what, when we were just talking about Josh Jacobs, the ways that he could score the way, the ways that
0:08he could compile a lot of touchdowns, like 13 to 15 rushing TDs.
0:08Those last couple of years, plus some receiving work.
0:08And then Bucky's offense is way worse than Tuten's as the other.
0:08So like Tuten, you have more explosive playability, I think that's going to be fine.
0:08Like one, one thing that you haven't mentioned with Bucky yet is he played three games with a UDFA rookie at quarterback
0:08who has no interest in checking down. I mean, Bucky had, he averaged five targets per game with Baker.
0:08He had two this week, but they had 11 dropbacks.
0:08So I don't think that this week was like concerning from a target volume perspective.
0:08Very fair point. Very fair point. Bucky's always been like Baker's been good for running back receiving.
0:08That's fair. So like he, he was, and he had a really good receiving profile.
0:08He's always had a good receiving profile to me.
0:08He's averaged 15.7 points per game so far this year.
0:08I would wager. He beats that the rest of the season because he came into the season where they were, you know,
0:08there's concerns about this timeshare with Kenny Gainwell. Those concerns have lessened over time.
0:08Like two weeks ago, they played, what was the game?
0:08It was, who did, who did they play two weeks ago?
0:08It's like, Oh, I have it. I have it.
0:08They played Pittsburgh. But I think it was a close game.
0:08Yeah, it was, it was a close game. It was the overtime game.
0:08Yeah. And Irving played 61 of 73 snaps. He had like completely iced Gainwell from the rotation entirely.
0:08I think Tucker was out that game, but he's only been playing a few snaps.
0:08And then this week, Irving comes out, he gets 10 carries on the very first drive.
0:08And he has 17 carries and two targets by halftime.
0:08Like you're not going to give Irving. So he looks so good on that drive, but he only finished with 110 total
0:08yards in a game where they, they were the run heaviest.
0:08I think of any team since, but they gave him 24 carries.
0:08So like the split is like, well, he's not going to get 35 carries, but that's my point on the efficiency is
0:08you're talking about on the first drive. He had, I can't remember.
0:08I had it in signals. He ran for like 40 or 50 yards.
0:08And I was like, Oh man, this is how good buck he is.
0:08And I'm wrong on him. And then for him to finish where he finished actually, after that first drive in a game
0:08where they had an 18% pass rate, like you're talking about how dominant he is in the backfield, but barely played in the second half.
0:08I mean, they were up by like a million points.
0:08Yeah, but like other running backs do more. I mean, like even in games where their teams put people out way.
0:08That's, I think that's crazy. I think that's like bonkers to me.
0:08Like what other running backs do other running backs do.
0:08What do you mean? Other running backs do more.
0:08Like I, like other running backs, like just convert more long runs.
0:08You mean, or like get more carries. Like he, he got a ton of work.
0:08In a game where a team goes that run heavy and, and, and dominates and puts a team away.
0:08What I'm saying is they compile more while they put the team away.
0:08I can't use that argument of like, they put the team away.
0:08Um, and it was a massive blowout when like he's the running, like, and it was a, a total run heavy scheme and everything.
0:08He scored 24 PPR points with two touchdowns. He had, I mean, he had 110 yards.
0:08I'm saying that like the elite running backs, he took him at three Oh eight.
0:08I'm not saying he has to be compared to like Christian McCaffrey and B John and Ken Walker and those guys.
0:08But like when they hit the, what's relevant is three of the last five games.
0:08He's been under eight PPR points. This is one of the hits.
0:08The 31.5 for Dallas is, is, is a different conversation.
0:08And, and so now I'm kind of parsing in, in weird ways.
0:08But when I say other running backs do, do more, I'm saying like, when they hit, they go for 30, they go
0:08for 35, like in this type of game where you put a team away, where you're running backs, like if you're going
0:08to make the caveat that he didn't play in the second half because they dominated, I think other running backs do more
0:08in those types of game scripts and those types of game flows.
0:08They're just like more dominant in putting a team away in a run heavy game.
0:08Their 18% pass rate was the lowest since that, um, Bill's game Patriots, Bill's game where the Patriots threw three passes.
0:08It's absurd. I just like, it was a running back centric game and they used a lot of Kenny gain.
0:08Well, they used a lot of Kenny gain. because of the total volume, like they came out with the first drive.
0:08They gave Bucky 10 carries. They gave him 17 carries, two targets, the first half.
0:08I don't, I don't view this as like they were planning to split it.
0:08I think it was like, look at the raw number of touches that they were giving Bucky Irving.
0:08There's only so many raw touches you can give someone.
0:08So naturally gain. Well, I was going to play more in that spot than I think he otherwise would have.
0:08Like, that's why I brought up the previous week where it was like at 85, 15 split.
0:08And then this week they're running so much. I mean, we see this all the time where if teams have like an
0:08outlier number of rush attempts, the percentage of rush attempts is going to be allocated more evenly.
0:08And then, you know, eventually they got to the point where, okay, well, we can just put in Sean Tucker in the
0:08fourth quarter and we can move on from both these guys.
0:08Cause this game's in the bag. I, I don't know.
0:08I'm not, I'm not upset by a 24 care.
0:08He was the second highest scoring running back this week.
0:08Yeah. I mean, I, it's a weird point. That's why I'm kind of tiptoeing around it.
0:08But I mean, Josh Jacobs came back. He didn't play that many snaps.
0:08He rushed 11 times for 36 yards and he had 20.1 PPR points.
0:08Like, and I'm not saying Josh Jacobs is even the standard, but there's a reason like the high value touch stuff matters.
0:08And it does, it does impact scoring. Like Jameer Gibbs is a completely different conversation, but he's averaging 29 points per game.
0:08His good games are like 35 plus. The fact that he was the second highest running back score this week is just
0:08evident of the fact that the scoring was down this week, but.
0:08Okay. That's fine. I guess, I think you're holding two things against him.
0:08You're saying, you're saying, okay, on one hand, he should have scored more because it was run heavy game plan.
0:08Then you're saying, well, he doesn't get enough high value touches.
0:08Well, one of the reasons he doesn't get enough high value touches is because they dropped back 11 times in the game.
0:08So how many targets are you going to get as a running back?
0:08Like, yeah, you had two targets, which stinks, but like how many targets are you going to get out of 11 dropbacks?
0:08Like, I don't think they're going to drop. Okay.
0:08Like most weeks. A comparable was, I mean, so, I mean, I'm going to, cause I know like your counter is going
0:08to be like, these are the really best players, but when you take a running back in the third round, you like
0:08me, I would argue you now it's different in mid season drafts.
0:08Cause like, who's even really like fully available to you, but you want a guy who could score with the best players.
0:08And, and a comparable for me would be the first couple of games that Michael Penix was back.
0:08The, the Falcons dominated and they had really, really low passwords.
0:08They were the lowest pass rates, two weeks running the through week four and signals.
0:08I was writing that the two lowest pass rates for any team in any game all season were the Falcons, two games with Michael Penix.
0:08It was the week three and week four wins against the Packers and the saints.
0:08And they dominated both. And in that week four game, Brian Robinson had three rushing touchdowns.
0:08Cause like he, he came in and did everything.
0:08Bichon still had 28 points in that game, which is not that much different than the 24, but the game prior, the
0:08Packers game, he had 35, like, and he had 194 rushing yards and 145 rushing yards.
0:08He didn't finish with one Oh four in a run heavy game plan where his team blew a team out.
0:08Like he was the whole offense. He dominated. And that's what Bucky looked like on the first drive.
0:08That's what I was saying. Like in my notes, I was like, all right, I was wrong about Bucky.
0:08He can do this thing. He can take over a whole game.
0:08And then I go back and look at it at the end.
0:08And I'm like, that's all he finished with 104 yards.
0:08I mean, I, I hear your point. I do think there's a, like it's, it's nuanced, but I do think there's validity to mine too.
0:08It's not really one that I would meaningfully back off of.
0:08I, I don't think you're like way too high on him.
0:08I think he should be valued in this range.
0:08So it's kind of a weird point to be making, but like you were like podium picking him at three Oh eight.
0:08And like, Oh, I'm so happy. And like, I just, it's like, all right.
0:08Yeah. He's fine. He goes in this range. So like Chuba, Chuba Hubbard goes two picks before Bucky Irving.
0:08And like, he had, you know, recent game against Philly, like run heavy game plan.
0:08Right. He gets 19.10. He has 28 rushes for 120 as two targets, one catch.
0:08Like, I don't know. Like, is that, is that a meaningfully better pick?
0:08Like his, his, like his high this year is 25.9, which like is obviously a great game, but like his scoring distribution seems pretty reasonably similar.
0:08It is. And he's not a meaningfully better pick.
0:08And I would have them in the same tier.
0:08I didn't, I didn't take Chuba there. I think he's a good pick.
0:08I think the Jacob ceiling thing, we, we both forgot about Jeremiah love who ended up going in the fourth round.
0:08Yeah. Maybe you would say that love should go ahead of him.
0:08Cause we were thinking about like, like non-injured players.
0:08We're doing this kind of quickly. I think love is one of the guys that can score so dynamically that he could be way ahead of Irving.
0:08Yeah. Uh, I figured I'm saying, yeah, like I figured you would agree with that.
0:08I'm not trying to like, be like, Oh, what about love?
0:08So it's like some of it is like, okay, where was this guy taken?
0:08Where was that guy taken? It's going to be a little bit like different tier type stuff.
0:08And I'm not even saying that like Jacob should be a tier higher than Irving.
0:08But again, it was just this like the, the enthusiasm you had to take everything in the third round.
0:08It's like, to me, it's just like, that's where he goes.
0:08And he's a fine pick there. He's like in this tier with these guys.
0:08I'm not saying he's a bad pick, but I do think there is like a reason.
0:08I mean, there's probably a couple of receivers that I would have, would have preferred to take over him there.
0:08Um, I took Warren a couple of picks later.
0:08I think that's an interesting one. He's probably in the same tier as Irving.
0:08I think you could do the same thing as, um, you just did with Chuba where like, like Warren's top game is,
0:08it was higher scoring that game against the Colts.
0:08He had massive numbers and he only has the two TDs all year.
0:08And so I would probably argue you look at the yardage stuff.
0:08He's, I don't think he has like a meaningfully worse TD equity profile than Irving, but Irving has been hitting on some
0:08more touchdowns, but that probably Warren scoring profiles. He's better with some TDs that he hasn't been getting on more touchdowns.
0:08And so that's a positive regression point from Warren's favors.
0:08He has a fewer touchdowns, but I guess I would also say like Warren had a run where everything broke really well
0:08for him where he got to play without Rico Dowell for several weeks.
0:08And Bucky had to play with a backup quarterback for several weeks.
0:08I like, I don't know. I think you can kind of look at, look at that either way.
0:08I'm, I'm saying they're comparable for sure. I think I would, I would maybe lean Warren, but like I took Warren a few picks later.
0:08My point is like, Chase Brown was still on the board.
0:08You took Chase Brown later. Like all of these guys are similar to Bucky.
0:08And I guess I was just trying to get your feel.
0:08And it sounds like you just really liked Bucky.
0:08You, you described him as one of your favorite players.
0:08I don't think Bucky is in a different tier than these guys.
0:08Yeah. I mean, I think he was like, I definitely prefer him than the running backs that I took him ahead of,
0:08but I know I don't think he was like, I got, when I took him, I wasn't like, Oh, this guy should
0:08have gone in round two or whatever. It's more just like, I was just excited that, um, that one of my favorite
0:08players in the league was my top ranked player.
0:08And that I got the chance to pick him.
0:08Yeah. He's super fun. I love watching him play.
0:08I, and I think he belongs in this range and he deserves to be in this tier.
0:08And he's like, not even that. I didn't, I mean, it wasn't somebody that I thought we'd get into a huge discussion about.
0:08It wasn't like that notable to me. I just like when we start talking about Jacobs, I was curious, but you said
0:08you would definitely take Irving over Jacobs. And so that kind of sparked the conversation.
0:08I guess I would, I would take Irving over Jacobs, but I agree they're in the same tier.
0:08I would definitely have them in the same tier.
0:08Um, and I don't think Eric Jacobs is like, obviously is not more explosive.
0:08The reason I would take Jacobs more is I think he could potentially have all the touchdowns and, and even also potentially
0:08a better receiving profile, though you make a fair point about my Mayfield.
0:08And it's probably more, it's probably closer on the receiving side with those two.
0:08But I think there's a potential for Jacobs to catch a lot of balls if they keep throwing and they throw so
0:08vertically, like he was getting easy volume in the past game there.
0:08And they've been thrown to like Lloyd a lot.
0:08They were thrown to peer strong a little bit.
0:08And like those guys, I couldn't even catch. And like Jacobs is actually skilled in the past game.
0:08He's good at like, he's fluid at catching the ball and getting up field.
0:08He had a really nice play on the TD where he like broke, shook a tackle on the sideline and then got
0:08up the sideline for a walk-in TD. It's like, he's not super athletic.
0:08It's a little, I compared it to Alvin Kamara who I've been, you know, readers of stealing signals.
0:08No, I've been basically being like, this guy can't play anymore, but Alvin Kamara has contact balance and he's been able to
0:08catch balls in space and like make that work a little bit.
0:08But what I said was that like Jacobs still has more in the tank than Kamara, but it's the same thing of
0:08like, these are players that have always had really good contact balance and it works really well at shedding like a slot
0:08DB who's coming down to try to like tackle you in the flat.
0:08Cause that's what the coverage was. Like he'll catch the ball and he'll just shed that guy.
0:08And then he'll get like more yardage, even though he's like going to do it very slowly.
0:08He's not going to do it fast, but anyway, Bucky will probably make that guy miss too.
0:08But I think Jacobs is going to get a lot of receiving is where I was going with that because he doesn't
0:08have, like, it's probably going to get meaningfully more high value touches and nerfing between the combination of the receiving and the goal line work.
0:08Cause their offense is better too. Like, I just think he's going to potentially, I think that's quite fair.
0:08I think that's quite fair. I mean, I think, yeah, I think Jacobs clearly belongs in this group.
0:08I think there's some risk factors to him. Like, I mean, there's definitely potential risk factor of like additional discipline.
0:08There's, there's like, I think that the, I think injury is a big concern for a guy that missed that much time
0:08and like, wasn't even able to practice with the team.
0:08Um, but I, I definitely think Jacobs has, I mean, Jacobs and love are probably the highest Jacobs and love probably have
0:08a higher true ceiling than I think any of the backs after like Gen D tootin.
0:08I don't even know if I've put tootin, but yeah, like, like, yeah, we're looking pure ceiling, probably, probably a higher ceiling
0:09on Jacobs and love than Hubbard Irving Brown Warren, I think.
0:09Yeah. I think that's right. Tootin is, is interesting as well.
0:09Cause I think I, I, I hear what you just did there.
0:09Like, I don't even know if I'd put tootin, like you could make the case toon should be in a tier with
0:09those guys too, that were kind of, that I mean, that's how, that's how he's played so far, right?
0:09Like if we're looking at score, I should say how he scored so far, right?
0:09Like if we're looking at scoring, you know, right now, Swift 17.5, um, Hubbard is all the way up at 18.
0:09So he's probably ran a little hot, but, um, he's at 18.
0:09Warren 17.1, Irving 15.7, Tootin 14.7. Um, so he's like, was certainly like quote unquote overdrafted relative to his scoring output so far.
0:09But like, I think he was a completely justifiable pick.
0:09I agree. There's good reasons to think he will be exceeding his scoring output so far over the second half of the season for sure.
0:09Yeah. Anyway, I think that was, that was a good discussion.
0:09Um, what? So I also wanted to talk a little bit about Concepcion and lemon.
0:09I already kind of gave some of those takes.
0:09I was trying to think of like, well, I wanted to ask you, I mean, I was going to ask if you
0:09wanted to have that conversation or chime in or your thoughts, but then if you had other takes from this draft, I
0:09mean, again, people who want to listen to all the picks should go listen to all the picks.
0:09Uh, but who are some of the guys that you thought were interesting or worth discussion?
0:09Do you have any in mind? Um, that's a good question.
0:09I mean, I definitely want to talk about, um, lemon and Concepcion.
0:09I'd be happy to, I think, well, give your take, give your, give your take on those guys.
0:09I'll try to think of another guy while we talk.
0:09Well, one, one we should talk about is Brees and Braylon who went in the same round.
0:09Brees ended up going 601 and Braylon Allen went 606.
0:09That would be a fun one. Yeah, but I want to hear your take on Concepcion running back range, right?
0:09With Allen and hall, but then also guys like Coleman and Coram, but yeah, we can, we can talk about the rookie receivers if you want.
0:09Let's do that for sure. I want to hear your thoughts on, I kind of gave my thoughts.
0:09I thought lemon looked really good. His a dot was super low, but he made some really physical catches and we got
0:09a little bit of, you got the most yards after the catch that he's had yet.
0:09And that was a big skillset for him coming in.
0:09And so seeing a little bit after the catch, seeing the, uh, toughness and the physicality at the catch point, even on
0:09a low a dot, I thought was really promising, even though it was a good situation.
0:09All the other guys are out. You're playing the Cowboys to actually have a good game in that situation is a really, really promising outcome.
0:09And then you just, you, you hope that there's more role evolution.
0:09And there was some here. He was at least running like, it's weird that his a dot was actually lower than a
0:09season average, but he's gotten some like downfield stuff a little bit.
0:09Um, and he didn't in this game, but there was more like actual routes that were like five yard routes, as opposed
0:09to like just swing passes behind the line of scrimmage, which he's been getting a lot of in the first six weeks.
0:09So I thought his role was interesting. And then concepts young just looked awesome.
0:09He had eight catches for 129 yards in the first half.
0:09His yak was even more dominant than, um, than lemons.
0:09The second half, he dropped the downfield throw. It was a bullet.
0:09That was tough. It could have been a TD.
0:09It was a bullet. It was a tough play, but you'd like to see him make the play.
0:09And there was another deep throw that was a little overthrown.
0:09So both of his downfield plays went incomplete. There's still, I kind of said earlier jury out on the downfield volume, but his eight out was 11.
0:09At least there was the intent to throw downfield.
0:09And that's something we're not seeing with lemon as much.
0:09And so it's good, obviously, but the whole game plan was built around getting concepci on the ball.
0:09He touched the ball on every one of their six first half drives.
0:09And then in the second half, he got a little bit, uh, underused at, uh, at times on the second half, but
0:09he got, uh, uh, and then the round late and he fought through contact.
0:09And had like a 19 yard carry down to the nine, if I'm remembering it right, or 18 yard carry down to
0:09the nine, which set up a really key touchdown for them in the fourth quarter.
0:09So I thought everything that you've talked about with him was, was present the before the catch, after the catch operating at
0:09different depths, all the things that I always talk about, about, you know, wanting the very production so that you have an
0:09insulated profile to how you're used in that stuff.
0:09If you can get numbers in all those ways before and after the catch pointed all different depths in a lot of
0:09different areas of the field from different alignments, whatever you, however you want to think about it, that insulates you.
0:09That's awesome. That's the Zay flowers thing, right? Like he's been doing that ball in hand or vertical or regardless, like he's getting open downfield.
0:09He's taking the ball near the line of scrimmage and he's creating yards like Concepcion, other than not really catching a ton
0:09of balls downfield, he showed that profile and he was efficient in all the other ways, catching some short stuff, catching some outs and some, um, underneath stuff.
0:09So he looked great. I thought lemon looked great.
0:09We didn't get to see the intent to throw out a lemon downfield, but I was, I was really optimistic about both.
0:09I wanted to get your thoughts cause I took Concepcion and I took lemon and, and talked about him a little bit on our show last night.
0:09I didn't get to hear your thoughts on him.
0:09yeah, I, I mean, I'll talk mostly about lemon because I felt like I talked really bullishly about Concepcion last week.
0:09Um, and then, you know, it was a really bullish game and I would agree with all the thoughts that you laid out.
0:09Um, I wouldn't say, I, I hope that it's kind of similar to what you said about Concepcion.
0:09I hope that what I said about lemon last week, is it interpreted as like me burying him or anything?
0:09Cause I don't think that that was my intent, but, um, I talked less enthusiastically about lemon last week and then super enthusiastic game.
0:09I think on Monday. Yeah. I mean, you laid it out.
0:09Like it was obviously like the game was kind of there for him on a red carpet, no Smith, no Wicks Cowboys,
0:09but like it was a game that felt like, I mean, I think I said it on the podcast last week.
0:09I was like, this kind of feels like a now or never spot for him.
0:09And it was now. So that's like way, way, way, way, way better than never.
0:09Um, you know, he had a great opportunity and he made the place.
0:09I think what was most encouraging to me is that I've just felt like for a lot of this season.
0:09And I don't know exactly if it was the offensive coaching staff or lemon himself or Jalen hurts, but I felt like
0:09it's looked like they haven't frequently known like who it was that they drafted.
0:09Um, and they haven't used him in a way that I just envisioned him being used coming out of college.
0:09And then Monday night, he was used kind of exactly like the core of what I felt like he'd be used out
0:09of college, which is like separating versus man in the short and intermediate areas, finding holes in zone, having strong hands at
0:09the catch point where he's able to make those plays in traffic.
0:09I love the touchdown catch. We ran like a, um, it's like not even really a slant.
0:09Cause it's such a, uh, such like a one step slant basically.
0:09But then he gets hit by two guys sandwich.
0:09He's able to hold onto the ball, spin into the end zone, get the, um, not really after the catch, but like
0:09make the strong play through contact, get the touchdown.
0:09Like that's kind of like the core of lemons game to me.
0:09Um, and then the questions on lemon were like, and not really in the stats, the stats profile would suggest that these
0:09aren't questions, but some of the trait based questions, I think coming out for some people was, does he have the NFL
0:09level athleticism, like the juice to be able to add more of the downfield stuff, um, beyond sort of being this reliable
0:09chain mover type, you know, is this a guy who can be like, I don't know.
0:09Is, is he going to be on the Ross St.
0:09Brown or is he gonna be Jacoby Myers? Right.
0:09Um, and I think the jury is still somewhat out on the deep and intermediate stuff, but like at the very least
0:09we got proof of concept on what I feel like is the like core of lemons game.
0:09And then now we can start to think about, okay, how do we build out and see what more you can do.
0:09But at least like, I feel like we can all kind of take a deep breath and be like, okay, we've got something here.
0:09And from the Eagles perspective, I don't know how much Smith's going to play the rest of the year.
0:09I don't know how much Barkley is going to play the rest of the year.
0:09It's a lost season. They have their own pick.
0:09Like they've been a pretty forward thinking organization in the past, but it comes to not optimizing for wins that they don't need.
0:09I guess like whatever you want to set the line at for games played by Devonta Smith and Saquon Barkley this year, guessing I would take the under.
0:09So what do they have to do for the rest of this season without their quarterback, potentially without two of their veteran stars?
0:09One of the best things they can do is evaluate Mikhail Lemon, right?
0:09And so it's super encouraging at this kind of crucial hinge point of the season that he's put a really positive game out in their eyes.
0:09He's come through. And I feel like as you kind of laid out as a big time possibility last week, like if
0:09he could get that positive momentum going, there's no reason for it to stop.
0:09Like they should continue to try to make him a featured piece.
0:09You know, there's a push pull to that. Obviously now there's tape on him.
0:09People might treat him as the number one on defense and how does he respond to that tougher coverage?
0:09We'll find out. But I think he's a really exciting piece.
0:09Like, I mean, he got dropped in a couple of leagues, like high stakes leagues last week.
0:09And like, if you were able to pick him up or if you held him and I held him in a bunch
0:09of leagues, like now I'm really pumped. This might be a guy we get to start for the rest of the year.
0:09So yeah, a ton of optimism. Yeah. I think the, where you like got at the end, there is what I was going to emphasize.
0:09Cause you were saying kind of the proof of concept thing.
0:09And I was going to just, I agree with everything you're saying.
0:09And then I think you want to be aggressive on him right now in home leagues.
0:09If he's still out there or whatever, you want to make sure you're making moves on the Kyle lemon.
0:09There's a, there's a brief lull sometimes when a guy has, I mean, people will be like, well, he only had 67
0:09yards and it was just against the Cowboys and Devonta Smith and Dante Vinwix were out and all of these things.
0:09What we had seen so far, the concern was the Eagles.
0:09You said this, I think last night on our show, didn't know what they had for like what they drafted.
0:09Like they didn't know how to use this player.
0:09We actually got that little bit of proof of concept as you were talking about that proof of concept is enough.
0:09Along with the prospect profile, which was fantastic. Like I said, it was better.
0:09I said at the top of the show is better than concept C owns like meaningfully better in like yards per out
0:09run and yards per target type metrics over multiple years, better in terms of ball in hand.
0:09They were similar, I think in like yak per reception, but like lemons was, I think a little bit better and had
0:09a little bit more, um, a little bit more miss tackles force per reception, which is notable because his eight odd was higher.
0:09And so you get like, he's actually generating similar yak perception at a higher eight odd bite, but making more guys miss
0:09conception is doing more of it with short passes, ball in hand around the line of scrimmage where you're just going to have more space to run.
0:09And the yak tends to be higher. And so there's actually like, I think arguably when you dig into that, you parse
0:09the a dot adjusted yak and, and the miss tackles for stuff and all of that.
0:09Some of the miss tackles for stuff can be misleading.
0:09Cause you could say on lemon, he didn't test particularly well.
0:09Maybe he has to force tackles to get the yak that concepts.
0:09Young could just create through his explosiveness. You could make that case.
0:09I think if you parse it, it's pretty clear that lemons numbers ball in hand stuff was, uh, was better in college.
0:09And then again, the overall efficiency, the yards per target was better as well.
0:09The, the yards per run was better over multiple years.
0:09Then both of lemon basically had two high volume years.
0:09Both of his years were over three yards per run.
0:09I think conception's career high was below three. It was, it was below both of lemons main years.
0:09So I'm not like, I'm not trying to directly compare them.
0:09I'm just trying to defend my stance that like lemons profile, like from a production standpoint was better.
0:09I think it was lemons profile statistically is head and shoulders better than conception.
0:09I think conception's traits are a little bit more intriguing.
0:09And I just think he's a more dynamic player.
0:09And so I felt like the one concern I had about lemon was like, will the, will the statistical profile from college
0:09translate to the NFL based on like what I see as some limitations athletically, but, but my answer to that was not.
0:09No, it's just like that. That would, that would, I would say be like, if conception ends up being a better NFL
0:09player, I could see that as being the reason why, but statistically I don't think it's that close.
0:09Lemon's profile was, was clearly better. And so there was concerns with lemon though, that you just mentioned, if he could translate
0:09and, and these things, what we saw this week was again, as you said, proof of concept, when you get the proof
0:09of concept with a player who has as good of a production profile as he has, I do think you want to
0:09be aggressive on him now in, in different places.
0:09I'm trying to trade for him in some spots.
0:09I'm trying, like I sent out a dynasty offers for him because I think there are people that are like worried that
0:09he's not what they hoped he was. And if you're like able to then buy him for a first or something, like
0:09I think lemon's going to get a lot. I, you said like potentially startable the rest of the way.
0:09It seems like that, right? Like it seems like, I'm not going to say for sure every single week, but I want
0:09to play lemon in my leagues this week. I'm trying to get him into lineups wherever I can.
0:09Like I'm pretty confident that he has six plus targets, four straight games.
0:09The production hasn't been there. Concepcion on an important team where I'm facing by weeks.
0:09I'm playing lemon this week. Most likely you're playing them over Concepcion.
0:09Interesting. I mean, I'll make that final call Sunday morning, but that's where I'm leaning.
0:09Well, cause I only, I, it's probably fair. Cause the Browns have so many more options of like health.
0:09I'm healthy right now, but this is assuming Smith is out.
0:09Obviously I, yeah. Smith comes back plays. Then I would definitely, the only reason I own, but only reason I said that
0:09is I know you're really high on Concepcion and he had even a better week seven, right?
0:09Like he was really quite good in week seven.
0:09And so you could make the case to play Concepcion on the, on the, that ground, but you totally could.
0:09I think they're both good plays. I have a lemon versus Antonio Williams league that I was looking at this morning and
0:09I was like, yeah, I want to get them both in leagues.
0:09How do I get them both in the lineup?
0:09Like who am I benching? Like it's going to be tough.
0:09Yeah. I mean, cause Antonio Williams coming out of the by, like Dan Quinn's talking about using him more and you took him in between Concepcion and lemon.
0:09And we, we were, we were feeling like he's in the, yeah, we, we feel like he's in this range too.
0:09I mean, he's looked really good. The notes on Williams for me, uh, when I was doing some of the signals writing
0:09and digging into him, the numbers aren't perfect. The numbers were way worse when Jane Daniels wasn't in, you go back to
0:09week one, he caught all three of his targets from Daniels.
0:09You go back to the last couple of weeks, he's caught everything from Daniels.
0:09He, I think he's caught like, I had the number in San Sanos.
0:09It's like 11 of 12 targets from Daniels. So target rate hasn't been massive, but I think that's going to correct itself.
0:09He's caught his, and yards per target is like through the roof on, on Jane Daniels targets.
0:09And then with Cal Lake Manus, he had eight targets for like 29 yards in that, in that game.
0:09Um, that was his worst game. A seven yard touchdown call and an 87 yard touchdown, uh, call back by penalty.
0:09But, um, yeah. So there could have been even more production there efficiency there, but that's where, like, if you look at
0:09his like yards per target, you look at his yards per out run.
0:09It's very, um, quarterback. The splits are, are, are profound by quarterback, which should be a reason to be very enthusiastic about Antonio Daniels.
0:09What was my argument there? I agree with the enthusiasm and I would add, um, again, I'm not, I'm not going to,
0:09uh, profess to be some wide receiver film expert at all.
0:09So like, I'm kind of like combining a little bit of my experience, watching the game and then just like other cutups and commentary I've seen.
0:09But my inclination is that this will be, now this is, I think it, is this a Blair Andrews research topic, um,
0:09about the talks about how early season yards per target efficiency can create increased volume in the second half of season for rookies.
0:09Blair Andrews take, right? I, I know that he was the first one I saw to do that in terms of a year over year.
0:09And then I think he's applied to the early season leads to late season, but the efficiency leads to volume.
0:09Take was a really profound piece because for years and years we looked at like expected fantasy points and then efficiency.
0:09And we talked about how efficiency is going to regress.
0:09Right. And he did a, he, he showed this a few years back where it's like when these young players are really
0:09efficient and don't have a ton of volume, it just means the volume comes up to meet the scoring level.
0:09You just, you should just look at the actual fantasy point scoring level and don't parse it by expected points, points over
0:09expected because part of the reason the efficiency is not stable when we just look at the efficiency stat, is these guys do get more volume.
0:10They start getting force fed more targets that are less efficient targets, but it's, it's creating a similar scoring profile that, that
0:10overall point profile that is different in its makeup where it's just more volume and the efficiency maybe comes down, but they do tend to stay.
0:10If I remember Blair's original research on this correctly, the efficiency regresses, but it still tends to stay positive to good players tend to be good.
0:10Right. But this goes back to, I remember, man, when you say that, I remember this was, I think before Blair's work,
0:10but after AJ Brown's rookie year, he's a great example of it.
0:10They were such a low volume pass offense and they were not going to throw enough.
0:10And in year two, he was so efficient and the efficiency was going to have to regress and they weren't going to throw enough.
0:10And it's going to be a problem. I was at CBS at the time.
0:10I remember talking to my good buddy, Heath Cummings about a lot of that, a lot about it that year.
0:10And just this concept of efficiency in young players, meaning the player's good.
0:10Like, don't, don't just regress out the signal that the player's good.
0:10And Blair, it was around that time or right after that time showed that the data actually like shows that if you
0:10look at like the fantasy points over expected and Rotovis has the EP and FPOE stat, he used FPOE to show that
0:10EP rises when FPOE is particularly high. And anyway, that's what you were like.
0:10Williams has been efficient, right? He's been super efficient.
0:10And yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's something that might've happened anyways, but like this to me is like the
0:10most potentially is classic of an example of this phenomenon as possible where you get not just a rookie, but around three
0:10rookie who, when he was drafted, they were probably not looking at Antonio Williams being like, our plan is for you to
0:10be our number one receiver for most of this season.
0:10Like it was probably, yeah, like maybe you'll start and like, hopefully we'll get you some, some touches, but like it's, it's
0:10not, you're not going to be like a massive part of what we're doing.
0:10And he actually had like a really quiet camp in terms of what was reported.
0:10It was obviously more impressive than what was reported on because he was already playing as the wide receiver for and getting
0:10in routes in week one, but he pops a ton from an efficiency basis.
0:10Those first couple of weeks, and there were, you know, probably was like to some degree a surprise to the team of
0:10like, Oh, like we got this young player. He's performing above expectations.
0:10We're going to find a way to get them on the field more.
0:10And you still have these veterans in the corn and in digs.
0:10And then, you know, now McClorn's out for the season.
0:10They go on a bi-week. They've been shuffling between three different quarterbacks and it's been receivers in receivers out.
0:10And now you're in a spot where like, they finally have a bi-week.
0:10They understand what their offense is going to be for the foreseeable future, which is they don't have a run game really at all.
0:10They like JCM was not good and now he's hurt.
0:10So there are B one is for shot white.
0:10Have fun. Um, and they're all at stakes. So like really all they, all they have going for them is like, we
0:10got to play Jaden Daniels, spread it out, throw the ball to our backs for the ball to our receivers.
0:10Terry McClorn's hurt. Stefan digs has been pretty effective in the slot role.
0:10I think that's his role. Dan Quinn said that's his role.
0:10It's not going to grow much. So what are we going to find as our point of emphasis on the bi?
0:10I mean, Dan Quinn literally came out and said it's Antonio Williams.
0:10And of course it's got to be Antonio Williams because they're kind of out of other options.
0:10They have this opportunity to figure out, okay, where are we going to find production?
0:10And luckily they have this rookie who's been really efficient and really effective.
0:10You also look at, you know, a lot of the people that are diving more into the film and they've pointed out,
0:10Hey, Antonio Williams is running open a lot and not getting thrown to, you know, a lot of the times that he's open.
0:10And, you know, that probably speaks to maybe some mistakes from, from quarterback play, but also probably that he just was not
0:10the number one or the number two in the progression all that often earlier in the season.
0:10But if he's winning his routes, anyways, coaches are going to have that tape.
0:10They're going to be spending over the bi-week and going, Hey, like this guy's getting open a lot.
0:10Like we're going to make him the first read a lot more often than he was early in the season when we're
0:10trying to funnel our offense more towards the veterans.
0:10So I think there's a ton of potential for him.
0:10I took him ahead of lemon in this draft.
0:10I don't know if that was the right decision.
0:10Maybe, maybe not. I guess I did that mostly because I'm just probably more optimistic about the Washington passing offense.
0:10Uh, then I am about the Eagles passing off heads.
0:10I think it's justifiable. Totally argue that the other way.
0:10Um, like it's, I've, I think I've been more impressed with Williams overall this year and I've feel better about betting on
0:10Jaden Daniels than like Tanner McKee slash maybe Joe Milton or something, but then lemon has a far better prospect profile.
0:10So I think you could argue that either way, but I, I, I definitely feel good about where I got Williams overall.
0:10It was a fascinating run here because you took Concepcion and then Diggs went Williams teammate.
0:10And then I took Williams and then you took lemon and then Ryan, he took Jeremy Bernard.
0:10And then you took Denzel Boston. So we had five rookie wide receivers out of six receivers.
0:10There was a bunch of tight ends and running backs and quarterbacks in between them, but, um, five rookie receivers almost in a row.
0:10Oh, and before it could step steel and went Omar Cooper.
0:10So it was really six out of seven rookie receivers with Diggs.
0:10Diggs being the lone exception, kind of a fascinating way that this all worked out where everybody, everybody was grabbing the rookie receivers.
0:10We were kind of all waiting for someone to break the ice on rookies.
0:10You broke the ice with Jordan Tyson really aggressively at five, 10, which was pretty funny.
0:10That's like, I didn't really mean it. That was like more of like doing a, like a bit, do it a bit.
0:10Yeah, it was, I mean, what I mean is that I think Jordan Tyson is going to have a great second half.
0:10Um, I don't recommend valuing up that highly in your leagues, but the, the next make a point, but no, it was fair.
0:10Cause we were getting really thin at receiver. The next round we started going really, I mean, I, I, it wasn't fully fair and you are acknowledging it.
0:10It was a little, it was a little enthusiastic, but all the rookies started coming because we were kind of in that
0:10range where, um, they needed to, they needed to start getting picked Williams.
0:10Williams. Um, I wanted to know what I pull up the stats from, uh, my field tippers in season check-in last week.
0:10I pulled up the Jane Daniels stat. Williams has caught 10 of 11 balls.
0:10Daniels has thrown his way this year for 145 yards.
0:10That's a 13.2 yards per target. It's only 11 balls, but like he's been insanely efficient with, with, um, Jane Daniels.
0:10Oh, uh, overall, uh, PFF has them at an 8.5 yards per target, which takes out the, uncatchable passes.
0:10I think, uh, pro football reference has him at like 7.8 or something, which whatever, uh, his catch rate is 69% though.
0:10Like it's very high. It's 7.9 yards per target, which is like good.
0:10And the point about 7.9 yards per target that I was going to say is even if you want to look at
0:10the downside, then you wait it to the fact that he lost an 87 yard explosive play.
0:10And all, all that efficiency has mostly come with Jane Daniels and all the inefficiency has come with Calic Manus where he
0:10had, uh, uh, whatever it was, 29 yards on, on eight targets, 21 yards on eight targets, which like, that's an insanely
0:10low yards per target working with a different quarterback.
0:10That's a UDFA or whatever round seven pick or whatever he was.
0:10They got jammed into a game where Marcus Mariota got hurt.
0:10Anyway, you could split up. It's all small samples.
0:10That's why I'm saying it fast and like low.
0:10It's like, this is, I'm not like a really, really hard take, but you can split up the Williams stuff to be
0:10like, there's really a lot more optimism here than people are talking about.
0:10And he's the bet even more than not just, but Concepcion and Cooper, like he could be the number one for Jane Daniels.
0:10And he's looked really good. And he is around three pick.
0:10He is a little bit lower draft capital and profile wise, but there's no reason.
0:10Like Terry McLaurin was one, you know, once upon a time, not the greatest, you know, overall prospect profile, there's no reason
0:10he couldn't be the top scoring rookie wide receiver going forward.
0:10If Daniels continues to play really well, because Stefan Diggs looks limited at this point.
0:10And there's, I mean, chicken conk, what we talked about could be an interesting tight end, but there's not a ton else in this passing game.
0:10They need Williams to step up. He can handle it.
0:10The question is, can he earn enough targets and will the targets brought run just rise because of like first read targets, which would be awesome.
0:10Cause he's only been targeted on 17.6% around so far.
0:10That's gotta be like 24% to do anything. Like what I'm talking about, it's gotta jump a bunch, but if it does,
0:10he's, you know, it doesn't have to be 24%, but it does to, to hit the ceiling of what I'm talking about.
0:10But then at that point, he's going to have enough efficiency that he's going to be a, a top, whatever 20 receiver.
0:10Like he's going to be a legit, like stud, like really good wide receiver at that point.
0:10That's the best rookie of all of them. And I think it's very plausible.
0:10I think your, your selection was very justifiable to me, Williams and lemon.
0:10Then, then you said Ryan took Bernard and I took Boston right after that Bernard and Boston, a little bit less interesting to me.
0:10I think there's a little bit of a tear break where I get, I do get really excited about Cooper, who I think Ryan took as well.
0:10Concepcion, Williams and lemon and Tyson, you, you know, you took higher when he comes back.
0:10Those are the rookies that are the really enthusiastic ones for me, but yeah, in some ways I, at this moment, if
0:10you made me pick one in some ways, it is actually Williams.
0:10That's like the biggest swing that, that seems really, really fun.
0:10I agree. He's the biggest swing. Like, because he doesn't have what he doesn't have that Concepcion and lemon do.
0:10It's like a, a very, very strong analytical prospect profile that I can lean on and have like a high degree of confidence in the talent, right?
0:10Like Williams. Williams. I liked Williams, the prospect. I thought he was an underrated prospect, but there's no comparison between Williams and Concepcion and lemon.
0:10Those guys were first round picks. They had far better production profiles, you know, early to clear players versus Williams, but I've liked what I've seen.
0:10I've seen even in limited samples and yeah, the opportunity to be Jaden Daniels, number one receiver, I think is like really, really exciting.
0:10So, you know, we've been like the dynasty ranks update this week.
0:10He's not in the same tier as lemon and Concepcion, but rest of season.
0:10He's right with those guys for me. Yeah. The, the, um, the Jaden Daniels thing, we've been waiting for Daniels to have like a legit, exciting, explosive player.
0:10Like Terry McLaurin is a fantastic player. And I'm not going to say he's like limited or something.
0:10And, but like when he was the healthiest, he was two years ago, Daniels was playing at another level.
0:10Cause he had a really good wide receiver. And then at other times, McLaurin hasn't been healthy or Daniels hasn't been healthy.
0:10The, what if of like, what if, Antonio Williams is not just like, it's, it's, it, it isn't a superstar.
0:10What I guess the point I'm making is like, it's not what if Antonio Williams is a superstar.
0:10It's what if Antonio Williams is meaningfully better than anyone else other than Terry McLaurin in 2024, the Jaden Daniels has gotten
0:10to throw to, which is not a hard. What if like, it's not, it's not really a high bar.
0:10It's like, yeah, it's like late career. Terry McLaurin, completely cooked Debo Samuel, borderline cook, Stefan Diggs, Zach Ertz, Zach Ertz, Jake
0:10a cock while like, yeah, it's tough. It's been rough.
0:10Jaden, good luck out there, champ. Go get him tiger.
0:10We're never going to give you a running back.
0:10Your receivers are like a mix of mid round rookies and dusty vets.
0:10Like go make it happen though. And also make sure you never checked out.
0:10Make sure you're, you're make sure you're right in the progression with your dog crap off.
0:10Yeah. Yeah. Trust, trust Traylon Burks to hit his marks on his 10 yard.
0:10We don't know what down it is on the field.
0:10You know, it might be third down, it might be fourth down.
0:10Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, God, there's one other thing I wanted to get your take on.
0:10I don't know if you have any other top things to list before we get out of here.
0:10We were going to do hall Allen. We should do, but go, Good one.
0:10Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Mine is of a similar vein because it's, it's also two running backs on the same team.
0:10Um, I took Coleman in round seven and then you took Harvey around later in round eight.
0:10Um, and I wanted to get your take on what you see from this backfield rest of the season.
0:10First of all, I'm curious if you, cause you obviously took Harvey after I took Coleman, would you have taken Harvey ahead
0:10of Coleman or were, do you just like Harvey independently after?
0:10Uh, it's maybe my first question. And then second would just be like, what do you, what do you view that backfield
0:10looking like after a pretty encouraging re debut for her, for Coleman off the IR.
0:10It's interesting. When I took Daniels, I said, I didn't want to make a decision on the running backs.
0:10And I later said on that show that it was, you know, included the Broncos backs.
0:10But I think that was just sort of the gut feel where I've been higher on Harvey than probably I should be.
0:10After you took Coleman, I mean, I didn't rush to the podium to take Harvey with any, either of my next couple of picks.
0:10I felt like Coleman was right. And I, and I feel like at this moment talking to you, that Coleman was right.
0:10Um, and I think it was a good pick by you.
0:10Cause I think he, we, we've talked about it.
0:10Like the, the concern is that the Broncos offense continues to like be gross and they win, keep winning ugly, which they've been able to do.
0:10They're five and two, even though their offenses looked really bad.
0:10I know. And if she said the Broncos play each other this week, I'm like, this could be the AFC championship game.
0:10And I'm definitely going to be less entertaining than the Titans Browns game last week.
0:10Um, and if they continue to be kind of gross and they're, you know, the rushing usage is, is still including JK Dobbins in the mix.
0:10I mean, Jonah Coleman could just be like, not that interesting at that point.
0:10Right. The Harvey thing is like, it's just such a different conversation.
0:10So he's playing a different role. He had 25% routes this week.
0:10It was his first game under 40%. My argument would be, and has been, and was on stealing bananas and was on our podcast last night.
0:10And I'm not going to like go all the way into it.
0:10Cause I've made the case multiple podcasts this week.
0:10You can listen to it elsewhere, but it would be that.
0:10I think that that was the nadir of his season.
0:10He had the explosive play for the TD at another explosive called back or near explosive.
0:10It was a 19 yard gain. Um, and I think Sean Payton, like, I think there's a real, and we've actually talked
0:10about it on this podcast as well. There's a real value in the offense to the short passing game and the way
0:10that it brings players down towards the line of scrimmage and creates the downfield passing lanes.
0:10The same way the running game does. It's why people call it a run game extension.
0:10These short passes, not just on running backs, but I compared it on stealing bananas to that Jane Daniels offense in 2024,
0:10where they were doing a lot of wide receiver screens, throwing the ball to the perimeter quickly to your wide receivers accomplishes the same thing.
0:10It stretches the defense near the line of scrimmage.
0:10It forces them to bring more players down. Cause they got a guard sideline to sideline near the line of scrimmage.
0:10You can run up the middle. You can run to the edge with the outside zone stuff, but you can also throw
0:10to the edge near the line of scrimmage. To me, all of that accomplishes the same thing in the modern scheme, which
0:10is less about run versus pass and more about, can you be efficient on those success rate plays that occur near the
0:10line of scrimmage enough to bring players down into the box to then throw vertically?
0:10Cause if you can't do that, if all you're doing is running up the middle to Kareem hunt and throwing wide receiver
0:10screens to Xavier worthy, he goes down. As soon as the cornerback blows too heavily on him, like the, uh, you know,
0:10the three little pigs and he's blowing his house down.
0:10Then, you know, you have cream honey, Isaiah Pacheco running for three yards in a cloud dust up the middle.
0:10Then the defense can just guard all the vertical routes downfield.
0:10And you have a problem with the way that your offense can functionally work.
0:10You have to then take the check downs every time you drop back.
0:10And that's why Patrick Mahomes, eight was like so low.
0:10And it's, it's all about this thing of how do you space the defense?
0:10How do you create opportunities for other things to work in, you know, in a scheme?
0:10Part of the reason JJ McCarthy was so good.
0:10I'm looking at my stealing signals page. Cause I was pulling something up to look at some of those stats.
0:10And I have JJ McCarthy as the cover boy for part one of stealing signals.
0:10Part of the reason he was so good is they went very run heavy and they ran the ball so effectively.
0:10And then you're thrown to the perimeter. You're like in his arm strength.
0:10One of the things that I gave him a lot of credit for was being able to throw to the boundaries and, you know, outs really well.
0:10And he threw that, that flag route to my neighbors very well.
0:10We still have issues with him throwing over the middle, which is somewhat of a problem.
0:10But if you can throw to both sidelines, they have to defend a lot of grass.
0:10And they also have to defend in the box.
0:10If you know, if you're running well at the same time, all of this is just like basic football, can you do these different things?
0:10The issue with the Broncos right now, and what John Payton tried to do as soon as he took over was run
0:10the ball more with Dobbins to open up the downfield passing.
0:10He was talking about that. And it's not opening it up because Dobbins is, is basically Kareem hunt at this point.
0:10And what you were doing, what I argued to you on the long view recently was you were actually doing effective things
0:10with RJ Harvey in the past game. They want to go away from that for some reason.
0:11I think Sean Payton is like forgetting these principles of football because he's so fixated on the individual players.
0:11They're not forgetting them, but he's like, he's so fixated on something about Harvey right now and about Dobbins and about usage
0:11and who he wants to emphasize that he's not recognizing that Harvey was actually creating positive stuff for his scheme because they
0:11were bringing guys down in the box to try to stop these Harvey plays because he was creating plays after the catch and he was doing stuff.
0:11And then last week they, they cut the routes for him.
0:11They barely give him the ball at all. And that's the week where he breaks off a 50 yard touchdown.
0:11And it's like, I mean, case in point right here, but regardless my argument.
0:11So like you could argue that Harvey is being phased out and these issues are very valid.
0:11And, and Jonah Coleman's going to be the running back because he's going to be able to do the things that Sean
0:11Payton wants the, the one of JK Dobbins to do in the run game to open up the past game.
0:11And Coleman's then a more effective version of that player.
0:11And so I think, and that's what it looked like this week.
0:11He had 50% snaps. Like he played a ton.
0:11I kind of think, so he played a lot late and kind of salting the game out and it was his first game back.
0:11I kind of think you're going to see like a little bit of a veteran bounce for Dobbins this week.
0:11I think his snapshot probably comes back up, which is going to be gross.
0:11I'm shaking my head, but not because I disagree just because I'm exasperated.
0:11Yeah. It's exhausting, but also like Harvey's got to like come back.
0:11Like, I kind of feel like Coleman's going to go from 50% this week down to like 30%.
0:11And it's going to be annoying, but maybe I'm going to be wrong on that.
0:11I hope I'm wrong on that. Cause it'd be better for the offense and be better for Coleman.
0:11Who's like, I think Coleman looks awesome. Like he, and he, he like, he's like, like some of the, some of the
0:11rush, like he looks awesome relative to JK Dobbins.
0:11Some of the rushing, I don't think looks like amazing.
0:11I think Harvey looks like clearly the best ball in hand player.
0:11Not, not, not. Yeah. You're going to say not clearly.
0:11I was, I was, no, I was gearing up to get angry because I thought you were going to say he looks
0:11clearly like the best back, but then when you changed it to ball in hand player, then I, I immediately retreated.
0:11Okay. Okay. That's what I wanted to know what you were retreating on.
0:11That's fair. He is clearly the best ball in hand player.
0:11I agree. I think he's been looking good in space.
0:11I think what Coleman gives you honestly, well, he gives you what Dobbins gave them last year.
0:11Plus I think, because he like, cool. I was really impressed with Coleman's vision.
0:11I shared a couple of runs on social, um, just of him, like kind of breaking tackles and doing like what I
0:11feel like he did really well at Washington at times where it's like, he gets into space and you're never really that
0:11impressed with the athleticism, but he's kind of shrugging guys off and he's staying alive.
0:11And all of a sudden, I compare him to Josh Jacobs.
0:11I compare him to Josh Jacobs early on when people were asking me like, who's this guy from Washington?
0:11Cause I obviously watch all the Washington games. I was like, he's very like Josh Jacobs.
0:11It didn't surprise me that he didn't want to test at the combine.
0:11I didn't think he would have tested very, very well.
0:11Similar to Josh Jacobs. He doesn't have a super high play speed at the same time.
0:11Similar to Josh Jacobs. The yardage efficiency is actually strong and he actually had a decent breakaway run rate and stuff because
0:11he does just like get downhill and get yards and shrug off tackles.
0:11Like you said, he goes in finds green grass and gets to it.
0:11And it's like, and he can, he can catch, he can pass block to your point.
0:11He's well-rounded. He's a better back. I would agree.
0:11He's a better back. The guy I've comped him to is Ramondre Stevenson.
0:11But with the notable exception that because Coleman's so much shorter, he's actually way better in short yardage than Stevenson.
0:11Cause you can't get underneath him the same way that you can, where Stevenson's so upright.
0:11But I think that they have like a similar style where they're kind of like shaken and bacon and they can get into space.
0:11I think Coleman's got a little bit more early burst, but there was another run that I didn't even share.
0:11It wasn't that big of a game. It was like six yards, but it was the one that impressed me the most
0:11where he didn't have a ton of room. It was like a, like in between the tackle and the guard was kind of the aiming point.
0:11And he like made a pretty like proactive problem solving, or maybe just got lucky, but I think he did where he
0:11like saw that a gap was going to open up inside, but it hadn't opened up yet.
0:11And he kind of came to like almost a stop, waited for the gap to open up and then snuck in between
0:11the guard and the center, got up in there and he got like seven yards out of it.
0:11And it was like a run that I think most backs would get like two.
0:11And for a rookie to like see where the play is developing, not even like just, Oh, there's a cutback lane.
0:11I'm going to go to it, but I can read the flow.
0:11I can see that a cutback lane is going to develop.
0:11I'm going to slow myself up so that I'm in position to cut back up and through maximize this run.
0:11I'm like, man, this is just like a professional running back kind of coming into the league.
0:11And that's the kind of play that like Dobbins absolutely has the vision to make.
0:11He doesn't have the athleticism to do much of anything anymore, but it's a play that like Harvey, I don't think makes very often.
0:11And that's where, that's where Coleman, I think is going to give Peyton a lot of what he valued out of Dobbins
0:11last year, what he values out of Dobbins theoretically, but he also brings you the Dobbins never does is Coleman is adept
0:11in the passing game and he's a strong and past protection.
0:11And that's never been strengths of Dobbins. So like, he's not, he's by no means like the dynamic receiving weapon that Harvey
0:11is, but he gives you a guy who can like contribute in all phases.
0:11He doesn't limit your offense, like similar to a Josh Jacobs, you had mentioned, um, or Ramond Ray Stevenson, who I brought
0:11up, like he's, he's a bigger back who is completely acceptable in like passing situations.
0:11I mean, it's, it's almost obvious where this team should go, right?
0:11It's like, they should be using Coleman a lot between the tackles that on third and longs, and then they should be
0:11using Harvey in like a bunch, um, in their spread formation game as a specific weapon, um, mixing in on series on
0:11early downs, obviously getting the two minute drill. Like to me, it should be like a split between these two guys.
0:11And I don't think that Dobbins brings anything that the other guys don't like.
0:11What's, what's his voice in this? It's just the frustrating thing is, I don't know that they will have the courage to phase him out.
0:11Like it's like, we all know what their 2077 backfield is going to be.
0:11We all know what it should be, but will they, will they confront reality in the face or will they give Dobbins enough carries to be annoying?
0:11Because I, I a hundred percent agree with you that Harvey's not getting phased out.
0:11Harvey brings you an element that no one else in this backfield does.
0:11You don't phase that out. So he, he's got, they're limiting it.
0:11They're limiting it enough that it's concerning. So I was, so I took him in round eight.
0:11I was going to ask you how, how you, where, where you would have taken Harvey essentially if that I take him
0:11to, I, I wondered if I took him too high as we kind of thought through some of the other backs, like
0:11a little later, Rashad white ends up going. I took him over Pollard.
0:11I took Omar and Hampton after him in, at the very end of this draft, which I mean, I don't know where
0:11Omar and Hampton should go, but I think there's at least an argument that, that there's a change to change the offense over the pie.
0:11I mean, what I, what did I call them?
0:11And I said, it was now and never week last week.
0:11This is like a now or now. I mean, maybe it is scoring wise, because if they're going against the Rams, they're
0:11probably gonna get their doors blown off, but like, at least from a role perspective, it's kind of a now or never
0:11week where like, is the plan this week? We're going to run Omar and Hampton a lot or not?
0:11Because if it is, then we got something. And if it's not, then see you in 2027.
0:11And that's why I took him at eight, 10.
0:11It's like, if they come out with a, like a slightly different run scheme and they're using a lot of Hampton, he's in 60% plus.
0:11We're like, man, he should be going in like round five.
0:11If they do anything like what they've been doing, it's like, nah, I overdrafted him.
0:11But like, you know, that's, that's what an eighth round pick is in fantasy.
0:11You're like, yeah, it's high upside swing. But so I took Harvey.
0:11We could definitely view him the same way. We view like Judkins and Scadaboo after this week.
0:11You could very well. Could the Harvey, uh, pick for me was if it does continue to be a boring offense where
0:11they rotate too much, they include Dobbins too much.
0:11Harvey's the one that probably scores the most points.
0:11The rest of the way, he doesn't probably lead the team in touchdowns, but especially in PPR, I think he catches the most passes.
0:11And then he has like more yards per touch.
0:11Cause he's getting into space with his touches. Coleman probably gets some yardage and has a good, like a good little season.
0:11But Dobbins is like stealing enough from him on the rushing side that like, it's not great.
0:11So it was like Harvey, a little bit more high floor scoring profile.
0:11I think Coleman should go ahead because it's a little bit more of like a swing.
0:11This was a team where I had just taken Braylon Allen a couple rounds earlier.
0:11And we're going to talk about those guys, but I think Allen is a swing kind of like Coleman where it's like, how big does the role stay?
0:11Maybe Brees all gets traded. You did the whole fanfic thing or whatever happens, you know, maybe a hall doesn't get healthy.
0:11And then like Braylon Allen is then like a smash or maybe Brees all returns to a 65% snap share this week, which is potentially possible.
0:11In which case maybe on this particular team that I just had a mid season draft on that we're not playing out,
0:11but maybe I'm starting Harvey at some point because he's a higher floor PPR play.
0:11and Allen's like value isn't going to zero, but it's a little bit too like trap profile or whatever.
0:11He's got TD equity, but it's like too much, just pure rushing or something on a bad offense.
0:11Um, anyway, I think Harvey's an inch. So I think they give you different things for builds was my point.
0:11Coleman and Harvey, but I think Harvey's interesting. Where would you take him?
0:11Is this like a reasonable spot? It's the right range.
0:11It's the right range. I don't think I would have taken him over any of the backs that went before him.
0:11And trying to think like, no, I think, I think it's the exact right pick probably.
0:11Like, I think I'd rather bet on him than Hampton.
0:11I, I mean, it's like, what do you need?
0:11Right? Like if you, if you really need to put a running back in your lineup this week, I'd rather have Rashad
0:11White or Tony Pollard, you know, um, like I would rather play them this week in RB two, but like if we're,
0:11if as an RB three or like someone who's the first or second guy off your bench, probably rather bet on Harvey.
0:11Another backfield that was split was the Seahawks price.
0:11So the back before Harvey was Charbonnet, uh, Ryan took him 801.
0:11He also took price. I think at six Oh nine, and I liked that price.
0:11You took price. I liked that price pick. Like I felt like that was good value at that point.
0:11Six Oh nine. He went right after Stevenson, Braylon Allen, Corum, Brees hall.
0:11I had kind of forgotten about him. I think I would take him ahead of some of those backs.
0:11I took Braylon Allen ahead of him. For example, I think I would take price over Braylon Allen, even though Braylon has been scoring a ton.
0:11And you're like, you're in the role and you're scoring a ton.
0:11But I, I was pretty optimistic about what we saw about price early on.
0:11A lot of people seem more pessimistic. Everyone shared on the show.
0:11What's that? I'm on a, everyone's pessimistic. We're on price Island over here.
0:11You're with me. Nice. Yeah. Jacob shared that he's pretty concerned about the like green zone work and interior work, which I,
0:11I mean, I think is a fair concern because most of what he looked good at was like towards the perimeter.
0:11I guess I don't think that's like a set in stone thing.
0:11It's obviously something Charlotte does very well when you think about how these guys are going to coexist.
0:11But one of the things that I think is low key good for price is that Emmanuel Wilson was not good.
0:11He ends up hitting on a, like a 21 yard touchdown run.
0:11I think it was in the Sunday nighter to, in the game, but it was like a pretty well blocked play.
0:11And, um, otherwise I thought he didn't have that great of a game, even though he found, he wound up with a
0:11hundred yards rushing on his 24 carries, but like a 21 yard run late is going to help you.
0:11It's a Bucky, it's a Bucky Irving ask line.
0:11He stinks. Bucky Irving looked a lot more impressive than Emmanuel Wilson.
0:11I'll give it, I'll give you that. I saw it right there.
0:11I saw this like low hanging fruit on the branch.
0:11I just wanted to have a bite. Yeah. But my argument was that Wilson has mostly looked pretty bad.
0:11He's been very, very low in rush yards. Over expected, very negative.
0:11Um, George, Alani has struggled as the guy working off of him.
0:11It's had some fumbles issues. They've played some V-less Jones.
0:11Uh, I think V-less Jones, that says enough about how you feel about your running back room.
0:11And he's looked half decent, but you're not going to play a lot of a converted wide receiver ultimately.
0:11And the fact that they didn't play a lot of him when those guys were the backs tells you that they're not
0:11going to play a lot of them. If they can get healthy price and sharps, where I'm going with this is, and
0:11I don't think anyone really is debating this, but once sharps and price are able to, they're going to be the one to punch.
0:11Everyone seems to think it's going to be. So I, I think that part of it is clear because the other backs have not been good.
0:11And then as long as price and sharps can be healthy, that they'll be the guys.
0:11And then it's like a question about the split.
0:11And then people are very confident that sharps going to get all the high value touch stuff.
0:11He's going to be the one on pass downs and he's going to be the one at the goal line.
0:11And I think that's likely, but I think it's less likely than the market seems to believe.
0:11They seem to believe that price has like no shot at high value touches.
0:11I think he's going to catch them early down passes.
0:11They were thrown to him a decent amount. They're thrown to him with air yards in some situations.
0:11I think he's going to catch a decent amount of passes.
0:11And I also think he has a shot at some goal line work as well, especially if sharp.
0:11We don't know how sharp is going to look if he doesn't look like he has some great burst.
0:11But the biggest thing on Charbonnet for me is the fact that he didn't play last week.
0:11I said this on the show last night and I said it in signals is a real signal that the Seahawks are
0:11probably not going to push him early because they could have pushed him out there and they maybe needed to, to go
0:11beat an undefeated team in the chiefs. They ended up winning anyway, but he practiced in limited three times and they said,
0:11we're not going to make you active because we don't think you're ready.
0:11That says that like this, all this optimism that we've been hearing since August, that like Charbonnet might not even go on PUP might play in week two.
0:11Well, now we're going into week eight. He has not played yet, but even after week six, when he was practicing and
0:11they had opened up his window and everything, they did not activate him.
0:11That tells you something. There was some real signal in that.
0:11I don't think Sharps is going to be like a workhorse when he comes back.
0:11And I don't think he's going to get a lot of, well, anyway, I, I don't want to surmise too much about
0:11what he's actually going to look like or anything like that.
0:11But I, I mean, there's a potential for him to be kind of just an ancillary back to price is, is sort
0:11of what I'm thinking, but I don't know if that's accurate.
0:11Yeah. I think that, I think that's like the modal outcome, which could be completely wrong, but I mean, you listen to,
0:11they put a lot of primetime games lately. And, you know, I think the, what the announcers say is often very influenced
0:11by like some of the production meeting stuff. And without saying it, like the sense that you get from listening to.
0:11Collinsworth, who was doing the game, especially on Sunday night, is that the Seahawks are kind of acknowledging that they, that one
0:11of the reasons that their offense is not working as well as it did last year is that they're missing the explosiveness on the outside zone scheme.
0:11And that that's not setting up their play action the way that they want it to.
0:11And that they can't really generate that with Emmanuel Wilson and George Lonnie.
0:11And I don't think they're going to be able to generate that with Zach Charbonnet.
0:11He was not that explosive previously. He's going to be less explosive, probably off of the ACL.
0:11They drafted price and the first round with the obvious intention of him being the key point in their offense of generating
0:11that explosive rushing opportunity that opens everything else up for them.
0:11They then go invest in a hall of fame generational interior offensive lineman who is going to make a massive impact in
0:11terms of opening up holes for generic price and for explosive runs.
0:11He's been the key impact blocker for so many of Jonathan Taylor's home runs over the years.
0:11Like that is all about sort of opening up that potential for price.
0:11Yeah. I think that there's going to be concerns about high value touches, you know, past game stuff for sure.
0:11Um, goal line stuff. I think there's, it's fair to have concerns about, but I'm glad that we took price ahead of Charbonnet in this draft.
0:11I don't know if that's the popular sentiment that like, that's the back you'd rather have.
0:11Um, I think Charbonnet was a totally reasonable pick by the way where he went.
0:11Like it's an ambiguous spot, obviously. And, and maybe Charbonnet is just the guy, but I would bet on price.
0:11And I think that, I think what people are though, like maybe I'm just like totally straw manning, but what I sense
0:12the prevailing view is, is that Charbonnet is locked into all the high value touches.
0:12And the only question is how many of the low value touches price takes away.
0:12I view it like as nobody's locked into anything, but to the extent anyone's locked into anything, I feel more confident about
0:12price getting the bulk of the, between the twenties carries.
0:12And then the question is how much of the high value touches does Charbonnet cap?
0:12That's like how I'm viewing it. Um, so I think you said that perfectly optimistic with price.
0:12I think you said both my perception of the way that a lot of people are viewing it and the way that
0:12I would view it, the way that, the way that you view it is the way that I correct way to view it.
0:12Um, I think he said that perfectly. That's what I was kind of trying to say, but not saying it as eloquently.
0:12I think he said that really, really well. Uh, the, the hall Allen one, like what are your thoughts there?
0:12I think, I mean, the, the big thing for me with this one is just that I think on this one, I
0:12think hall's going to play more in the past game.
0:12He, his yards per hour run is legitimately really, really good this year.
0:12And he's made some really nice plays. And then, um, Allen has, has a low yards per hour run and has been
0:12like, he's been able to catch the ball out of the backfield, but he's not like an efficient receiving back.
0:12Really? He's kind of like a big back space that just catches the ball.
0:12Brees halls made some really nice plays in the passing game this year.
0:12There's, there's one like third long where he, did I already talk about that on this show?
0:12God, we're three hours in, but he cut back on like three receivers in space.
0:12It looked awesome. Three defenders in space. He made like three guys.
0:12I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point because when they were both healthy this season, um, Allen was randomly playing
0:12all the long down and distance stuff. Like hall was still getting more past work.
0:12Cause you know, it's actually the more valuable passing work is usually on early downs for running backs, not on third and 10.
0:12But interestingly, Allen was playing the bulk of the passing situations.
0:12And then he's played in all situations. Obviously while hall's been out, I'm curious to see how they arrange things.
0:12If I had to guess, I think they're just going to like go drive by drive the first game and see how
0:12it goes and then kind of play the hot hand, but we'll see.
0:12So, and I think Allen's going to maybe look better as a runner.
0:12Cause hall has looked a little bit slow at times in the backfield, but like once you get him in space, he's actually good in space.
0:12We did talk, we talked about this. I think, I think what you described is the most efficient use of them, which
0:12would be like Allen getting like maybe, maybe even a slight majority of the carries, but then utilizing hall on some tosses,
0:12some outside stuff and more in the passing. I mean, almost like kind of the split that I was talking about for
0:12Coleman and Harvey would maybe make sense. But when I, when I did my in-season field tipper check in last week, so
0:12this doesn't include whatever Allen did receiving wise in week seven.
0:12I talk about the targets per outrun stuff with running backs to talk about intent because like they're playing in the same
0:12offense, but like some running backs just end up with a lot more targets per out.
0:12Now, some of this is the role base with the long down and distance, but hall had a 23.3% targets per route on his 43 routes.
0:12It's not a lot. Allen had a 12.9% on his 93 routes up to this point.
0:12So like hall's basically doubling him, but then also the yards per target side of it.
0:12Like, what are you doing with your targets? Hall was over 10 and 10.2 because he's been generating a ton of yak perception.
0:12He's made a bunch of big plays. Braylon Allen was at 3.8, which is extremely low, but even just like look at
0:12last year, Allen was at 5.7 as a rookie.
0:12He was at 5.7 yards per target, which is slightly below the average for running backs, which is typically about 6.0 hall.
0:12Every year of his career has been 6.4 higher has been above that average last year.
0:12He was at 8.8 back as a rookie. He was at 7.3 as multiple really strong seasons in terms of yards per target.
0:12And then the years where he's had really good targets per run as yards per out run has been awesome.
0:12He was as a rookie was a 2.0 yards per run in the next season.
0:121.76. The down year is about 1.26 1.37 this year so far 2.37 only 43 routes, but 2.37 yards per run for a running back.
0:12Allen 0.48. So when I talk about there being a gap, we're talking about a gap.
0:12We're talking about a 5x gap in terms of yards per route.
0:12Very meaningful. And then Allen's other seasons 0.85, 1.10.
0:12So again, his career high below Brees Hall's career low.
0:12This is an element of this backfield that does matter and will matter.
0:12And Brees Hall, I think, has got to be viewed more favorably and was in this draft.
0:12I think it was a good pick by Ryan to take him where he did.
0:12And then I took Allen about a half round later.
0:12Because I do think you can also make that bet on Allen similar to the way you were talking about.
0:12I think Price, which is like, you know, things could work.
0:12I think Allen's going to have a rushing role.
0:12I do feel pretty good about that. But maybe I'll be wrong on that.
0:12Maybe they'll just go all Hall. I don't know.
0:12But I feel like Allen's going to have. It would not be the first time that a team has an injury to a starter.
0:12Their backup looks really good. Everybody in the fantasy football community thinks that the backup has earned a bigger role.
0:12And then the team just says, nope, we're going right back to what we played a week one.
0:12It would not be the first time. It's not what I expect.
0:12It happened last year with Chuba Hubbard and Rico Dowdle.
0:12But then Chuba continued to struggle. And then they went back to Dowdle.
0:12And they were like, all right, we're actually going to go back to Dowdle.
0:12But yeah, that does. You're right. That does happen more often than we think.
0:12Any other final thoughts, takes? Blake Corum went between Hall and Allen.
0:12That was you. Yeah. Great pick, I thought. But he's gotten a lot more valuable as the Rams have gotten.
0:12I should have taken Ramondre there. That one, I forgot about Ramondre.
0:12But the Rams? I like the Corum pick too.
0:12Super 13 personnel heavy last week. And I think both.
0:12I took Kyron in round two. So I think Kyron still has a lot of value.
0:12But I think both backs are going to be quite valuable.
0:12As they kind of become a run. Like an RB based offense.
0:12And then Puka. And then tight ends. That's what it seems like they're going to be.
0:12Yeah, it's the strength of the team. I mean, they've both played.
0:12Kyron's having the best season of his career as a.
0:12He might actually be having one as a fantasy player too.
0:12Maybe he hasn't beat out 2023. But from a real life perspective.
0:12I used to be like kind of a Kyron hater.
0:12And I've been more impressed by him as a real life running back than I've ever been this season.
0:12I think he's been phenomenal. And that's to take nothing away from.
0:12Like Horum. Who I think is a fantastic rusher.
0:12And I hope he gets his own backfield one day.
0:12Because I think he's really, really, really good. So I think that they're right to be leaning into these two backs.
0:12They have two really, really good backs. And their wide receiver two currently is not a mum field.
0:12Any other final thoughts? No, I'm good. Good show.
0:12Long show. Not our longest show. But good show.
0:12And yeah, I had a ton of fun doing this draft.
0:12I know that we've analyzed some of the picks.
0:12But I would strongly encourage anyone, if you enjoyed listening to this show, I believe that the episode, well, by the time
0:12that this is posted, the episode will certainly be up if it's not already.
0:12And go give that a watch or a listen.
0:12Because you'll hear, of course, way more picks than this.
0:12You'll get Ryan's great perspective. You'll get Jacob Sanderson's great perspective.
0:12So yeah, it's a fun episode. It was. My kind of last thought as you were saying that was maybe we could
0:12pick out a few interesting guys that we really like that were interesting where they went.
0:12Like I saw Jameson Williams. I took Jameson Williams.
0:12The listeners will be glad to know at 410.
0:12So he kind of went similar to where he's been, where he was going in the preseason.
0:12He went right behind. You took DJ Moore right before him at 409.
0:12Right behind DJ Moore, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, Garrett Wilson, Michael Wilson.
0:12Yeah, Michael Wilson went in there at 405. Luther Byrne, George Pickens were earlier in the round.
0:12Matthew Golden, you took at 304. One of the guys that we were in on in the preseason was fun to see how high you took him.
0:12Parker Washington to 12 was an interesting one. Your guy.
0:12Yeah, I thought it was a great pick. Your guy, Jalen Waddell, you refused to take and we were all waiting for you to take him.
0:12He goes 604 to, I believe, Gibbs. Yeah. Yeah.
0:12Yeah. And I'm sure he felt great about that.
0:12I think where he went is completely fine. I mean, like he's like he is still getting the like usage.
0:12It's just this offense is so broken that like, yeah, like I don't think he where he went is completely fine.
0:12But obviously, it's going to fall way, way, way, way short of my preseason expectations.
0:12That's for sure. You took Travis HN in at the 508.
0:12And then Judkins, I believe that was Gibbs at 509.
0:12Scadaboo at 511. To me, that was an interesting little range.
0:12I thought your HN pick was really interesting. They have, as you noted on the show, have had some real issues with the other Saints backs there.
0:12And so when he's healthy, he's probably like you said that their plan coming in clearly was to do a little bit of a committee.
0:12But when he's healthy, it's like more likely that he could be just the guy going forward.
0:12Yeah. I think this is like they were dating.
0:12They were dating two people, one of them went on a trip.
0:12And then they had to spend all their time with the one person they were dating.
0:12And they were like, I don't want to date this person anymore.
0:12This sucks. Like, I'm going to go exclusive with this other person as soon as they come back from their vacation.
0:12Does that metaphor work on you or no? No.
0:12Gen Z is weird to me. You guys are weird.
0:12Dating multiple people thing. It's just weird, man. For the record.
0:12I could keep it straight if it was me.
0:12Non-exclusive dating. I'm not advocating for cheating. I've been very monogamous at all times.
0:12I don't know how to do the navigating multiple.
0:12You guys are weird. What other one stuck out to you as you look at this board before we go?
0:12Jeremiah Love 404 was a steal. We both think he should.
0:12Jeremiah Love 404 is a potential steal. I'm fascinated to see what the market thinks.
0:12I just got off. Right before we record this, I do the DFS show each week with Davis.
0:12And he was trying to tell me that Jeremiah Love is not going to be owned in DFS this week against Dallas.
0:12And he's already practicing. He's going to play. I was like, really?
0:12And he's cheap too. And I was like, well, if he's not going to be owned, I'm going to play more DFS lineups than I've ever played.
0:12Because I want to be ahead of this. And I don't know.
0:12Maybe Davis is going to be wrong. Maybe he is going to be super owned.
0:12This is not a DFS podcast. But anyways. No, I love the take because Tyler Algier stumbling and like them not getting what they wanted out of him.
0:12So they had to play more Bam Knight. I just keep writing in the ceiling signals every week.
0:12It's good for Jeremiah Love. Like it has to be right.
0:12Yeah. So I'm so excited for Jeremiah Love this week.
0:12Come on, man. This one is not a now or never because it's never now or never when we're talking about the third overall pick.
0:12But I prefer now. He wasn't even that hurt.
0:12They wanted to get him fully healthy. They've done it.
0:12But every time they've put him in, they've overused him.
0:12Like I don't think they're going to ease him back in.
0:12They're going to. And they've thrown to him when they've used him limited ways.
0:12They've like made it a point to use him in the past game.
0:12He's going to catch like five balls and he's going to get like 12 carries against the Cowboys defense.
0:12Yeah. The broadcasters were saying things like I've been impressed with Damian Pierce tonight.
0:12And I was like, I'm not. I'm not. But I understand that it's easy to average four yards to carry against the Cowboys.
0:12I mean, I was just running in sludge. When we had the Bucky Irving conversation, I was basically just throwing out that
0:12game because I was like, you know, I mean, he wasn't playing against a real NFL defense that week.
0:12So it doesn't count. Barkley could barely. He was like one hopping his way around the field like Tigger.
0:12And he was averaging seven yards per carry. Tigger.
0:12Yeah. He had seven carries for 60 something yards.
0:12It was absurd. And he couldn't move. He was like, he was like actively limping and like running off the field in pain.
0:12And he was getting seven yards carry. Like, it was.
0:12It's. Yeah. So I think love. You can do what you want with your lineups listeners.
0:12But where I have Jeremiah Love, assuming he is active and gets in his full practice, whatever else, he will be in
0:12all my lineups wherever I've got him. I'm excited to welcome him back to my squads.
0:12You can ride with me or not. But I, to me, the like panic about Jeremiah Love, I understand frustration about his injuries.
0:12That's like obviously natural. And I'm frustrated too, because he clearly has not scored up to the level that you paid for him in drafts.
0:12But the panic over like his outlook for his career, whether he'll ever be startable at any point this season, to me is bananas.
0:12And I'm really, really excited for him to be back.
0:12Mike Evans, another one that's banged up. They're going on by hope is that he'll be able to return.
0:12He went 407 here. I liked that. He's been really, really good per route.
0:12That's a risky pick. But if he if he has like should have been in round two upside, if he's just healthy off the buy and stays healthy.
0:12Yeah, he's been good. He's up there. Swift at 211.
0:12You mentioned that before. Did you have a take on that?
0:12I think that was a good pick. What was that?
0:12I think it's fine. I think he's more with the Howard, Bucky, Brown, Warren, Jacobs guys.
0:12But I think he's like it would be very fair to put him at the front of that tier.
0:12Josh Allen, 301. And you were Ryan that was upset about that.
0:12Ryan because he wanted to take him. Ryan was upset about that.
0:12Yeah, you. I mean, I guess I think that's probably a little high.
0:12I think it was a little early. Yeah, really.
0:12Lamar when it's all right. Lamar. Lamar. I mean, Jalen Waddle was off the board.
0:12You took Lamar at 605. I was apparently refusing to take quarterback.
0:12So that's my bad. But yeah, Lamar. That gap between 301 to 605, Josh Allen to Lamar is probably too wide.
0:12Right? Yeah. I think so. I mean, who knows with Lamar if he'll even be healthy this week.
0:12Maybe he'll decide not to play again. Who knows?
0:12No. He's playing this week. He's playing this week.
0:12I need this. I need to see him and Flowers in the shootout against the Bills.
0:12I want that. They finally put a good game during the ship cast.
0:12We're not just watching Dolphins, Jets, and Browns, Titans.
0:12You'll finally get a fun game to write about in part one of Stealing Signals.
0:12Let's go. Come on. Let's just have. Let's come on, NFL.
0:12Give us a 38-35 Ravens Bills back and forth.
0:12Part one of Stealing Signals. The East divisions that play in that time slot are terrible.
0:12It's the best noon slate we've had in a long time.
0:12We're getting Ravens Bills. We're getting Cardinals Cowboys. Why did you call it a noon slate?
0:12It's one Eastern. Because I grew up in Winnipeg.
0:12I grew up in Winnipeg. Because I know your Pacific Coast time.
0:12I'm like, it's one Eastern, and it's 10 a.m.
0:12for you like it is for me. So where did you get noon?
0:12You're about to be 11 next week for me.
0:12I'm in this weird spot. BC has gone away from daylight savings times.
0:12So we're not going to be in the same time zone anymore next week.
0:12What? It's going to be so confusing. We live like three hours apart.
0:12We're going to be in different time zones. That's stupid.
0:12But I also want it to be 11. So I would prefer that.
0:12No, but it's not going to be for you.
0:12It's still going to be 10 for you. I know.
0:12That's what I'm saying. I prefer that we have the same laws as you.
0:12Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Oh, Lad McConkie, 503. Daylight savings time.
0:12I think that's. Oh, Lad McConkie. We should go.
0:12That's a good. Lad McConkie, 503. Right after Carnell Tate.
0:12Jalen Coker. I think Coker was a good pick at 501.
0:12I argued at the time when Jacob took him, Jacob Gibbs, that maybe he should have been closer to where I took Ted Rowe and McMillan at 307.
0:12I mean, I know there shouldn't be a round and a half gap between those two guys.
0:12I think they're both studs and it's a two man.
0:12They're correlated. Like if McMillan's hitting at 307, I'm right there.
0:12Then he's probably hitting on Coker at 501. But McConkie, 503, I think they got to do something.
0:12We've talked about this. They got to do something.
0:12It's going to be funny when they're just as bad this week.
0:12It's going to be. Yep. Well, that'll do it.
0:12On that note. Any final thoughts? We love you guys.
0:12Love you guys. We never talked about a Patreon episode.
0:12So I guess we're probably not doing one this week.
0:12Probably not this week. Maybe let's soft target next week.
0:12We were soft targeting this week. We failed to get on top of it.
0:12We did an extra pod with the CBS guys together.
0:12Yes. Next week. Next week we are. Okay. I'll say not just soft, but like.
0:12Okay, we're committing. No, not hard, but like medium targeting.
0:12We're medium targeting. Okay. I'm good with medium target.
0:12It's growing more likely. Medium target. Appreciate you guys.
0:12Thanks for sticking around with us. We will talk to you next week.
0:12Later.

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